The Practice War [Complete]

DarknessSmiles · Sep 16, 2019

[X] Into the Deep: The Shiplords have brought…something with them. Elil believes it is not more ships, and you are inclined to believe him. But if not ships, what? And why would it be focused on the Unisonbound? You need answers, and there is only one way to get them. Dive into the Shiplord web, and seek the truth. A success will require a save vs Reaction Shock, but you will be rolling with a significant bonus.

18scsc · Sep 16, 2019

[X] From the Field: You are alone amidst the Shiplord fleet, with no safe place to find harbour. If there is an unknown threat coming, it is simple sanity to seek allies. Return to First Fleet, and only then seek the truth. This will allow the carriers to recover and rebuild a drone shell. Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.

strauss · Sep 16, 2019

Raising Kittens said:
I'm thinking of 'the complete, total, and utter annihilation of all possible realities, to the point that nothing is all that remains, and then the evidence that anything happened is swept away, leaving nothing. It has always been like this.' I think that's pretty close to the 'greatest imaginable atrocity'; at least it's the greatest I can imagine.

Either your imagination is rather lacking or we hold very different views on things. To not make it exceedingly long I am thinking more along the lines of perfectly tailored and ever-changing torture; across infinite universes even more species evolve to grow intelligent, build things and spread solely for more souls to feed into that which are allowed to do as well as they can just to allow for ways to make the follow-up worse.

I reckon I could use my imagination to make that a greater atrocity(making it impossible to change is obvious for one), or even think of something else that surpasses it, but honestly I really don't want to.

Also for the record that is the kind of thing I meant ages ago by what would be required make the Shiplords justifiable(to me specifically YMMV) being something I have zero interest in reading about even as possibility.

uju32 · Sep 16, 2019

I've concluded that the reasonable response to being told you are the focus of roughly 50% of the Regular Fleet is not to stand unsupported and attempt to get a clearer look at the gun being pointed at you.
First you run. THEN you look.

VOTE
[X] From the Field: You are alone amidst the Shiplord fleet, with no safe place to find harbour. If there is an unknown threat coming, it is simple sanity to seek allies. Return to First Fleet, and only then seek the truth. This will allow the carriers to recover and rebuild a drone shell. Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.

EDIT

Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.

Not really. We are in our home system. There is a shitton of orbital and space construction visible to the Shiplords.

The range, power and resolution of the surveillance arrays that were built is unknown to them. Even if they assume we have warning, it's more plausible that the lagless surveillance arrays deeper in the system, along with the AIs they encountered, saw something and then radioed a message to the forces fighting, than that a force of around 200 have the sensor capacity to see that far out into space, while being combat capable.

Coda · Sep 16, 2019

uju32 said:
I've concluded that the reasonable response to being told you are the focus of roughly 50% of the Regular Fleet is not to stand unsupported and attempt to get a clearer look at the gun being pointed at you.

We wouldn't be unsupported. There would be 222 other Unisonbound providing cover and defense.

uju32 · Sep 16, 2019

Coda said:
We wouldn't be unsupported. There would be 222 other Unisonbound providing cover and defense.

The Unisonbound as a group are unsupported if they take the Into the Deep. I quote:

Fastest way to answers, but leaves you in the middle of the Shiplord fleet.

When you hear calls warning of sniper fire, you seek cover, THEN attempt to identify the sniper's location.
When you hear incoming artillery, you either run or dive for a foxhole before attempting to identify the direction.
When you ARE the artillery, you shoot and scoot before the enemy counterfire can range on you.

Intelligence is important.
Survival is even more so.
And the survival of this group is pretty important. We cannot be spared or replaced.

me.me.here · Sep 16, 2019

uju32 said:
Not really. We are in our home system. There is a shitton of orbital and space construction visible to the Shiplords.

The range, power and resolution of the surveillance arrays that were built is unknown to them. Even if they assume we have warning, it's more plausible that the lagless surveillance arrays deeper in the system, along with the AIs they encountered, saw something and then radioed a message to the forces fighting, than that a force of around 200 have the sensor capacity to see that far out into space, while being combat capable.

Moving in response to intention/intent or assets not in the solar system has absolutely nothing to do with the degree of sensor coverage in Sol and everything to do with metaphysical Practice/Insight bullshit, which is what that warning about giving being gifted with Practice is referring to.

uju32 · Sep 16, 2019

me.me.here said:
Moving in response to intention/intent or assets not in the solar system has absolutely nothing to do with the degree of sensor coverage in Sol and everything to do with metaphysical Practice/Insight bullshit, which is what that warning about giving being gifted with Practice is referring to.

