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The Practice War [Complete]

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Alright, plan B: hide the fleet behind (-on? What's the T/W of these ships?) Mars. They'll probably work their way in clearing each target along the way again, and even if they don't Mars will likely be a priority target. By the time they realize the fleet is there they'll be far inside the jump-line and quite possibly even in a vulnerable order. The Mars defenses can serve as an anvil while the fleet play the hammer and the 223 pick off any fleeing stragglers before they can escape. No messages out, the Tribute Fleet simply disappears.

If they're stronger than anticipated we write off Mars and do the same thing, but with Earth.
 
That might not be good, they KNOW we have a fleet of some kind, we took out their spy, their launch pad, and many/all? of their tombstone data dumps.

Give them a target to aim for, use it as bait?
 
Snowfire said:
It's less that and more that you're talking about hitting a civilisation that takes up a considerable percentage of the real estate in the galactic core. There's also the fact that they, from what you've been able to discover, have an excellent intelligence service. And they're utterly ruthless about wiping out potential threats.
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they've been effectively torturing civilizations to death/near death for generations at this point right? I doubt there is a lack of people beyond the point of giving a fuck, and eventually one of them is going to get lucky.


Snowfire said:
On the matter of stealth, however, the Tombstone platforms were relatively static when taken in the reference frame of the solar system. A c-fractional object is pretty much impossible to conceal just because of how much radiation it pours out and also its effects on the fabric of spacetime. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.
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wouldn't a solid metal slug accelerated from a mass driver be really hard to detect? or failing that an otherwise inert projectile with a nasty warhead accelerated to high but non relativistic speeds in the same manner? worlds are fragile when you get down to it.
 
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Snowfire said:
Just outside of the orbit of Pluto (which is a planet in this universe, damnit!)
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If Pluto's a planet, then so are the other 73 objects of similar size floating out there beyond Neptune (that we have confirmed; there are thought to be thousands more out there that we haven't noticed yet). The only reason Pluto's ever been considered a planet is because some lucky SOB saw it and named it a planet about 60 years before any of the others were noticed.

I'm sorry if it's upsetting, but Pluto is just not a planet. It's way off the plane of the ecliptic; its "moon" is so close to it in size that it's more like a binary system than a moon; it doesn't even clear out its own orbital pathway. If we name Pluto a planet then we need to name every asteroid in the Asteroid Belt planets too.
 
TheEyes said:
If Pluto's a planet, then so are the other 73 objects of similar size floating out there beyond Neptune (that we have confirmed; there are thought to be thousands more out there that we haven't noticed yet). The only reason Pluto's ever been considered a planet is because some lucky SOB saw it and named it a planet about 60 years before any of the others were noticed.

I'm sorry if it's upsetting, but Pluto is just not a planet. It's way off the plane of the ecliptic; its "moon" is so close to it in size that it's more like a binary system than a moon; it doesn't even clear out its own orbital pathway. If we name Pluto a planet then we need to name every asteroid in the Asteroid Belt planets too.
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Whilst your logic is impeccable, my 90s educated brain refuses to accept it. Well, not really, but ;-; I want my Pluto.

Lailoken said:
Alright, plan B: hide the fleet behind (-on? What's the T/W of these ships?) Mars. They'll probably work their way in clearing each target along the way again, and even if they don't Mars will likely be a priority target. By the time they realize the fleet is there they'll be far inside the jump-line and quite possibly even in a vulnerable order. The Mars defenses can serve as an anvil while the fleet play the hammer and the 223 pick off any fleeing stragglers before they can escape. No messages out, the Tribute Fleet simply disappears.

If they're stronger than anticipated we write off Mars and do the same thing, but with Earth.
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Hiding from lagless sensors without stealth materials is pretty much futile given the capabilities of lagless sensors.

To come right out and say it; Tribute Fleet doctrine places heavy focus on direct engagement of the enemy space presence before moving on to anything else. It is highly likely that they will come in after your fleet, but abandoning the outer system has some consequences, namely the several orbitals out there that will almost certainly be destroyed.

random_npc said:
they've been effectively torturing civilizations to death/near death for generations at this point right? I doubt there is a lack of people beyond the point of giving a fuck, and eventually one of them is going to get lucky.
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I mean, this is undeniably true. The problem is that those people who are in that place right now are generally stuck in the sort of place that humanity would have been if Potentials hadn't been a thing. Those that try to become active threats to the Shiplords end up rather swiftly extinct, and those that manage to break the chains on them without having that happen are little too focused on existing than fighting back. Very few are in a position where they're stable enough to consider striking back, and they'd need allies to successfully do so and survive. See the Unknown Potential Interlude for how well this has been going for them over the last fifty thousand years.

