As mentioned before, this is most likely a physical mutation of our skin and physique. A very visible change, going by A.
Even assuming you're correct on your baseless assuming that the mutation will change protag's skin color: 1) henge, 2) physical disguises, 3) magical disguises, 4) does it even matter? Karui presence in the follow-up seems to indicate that it doesn't. And she doesn't benefit from being born and raised as the latest prodigy of one of the most famous clans in the village...
The "stacks with reinforcement of clothes" is much less powerful and versatile than stacking Self-Reinforcement. Clothes only enhance your endurance, not your speed, reflexes, and senses.
and the mutation enhancement is much better than magic reinforcement (which, i'll point out, we don't even as a skill) which even in fate canon is hardly a notable skill to begin with.
Counterpoint: How many heroic spirits heavily rely on a weapon-type Noble Phantasm?
Except we're in Naruto-verse, not Fate-verse.
Unless you want to spend years developing a way to summon a Heroic Spirit here or heavens forbid transforming our protag in some kind of FGO demi-servant abomination, heroic spirits are entirely irrelevant.
 
  1. As mentioned before, this is most likely a physical mutation of our skin and physique. A very visible change, going by A.
Coul you elaborate on this ? I fell like like I am missing something since A looks pretty normal for a menber of the cloud village, so I don't see what point to obivious physical mutation.


[X] Nachtigall

Anyway still suporting this vote since is the only one getting the powerfull mutation and the only arguments against getting the strongest spear seen to be from people afraid to lose things we aren't going to lose, we know for a long time elemental magecraft attacks are useless compared to ninjutsu so may as well trade something we are never going to use for a power boost.
 
Konohamaru and Hanabi as our teammates? All of my yes.

Also, making Hanabi Hinata's younger twin is a brilliant move. This way, their situation directly mirrors Hiashi's and Hizashi's, thus making Hiashi's inner conflict regarding the heir status much more on point. I'm curious to see how his attitude as well as the twins' circumstances and relationship have been influenced by this change.

On sealing: Summoning is by far my most preferred option. Creating connections to other realms is thematically the closest thing to the Second Magic the setting has, after all. I am not really fond of weapon creation as it adds to the issue Jiraiya has pointed out previously - we are spreading ourselves too thin, and this is yet another pretty much entirely new field to rediscover and research; though on the other hand, if you ain't cheating, you aren't trying. If we had straight up picked Aacha's trait near the beginning, I would have been all for taking this. As is, though, I am more inclined to go with Mito's journals, honestly. On top of being a generally useful bit of knowledge considering the setting, Bijuu sealing might open up the possibility of sealing certain other spiritual entities in containers, human *cough*Demi-Servants*cough* or otherwise *cough*Class Cards*cough*. More realistically, I am hopeful this might help us figure out a way for Nonō to interact with other people.

On mutations: It is not even the explicit drawbacks specifically that bother me but rather, the underlying implications for Rin's mentality in choosing to give up a branch of magecraft. I am ideologically opposed to taking up any of these perks on that basis.


Finally, some comments on the currently utilized questions:
--[X] Include a relatively unimportant question she'll lie about (e.g. due to embarassment) to get a baseline on whether she's a good liar.
Embarrassment might not be that good an example. What gets Rin embarrassed is a farcry from what it would take to get Karin to shy away from answering honestly.

--[X] Have you ever seen Orochimaru before today?
It is too easy to answer this truthfully if, for example, she has only ever communicated with Orochimaru via proxy. I would make it "encountered or been in communication with" instead of seen.
--[X] Is there any other group you work for?
The phrasing is also specific enough that there is leeway for a truthful answer that belies the spirit of the question. Working for an individual rather than a group, working with a group in her own interests that do not necessarily align with that group, etc. I would suggest,
"Excluding us, are there any other groups or individuals that you are involved with, in contact with, or hold loyalty to?"
--[X] (Assuming she lacks training) Who taught you about the healing bite, then?
This phrasing is quite undiplomatic - that "then" at the end shifts the question's tone, tainting it with an excessive amount of suspicion; at the same time, it adds nothing to the question and can be simply dropped for the sake of cordiality.

