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Titans DC - The Edge strikes back

Grim Goblin said:
I think it is nerd toxicity you mention that is to blame for tge lumping since this kind of people tends to leech on any bit of legitimate criticism, exagerrate it in an echo chamber effect of constant repettition among themelves, each time making the claims more outlandish until they turn into bigoted memes divorced really from their oruginal source while said source is being ised to defend this very bigotry and give it an air of legitimacy. For example, Cornel West's legitimate and thoughtfull criticism of Ta-Nehisi Coates has been first sttipped down to memes used to attack the latter's politics by Richard Spencer and Neo Nazis and then has bben adopted by Richard Meyer and comicgate as an excuse to throw now racist slogans at his comics and when called on it use West as their shield and half of the time not even actual thoughts of West but his race, their favorite line of defense being "a black guy called him a race hustler first, so us, white people, calling him that cannot be racist"
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Absolutely. You're completely on point there, and there's plain old psychological reasons for not exposing oneself to the frothing mob.

But I think any creator, in any field, can and should seek legitimate criticism from anywhere and everywhere they can find it. I could totally be wrong, considering I actively avoid the shittier parts of the internet for my own sanity, but I don't think legitimate criticism, both with an agenda and without, is that hard to find. It definitely colours my perception of Rian Johnson, DC, EL James, Roosterteeth, BioWare and EA, and a lot of other creators negatively.

I have to wonder if this trash fire has even been focus tested, considering the massive backlash. I know I'm definitely unimpressed that the character portrayed by a black actress is being described as "like Wolverine", something with connotations of instability and hair trigger violence. It's the kind of faux pas I just expect from zero effort diversity pandering that should have been caught by writers, directors producers, focus testers, or just about anyone with a modicum of sensitivity and care for the source material.
 
GrandeFatman0 said:
Andromeda sucked for a lot of reasons. The shitty handling of representation is just the hill I chose to stand on because it's the one most important to me and my friends. ( And before you bring up that Bioware apologized and patched in and patched out more romance options and dialogue, I have to say I'm unimpressed by the diversity checklist thinking that enables that kind of character change. Who a person is attracted to, and what they identify as, is an incredibly personal thing that should organically emerge from character interaction, not shoved up front with a sign saying "We're sowwy, pwease wuv us LGBT community")

And did you miss the part where I mentioned nerd toxicity? Because I definitely mentioned nerd toxicity. Nerd culture is full of entitled assholes scapegoating diversity. I never said there wasn't, there's vastly more nerd toxicity than there is legitimate criticism. I said that legitimate criticism gets lumped in with nerd toxicity because it's a convenient excuse to absolve the creators, the writers, whoever fucked up in the creative process, of admitting fault to save face.

Titans 2018, hell, this very thread, are shining examples! What are the bigwigs running the show going to see when it flops? That it was a poorly constructed mess of bad ideas, or that it failed because of the "haters?" It's happened with Ghostbusters 2016, which categorically wasted a stable of magnificent talent, It's happening with Star Wars Episode VIII, a movie that oozed potential and had a ton of interesting characters, concepts, and symbolism that subsequently wasted all of it by shitty execution, it's happening with Mass Effect Andromeda as the Bioware higher ups have started blaming everything under the sun for the game's failure at launch.

This isn't Mad Max Fury Road, or Black Panther, both products made with that sensitive touch and eye for quality I talked about, this is crap. And whoever is involved is militantly pretending that it isn't.
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If the Star Wars Episode VIII backlash was about exectution, the we'd have seen the backlash 2 years ago with The Force Awakens which had far fewer interesting concepts and far worse execution.
 
DracoDracul said:
If the Star Wars Episode VIII backlash was about exectution, the we'd have seen the backlash 2 years ago with The Force Awakens which had far fewer interesting concepts and far worse execution.
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There was some pretty major backlash against TFA over it being a rehash of the original movie, so that kinda took precedence on the charts.
 
All these people going back and forth about starfire and i'm just wondering how you'd pull off a dark grey skinned raven in live action and wishing theyd try.
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
There was some pretty major backlash against TFA over it being a rehash of the original movie, so that kinda took precedence on the charts.
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True, and TLJ compounded things by locking the new trilogy into a rehash of the "Empire vs Rebellion" scenario, where TFA left things open about tge state of the galaxy, too open even, TLJ squashed any hope of seeing a new Republic or any degree of success by the original heroes.

