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- Oblivion
I don't think the problem was the writers budget so much as the costs for adding Hawk, Dove, and Donna Troy eating up budget that should have been used to better establish the core four members of the team.
Titans DC - The Edge strikes back
- Thread starter Aussiehawker
- Start date
- TV
- Location
- Just passing through.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So, by focusing on creating a big universe, creating plot hooks for more franchises, they ended neglecting the main characters of the show?
That's so DC it hurts.
Didn't the same thing happened with Universal's Dark Universe?
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- The Frigid North
Psychic pseudoscience which is invariably bastardized from eastern cosmology. Steeping Raven deeper into (actual!) Hindu or Buddhist concepts and ideas instead of new-agey dogshit dressed up with a goth paint job can only be a plus.
But of course no one is ever interested in making something new and different, but faithful to the original spirit. No one ever wants to put in the effort, whether it be through makeup and costuming in Starfire's specific case or the writing in general for the show, so they settle for zero effort diversity pandering that lets them lump genuine criticism together with the hordes of raging nerd toxicity and pretend they did nothing wrong.
Which sucks because zero effort diversity pandering often results in perpetuating harmful attitudes and stereotypes.
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- Oblivion
That's my guess at least.
Because for the same amount of money they spent hiring an actress to play Donna troy and doing all the costuming and story for the character they very likely could have given Anna the full Gamora treatment and possibly even Beast Boy along side her.
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- Somewhere
I was saying that using any truly culture-specific stuff on Raven would be wrong, since she's not from Earth. (Same with Starfire actually). Doesn't her character actually predate the goth phenomenon? 1980?
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- The Frigid North
I could totally be wrong, but the goth scene as we would see it started in the eighties and crystallized throughout the 90s. I mean, Death from Sandman didn't come from nowhere.
Also, even if she's not human her powerset, and significant bits of her look throughout the years have been influenced/inspired by new age mysticism, often crammed into an Abrahamic paradigm to avoid the wrath of moral guardians, or simply because the writers liked the names and concepts enough to appropriate them without any depth.
The 2000s cartoon was guilty of this as well, and that version of Raven is the one most people would claim familiarity with.
Any time you see a white dude with magic powers levitating in a yoga position, chanting, or calling on the power of entities with nigh unpronouncable names, all of which Raven has done, that's new age appropriation at work.
So making her Indian, or making Azerath more Indian flavoured, provided its done with a sensitive touch and an eye for quality over, as I called it, base diversity pandering, makes sense, provides a unique twist on the character, and opens up storytelling opportunities that wouldn't otherwise exist.
WhoAmEye
Bunker-Dwelling Cryptid
- Location
- Vault Birb
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Could have sworn for Superman it was more the radiation than the light that gave him powersThebreath's through her skinabsorbs sunlight defense doesn't work when we have this guy with the same thing going on.
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- Somewhere
Ummm.... Chanting and unpronounceable names could be from any number of things. Unless the Christian monks somehow stole chanting from India.
[Whispers gently into your ear.] Old comics are not in fact sacred.
I am not, and never will be, a fan of substantially-clothed Tamaraneans outside of very specific circumstances.
That isn't the point I was making as the fact that I posted art that isn't from old comics already. Let me put this simply.
A good reason for Starfire to not wear much.
Tamaraneans don't have a nudity taboo so many of them go around wearing every little but they can wear whatever they want.
A bad reason for Starfire to not wear much
Tamaraneans absorb sunlight through their skin so if they wear to much clothing they will lose their super powers.
The second reason is actively taking away things from Starfire character and her culture simply to give writers cover for having her mostly naked. Starfire being mostly naked should be a choice for her not a medical condition.
Mind you most comic writers and artists are hilariously horrible with female characters having no-sexualized nudity but adding in a in universe excuse for why they can't wear cloths generally makes it worse.
- Location
- Poland
potato-poteto really.