There is also no need to omit this question even if she has shinobi training - an explicit answer is always better than an implicit one, and it gives us potentially important information.
--[X] Where did you want to go before we met you?
"Intend" may be a better option over "want" here. It is more to the point, and the two do not often overlap, though asking with the current phrasing can give Rin a better glimpse at Karin's personality.
--[X] Did you recognize or know about any of us before today?
This leaves the possibility of her being instructed about us just today. I would suggest "before our meeting" to close that gap.

I would also add the question, "Do you have seals, tattoos, or other notable marks aside from scars anywhere on your person?", though preferably at the end. If it turns out there is a seal on her, it may invalidate the previous questions to some degree, but if there is one and we ask about it immediately, it may leave the other questions unanswered at all.

Plan maybe a bit later.

even in fate canon is hardly a notable skill to begin with.
It is hardly notable because it is basic, not because it is useless. Additionally, magi are researchers, and reinforcement is a dead end in terms of research prospects, and those magi who focus on combat to any degree all have some form of self-strengthening magecraft, even if it is not even reinforcement per se (i.e. Bazett's runes, Svin's beast magecraft).

we know for a long time elemental magecraft attacks are useless compared to ninjutsu so may as well trade something we are never going to use for a power boost.
Well... As the latest Lostbelt has confirmed, magecraft can become ridiculously powerful in the right circumstances - Kirschtaria makes a magic circle in the sky by moving stars to where he needs them and can casually trigger meteor showers, simply because his magecraft is well suited to the Greek Lostbelt's mana-rich Age of Gods environment.

That said, for the purpose of this quest, I am disinclined to argue the point as it is the author's prerogative to balance these things.
 
On mutations: It is not even the explicit drawbacks specifically that bother me but rather, the underlying implications for Rin's mentality in choosing to give up a branch of magecraft. I am ideologically opposed to taking up any of these perks on that basis.
How is she giving up a branch of magecraft again ?
On the spear she can still use elemental on gems and the shield only blocks reinforcing the body, while limiting neither entirely blocks her from using or researching any magecraft, she woud still have reinforcement and and elemental attacks, she would just specialie away from using it in a certain way.
 
[X] Nachtigall

Kinda iffy on losing a potential branch of magecraft, but chakra is all but guaranteed to be superior for offensive elemental spells, so it's probably not a huge loss? I'm actually more concerned about the ??? bonuses; it's difficult to predict what they might be, but my gut says the unaugmented bonus may be the best of the three mystery boxes. That's a risky bet to take, though, so lacking more information I'll go with the guaranteed power boost.
 
Last edited:
if you ain't cheating, you aren't trying. If we had straight up picked Aacha's trait near the beginning, I would have been all for taking this

You did get Archer's trait eventually though - fortunately for you, it wasn't the only way to get it. How do you think you got Eye of the Mind (though, in your case, it's False rather than True) and good enough at ranged combat to keep Danzo at bay?

On mutations: It is not even the explicit drawbacks specifically that bother me but rather, the underlying implications for Rin's mentality in choosing to give up a branch of magecraft. I am ideologically opposed to taking up any of these perks on that basis.

Rin doesn't really know what she is giving up IC, so I'm not going to consider that as OOC behavior.
...BTW, I'm glad I made each option just attractive and unattractive enough to spark a debate and votes that prefer each of them. That is what I'm usually aiming for when it comes to new powers.
 
[X] Plan Ferian
- [X] (Sealing) Bijuu and Jinchuuriki
- [X] (Sealing) Contracts / Space-Time
-[X] (Mutation) Nothing
-[X] (Questions for Karin)
--[X] Use S+++ diplomacy for rapport with Karin
--[X] Are you alright with me asking a few questions, even if they might be harsh or hurtful?
--[X] Include a relatively unimportant question she'll lie about to get a baseline on whether she's a good liar.
--[X] Have you ever encountered or been in communication with Orochimaru before today?
--[X] Is it correct that you are from Kusa and hold absolutely no loyalty to them, nor to any single person in Kusa?
--[X] Excluding us, are there any other groups or individuals that you are involved with, in contact with, or hold loyalty to?
--[X] Do you have any shinobi training?
--[X] What about infiltration training?
--[X] Who taught you about the healing bite?
--[X] Where did you want to go before we met you?
--[X] Did you recognize or know about any of us before our meeting today?
--[X] What are your intentions towards our village?
--[X] Towards me and Naruto?
--[X] Are you planning to betray our trust?
--[X] Did someone 'help' you flee that might have arranged for you to meet either Orochimaru or us?
--[X] Do you have seals, tattoos, or other notable marks aside from scars anywhere on your person?