Eventually most of the stable races become Uninvolved, if only due to sheer apathy, and the cycle keeps on moving.

random_npc said:
wouldn't a solid metal slug accelerated from a mass driver be really hard to detect? or failing that an otherwise inert projectile with a nasty warhead accelerated to high but sub light speeds in the same manner? worlds are fragile when you get down to it.
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The energy pulse from the acceleration wouldn't be, which is really the main problem when lagless sensors are taken into account.
 
What EXACTLY is in the outer system at this time that we could/will lose?

As it was I didn't think we had anything other than a rare few resources out there that we should evacuate before the attack.
 
Snowfire said:
I mean, this is undeniably true. The problem is that those people who are in that place right now are generally stuck in the sort of place that humanity would have been if Potentials hadn't been a thing. Those that try to become active threats to the Shiplords end up rather swiftly extinct, and those that manage to break the chains on them without having that happen are little too focused on existing than fighting back. Very few are in a position where they're stable enough to consider striking back, and they'd need allies to successfully do so and survive. See the Unknown Potential Interlude for how well this has been going for them over the last fifty thousand years.

Eventually most of the stable races become Uninvolved, if only due to sheer apathy, and the cycle keeps on moving.
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I was thinking more of a fleet based thing. some lunatic von numans himself an impactor swarm and sets out to do as much damage to the fleet lords as he can.

Snowfire said:
The energy pulse from the acceleration wouldn't be, which is really the main problem when lagless sensors are taken into account.
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that still leaves slow boating. either fire from a light year out and coast, or accelerate at a rate that can be hidden over a months long approach. Either way the interception envelope is the outer edge of there sensors so from a light year or a light day are rather similar in interception time.
 
GamingGeek said:
What EXACTLY is in the outer system at this time that we could/will lose?

As it was I didn't think we had anything other than a rare few resources out there that we should evacuate before the attack.
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There are several Orbitals which you would lose, and the main problem with that would be that they're likely to give away what you've done to them. It also would also invalidate a lot of the upgrades you've poured into them unless you're willing to reveal your technological hand early.

random_npc said:
I was thinking more of a fleet based thing. some lunatic von numans himself an impactor swarm and sets out to do as much damage to the fleet lords as he can.
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There are...reasons that this hasn't happened. I can't actually say more than that without spoiling stuff though :(


random_npc said:
that still leaves slow boating. either fire from a light year out and coast, or accelerate at a rate that can be hidden over a months long approach. Either way the interception envelope is the outer edge of there sensors so from a light year or a light day are rather similar in interception time.
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This is also true, but those would be more a threat to you than the Shiplords. They have countermeasures, but I can't explain them for the same reasons as above.
 
Snowfire said:
There are several Orbitals which you would lose, and the main problem with that would be that they're likely to give away what you've done to them. It also would also invalidate a lot of the upgrades you've poured into them unless you're willing to reveal your technological hand early.
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would it be possible to move them into closer orbits? It's starting to look like fighting the tribute fleet in the outer system is a losing proposition.


Snowfire said:
There are...reasons that this hasn't happened. I can't actually say more than that without spoiling stuff though :(


This is also true, but those would be more a threat to you than the Shiplords. They have countermeasures, but I can't explain them for the same reasons as above.
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well now that has interesting implications. either disappearing into the black isn't possible because you can be tracked, or because it's dangerous out there away form fortified systems. given we saw what looked like predators roaming the void, the night could well be dark and full of terrors. The fact that you can protect against slow boating impactors might also imply that there is at least one major aspect of serious face interstellar war we haven't even realized exists yet. Or at the very least, stealth doesn't work between equals or near equals.
 
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random_npc said:
would it be possible to move them into closer orbits? It's starting to look like fighting the tribute fleet in the outer system is a losing proposition.
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Certainly not a losing proposition, just harder. You're handing them tactical ability that they wouldn't have further in-system, but if you want to withhold if from them you have to let them come in closer to Earth and Mars. Of course, letting them in closer also makes it harder for them to run if you win, so, swings and roundabouts.