The Englanderish
Schrödinger's Kuudere Kitty Caliph(a)
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- Califat de Chats
Ok cool, but I'm not the one who made the statement about sun exposure. So maybe could you not lump me in with that?
I do not prefer 'Tamaraneans wear very little due to whatever plot device enhancing their power'. I prefer 'Tamaraneans wear very little because that's just how they are as a culture'.
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- The Old Dominion
God just watching this trailer makes me want watch the 1966 batman show, batman the animated series, superman the animated series, the Justice league cartoon, watch the fleischer superman cartoons and listen to the old superman radio show to cleanse my mind of whatever it was I just watched.
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- California
On the subject of the Starfire actress being black--use the Gamora method if you want an alien. Until reading this thread, when I looked up that actress to see her without the makeup, I did not know that she was black. This is a good thing. Not due to me disliking black actresses, but because she was so totally in the role and the makeup was done well enough that I did not even consider what ethnicity she was; all I really saw was an alien character, which was what I came to see. Obviously big budget movies have a higher budget for such things, but half-assing something and blaming your budget isn't a sign of great artistic integrity.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
Why is a human looking alien having some of the physical characteristics of black people worse then them not? It's a fucking human alien either way.
WhoAmEye
Bunker-Dwelling Cryptid
- Location
- Vault Birb
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think the point he was trying to make is that he could not even begin to guess the ethnicity of the actress, which was a good thing. Focusing on the positives, and not saying there's anything negative about having characteristics.
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- California
I'm sorry if it seemed like I was saying that they shouldn't have physical characteristics or black people. What I meant was that a great performer/costume department should have me thinking of the character, not the actor behind it much. If they can mix the actor and the character well, so much the better.
Cyrus 21
Kamen Rider/Spirit of Chaos
- Location
- Canterlot
What Dark Universe? Tom Cruise killed that franchise in one movie.
Excellent choices, and great choices for Edge cures.
DracoDracul
Bigender Communist
- Location
- Austin
- Pronouns
- She/They
I don't know the second movie in the series managed to win best picture, and with letting Del Toro make his passion project they might be able to cajole him into righting the ship. Oh, right Universal passed on that project, so Fox made it instead with Not!Gilman.
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- Poland
I was with you until you tried to turn it into another scapegoating of diversity. It's pathetic.
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- The Frigid North
Excuse me?! When the fuck did I ever say diversity was a bad thing?! I said zero effort diversity pandering is bad! It gets you idiotic shit like Mass Effect Andromeda and Ghostbusters 2016! I said in my next goddamn post that handling diversity and cultural imagery requires a sensitive touch and an eye for quality. Both things that the entertainment industry is sorely lacking, I might add!
To say nothing about the fact that I'm describing a very real "never my fault" attitude that's become widespread as of late to shut down legitimate criticism. Maybe you'd have picked up on that if your reading comprehension wasn't so shitty.
Edit: And Ghost In The Shell 2017. Can't forget that steaming pile of awfulness. It'll always burn me that Power Rangers 2017 lost out to that garbage fire.
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Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
I literally don't get why these two get brought up in regards to bad diversity.
Andromeda sucked because they had 18 fucking months to finish the game without a proper roadmap and a lot of features (like random worldgen) being dropped as well as a lack of time in ironing out the story. Ghostbusters 2016 is eh because of jokes going on too long and the reason why it gets that bad of a rep instead of being a mediocre/bad film was because GamerGaters and other sexist shitheads made a big deal out of it.
The way I see it, when a product has "diversity", morons on the Internet point out it sucks because of diversity instead of a plethora of actual legitimate issues that occurred during production.
Andromeda sucked because they had 18 fucking months to finish the game without a proper roadmap and a lot of features (like random worldgen) being dropped as well as a lack of time in ironing out the story. Ghostbusters 2016 is eh because of jokes going on too long and the reason why it gets that bad of a rep instead of being a mediocre/bad film was because GamerGaters and other sexist shitheads made a big deal out of it.
The way I see it, when a product has "diversity", morons on the Internet point out it sucks because of diversity instead of a plethora of actual legitimate issues that occurred during production.