So, to reiterate, Bijuu sealing might pave the way for eventually allowing our friendly neighborhood ghost to interact with the world in some meaningful fashion. Storing basically energy in human and inanimate containers is also thematically similar enough to Tohsaka's magecraft specialties to warrant Rin's attention. (Reminder that jewel magecraft is the shortest way to reach for the Second Magic.)
Similar reasoning applies to space/time and contracts - summon realms are the closest thing to dimensional travel the setting has, which might lead to insights about the Second Magic. It is also the most generally useful option of the bunch, imo, as summons are one of the best force multipliers available in the setting; not getting some if we get an opportunity would be wasteful. (That said, I can be convinced to postpone this until a time we actually have the option of getting a summon contract. Throwing swords is fine, too.)

I've also included my suggested corrections to the questions' phrasing since no further comments on them have been made. If anyone sees any issues with them, please tell me.

You did get Archer's trait eventually though - fortunately for you, it wasn't the only way to get it. How do you think you got Eye of the Mind (though, in your case, it's False rather than True) and good enough at ranged combat to keep Danzo at bay?
Oh, I know; it is why I've quoted that trait's name in my post (copy pasted straight from Rin's profile page, in fact). But the difference between getting it originally and getting it later is the difference between a chosen primary focus and the issue of spreading ourselves too thin by branching out.

And that ties in with the main reason I am opposed to branching out into weapon creation. It is potent and viable, sure; but it also carries with it secondary requirements, such as forging the weapons, whether via techniques native to the Elemental Nations or alchemy, maintaining them (kunai and shuriken are one thing, but more complex and exotic weapons will require more complex and exotic maintenance), and using the weapons, assuming Rin will be the one using them.

If we were focusing on becoming a full-time support (something I'd be all for, by the way - balancing our time between clan head duties, weapon forging or medic rounds, and magecraft research, and leaving the fighting to other, maybe more qualified people, such as Naruto), it would be fine; it would be manageable. But we are not. Thus far, we have been steadily going for being the one in the midst of action. Branching out into a dedicated support function such as weapon creation seems... counter-intuitive, at best.

Also, even if reaching for results in that field does not end up being the major time sink as I am expecting it to, glossing over those secondary requirements in such a manner does not sit well with me - those are time-consuming tasks that require a high degree of proficiency, and a high degree of proficiency requires time and effort put into improving one's skill; simply producing better, or even just competitive weapons without a significant commitment would be, in a way, looking down on the people who dedicate their lives to that job.

I... honestly don't get why people are so eagerly jumping onto that option. It really sounds like a far greater commitment than any of the alternatives, and does not go in line with our current progression, too, since we have (ostensibly) been focusing on personal prowess over tool use.

Rin doesn't really know what she is giving up IC, so I'm not going to consider that as OOC behavior.
...BTW, I'm glad I made each option just attractive and unattractive enough to spark a debate and votes that prefer each of them. That is what I'm usually aiming for when it comes to new powers.
This does change things, yes. I'll have to actually consider the merits and demerits of the mutations now. :V

That joke aside, yes, it is indeed a very well-designed set of choices, though it does carry with it the issue of detracting from the rest of the plan to some degree. I think that kind of choice would be best posed as a separate vote since that would allow players to focus on discussing it without reservation or detriment to the other choices presented at the same time. It's understandable that with the pace and scope of the updates offering it as a separate vote is difficult but it is nonetheless something to consider for the future.

we know for a long time elemental magecraft attacks are useless compared to ninjutsu so may as well trade something we are never going to use for a power boost.
Kinda iffy on losing a potential branch of magecraft, but chakra is all but guaranteed to be superior for offensive elemental spells
...Ugh, I think I'll bite after all.