Lagless surveillance.
We know it exists because Earth had FTL ships run down and destroyed after 1BOS.

The Shiplords have three possible choices
1)The 223 weapon platforms are both capable of squeezing enough combat power into a human sized platform to be an overwhelming combat threat against escorts and fighter drones, and to simultaneously be capable of ranged lagless surveillance.
2) Earth's ships have the space to both squeeze in enough combat power to be relevant in combat against Regular ships, and to have longrange lagless surveillance systems.
3) Earth has some sort of technological breakthrough that allows the massive number of space fortifications they can see to mount planetary/system surveillance arrays to see a significant distance beyond the SEZ terminator, which is allowing them to coordinate their fleet elements.

Which do you think is most plausible to a enemy with none of the indepth firsthand knowledge of Practice that we do?
Horses, not zebras.
Even the evidence of Practice does not imply the presence of Unison Platforms, or their sheer versatility.

me.me.here · Sep 16, 2019

uju32 said:
Lagless surveillance.
We know it exists because Earth had FTL ships run down and destroyed after 1BOS.

I'm not saying that we don't have lagless coverage.

I'm saying that that coverage does not extend to other star systems without a giant Hermes-station or ships with First Secret drives traveling between systems. Neither of which are things we have. Ergo, we do not have lagless outside of Sol. The threat is explicitly coming from assets outside of Sol.

Therefore, there is no possible way of discovering the threat using lagless sensors.

QED.

Lightwhispers · Sep 16, 2019

uju32 said:
Lagless surveillance.
We know it exists because Earth had FTL ships run down and destroyed after 1BOS.

We also know that the Shiplords are capable of detecting, at least to some degree, the use of Practice. Either option may alert them to things we'd prefer them to be unaware of for a bit longer.

That said, I want to see what's coming.
[X] Into the Deep: The Shiplords have brought…something with them. Elil believes it is not more ships, and you are inclined to believe him. But if not ships, what? And why would it be focused on the Unisonbound? You need answers, and there is only one way to get them. Dive into the Shiplord web, and seek the truth. A success will require a save vs Reaction Shock, but you will be rolling with a significant bonus.

Shard · Sep 16, 2019

[X] Into the Deep: The Shiplords have brought…something with them. Elil believes it is not more ships, and you are inclined to believe him. But if not ships, what? And why would it be focused on the Unisonbound? You need answers, and there is only one way to get them. Dive into the Shiplord web, and seek the truth. A success will require a save vs Reaction Shock, but you will be rolling with a significant bonus. Fastest way to answers, but leaves you in the middle of the Shiplord fleet.

uju32 · Sep 16, 2019

me.me.here said:
I'm not saying that we don't have lagless coverage.
I'm saying that that coverage does not extend to other star systems without a giant Hermes-station or ships with First Secret drives traveling between systems. Neither of which are things we have. Ergo, we do not have lagless outside of Sol. The threat is explicitly coming from assets outside of Sol.

Therefore, there is no possible way of discovering the threat using lagless sensors.
QED.

Where are you getting this idea that the Shiplords reserves are in another system? That was in no place stated during this fight.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it's been established that you can't maintain two-way lagless communication over multiple lightyears without a Hermes-type transmitter at one end. And Alpha Centauri is about 4 light years away.

They have to be within communications and sensor range of the ongoing fight, which precludes that sort of separation.

me.me.here · Sep 16, 2019

uju32 said:
Where are you getting this idea that the Shiplords reserves are in another system? That was in no place stated during this fight.

From the situation updates.

Snowfire said:
A third Shiplord Force has entered the star system, in support of the one engaged by the Third and Fourth Fleets of the FSN.

Snowfire said:
As of this time, 53% of the Regular Fleet has engaged FSN forces. One FTL capable FSN fleet remains in reserve.

Here's the bits from the latest one.

Snowfire said:
An additional strike group has entered Sol near the orbit of Jupiter, and the Third and Fourth Fleets of the FSN's mobile forces are preparing to engage. According to the order of battle obtained by Insight, roughly 35% of Regular Fleet is now either engaged, or about to be. Only one mobile Fleet remains undeployed, standing by to either support First Fleet or harass any assault against humanity's core worlds.

And here's the bit from the previous update.