And on top of that, it's primarily a "Look at the gotcha, I'm sooo clever, look..." movie which just isn't an appealing premise by itself.
 
Can we, like, get away from the circular firing squad and the talking about stuff that has nothing to do with this TV show? Please?
 
ahahahaha

i knew it

Star War

It always comes back to the Star War Discourse

Soon the flames will fade and only Star War will remain

Even now there are embers, and posters see not light, but endless screeching about how Rey is a Mary Sue

And amongst the living are seen likers of the accursed last jedi
 
Yaminator said:
ahahahaha

i knew it

Star War

It always comes back to the Star War Discourse

Soon the flames will fade and only Star War will remain

Even now there are embers, and posters see not light, but endless screeching about how Rey is a Mary Sue

And amongst the living are seen likers of the accursed last jedi
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[Laughs in 2016 Democratic Primary]
 
Cyrus 21 said:
What Dark Universe? Tom Cruise killed that franchise in one movie.

Excellent choices, and great choices for Edge cures.
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Also good for some good entertainment that takes me mind off of current events.
Cyrus 21 said:
What Dark Universe? Tom Cruise killed that franchise in one movie.

Excellent choices, and great choices for Edge cures.
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Also good for a break from the black gaping melodrama that is american politics. The world is dark enough and sometimes you just need more lighthearted fare to unwind and relax.
 
Yaminator said:
ahahahaha

i knew it

Star War

It always comes back to the Star War Discourse

Soon the flames will fade and only Star War will remain

Even now there are embers, and posters see not light, but endless screeching about how Rey is a Mary Sue

And amongst the living are seen likers of the accursed last jedi
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But it doesn't end at Star Wars.

GG, m8. :p
 
GrandeFatman0 said:
But I think any creator, in any field, can and should seek legitimate criticism from anywhere and everywhere they can find it. I could totally be wrong, considering I actively avoid the shittier parts of the internet for my own sanity, but I don't think legitimate criticism, both with an agenda and without, is that hard to find. It definitely colours my perception of Rian Johnson, DC, EL James, Roosterteeth, BioWare and EA, and a lot of other creators negatively.
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The thing is that the so-called criticism is often in the era of youtube downgraded to people parrotting one another, especially if they're the toxic kind to boost or try to fit everything into increasingly toxic rhetorics. I have unfollowed critics when I saw they get themselves too deep into one way of thinking to see real problems and even if I agreed with them I'd find their behavior increasingly uncomfortable. Case in point, I have unfollowed Yong Yeah after he sided with people harassing Jessica Price due to him being too invested in his "US, GAMERS" rhetorics, but these same rhetorics started to make me uncomfortable even when he was covering stuff I was agreeing with him on, like the way he got worked on and angry while covering EA's new C&C game.

I have to wonder if this trash fire has even been focus tested, considering the massive backlash. I know I'm definitely unimpressed that the character portrayed by a black actress is being described as "like Wolverine", something with connotations of instability and hair trigger violence. It's the kind of faux pas I just expect from zero effort diversity pandering that should have been caught by writers, directors producers, focus testers, or just about anyone with a modicum of sensitivity and care for the source material.
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How it ocurred to you that maybe casting black acress as Starfire has nothing to do with any political agenda or diversity pandering and she simply was found best for the role for her skills? You are treating it as if they only casted her in the role to get "brownie points" and that it is what caused the mischaracterization and unfortunate implications you mentioned. Which is probably why such arguments are called racist since you draw a straight line between the diversity in the story and problems of the writing and just expect everyone to agree that's how it works. However, once you know a larger context you will realize that all of the actual problems we have seen so far, aside maybe cheap costumes, bear trademark of the problems that have been haunting writing of Geoff Johns for years as we have seen in many of his comics works and Johns is not exactly someone who I'd say is for any kind of diversity considering his history with reinstalling silver age characters in their old roles while sidelining or killing the legacy ones. I'm sorry but to look for a conncetion between a casting of a blak woman as an orange alien and Geoff Johns trying to make things grim and gritty and missing why people like certain characters, often because he still thinks reasons he liked or saw them as a kid are what majority of modern fandom thinks today, which he is fucking infamous for, is going to just make it look like you're trying to find a scapegoat instead of addressing a real problem.
 
