The Leech Lord (ASOIAF/SI) - Complete

I don't understand where you are getting pettiness from this. What is he supposed to do? I guess that's the real issue. What does your vision of Garlan the Gallant do?

I generally try to avoid telling other writers how they should have written their stuff, and try only to make a note of when something fails to work for me and why. Tempera's post here should cover most of the reasons.

If the idea is to forestall his own men from a given action, I don't see why it's vital to do so during the meeting with Stannis' negotiation party. They didn't open up with a recruitment pitch for his troops, after all, and he could call the meeting ended as soon as they started if they did. His actions seem bizarre as viewed from the outside, and in point of fact end up escalating matters when Alester is annoyed by his tone and words.
 
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Starting from the top...

Honestly, one of the things about this update that I found hard to swallow was Garlan having a hate-on for Stannis and Richard Horpe.

... He does? I don't think I ever really indicated such. I mean, he no doubts has a massive issue with Horpe on account of his killing Loras, but Stannis? I don't recall Garlan castigating the man in a non-public, non-political setting.

Garlan is a knight, one who stands out in the series for being one of Westeros' few decent guys; he'd know the score. Renly and Loras were soldiers who were trying to kill Stannis and his men in battle. Turns out one of Stannis' men didn't meekly lie down and die (who'd have thought!), and killed them first.
And Garlan made no bones about that. Instead he made comment on Stannis's conduct following the battle in such a way to deliver a statement to those present, and was made known just who exactly killed his brother.

You might consider it teling that as soon as Garlan start's discussing how miserly and stern Stannis is and how he is totally not going to be cool with any present, Alester Florent (Stannis's goodfather) gets right in there and saying "Guys, no. Don't believe this fucker. Look at the shit his family got us in."

You're mistaking the trees for the forest, I fear. Just because Garlan has a good heart, doesn't mean he's spineless or politically naive. He is after all suspected to play a part in Joffrey's death in canon, by chatting to Sansa long enough to be close to Joffrey and drop the crystal that his grandmother seemed to have lifted from her headpiece.

I just wouldn't expect a fighting man known as 'the Gallant' to take the fortunes of war so personally here when there's little (by feudal standards) cause for it.
The nickname was given to him by Willas as a child, as a way to avoid ridicule as their grand-uncle suffered. There's no indication besides skill that Garlan ever particularly cared for battles and tourneys, which is reflected in Loras being the more famed brother.

Given that, Alester Florent's words and continued insults just seem... out of place. Like an attempt to railroad the scene into conflict. Even if he's so stupid as to try and create conflict between the two factions at a negotiation, someone else from Stannis' side should have been quick to silence him.

Alester Florent is the same man who went over to Stannsi Baratheon following Renly's death and converted to the Red God post-haste, to the point that OTL Courtnay Penrose outright shamed him for it. He's also the same man who tried to bend the knee after Blackwater to win back his keep. Being bold and looking beyond his station are key character points, but your mistake is ignoring the greater setting at play. Both Garlan and Alester are making a play for the banners, with Catelyn Tully as a piece. Garlan focused more on Stannis, while Alester focused more on Mace with each hoping to strike a certain chord. Garlan went for chivalry and greed, while Alester tried to arouse an anti-Tyrell sentiment through honour and war-weariness.

If even a third of the Reach present went over to Stannis, then the Tyrells are walking a tightrope at Bitterbridge, especially considering that many of their key allies are now prisoners by Stannis (Fossoways, Cranes, etc...) and others (Hightowers, Redwyne) aren't even present. Currently the man of the hour is Randyll Tarly, who has the gravitas and persona and prestige at this moment in time to play the peacemaker, but Garlan isn't an idiot who ignores blood relations. Randyll Tarly's children are half-Florent, and he shares a good-father with Stannis Baratheon. Even if Tarly is letting play things out, he's not a man to be trusted.

And so Garlan needs to win back the banners, while Alester needs to take them away.

It's just that he goes a little too far to do it, and Garlan's restraint crumbles in the way of significant stress, grief and that fucking Florent bastard mud-sling my dead brother-

Ahem.

And so he acts, rashly and unwisely.

What I found interesting however, is that very few comments have looked at the third man in the room, aka Randyll Tarly.