It would be possible to move the orbitals in, but it would be an action to do so, and not a vastly simple one. They weren't really designed to move except for attitude adjustment, and that's a very particular type of strain.
 
Snowfire said:
It would be possible to move the orbitals in, but it would be an action to do so, and not a vastly simple one. They weren't really designed to move except for attitude adjustment, and that's a very particular type of strain.
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Serious question - why are the orbitals there in the first place if fighting in the outer system is disadvantageous?
 
PrimalShadow said:
Serious question - why are the orbitals there in the first place if fighting in the outer system is disadvantageous?
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...yea, I'm starting to question that as well. Did we not know about the FTL limits before? If we knew about this, why would we put heavy resources in non-central locations before we found a way to defend them? This seems like an IC knowledge that we didn't know OOC before now.

We can still defend them, but I'm starting to wonder if we should just scuttle them now so that they don't give the enemy data.
 
GamingGeek said:
...yea, I'm starting to question that as well. Did we not know about the FTL limits before? If we knew about this, why would we put heavy resources in non-central locations before we found a way to defend them? This seems like an IC knowledge that we didn't know OOC before now.

We can still defend them, but I'm starting to wonder if we should just scuttle them now so that they don't give the enemy data.
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I have to agree with this. If we can't effectively defend those platforms, we have no choice but to abandon (read: scrap) them. The only out is if the Tribute Fleet ignores them in favour of rushing our fleet. Against a War Fleet, they would be insta-gibbed.
I don't think we knew about the FTL limits until after we captured the courier, and maybe not until we ran trials with our new flagship. Also, our flagship can't use FTL inside the asteroid belt, either.
To those asking whether Earth and Mars will be on opposite sides of the system, it all depends on what month the SL's attack in. We won't know until they get here. We could try keeping the fleet roughly between them when the time is getting close.
 
Snowfire said:
My benevolent QM side politely suggests that you stop giving my malevolent QM side ideas.
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Coating KKVs in the stealth-coating you introduced with Tombstone - is pretty forwad.
Point is, once a race got FTL capabilities it can do so, too - and if they take time, the attack starts from another solar system (>>MAD). So, killing off a home system without killing off all FTL vessels might net you a big surprise a few decades down the line.

spikethehobbit said:
I have to agree with this. If we can't effectively defend those platforms, we have no choice but to abandon (read: scrap) them. The only out is if the Tribute Fleet ignores them in favour of rushing our fleet. Against a War Fleet, they would be insta-gibbed.
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They may have values as traps, also the psychological version, to instill false (hopefully ...) confidence in the Tribute Fleet. We may try (or not) to present the image of a young race bend on revenge (that should be familiar for the SL) that doesn't have the tech or strategy to really pull it off. So, pull out all non-combatants from the orbitals and man them with volunteers. For example.
 
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MTB said:
Coating KKVs in the stealth-coating you introduced with Tombstone - is pretty forwad.
Point is, once a race got FTL capabilities it can do so, too - and if they take time, the attack starts from another solar system (>>MAD). So, killing off a home system without killing off all FTL vessels might net you a big surprise a few decades down the line.
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Second strike capability changes a lot of things, but you have to know where the SL's core systems are and be able to reach them.
Edit: SL's might not base from planets, either. Asteroid belts are much harder to target.

MTB said:
They may have values as traps, also the psychological version, to instill false (hopefully ...) confidence in the Tribute Fleet. We may try (or not) to present the image of a young race bend on revenge (that should be familiar for the SL) that doesn't have the tech or strategy to really pull it off. So, pull out all non-combatants from the orbitals and man them with volunteers. For example.
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Even so, we are better off luring them into the inner worlds where FTL doesn't work before we spring anything on them. So they can't run. If they hit the orbitals, and they hit back with what we really have, they may send a courier before we can stop them. If we are going for a ruse, unmanned stations stripped of all Practiced equipment would be better, but I don't think even then it is worth the cost.
 
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spikethehobbit said:
Even so, we are better off luring them into the inner worlds where FTL doesn't work before we spring anything on them. So they can't run. If they hit the orbitals, and they hit back with what we really have, they may send a courier before we can stop them. If we are going for a ruse, unmanned stations stripped of all Practiced equipment would be better, but I don't think even then it is worth the cost.
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They know in part what we have; we might be able to have a decisive battle when coming to the 'rescue' of an outer system orbital. Because that's what the SL expect from us.
Courier? If they don't have a stealthed courier waiting in outer system, after the download of Tombstone - or the not-download of Tombstone because we found all platforms, ...
I wouldn't bet on that level of incompetence.

