The Voyage Without

There is some value in having more coinage. It allows for greater trade without having to rely on fiet government backed currency. It depends on the development of the society.
That can be the case in certain contexts, yes. Determining that raising the bullion supply will improve the local economy's state of inadequate monetization would be fairly fiddly and a tad interventionist, though.

A localized injection of precious metals used as currency can also make a mess of an economy by playing havoc on price levels.

(Not that introducing a large mass of any particular valuable material isn't potentially disruptive.)
 
If one wants to go in that direction of analysis, I suspect the "better" trade good would be something like large amounts of table salt. Universally desired for most species so long as they have even vaguely mammal-like biologies, easy to keep, not something that would directly tilt any military balance of power, and having too much of it is both temporary and quite unlikely to collapse any economies in the meantime.
 
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If one wants to go in that direction of analysis, I suspect the "better" trade good would be something like large amounts of table salt. Universally desired for most species so long as they have even vaguely mammal-like biologies, easy to keep, not something that would directly tilt any military balance of power, and having too much of it is both temporary and quite unlikely to collapse any economies in the meantime.
Only in VERY primitive societies is salt expensive enough to be a major trade good. Anywhere that's going to have goods worth trading for is going to need multiple shuttles chock full of the stuff to get a decent trade going.
 
It's not like gold is actually worthless; we don't use it for a lot of potential applications because it is too scarce. But if you could get regular shipments they would be more viable. Especially since gold is not actually particularly rare, it just sinks to the core of rocky planets.
 
So I think I mentioned it on this fic before ... Could be another one I'm reading, but why does everyone call Janeway sir? I know it's a thing in Starfleet to call everyone sir and was mentioned with another character on the MC's cadet posting but Janeway asks Harry Kim to call her ma'am at her preference in the first episode of Voyager if I recall correctly. I never got clarification if it was just author's preference or an oversight.

Edit: I'm pretty sure everyone else calls her ma'am for the rest of the series.
I chalk the discrepancy you mention up to shit writing. Which is a staple of canon Voyager, so is a useful general purpose excuse.

However, there is a cultural thing in fiction where you call superior officers "sir" regardless of sex due to it being a holdover from the days of knighthood, which became a sex-neutral title after women were allowed to become knights and shove the appellation into the faces of anyone who gave them guff for their genitals.
 
Only in VERY primitive societies is salt expensive enough to be a major trade good. Anywhere that's going to have goods worth trading for is going to need multiple shuttles chock full of the stuff to get a decent trade going.
...and? "Multiple shuttles worth" is small change for a ship like Voyager. They could just replicate a hundred tons and beam it down as bricks. A junior ensign should be able to run the whole operation.
 
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...and? "Multiple shuttles worth" is small change for a ship like Voyager. They could just replicate a hundred tons and beam it down as bricks. A junior ensign should be able to run the whole operation.
No teleporters in this 'verse. It would be excessively annoying to collect and store that much salt. Compared to the gold, which will likely fit in a briefcase.
 
Yeah, cant just beam whatever we need out of a rock. Any material has to be physically mined and then carried aboard to refine.

Which... brings up a ton of questions. Do ships in this verse now have much, MUCH more substantial cargo bay doors and internal transit systems? Does Voyager now have a cargo ramp?

Hell, a dedicated cargo shuttle?
 
Only in VERY primitive societies is salt expensive enough to be a major trade good. Anywhere that's going to have goods worth trading for is going to need multiple shuttles chock full of the stuff to get a decent trade going.
Very primitive relative to what? Salt for gold trade in North Africa and all that. They are shopping for food and maybe organic materials more than any kind of advanced products. Both raw non-exotic elements and assembled devices are more easily procured directly than from trade.

Zephyr would love to buy a fresh Mammoth kill. (Though hunting his own might be better.)
 
Very primitive relative to what? Salt for gold trade in North Africa and all that. They are shopping for food and maybe organic materials more than any kind of advanced products. Both raw non-exotic elements and assembled devices are more easily procured directly than from trade.

Zephyr would love to buy a fresh Mammoth kill. (Though hunting his own might be better.)
Ok, did a bit of research. Salt was expensive for a lot longer than I thought it was.

Still, it's primary use for society that makes it so valuable is conserving food. Any society that has effective refrigeration isn't going to be trading in salt, at least without Voyager showing up with tons and tons of the stuff.

Pound for pound, we want useful or valuable metals. Gold and platinum have already been mentioned, but copper, lithium, neodymium and other rare earths, that's where the money is. Substances that are directly useful in any number of applications when you cant just press a button to print a gameboy from base matter.
 
Salt is also important as an ingredient.