I always found it a bit problematic that a warrior lord with notable ambitions in canon sided with Mace rather than his own in-laws. Granted the Florents are a pain in canon, but it was Tarly that held together matters at Bitterbridge in canon, capturing Stannis's emissaries and putitng the hurt on the foot left behind by the Reach and Stormlander men who went over to Stannis. I mean, if Stannis had won, then he'd be good-brother to the king himself. If Joffrey won... yay, he's served the Tyrells well?

Something to consider.

Another thing to consider is the fact that Petyr Baelish didn't make an appearance at all in the chapter except to confirm he was there.

Frankly, this is stupid too. It annoys me that the Florents seem to be portrayed as petty, incompetent and otherwise unlikable as a whole whenever they seem to come up in the series. The Florents being greedy, stupid, antagonistic arseholes all the time gets on my tits whenever I read the books, because it's the low-hanging fruit of creating tension and conflict.

I suppose the difference is that I don't think the Florents have been portrayed as petty, incomptenent or unlikable completely thus far. You might say that because we as readers and viewers might have had a stronger attachment to the Tyrells (after the Starks they're the closest things we have to a heroic family), but you're ignoring the in-game reality if you do.

The Tyrells aren't loved by all, and certainly not feared or followed like the Lannisters or Starks might. Time and time again we are told of instances where there are other families with better claims to Highgarden, where there are other families with great military strength, where there are other lords in the Reach who are more feared or respected than Mace Tyrell. We are shown instances of the Tyrells trying to gain more prestige and power, instances where the Tyrells try to leverage their advantages into net positives. We don't say much about it because they do it against the Lannisters, but there was a reason a great part of Stannis's army was made of men who once followed Renly, and there was a reason why not every lord in the Reach raised their banners for Mace and Renly.

House Florent isn't being petty or incompetent or even unlikeable in this chapter. They're presenting an undercurrent to Reach politics boldly in the light, castigating a family of stewards for shaming the honour of bloodlines of chivalry and knighthood, men who have centuries if not millenia of history to call upon. He shames them for providing their men and women into the beds of kings to claim benefit (sound familiar), and makes the implication that they have lead the Reach poorly in this time of crisis.

In a way, you might consider Garlan the Baelor Breakspear of House Tyrell currently. I'm not quite sure what comparison works for Alester Florent quite best, but I suppose you could compare him to Aegor Bittersteel's Bracken grandfather mixed in with a bit of Daemon himself. Seeking advancement and restitution both, as it were.
 
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I generally try to avoid telling other writers how they should have written their stuff, and try only to make a note of when something fails to work for me and why. Tempera's post here should cover most of the reasons.
...which is nice and all, but now we are just discussing different generalized takes on a character. I didn't see this as incompatible with Garlan the Gallant - beloved second son of one of the most powerful houses in the land, known for his affability...who has faced basically no substantial setbacks in his entire life but is suddenly confronted with the death of his beloved brother and a potentially existential threat against his House.

If the idea is to forestall his own men from a given action, I don't see why it's vital to do so during the meeting with Stannis' negotiation party. They didn't open up with a recruitment pitch for his troops, after all, and he could call the meeting ended as soon as they started if they did. His actions seem bizarre as viewed from the outside, and in point of fact end up escalating matters when Alester is annoyed by his tone and words.
It is grandstanding. Of course it isn't vital to do it during the meeting with the negotiation party, but the Tyrell's didn't get there way in terms of having the meeting privately. Because it was forced to become public with those important lords present, he tries to take advantage of the situation and use words from his opponent's mouth to directly discredit them. It's trying to make the best of a bad situation via the negative campaign ad of Westeros.

Alester isn't annoyed per se, he is the opposing political party launching their own ad in response.

Edit: Greeseer'd.
 
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Garlan needed Catelyn, a neutral-ish 3rd party, to reveal the information. If Horpe was rewarded, Garlan could spin it as dishonorable to reward the man that killed Stannis' own brother. If Horpe wasn't rewarded, then spin it as dishonorable not to reward a loyal knight. Garlan realizes that Olenna is 100% correct about the fuck up that supporting Renly was, but also knows that going home isn't the answer either. If they go home, the Florents will rally to Stannis, and their goes being the LP. What Garlan needs to do is forestall his men from joining Stannis and then make peace while the Reach is a cohesive whole. This would mean that the Tyrells are seen to be reasonable and honorable, and Stannis can't depose them without kicking up a stink. If Garlan let Stannis' ambassadors have free rein to speak, he fears that they would present a deal that divides the Reach into separate Houses for swearing fealty. This leads to bad things for House Tyrell.
 