Grim Goblin said:
The thing is that the so-called criticism is often in the era of youtube downgraded to people parrotting one another, especially if they're the toxic kind to boost or try to fit everything into increasingly toxic rhetorics. I have unfollowed critics when I saw they get themselves too deep into one way of thinking to see real problems and even if I agreed with them I'd find their behavior increasingly uncomfortable. Case in point, I have unfollowed Yong Yeah after he sided with people harassing Jessica Price due to him being too invested in his "US, GAMERS" rhetorics, but these same rhetorics started to make me uncomfortable even when he was covering stuff I was agreeing with him on, like the way he got worked on and angry while covering EA's new C&C game.


How it ocurred to you that maybe casting black acress as Starfire has nothing to do with any political agenda or diversity pandering and she simply was found best for the role for her skills? You are treating it as if they only casted her in the role to get "brownie points" and that it is what caused the mischaracterization and unfortunate implications you mentioned. Which is probably why such arguments are called racist since you draw a straight line between the diversity in the story and problems of the writing and just expect everyone to agree that's how it works. However, once you know a larger context you will realize that all of the actual problems we have seen so far, aside maybe cheap costumes, bear trademark of the problems that have been haunting writing of Geoff Johns for years as we have seen in many of his comics works and Johns is not exactly someone who I'd say is for any kind of diversity considering his history with reinstalling silver age characters in their old roles while sidelining or killing the legacy ones. I'm sorry but to look for a conncetion between a casting of a blak woman as an orange alien and Geoff Johns trying to make things grim and gritty and missing why people like certain characters, often because he still thinks reasons he liked or saw them as a kid are what majority of modern fandom thinks today, which he is fucking infamous for, is going to just make it look like you're trying to find a scapegoat instead of addressing a real problem.
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I'm not really seeing too many folks in here complaining about her being black. Mostly just complaining about the makeup, costume, and FX (regular fire does not equal green energy beams)
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
I'm not really seeing too many folks in here complaining about her being black. Mostly just complaining about the makeup, costume, and FX (regular fire does not equal green energy beams)
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Putting aside the fact person I'm responding to used Starfire to complain about "diversity pandering" and blame on it other problems of the trailer, of course...
 
Grim Goblin said:
Putting aside the fact person I'm responding to used Starfire to complain about "diversity pandering" and blame on it other problems of the trailer, of course...
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I said not too many. I understand that there's always going to be a couple of that sort, but There's just so much wrong with this trailer that I can't see anyone defend it with a straight face.
 
Grim Goblin said:
Putting aside the fact person I'm responding to used Starfire to complain about "diversity pandering" and blame on it other problems of the trailer, of course...
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Okay, I'm killing this bullshit right fucking here.

I think ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering is bad. I think, when done especially badly, ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering perpetuates harmful attitudes and stereotypes. I brought this up purely because I agreed with someone that Raven could be made Indian in an adaptation, but doubt that it would be handled in a manner befitting both the character and the culture they're cribbing from.

As for Starfire, I never said her casting was for brownie points. Quote me saying that and I'll drink ghost pepper sauce. I believe everyone when they say she was the best choice, but she's being let down by shitty costuming and writers who can charitably be described as pure crap, and that crap has, unfortunately, perpetuated ugly stereotypes. What a shocker.

She's not alone in the character assassination, but that no one felt at least a little off about how they were characterizing, intentionally or unintentionally, their main POC character (one of all but three or four out of the entire cast. Shocker) is exactly the kind of intellectual laziness I expect from ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering. No, the effort starts and stops at getting one or two POC and fuck everything else.

But I doubt you fucking care, you're content to just sit back and mischaracterize myself and my argument because you have to be right on the internet. I'm done talking to such blatant bad faith.

Edit: and as far as Star Wars goes, Rian Johnson, while guilty of making and ignoring that he made a shit movie, IS NOT guilty of ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering. I love Finn and Rey, and the few times that film was completely on point was when it was focusing on Rey.
 
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GrandeFatman0 said:
Okay, I'm killing this bullshit right fucking here.

I think ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering is bad. I think, when done especially badly, ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering perpetuates harmful attitudes and stereotypes. I brought this up purely because I agreed with someone that Raven could be made Indian in an adaptation, but doubt that it would be handled in a manner befitting both the character and the culture they're cribbing from.