Seems like next year will give incentive for some discussion, after we know what we can decide ...
 
If we expect them to focus on the fleet then a fighting retreat through the outer system drawing them through multiple orbital kill zones would work. The problem is that leaves Earth and Mars with only the fixed defences if they go FTL to a point on the limit sphere and head in system while our fleet has to cross the outer system in real space.

Then there is the fact that they aren't obliged to come in on the plane of the ecliptic at all - they don't need to go anywhere near out outer system positions even with a stately approach, space is big like that.

The only places we know they'll go are Mars and Earth and we don't know the order. Since they'll likely approach in real space we will be able to work that out out and position for an inner system intercept before they reach either.

Currently I'm thinking we want to start quite deep in the inner system, maybe Earth orbit, and head out to meet them quite slowly so if they come straight in we're still in the FTL exclusion zone when we meet and we haven't revealed our full speed. That does leave the outer system fortresses unsupported by mobile forces but against tactical FTL a small contingent won't make much difference. They will get a feel for our firepower if the take those positions, hopefully by taking damage. Personnel won't be able to get away when the fortresses fall but out there that could only happen if the Shiplords let it anyway.

Given that these constraints were known from the outset, our outer system forts must have been designed as sacrificial. One vital final year task is making sure they are purged of any useful intelligence.
 
Combine your approach with a fake retreat after they kill our outer system forts, so they don't feel the need to first dismantle everything before killing the fleet?
 
MTB said:
Combine your approach with a fake retreat after they kill our outer system forts, so they don't feel the need to first dismantle everything before killing the fleet?
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We don't know Shiplord psychology of course but I think not. If we start pulling back before battle is joined that puts the fleet further down the priority list and lets them take their time out there.
 
Re: Orbital placement.

You didn't know the limitations of Shiplord FTL and there was little reason to stop out-system being built previous to the Pattern's discovery. They also act as hubs for the outer system's resource gathering operations, and have a degree of nebulous morale value.

That said, since the discovery of the Pattern and your more focused discoveries of Shiplord tactics and capabilities over the last few years, it's not fair for me to say that there's been no discussion on the point of pulling them back. Due to their positioning and construction, they're some of the best armed and defended orbitals of the bunch after the Practice Trance and Miracle that upgraded them. With that in mind, you have some options for withdrawing them into the inner system, with difficulty dependent on where you want them placed and how much care you're taking to keep their internals fully intact.

The easy option is to pull them back as far as possible, reasonably swiftly, and file them off your assets tab for the invasion unless you get a Greater Success or higher. The moderate option is to pull them to the edge of the jump-in point, just inside the asteroid belt, and use them as staging points for you fleet. Poor rolls on that will leave you with some damage, but the only thing that'll hurt you badly in that case would be a critfail. As Tribute Fleet target priority seems to go Fleet > Orbitals > Secondary Inhabited Bodies > Orbit of Homeworld, it's not a bad strategic choice either.

The final option is also the hardest, which would be to pull the out-system orbitals all the way back to Mars or Earth (whichever is closer). You'd need good rolls to get away with this and have them remain functional, but if it works you'd be able to stage directly from Mars as your primary engagement point. This does mean letting the Shiplords into weapons range of one of your inhabited planets, however.
 
With the priorities given, option 2 "pull them to the edge of the jump-in point" sounds like it gives us options. If the psychological angle holds true.
 
spikethehobbit said:
The 'moderate' option looks best to me. It gives us a good chance of the orbitals still being both usable and helpful, without needlessly sacrificing them. For the record, I am not in favour of letting SL's near inhabited planets if we don't have to.
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Downside being if the SL attack this new staging ground in force (yeah!), it's very likely at least one ship / prepared courier can escape (edge of FTL denial area if I remember correctly).
Then it becomes another game.
 
Moving them to Mars is a lot of investment, but kills two shoggoths with one curse. Mars needs its defenses upgraded anyway, and these are already built miracle-level defensive platforms. It's worth throwing a lot of dice at.
 
There is that. Potential trap option that might allow us to win in one decisive battle versus strengthening existing defenses (Mars has strong defenses). Rides on 'potential' and 'might' assessment, I think.
 
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