(It's pretty much essential, whichis part of why you see it as a taxation target fairly often.)
Pound for pound, we want useful or valuable metals. Gold and platinum have already been mentioned, but copper, lithium, neodymium and other rare earths, that's where the money is. Substances that are directly useful in any number of applications when you cant just press a button to print a gameboy from base matter.
Pound for pound doesn't really matter though.

Precious metals are what they are going for. I observed that taking a bunch of useful materials off the primitives in return for metals that will exclusively serve as luxuries for elites seems not good Federation ethics.
 
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Pound for pound doesn't really matter though.
Ok, let's go hard numbers. Because our shuttles definitely have a max carry capacity even if we tractor the loads down instead of hauling them internally.

A single ton of salt in today's money is 129 USD.

A single ton of Copper is just over 9000 USD

A ton of Lithium is 37k.

Cobalt is 28k.

Tin at 31k.

All useful materials for industry without just being used to make jewelry for fat cats if that's such a concern.

There is NO good reason to even consider salt in this situation, assuming that this planet has a roughly similar market to earth.

Hard to say specific values of course, the planet could be stupidly rich in materials rare on earth. It could very well be that zinc is a precious metal and reserve for currency. But given how necessary salts are for life in the first place, I doubt a life bearing world is going to be lacking in them enough to outweigh the value of material that can go straight into wires, tools, or finished goods.
 
People are really being weird on this gold and platinum issue.

For all you gamers, D&D lied to us, there were no platinum coins in the European middle ages. Platinum wasn't even recognized as a thing till the mid 1500s, was basically ignored till the mid 1700s, and we didn't have the tools to effectively work it in anything but the small scale until around 1900. Then it got stupidly valuable as a status symbol and we also figured out it was amazingly useful in chemistry and industrial processes as a catalyst and making nonreactive equipment. Unless the target culture has steam engines or modern chemistry, Platinum is just a scientific curiosity or a harder version of silver.

Gold on the other hand is just about the only product that is almost universally desired in any trade across all of human history and geography. Given its relatively small size as how easy it is for Voyager to pick up its probably the single best choice for Voyager to have on hand before contacting an unknown culture. People are also over estimating the disturbance a little bit of gold would introduce into most economies. Unless they are utter idiots and swamp the local economy with gold, its not going to be a big deal.

Edit: All this can also be ignored and tossed out the window if the author has some gold/platinum storyline he wants to tell. Maybe every ship plays with gold and they have so much they use it to cover all their government buildings.
 
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If you are worried about the local economy, which you probably shouldn't if they have trade with spacefaring vessels, make sure to use something that is naturally deflationary, ie is used to get value out of it. If they have radio, you could probably do things that would be expensive/power intensive for the locals, like selling them industrial or information age magnets.
 
Seems like people are so caught up in the ethics/resource debate they missed the joke.

Zephyr is a dragon. They are literally sending down a dragon with an absurd amount of precious metals and what will appear to be a contingent of humanoid servants.
 
Gold on the other hand is just about the only product that is almost universally desired in any trade across all of human history and geography. Given its relatively small size as how easy it is for Voyager to pick up its probably the single best choice for Voyager to have on hand before contacting an unknown culture. People are also over estimating the disturbance a little bit of gold would introduce into most economies. Unless they are utter idiots and swamp the local economy with gold, its not going to be a big deal.
In Earth history until quite late, gold wouldn't be so much of a monetary disruption. For most of history gold was valuable but silver was generally the metal of currency, I believe?

The original objection, by me, to gold was that trading it would be effective, but would tend to harm the trading partner by extracting trade goods of general use (food) in exchange for elite material that will not do anything for most of the population (gold). The trade partners would very likely take it unless they've been impacted oddly by trade with other spacefarers, but that's in service to the interests of the ruling classes which are, from a Federation perspective, bad.
 
In Earth history until quite late, gold wouldn't be so much of a monetary disruption. For most of history gold was valuable but silver was generally the metal of currency, I believe?

The original objection, by me, to gold was that trading it would be effective, but would tend to harm the trading partner by extracting trade goods of general use (food) in exchange for elite material that will not do anything for most of the population (gold). The trade partners would very likely take it unless they've been impacted oddly by trade with other spacefarers, but that's in service to the interests of the ruling classes which are, from a Federation perspective, bad.

I think that both have always been acceptable, but gold has always been the more valuable of the two. A web search suggests that the ratio of gold to silver started pretty low back in ancient Egypt, roughly 2.5:1. The Roman Empire established a ratio of 12:1 and it stayed around the number, give or take 3 points till the 1800 or so. After that it went on a slow climb until it went absolutely wild in the 1900s with peaks up to 100:1 and an average of 47:1.

