What we'd done to help humanity recover from the Sorrows had given the world stability, but it hadn't been able to give it peace, and it was only so strong as those who still believed in it. We hadn't been able to see a way to make it self-sustaining, and without us…it would slowly start to fracture.
So, Amanda and the first Circles were the inspiration for the Humanity 2.0 project then? Or was it a case of them implementing some of the features in a hidden Humanity 1.8 or 2.0 and the Circles gave the idea for the full monty that showed up in Humanity 2.0/2.0.1?

Speaking of, if one of the key things the Elder First did was modify people to be more cooperative/friendly/empathetic, how the heck were they cohesive enough for a collective label like "Elder First"?
 
Damn, cracking that tech would make humanity's infosec... I hesitate to say unbeatable, but really good.
The best way to defeat any lock is not to have the best lockpicking tools, but to go around a different way.

So, Amanda and the first Circles were the inspiration for the Humanity 2.0 project then? Or was it a case of them implementing some of the features in a hidden Humanity 1.8 or 2.0 and the Circles gave the idea for the full monty that showed up in Humanity 2.0/2.0.1?
It sounds to me like the Circles provided the tools necessary for 2.0.1.
 
Last edited:
So, Amanda and the first Circles were the inspiration for the Humanity 2.0 project then? Or was it a case of them implementing some of the features in a hidden Humanity 1.8 or 2.0 and the Circles gave the idea for the full monty that showed up in Humanity 2.0/2.0.1?
I think it's more like the Elders creating Windows XP, and Amanda doing the OS updates all the way to WIndows 8 and beyond.
 
I think it's more like the Elders creating Windows XP, and Amanda doing the OS updates all the way to WIndows 8 and beyond.
I think a slightly better analogy would be the Elders creating Windows 2000, and Amanda building XP (and, as you say, beyond) from that. Windows 2000 was a great foundational system but it was missing some parts to really make it usable for everyone. XP added those.
 
So would they have had us continue to mold and create the Circles? Even if that's the case, I feel like it'd be different, like a step removed or something (which would have it's own implications and consequences) to make that vote actually mean something. I do prefer the way things panned out because it felt so much more personal for Amanda to be so deeply involved. Like the difference between the First Seat musician of an orchestra versus the conductor I guess. Hopefully my poor memory of orchestra doesn't ruin the analogy.
[...]
Definitely making this the biggest what-if of the quest for me right now lol.
I suspect (but obviously can't prove) that an Elder First trained Amanda would be much more Practice-focused and less Diplomacy-focused than ours turned out to be. We obviously wouldn't have quite as tight a relationship with Mary, but more than that I suspect that the Circles would be less widespread and much more intensely focused on their Web capabilities than the togetherness and unification that we're seeing in the quest now.

Bottom line would be that morale would still be broken up among the Earthborn, the Marsborn, and the Spaceborn; we'd probably still be working on the Fifth Secret because Mary would either not be as close as she is; and we probably would be dealing with a lot more factionalism in Congress. On the flip side, we probably would have been able to Purify half the Tribute Fleet by ourselves. So, tradeoffs, but overall I'm very happy where we are. :p
 
So, tradeoffs, but overall I'm very happy where we are. :p
I definitely agree. A heavily united Humanity is worth a lot. And judging by the alien POVs we get, that unity seems... I want to say unique, but those alien POVs are ultimately limited. At the very least something that stands out. It's not just any species that gets to the point Humanity did in 50 or so years.
 
Last edited:
@Snowfire do we have any hints or clues about how the Elder Firsts were able to use Practice to make the spatial weirdness of the Vault itself? I get the feeling that the forest has been missed for the trees, because that's hella useful for all sorts of things. Not least of which is nearly unassailable bunkers. Or is that a psuedo-secret manifestation of gravity manipulation?

Also I suspect that the reason Amanda was given an indestructible ship is they thought she was going to use the LIFE approach to make herself into a super weapon
 
@Snowfire do we have any hints or clues about how the Elder Firsts were able to use Practice to make the spatial weirdness of the Vault itself? I get the feeling that the forest has been missed for the trees, because that's hella useful for all sorts of things. Not least of which is nearly unassailable bunkers. Or is that a psuedo-secret manifestation of gravity manipulation?

Also I suspect that the reason Amanda was given an indestructible ship is they thought she was going to use the LIFE approach to make herself into a super weapon
That... is a very good idea.

Although it's wildly at odds with the woman Amanda has evolved to be, and arguably the woman she was at the time. But that's true for reasons it might be hard for the Elder First to ever understand.
 
Oh hey, is this the first time we learned one of the Elder First's names?

It is, yes. They've never come up in the direct narrative before.

So would they have had us continue to mold and create the Circles? Even if that's the case, I feel like it'd be different, like a step removed or something (which would have it's own implications and consequences) to make that vote actually mean something. I do prefer the way things panned out because it felt so much more personal for Amanda to be so deeply involved. Like the difference between the First Seat musician of an orchestra versus the conductor I guess. Hopefully my poor memory of orchestra doesn't ruin the analogy.
I suspect (but obviously can't prove) that an Elder First trained Amanda would be much more Practice-focused and less Diplomacy-focused than ours turned out to be. We obviously wouldn't have quite as tight a relationship with Mary, but more than that I suspect that the Circles would be less widespread and much more intensely focused on their Web capabilities than the togetherness and unification that we're seeing in the quest now.