Snowfire has consistently had Shiplord vessels jumping in when engaging/being deployed, and Regulars don't have the recharge rate to have been able to jump into Sol and then jump to a different part of Sol without the FSN having been able to also jump again.

There was also the assorted blurbs regarding the tactics/playbook known to be used when invading systems with 1st secret drives that came up before, but I'm not going to dig that out when there is a multitude of evidence readily available in just the last few threadmarks.

uju32 · Sep 16, 2019

me.me.here said:
From the situation updates.

Here's the bits from the latest one.

And here's the bit from the previous update.

Snowfire has consistently had Shiplord vessels jumping in when engaging/being deployed, and Regulars don't have the recharge rate to have been able to jump into Sol and then jump to a different part of Sol without the FSN having been able to also jump again.

There was also the assorted blurbs regarding the tactics/playbook known to be used when invading systems with 1st secret drives that came up before, but I'm not going to dig that out when there is a multitude of evidence readily available in just the last few threadmarks.

I'm looking at your citations.
Nowhere in anything we have been told does it say the Reserves are in another star system.
Just that they are not currently in Sol.

A staging point a couple light days or weeks out is entirely possible; likely even, given what we know of comm range.

Coda · Sep 16, 2019

Who was claiming another star system? Just outside of THIS one.

uju32 · Sep 16, 2019

Coda said:
Who was claiming another star system? Just outside of THIS one.

I quote:

me.me.here said:
I'm not saying that we don't have lagless coverage.
I'm saying that that coverage does not extend to other star systems without a giant Hermes-station or ships with First Secret drives traveling between systems. Neither of which are things we have. Ergo, we do not have lagless outside of Sol. The threat is explicitly coming from assets outside of Sol.
Therefore, there is no possible way of discovering the threat using lagless sensors.QED.

Note the implicit assertion.

I think the Shiplord Reserves are somewhere with a light month of the SEZ.
Possibly less.

EDIT
Pedantry warning
The edge of the solar system is disputed. Some claim the edge of the helipause, which is 120 AU.
Others assert the edge of the Oort Cloud, which extends 50,000 AU. And the most expansive are generally arguing about where solar gravity ends, which is around 2 light years.

Never did clarify with @Snowfire where the solar system boundary is in this AU. Was never relevant before.

me.me.here · Sep 16, 2019

uju32 said:
I think the Shiplord Reserves are somewhere with a light month of the SEZ.

The exact position doesn't matter because your belief that the Shiplords are marshalled somewhere both close enough to be inside our home system's sensor bubble yet far enough that they need to perform one more jump to be capable of engaging doesn't hold water. We aren't stupid enough to watch a Shiplord force jump in, organize, and jump part of it's forces closer without responding.

Snowfire said:
And yet even with that, perhaps even because of it, there was a moment of very human surprise when the Regular Fleet flashed into reality at the edge of the Sol system

Snowfire said:
The Two Twenty Three are being deployed alongside the FSN's First Fleet against the initial strike force from the Regular Fleet.

It's also in direct contradiction to the mention of the initial strike force taking us by surprise when they first entered the solar system.

Then again, you started this entire argument by trying to tell the GM they were wrong about the drawbacks of the options they presented, so it makes sense textual evidence isn't enough proof for you.

TheEyes · Sep 17, 2019

Don't have much time to talk today; will just say that I find @uju32's argument convincing:

[X] From the Field: You are alone amidst the Shiplord fleet, with no safe place to find harbour. If there is an unknown threat coming, it is simple sanity to seek allies. Return to First Fleet, and only then seek the truth. This will allow the carriers to recover and rebuild a drone shell. Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.

Enerael · Sep 17, 2019

uju32 said:
First you run. THEN you look.

I highly doubt that we will have the time for that. If we make it to our fleet before whatever it is triggers is already in question, with us taking a detour.

So the options we have:

Face the unknown while covered by the first fleet (if we roll good enough) (which couldn't stop two entire SL fleets jumping on top of them anyway, if they wanted us dead so much), which would provide some protection for us from SL ships should we be disoriented/weakened from The Thing but would leave us unable to erect defences against whatever it is (and given how big this seems, this could well leave some 223 dead I believe).

Or (probably, we might get lucky and SLs will be slow to fire it) getting hit without fleet support, but knowing by what exactly (RNG willing) and being able to prepare for it specifically. Also intel on their probably-anti-practice weapon. Also, I expect them to commit those two fleets simultaneously with firing this thing, which is something that Amanda might be able to discern from the Web, allowing her to Speak to counter The Thing without preventing SLs from commiting the rest of their forces.