As for the local economic impacts, any type of goods can cause an economic disturbance if too much is offloaded at once. Donated food sent to areas on earth that have suffered a natural catastrophe can cause permanent damage to local food production if too much is sent at once.
Honestly gold or other luxury goods are often the least damaging thing you can sell to a smaller economy in exchange for food or raw materials. It transfers wealth away from the rich people that desire the luxury goods and moves it into the hands of the traders, miners, and farmers that actually do the work. Assuming you don't take too much, slavery isn't involved, and there isn't some other economic bubble/weirdness involved.
There is no 'safe' goods and the crew will have to do some quick research to make sure whatever they are exchanging isn't gonna have a negative impact on the locals.
 
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Is the Chakotay bit an in universe explanation for the Doylist bullshitery that was Voyager's not so native American advisor?
 
Ah, that couldn't have happened here because she was not Captain at that point in time in this fic, so perhaps she just never settled on a title she would prefer to be addressed by so standard is standard.
Or at least, she hasn't settled on a preferred form of address yet.

Oh, technology and science would be inappropriate, as they made clear. But useful metals instead of luxury metals would be doable if less mass-efficient. Copper, tin, iron, rare earths, depending on the tech level you are trading with.
I think this is the important part, but it's also something we don't know the answer to.

We know they have radios, but did they develop it themselves or was the information/tech sold/gifted to them?

Do they still use primarily muscle power (ie animals)? Do they use steam power? Do they have advanced electric/petrollium powered vehicles? Do they not have space flight because they can't make them, or because culturally, they have no interest in travelling to space?
 
Is the Chakotay bit an in universe explanation for the Doylist bullshitery that was Voyager's not so native American advisor?
Probably. And its a fairly decent one, really. Its believable and neatly explains why his traditions are such a mess. And i like his attitude of "its the thought that counts", because that really is how rituals and such start.
 
22
I relaxed in the cargo bay, my head resting on the block of platinum as I waited. The cargo hold of the shuttle was not the largest, but at least I could lay down if I curled my tail a bit.

Ensign Kim was piloting us down to the surface while Dinah provided security.

The Toliax had been fairly friendly when contacted. They had given us a flight corridor to land at a pretty isolated location on the southern continent. From the sensor scans, it looked like a base of some sort.

Which made sense in my mind.

I wouldn't want unknown aliens wandering around in my cities either, especially if these people are pre-spaceflight. But they clearly had traded with people that were.

We had talked to them on subspace and while their tech seemed to be somewhere equivalent to humanity back in the nineteen nineties, using fossil fuel powered vehicles and such, we had detected the signature of several much more advanced fusion reactors.

I kept an eye on the sensors in my visor. On the way through the lower atmosphere we had been joined by a pair of what had to be military fighter craft.

Feeling a bit bored, I poked a bit at their computer security. As expected, it was kinda crap. But while I could listen in to their communications, I couldn't outright take control of their craft.

Either they weren't computer controlled or their fly-by-wire systems were isolated.

Which wasn't exactly foolproof, but would make me work for it..

They seemed to find the design of our shuttle interesting from the chatter. Their weapons were radar guided, so I added a macro that would scatter radar to trigger if we raised shields.

They'd need a nuke to get through our shields, but there was no need to be sloppy about it.

"On final approach, Lieutenant," Ensign Kim's voice said through the comm system.

"Acknowledged," I responded and pushed myself up to sit with a jawn.

Then I simply waited for the small shudder of the shuttle to settle down before I moved towards the ramp. Huginn got up from its seat and moved to hold a hand above the open control panel before waiting.

I checked the readings.

All showed as clear.

I nodded and the ramp started to lower. There was a hiss of equalizing gasses and sunlight filtered in along with the scent of the outside. It smelled dry.

Unsurprising, we were in a desert.

Several vehicles were approaching at a low speed. They looked like personal vehicles, not military. No weapons and they didn't look armored.

Each of them painted white as well and seemed to be of the same rounded models.

They came to a stop about a hundred meters away, engines quieting.

I walked down the ramp, Huginn and Muninn following behind me as I stretched a bit on the way down, wings rising high and wide before I folded them again.

Then I stopped a dozen meters from the ramp and simply sat down on the hot concrete to wait.

No movement from the vehicles.

That's right, you may admire my magnificence. Either that or keeping me waiting was a negotiation tactic. If that was their plan, they would be kinda disappointed.

I really rather enjoyed the feeling of being outside again and feeling a real sun against my scales.

So I just let my eyes half close as I enjoyed the bright sunshine.

Maybe five minutes later, the door of the middle vehicle opened and three people got out.

The aliens were avian in appearance. Humanoid, blue feathered with beaks and... okay, they looked like giant bipedal budgies. There was no way around it, down to the damn white heads and black streaks.

They were slightly larger than humans, but not significantly.

What seemed to be the lead one was wearing a bright scarlet robe, the other two following were wearing hot pink ones.