Bottom line would be that morale would still be broken up among the Earthborn, the Marsborn, and the Spaceborn; we'd probably still be working on the Fifth Secret because Mary would either not be as close as she is; and we probably would be dealing with a lot more factionalism in Congress. On the flip side, we probably would have been able to Purify half the Tribute Fleet by ourselves. So, tradeoffs, but overall I'm very happy where we are. :p

Essentially, these are pretty close to the truth. If you go back to the scene where Amanda made up her mind, you'll see that Mary had done a considerable amount of work on trying to work out what would happen, and how to avoid the collapse of the Circle as what it was becoming into something else if Amanda did actually choose to go. She had yet to find a solution, and in the end, there wasn't really one. Amanda was a unique confluence of the right person, in the right place, in the right time, with the right outlook. That she then Awoke to a Focus of Mending only made it more so.

The Elder First saw her as a possible unifier, but there were a couple of ways that could play out. In one of them, she studied with them, and learnt a great deal of how they had done what they'd done to the world after the Week of Sorrows. This would have lead to a very different form of Circle, and as Eyes predicts, not nearly as...all encompassing. You would have been able to get a lot more directly out of those, but...double edged sword. Humanity would still unify in the face of the Shiplord's return, but you'd have found it a lot harder to actually get some of the wide-area unity results that you did.

For one thing, Kazuki - who gave you those options in the first place - might not have existed. There's a lot more to this that I could delve into, but at the end of the day, it's a decision long past. That said, this is definitely the case:

I think it should be; it was definitely Amanda's single most life-altering decision, with the possible exception of her decision to run for president.

It was. Above even her decision to run for President, in fact. The choice to remain with the Circles, to help them grow and become something more, has shaped the world of the Practice War more than anything any President has ever done. It's what gives Amanda such power, even now, though not in the same way it might have. You're learning how to change that, but it takes time.

@Snowfire do we have any hints or clues about how the Elder Firsts were able to use Practice to make the spatial weirdness of the Vault itself? I get the feeling that the forest has been missed for the trees, because that's hella useful for all sorts of things. Not least of which is nearly unassailable bunkers. Or is that a psuedo-secret manifestation of gravity manipulation?

The Vault actually doesn't have any spatial weirdness to it - I think I made that clear a while back. It's just rather complicated, and finding your way around without Vigil can be challenging. The spatial weirdness was the Door which Amanda stepped into to open the Vault, which is now just a door. Whatever the Elder First invested in it is gone. Sorry if I've not been clear on that.

Also I suspect that the reason Amanda was given an indestructible ship is they thought she was going to use the LIFE approach to make herself into a super weapon

I can confirm that this is actually not the case. The Adamant was built for other reasons.

Really glad people seem to have enjoyed this update :)
 
Last edited:
Were the reasons more complicated than "we think it would be really badass to have an entire spaceship made out of impervious slabs of impenetrable kabongium?"

Because that would totally be a sufficient reason.

They actually were. Rather a lot more compelling, in fact.

"I want to bring back ramming as a valid military tactic. Bonus points if there's an attachment point for a sword."

:rofl::lol
 
The problem with knowledge purging is that the next researchers might be less fortunate than the ones that managed to purge the knowledge.
 
I mean, normally if in the process of designing a weapon I realize that the knowledge of what it's supposed to do will have to be purged, I'd destroy the weapo-

OH RIGHT, this is the weapon made out of impervious slabs of indestructible kabongium!

Never mind then.

We'll just have to hope they can't figure out what it was for.
 
I mean, normally if in the process of designing a weapon I realize that the knowledge of what it's supposed to do will have to be purged, I'd destroy the weapo-

OH RIGHT, this is the weapon made out of impervious slabs of indestructible kabongium!

Never mind then.

We'll just have to hope they can't figure out what it was for.
Vision.
 
Well, you'd think at some point we'd have asked Vision "so, that spaceship made of inviolate matter, was there anything special planned for it?"

If we still don't know what it does, presumably either Vision doesn't know, or wasn't going to be telling us in any timely fashion.
 
Well, you'd think at some point we'd have asked Vision "so, that spaceship made of inviolate matter, was there anything special planned for it?"

If we still don't know what it does, presumably either Vision doesn't know, or wasn't going to be telling us in any timely fashion.
Oh, I was thinking about the purged insight knowledge. And project insight tripping over something.
 
I mean, normally if in the process of designing a weapon I realize that the knowledge of what it's supposed to do will have to be purged, I'd destroy the weapo-

OH RIGHT, this is the weapon made out of impervious slabs of indestructible kabongium!

To be fair, Inviolate Matter can be destroyed. If you put enough of it together the internal energy matrix destabilises and the entire thing just falls apart, leaving the original matter as vulnerable as it always was. Of course, most Inviolate Matter uses a base of naval armour composite, so it's not exactly weak. But there's a difference between 'strong' and 'functionally invulnerable'.

Why the ship was built, and in the manner it was, remains beyond the knowledge of Vision. It was completed for a purpose, but the exact nature of that purpose was either not something she was ever told, or was purged from her databanks along with other information.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top