As for Starfire, I never said her casting was for brownie points. Quote me saying that and I'll drink ghost pepper sauce. I believe everyone when they say she was the best choice, but she's being let down by shitty costuming and writers who can charitably be described as pure crap, and that crap has, unfortunately, perpetuated ugly stereotypes. What a shocker.

She's not alone in the character assassination, but that no one felt at least a little off about how they were characterizing, intentionally or unintentionally, their main POC character (one of all but three or four out of the entire cast. Shocker) is exactly the kind of intellectual laziness I expect from ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering. No, the effort starts and stops at getting one or two POC and fuck everything else.

But I doubt you fucking care, you're content to just sit back and mischaracterize myself and my argument because you have to be right on the internet. I'm done talking to such blatant bad faith.

Edit: and as far as Star Wars goes, Rian Johnson, while guilty of making and ignoring that he made a shit movie, IS NOT guilty of ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering. I love Finn and Rey, and the few times that film was completely on point was when it was focusing on Rey.
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I dunno man I feel like "ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering" is an actual logical impossibility in this day and age

Literally any attempt to put minorities into pop culture has to weather the fury of a million mediocre manbabies so the effort floor for this kinda stuff is honestly pretty high

I doubt I have the chops to "ZERO EFFORT diversity pander" because I'm not made of stern enough stuff to brave the tsunami of harassment, death threats, doxxing, and other assorted bullshit that comes along with the package
 
Yaminator said:
I dunno man I feel like "ZERO EFFORT diversity pandering" is an actual logical impossibility in this day and age

Literally any attempt to put minorities into pop culture has to weather the fury of a million mediocre manbabies so the effort floor for this kinda stuff is honestly pretty high

I doubt I have the chops to "ZERO EFFORT diversity pander" because I'm not made of stern enough stuff to brave the tsunami of harassment, death threats, doxxing, and other assorted bullshit that comes along with the package
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It's a double standard for sure. Bigots with an axe to grind point at any piece of diverse media, but single out the crap, and say it's crap because of the diversity, rather than the actual answer, that it's crap. The ugly truth is that socially conscious media is stuck having to strive to be the cream of the crop to shut those voices up. It's why I keep bringing up Fury Road and Black Panther. Whiny manbabies shat all over those films for the same reasons they shat on Ghostbusters, but anyone with a functional brain ignored them because those movies were goddamn amazing.

Every piece of diverse media that kills it financially and socially is a big damn win, not just for minorities but the whole damn world, but I've been burned by celebrating social change too soon before (India recriminalizing homosexuality). The wins need to keep coming and crap like Titans doesn't help. Media in general needs to be held to a higher standard, but unfortunately, diverse media needs to be held to a higher standard than its contemporaries because there's so much potential for damage if it fails. For any reason really, not just chronic insensitivity.

I will admit, though, that a lot of this stems from deeply rooted cynicism about Hollywood. Shape of Water winning best picture and the wild success of Black Panther and Love, Simon gives me hope that Hollywood is finally addressing its problems with tokenism and representation, but I'm not holding my breath, especially since there's a big budget Ayn Rand movie in the pipeline.
 
Saw the trailer. I laughed and cringed. This is going to be awful in all counts.

Fuck Batman.

And the complete OOC intepretations of Robin and Raven, jeez.

This is going to be Riverdale 2.0 isnt it .
 
Arawn_Emrys said:
I'm not really seeing too many folks in here complaining about her being black. Mostly just complaining about the makeup, costume, and FX (regular fire does not equal green energy beams)
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You can in fact talk about something happening in the wider fandom in a thread where it's not happening; just because not many people are being racist here, I'd actually dispute that a lot of them will use dog whistles like "ghetto" and "whore" in this case, doesn't mean that this isn't an issue to discuss since it's clearly widespread enough to be forcing reactions from the cast of this show.

In short: we can talk about the racist shits without talking about anyone here.
Arawn_Emrys said:
I said not too many. I understand that there's always going to be a couple of that sort, but There's just so much wrong with this trailer that I can't see anyone defend it with a straight face.
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"I can't see how people can criticize people being racist against people involved in productions we don't like." This is a bad take.
 
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Between the shit designs of Starfire, Beastboy and Raven and the fact they're actively trying to out dark the former DCEU, HOLY SHIT do they need to breath new life into the true Teen Titans
 
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