@Snowfire do we have our courier craft nearby, or is it with the fleet? I ask because jumping away would hurt the First Fleet but probably allow us to dodge The Thing, which might be needed.

Killer_Whale · Sep 17, 2019

I also find @uju32 's argument convincing.

[X] From the Field: You are alone amidst the Shiplord fleet, with no safe place to find harbour. If there is an unknown threat coming, it is simple sanity to seek allies. Return to First Fleet, and only then seek the truth. This will allow the carriers to recover and rebuild a drone shell. Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.

acegunner · Sep 17, 2019

[X] From the Field: You are alone amidst the Shiplord fleet, with no safe place to find harbour. If there is an unknown threat coming, it is simple sanity to seek allies. Return to First Fleet, and only then seek the truth. This will allow the carriers to recover and rebuild a drone shell. Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.

Faraway-R · Sep 17, 2019

Inserted tally

I think I managed to aggregate the options correctly, but I'd like someone to spot me just in case.

13 vs 9 for "Curiosity vs Bravely Run Away"

Adhoc vote count started by Faraway-R on Sep 17, 2019 at 5:35 AM, finished with 115 posts and 23 votes.

13 people have voted
[X] Into the Deep: The Shiplords have brought…something with them. Elil believes it is not more ships, and you are inclined to believe him. But if not ships, what? And why would it be focused on the Unisonbound? You need answers, and there is only one way to get them. Dive into the Shiplord web, and seek the truth. A success will require a save vs Reaction Shock, but you will be rolling with a significant bonus.
- DragonParadox
- veekie
- tenchifew
- PurposefulZephyr
- me.me.here
- Donkey Hote
- Shwaggy
- saganatsu
- Himmelhand
- DarknessSmiles
- Lightwhispers
- Coda
- Shard
9 people have voted
[X] From the Field: You are alone amidst the Shiplord fleet, with no safe place to find harbour. If there is an unknown threat coming, it is simple sanity to seek allies. Return to First Fleet, and only then seek the truth. This will allow the carriers to recover and rebuild a drone shell. Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.
- Faraway-R
- JOJOBRN
- 18scsc
- uju32
- TheEyes
- Killer_Whale
- acegunner
- Amador
- Captainwolf
1 people have voted
[X] Unbowed We Stand: You know something is coming. You know that it's coming for you. A final FTL capable FSN fleet remains unengaged, and the true breadth of the Two Twenty Three's capabilities remains unused. Let yourself be bait, and when the trap closes, spring your own. Means facing an unknown threat, without knowing any details of it, but will not risk them realising that you'd become aware of it until it is already engaged. If chosen, pick one of the following options as your offensive focus.
-[X] Shattering Everest: Why waste time with carriers or escorts, when First Fleet is bleeding. Strike at the heart of the Shiplord formation, their heavy capital assets. Remove those, and First Fleet will be able to crush anything that remains.
- MTB

Snowfire · Sep 17, 2019

Faraway-R said:
13 vs 9 for "Curiosity vs Bravely Run Away"

I wouldn't call this entirely fair. Into the Deep is certainly curiosity, but From the Field is prioritizing survival over an immediate return. The intent there is to retreat to a safe location before you go looking. Creating a time gap and leaving the carriers to regenerate, but putting you in a safer place when whatever's coming hits you.

Brogatar · Sep 17, 2019

[X] From the Field: You are alone amidst the Shiplord fleet, with no safe place to find harbour. If there is an unknown threat coming, it is simple sanity to seek allies. Return to First Fleet, and only then seek the truth. This will allow the carriers to recover and rebuild a drone shell. Also carries the risk of alerting the Shiplords to your ability to see further into things than those not gifted with Practice should.
-[X] Upon Wings of Fire: Of course, you could attempt to hide that awareness by engaging the carriers on your way. Assault the heavy carriers that you have been keeping at bay, aiming to remove as many of them from the battle as possible in a single firing pass. Will reduce the effectiveness of any reformed drone shell, and the chance that the Shiplords will recognise your actions as reactive.

Snowfire · Sep 17, 2019

I will be closing this vote when I get home tonight. Call it four hours max. If you want to vote, that's your window.

The Practice War [Complete]

One and Many

We Shall Wake to Sanity

Planeswalker - Nicol Bolas

Polyglot of Chimera

Polyglot of Chimera