It really depends. In raw firepower, yeah, it may be easier to get a higher yield via chakra techniques. In terms of control and versatility, though... Is there a Jutsu that directly burns out a target's heart? No need for aiming, no opportunity to dodge except getting out of range before the spell is triggered. Fire magecraft can easily be used to that effect (Touko's use of Ansuz in Kara no Kyoukai part 4). In the Nasuverse, those kind of applications are rarely seen since anything you'd use such a direct elemental spell on would have the capability to resist that kind of spell. This is not the case in the Elemental Nations so offensive elemental spells have an unoccupied niche that they could fill.
 
Last edited:
Finally, some comments on the currently utilized questions
Thanks for those. It's always hard to find loopholes in your own plans. A second perspective is very appreciated.

I trust Rin's perceptiveness to correctly assess what Karin would be embarassed by, but other than that, I like all of your suggestions.

@Gnarker, @Valkhir, @Zaratustra, @Sapient_Ham, @Captain Hunt, I just wanted to notify you that I included Ferian's edit to the questions block in my plan.


my gut says the unaugmented bonus may be the best of the three mystery boxes.
Might be, might not be. After all, AoMythology probably wouldn't add the mutation mechanic if he didn't want to see it in use, which introduces a slight bias towards at least one of them offering a net benefit.

Coul you elaborate on this? I feel like like I am missing something since A looks pretty normal for a member of the cloud village, so I don't see what points to obvious physical mutation.
Article:
A's most impressive and renowned trait was his extremely durable body, earning the name, the "strongest shield"

The mutation offers a pale imitation of the Third Raikage's endurance, but said durability was due to "his extremely durable body". If our skin gains the toughness of A's, then it stands to reason that the mutation would likely also include visual skin changes. That doesn't necessarily mean his skin tone, it could just be the consistency, but do we really want to take the risk?

secondary requirements, such as forging the weapons, whether via techniques native to the Elemental Nations or alchemy, maintaining them (kunai and shuriken are one thing, but more complex and exotic weapons will require more complex and exotic maintenance)
There's no reason Rin would have to forge weapons herself, there are blacksmiths for that. Do you really think Minato personally crafted each of the kunai he applied the Hiraishin seal to, when he could just order them made to his specifications?
Also, the legendary blades of the Seven Swordsmen can't require exotic maintenance since their wielders know nothing about methods the Uchiha used in their creation. If even those masterworks don't need it, I doubt Rin would have to worry about loosing all that much time to maintenance.

Fire magecraft can easily be used to that effect (Touko's use of Ansuz in Kara no Kyoukai part 4).
Easily? Futhark runes are something many magi study for their entire lives without ever getting to that level.
Bazett's use of runic sorcery for enhancement was a large part of what made her an elite enforcer. As for Touko, according to her wiki article Ansuz is one of only three 'primeval runes' that she ever learned to replicate, despite being "one of the most powerful magi in the world".

Also, you seem to forget that we only sacrifice "directly offensive Elemental Magecraft" - indirect methods are still possible, so the field of attack vectors we loose and can't replicate with jutsu is incredibly narrow.
 
Inserted tally

I will keep the voting open for a bit longer - maybe until Tuesday?
Adhoc vote count started by AoMythology on Feb 2, 2020 at 7:41 PM, finished with 28 posts and 13 votes.