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- The Frigid North
Probably because Mass Effect Andromeda is patently guilty of lesbian fetishization and gay erasure to say nothing of how they badly blundered the trans representation. The patches were just slapping a bandage on a wound that had already been given more than enough time to fester. Yeah, there's a lot of dumbasses who say the game was ruined by "SJWs" but I can't think of a single one of my friends, IRL or on the interwebs (edit: forgot to mention many of them are liberals and queer), who had anything positive to say on that front. And the sheer gall of simply patching in, or out, sexual orientation and harmful dialogue makes my blood boil. No artistic or political integrity, which is a damn shame because Bioware has a storied history of liberal leaning inclusiveness in their games, which made Andromeda even more of a slap in the face.
And as for Ghostbusters 2016, the fact that absolutely no one thought for a second that Patty might be a bit stereotypical is baffling in the extreme. Then again, tokenism is rampant throughout Hollywood, so I wouldn't be surprised if Leslie Jones just put up with it for a paycheck and held her breath for Get Out/Black Panther to maybe change some things.
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From my experience it is the other way around - idiots trying to scapegoat bad things as fault of diversity or making assinine, farfetched "reviews" bashing diverse works for nonsensical but hypocritical reasons only to play the victim when someone points put they make no sense and acusse them of using diverdity as a shield against "legitimate criticism". You yourself comitt these sins right this moment.
And Andromeda sucked because of bugs which were NOT handled by the same team handling representation and writing in the game.
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Andromeda sucked for a lot of reasons. The shitty handling of representation is just the hill I chose to stand on because it's the one most important to me and my friends. ( And before you bring up that Bioware apologized and patched in and patched out more romance options and dialogue, I have to say I'm unimpressed by the diversity checklist thinking that enables that kind of character change. Who a person is attracted to, and what they identify as, is an incredibly personal thing that should organically emerge from character interaction, not shoved up front with a sign saying "We're sowwy, pwease wuv us LGBT community")
And did you miss the part where I mentioned nerd toxicity? Because I definitely mentioned nerd toxicity. Nerd culture is full of entitled assholes scapegoating diversity. I never said there wasn't, there's vastly more nerd toxicity than there is legitimate criticism. I said that legitimate criticism gets lumped in with nerd toxicity because it's a convenient excuse to absolve the creators, the writers, whoever fucked up in the creative process, of admitting fault to save face.
Titans 2018, hell, this very thread, are shining examples! What are the bigwigs running the show going to see when it flops? That it was a poorly constructed mess of bad ideas, or that it failed because of the "haters?" It's happened with Ghostbusters 2016, which categorically wasted a stable of magnificent talent, It's happening with Star Wars Episode VIII, a movie that oozed potential and had a ton of interesting characters, concepts, and symbolism that subsequently wasted all of it by shitty execution, it's happening with Mass Effect Andromeda as the Bioware higher ups have started blaming everything under the sun for the game's failure at launch.
This isn't Mad Max Fury Road, or Black Panther, both products made with that sensitive touch and eye for quality I talked about, this is crap. And whoever is involved is militantly pretending that it isn't.
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- Poland
I think it is nerd toxicity you mention that is to blame for tge lumping since this kind of people tends to leech on any bit of legitimate criticism, exagerrate it in an echo chamber effect of constant repettition among themelves, each time making the claims more outlandish until they turn into bigoted memes divorced really from their oruginal source while said source is being ised to defend this very bigotry and give it an air of legitimacy. For example, Cornel West's legitimate and thoughtfull criticism of Ta-Nehisi Coates has been first sttipped down to memes used to attack the latter's politics by Richard Spencer and Neo Nazis and then has bben adopted by Richard Meyer and comicgate as an excuse to throw now racist slogans at his comics and when called on it use West as their shield and half of the time not even actual thoughts of West but his race, their favorite line of defense being "a black guy called him a race hustler first, so us, white people, calling him that cannot be racist"