Fascinating, status indicated by the fullness of colors? Anything at this point would be idle speculation of course. It may be as simple as he's wearing new robes and theirs have been through the wash too many times.

They approach, bringing a scent of peppers with them.

The budgie aliens smelled like peppers. That's a giant step up from human stink, could I make some trades perhaps? I doubt Captain Janeway would approve, but maybe I could at least switch out Neelix. That would greatly save on my nose.

They stopped maybe five meters before me, the lead one spreading her arms, "I am Envoy Trillk. Welcome to Toliax, strange one."

"I am Zephyr. I take your greeting and return it equally, Envoy Trillk," I said, "We have come to trade for supplies with your people."

"We do not recognize your species," she said, lowering her arms again, "Nor the design of your craft."

"We are simply passing through this area of space," I explained, "We transmitted a list of what we require as we entered the system as requested. I take it that you have reviewed it?"

Trillk spread her arms once more, this time in a more encircling motion, "We have. For what you wish of us, we would like a fusion reactor."

"No."

The feathers on the top of her head rose a bit, "No?"

"No," I said again before I clarified, "This is not a negotiation tactic. It is against one of our most important laws to trade our technology to less advanced species. We can offer cultural materials or raw resources. Even some limited technology within your band that you do not have yet, but no advanced technology."

She was quiet for several moments before she lowered her arms, "In which case, perhaps we do not have what you wish."

"Envoy," I said, "If that is the case, then we will leave. Stopping at your world is convenient, nothing else. We can easily find an uninhabited world to gather the supplies. Trading with you does nothing but save us a bit of time to gather it ourselves. But perhaps you would wish to reconsider?"

I motioned with one paw and Huginn reached into the bag it carried over one shoulder and pulled out three small bars.

It held them up so they could see it before walking forward to stand in the middle between us, holding them out towards the Envoy.

She hesitated before motioning towards the flunkey to her right.

He cautiously approached, clawed hand trembling slightly as he reached out to take them before he retreated back to his two companions.

He showed her and they poked and prodded a bit at the bars before she turned back to me,

"This is... gold?"

"One bar of gold, silver and platinum respectively. Do you find these materials valuable?"

She hesitated, "...We do..." she admitted.

I thought so, she was wearing a couple of rings of what looked like gold around several fingers.

"Those are molecularly pure with no subsurface contaminants. We are willing to pay for our supplies in any metal you wish. It can just as easily be platinum as iron," I explained, "Or even more advanced materials. More valuable materials are simply easier to transport."

Envoy Trillk was quiet for several seconds, a bar of platinum slowly turning around in her claws as she studied me before she glanced towards the shuttle, "The shuttle seems small for your species," she commented.

"It is. Most beings on our crew are closer to your size," I confirmed, "I was chosen to negotiate with you because I have experience with civilizations at your level of development. I decided to come alone, I am aware I am intimidating enough without adding more people."

The feathers on her head stood up again before she motioned with her left hand, "What of these two?" she asked, indicating Huginn and Muninn.

"They are machines, no people," I explained, "Nothing more than computer controlled robotics. Some things people your size use are too small or insignificant to bother with, so I have them to assist me with such matters."

Her feathers slowly lowered, "I understand," she said, "We would need to discuss trading for these metals. We would prefer advanced technology, to trade for metals instead, even something as gold, we would need a significant amount."

"Do not discuss for too long," I cautioned her, "Like I said, we do not need to trade with you, it's simply a matter of convenience. And I know the value of such metals. While we are willing to pay, do not be tempted to ask too high a price."

Trillk's feathers went right back up before she spread her arms, "I understand," she said before handing the platinum back to the same flunkey and he started to step forward.

I raised one paw and he froze, "No need to return them," I said, "Consider it a sample and a gift."

He backed up and her feathers fluffed out a bit,

"We thank you, Zephyr," she said, "We will return with our offer in a quarter solar cycle."

"That is agreeable," I confirmed.

As they retreated back to their vehicle, I waited until their doors closed before I spoke again, "What do you think, Captain?" I asked over the open comm channel.

"Well done, Lieutenant. You don't think you pushed them a bit hard?"

"No, they'll fold. They have even less of those metals on their planet than Earth did, our orbital scans showed so much. Each of those bars I handed her is worth more than she makes a year, even at her likely level of income. They'll fold to greed, the question is simply how much they ask for. Whatever it is, I'll say it's too much and negotiate them downwards. They'll argue and we'll end up with a trade around eighty percent of what they want."

"Why would we bother? We can easily mine more."

I snorted, "Because it's what these primitives expect. If they realize we find it worthless, they'll be suspicious. As for now, we simply wait. And I'm going to be staying right here, enjoying their sunlight."
 
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