  • [X] Plan Chakra Boost
    -[X] (Mutation) The Strongest Spear
    -[X] (Sealing) Making/Enhancing Weapons (Uchiha specialty)
    -[X] (Sealing) Bijuu and Jinchuuriki
    -[X] (Questions for Karin)
    --[X] Use S+++ diplomacy for rapport with Karin
    --[X] Are you alright with me asking a few questions, even if they might be harsh or hurtful?
    --[X] Include a relatively unimportant question she'll lie about (e.g. due to embarassment) to get a baseline on whether she's a good liar.
    --[X] Have you ever encountered or been in communication with Orochimaru before today?
    --[X] Is it correct that you are from Kusa and hold absolutely no loyalty to them, nor to any single person in Kusa?
    --[X] Excluding us, are there any other groups or individuals that you are involved with, in contact with, or hold loyalty to?
    --[X] Do you have any shinobi training?
    --[X] What about infiltration training?
    --[X] Who taught you about the healing bite?
    --[X] Where did you want to go before we met you?
    --[X] Did you recognize or know about any of us before our meeting today?
    --[X] What are your intentions towards our village?
    --[X] Towards me and Naruto?
    --[X] Are you planning to betray our trust?
    --[X] Did someone 'help' you flee that might have arranged for you to meet either Orochimaru or us?
    --[X] Do you have seals, tattoos, or other notable marks aside from scars anywhere on your person?
    [X] Plan Preserving Strengths
    -[X] (Mutation) Nothing
    -[X] (Sealing) Making/Enhancing Weapons (Uchiha specialty)
    -[X] (Sealing) Bijuu and Jinchuuriki
    -[X] (Questions for Karin)
    --[X] Use S+++ diplomacy for rapport with Karin
    --[X] Are you alright with me asking a few questions, even if they might be harsh or hurtful?
    --[X] Include a relatively unimportant question she'll lie about (e.g. due to embarassment) to get a baseline on whether she's a good liar.
    --[X] Have you ever seen Orochimaru before today?
    --[X] Is it correct that you are from Kusa and hold absolutely no loyalty to them, nor to any single person in Kusa?
    --[X] Is there any other group you work for?
    --[X] Do you have any shinobi training?
    --[X] What about infiltration training?
    --[X] (Assuming she lacks training) Who taught you about the healing bite, then?
    --[X] Where did you want to go before we met you?
    --[X] Did you recognize or know about any of us before today?
    --[X] What are your intentions towards our village?
    --[X] Towards me and Naruto?
    --[X] Are you planning to betray our trust?
    --[X] Did someone 'help' you flee that might have arranged for you to meet either Orochimaru or us?
    [X] Plan: What do you mean we can't get servants?
    -[X] (Sealing) Contracts / Space-Time
    -[X] (Sealing) Making/Enhancing Weapons (Uchiha specialty)
    -[X] (Mutation) Nothing
    -[X] (Questions for Karin)
    --[X] Use S+++ diplomacy for rapport with Karin
    --[X] Are you alright with me asking a few questions, even if they might be harsh or hurtful?
    --[X] Include a relatively unimportant question she'll lie about (e.g. due to embarassment) to get a baseline on whether she's a good liar.
    --[X] Have you ever seen Orochimaru before today?
    --[X] Is it correct that you are from Kusa and hold absolutely no loyalty to them, nor to any single person in Kusa?
    --[X] Is there any other group you work for?
    --[X] Do you have any shinobi training?
    --[X] What about infiltration training?
    --[X] (Assuming she lacks training) Who taught you about the healing bite, then?
    --[X] Where did you want to go before we met you?
    --[X] Did you recognize or know about any of us before today?
    --[X] What are your intentions towards our village?
    --[X] Towards me and Naruto?
    --[X] Are you planning to betray our trust?
    --[X] Did someone 'help' you flee that might have arranged for you to meet either Orochimaru or us?
    [x] plan for the future
    -[X] (Sealing) Bijuu and Jinchuuriki
    -[x] (Mutation) The Strongest Shield
    -[X] (Sealing) Contracts / Space-Time
    [X] Plan Ferian
    - [X] (Sealing) Bijuu and Jinchuuriki
    - [X] (Sealing) Contracts / Space-Time
    -[X] (Mutation) Nothing
    -[X] (Questions for Karin)
    --[X] Use S+++ diplomacy for rapport with Karin
    --[X] Are you alright with me asking a few questions, even if they might be harsh or hurtful?
    --[X] Include a relatively unimportant question she'll lie about to get a baseline on whether she's a good liar.
    --[X] Have you ever encountered or been in communication with Orochimaru before today?
    --[X] Is it correct that you are from Kusa and hold absolutely no loyalty to them, nor to any single person in Kusa?
    --[X] Excluding us, are there any other groups or individuals that you are involved with, in contact with, or hold loyalty to?
    --[X] Do you have any shinobi training?
    --[X] What about infiltration training?
    --[X] Who taught you about the healing bite?
    --[X] Where did you want to go before we met you?
    --[X] Did you recognize or know about any of us before our meeting today?
    --[X] What are your intentions towards our village?
    --[X] Towards me and Naruto?
    --[X] Are you planning to betray our trust?
    --[X] Did someone 'help' you flee that might have arranged for you to meet either Orochimaru or us?
    --[X] Do you have seals, tattoos, or other notable marks aside from scars anywhere on your person?
 
[X] Plan: What do you mean we can't get servants?
-[X] (Sealing) Contracts / Space-Time
-[X] (Sealing) Making/Enhancing Weapons (Uchiha specialty)
-[X] (Mutation) Nothing
-[X] (Questions for Karin)
--[X] Use S+++ diplomacy for rapport with Karin
--[X] Are you alright with me asking a few questions, even if they might be harsh or hurtful?
--[X] Include a relatively unimportant question she'll lie about (e.g. due to embarassment) to get a baseline on whether she's a good liar.
--[X] Have you ever seen Orochimaru before today?
--[X] Is it correct that you are from Kusa and hold absolutely no loyalty to them, nor to any single person in Kusa?
--[X] Is there any other group you work for?
--[X] Do you have any shinobi training?
--[X] What about infiltration training?
--[X] (Assuming she lacks training) Who taught you about the healing bite, then?
--[X] Where did you want to go before we met you?
--[X] Did you recognize or know about any of us before today?
--[X] What are your intentions towards our village?
--[X] Towards me and Naruto?
--[X] Are you planning to betray our trust?
--[X] Did someone 'help' you flee that might have arranged for you to meet either Orochimaru or us?

Consolidating with SB vote
 
I think some elements of this vote are a poor fit for a plan-based voting system, to be honest. Plans are good when every element is linked and interdependent, and that isn't really the case here. Each section is functionally separate.

I have a slight preference for the Spacetime sealing specialization over Bijuu & Jinchuuriki, since it synergizes with the Kaleidoscope and Rin's unique Sharingan affinity. (And while it's a bit of a longshot, such a specialization could eventually lead to the Hiraishin later if Jiraiya and Kakashi notice the talent.) However, the voting format means I can't express support for that without also taking away support from my favored mutation option, or splitting the vote. What do?
 
Last edited:
I think some elements of this vote are a poor fit for a plan-based voting system, to be honest. Plans are good when every element is linked and interdependent, and that isn't really the case here. Each section is functionally separate.

I have a slight preference for the Spacetime sealing specialization over Bijuu & Jinchuuriki, since it synergizes with the Kaleidoscope and Rin's unique Sharingan affinity. (And while its a bit of a longshot, such a specialization could eventually lead to the Hiraishin later if Jiraiya and Kakashi notice the talent.) However, the voting format means I can't express support for that without also taking away support from my favored mutation option, or splitting the vote. What do?
I just gave up on the other options and monotopic vote the mutations.
 
I think some elements of this vote are a poor fit for a plan-based voting system, to be honest. Plans are good when every element is linked and interdependent, and that isn't really the case here. Each section is functionally separate.

I have a slight preference for the Spacetime sealing specialization over Bijuu & Jinchuuriki, since it synergizes with the Kaleidoscope and Rin's unique Sharingan affinity. (And while it's a bit of a longshot, such a specialization could eventually lead to the Hiraishin later if Jiraiya and Kakashi notice the talent.) However, the voting format means I can't express support for that without also taking away support from my favored mutation option, or splitting the vote. What do?

It's too late for me to change the voting, sorry. Hindsight is 20/20. :( Note that you can always pick up a branch of Sealing that wasn't chosen now, later.

Edit: by the way, you don't really need the Hiraishin; the Second Magic is OP like that.
 
Last edited:
[X] veekie

I don't like the idea of sacrificing our Magecraft ability, and I agree that staying well-rounded is rather important.
 
I am utterly confused as to which of veekie's plans people are voting - the original one, or the one he's voting for now. 😑

On a related note, @AoMythology Can you post overall preliminary tallies in the future, or at least post both results on each forum? As it is, I have some trouble discerning the real state of the votes, and unless they visit both threads and compare the tallies, someone following one thread won't even know of the plans that have been only featured in the other.

On an unrelated note,

@veekie @STOP Would either of you be willing to consider corrections to the questions' phrasing? They seem to have been thrown to the wayside in the wake of the discussion on future prospects but they are nonetheless the part of the vote that carries the most immediate - and potentially important, - effects.
 
I'm consolidating into the SB vote. Rather have bad questions than the wrong mutation
Just because the inaccuracy irks me, I feel the need to point out that that is actually STOP's plan; Brom even credits him in his post on SB. I guess I'll just have to hold on to hope he responds before the vote is closed...
 
Back
Top