If Garlan let Stannis' ambassadors have free rein to speak, he fears that they would present a deal that divides the Reach into separate Houses for swearing fealty.
>Preventing division in the reach.
>Stopping us from making different Reach kingdoms.

Garlan now confirmed worst person in the series for not letting us remake borders to our liking.
 
... He does? I don't think I ever really indicated such. I mean, he no doubts has a massive issue with Horpe on account of his killing Loras, but Stannis? I don't recall Garlan castigating the man in a non-public, non-political setting.

Shrugs all round. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it's the impression I ended up with. Little I can do about that.

The nickname was given to him by Willas as a child, as a way to avoid ridicule as their grand-uncle suffered. There's no indication besides skill that Garlan ever particularly cared for battles and tourneys, which is reflected in Loras being the more famed brother.

The name was given to him as a child, but the limited amount of screen-time Garlan gets and is spoken of in canon makes it relatively clear that it's an appropriate one. And in any case, I doubt if it would have stuck around for around 20 years if it wasn't.

Also, being called gallant doesn't solely refer to being heroic or brave, so the battles and tourney's not being particularly important in his mind isn't a big deal. More often, in my experience, it has to do with courtesy and gentility.

I suppose the difference is that I don't think the Florents have been portrayed as petty, incomptenent or unlikable completely thus far.

In canon or this story? I'll agree that it hasn't happened overly much so far in the case of the latter, but they haven't appeared much either, and Alester's choice of words when he heads off Garlan didn't appear to do his character much in the way of favours from how canon portrays the Florents, so I hope the leaping to conclusions isn't exactly incomprehensible.
 
Just realize I might have fucked up badly on several things.

According to Catelyn's chapters in Clash of Kings, Randyll Tarly rode east with Renly to fight against Stannis, as did Matthis Rowan, another of Mace's strong supporters. Brienne was meant to ride side by side with Loras in the van carrying Renly's banner, and Randyll Tarly wanted the van but was denied it.

I think I'm going to have to mentally excuse this as Randyll having been one of those able to escape as he was denied the van in favor of Loras Tyrell, while Matthis was captured. I'm also have to figure out what to do with Robar Royce, who as a Valesman has no defense as regarding his allegiences. I also think I'm going to have to kill Brienne off-screen.

Damn, mistakes. Mistakes everywhere.

Edit:

Changes have been made in Chapter 17 (fixing references regarding Loras), Chapter 18 (stuff with Catelyn and Brienne), Chapter 26 (fixing reference to Brienne).
 
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Just realize I might have fucked up badly on several things.

According to Catelyn's chapters in Clash of Kings, Randyll Tarly rode east with Renly to fight against Stannis, as did Matthis Rowan, another of Mace's strong supporters. Brienne was meant to ride side by side with Loras in the van carrying Renly's banner, and Randyll Tarly wanted the van but was denied it.

I think I'm going to have to mentally excuse this as Randyll having been one of those able to escape as he was denied the van in favor of Loras Tyrell, while Matthis was captured. I'm also have to figure out what to do with Robar Royce, who as a Valesman has no defense as regarding his allegiences. I also think I'm going to have to kill Brienne off-screen.

Damn, mistakes. Mistakes everywhere.

Edit:

Changes have been made in Chapter 17 (fixing references regarding Loras), Chapter 18 (stuff with Catelyn and Brienne), Chapter 26 (fixing reference to Brienne).
Couldn't Brienne just have been captured?
 
Couldn't Brienne just have been captured?

She would have likely gone berserk upon witnessing Renly's death though, and likely died fighting.

I really can't see her getting out of that alive. And if she did, where would she go? To the Lannisters as a mirror for wrathfully Lora's maybe?
 
She would have likely gone berserk upon witnessing Renly's death though, and likely died fighting.

I really can't see her getting out of that alive. And if she did, where would she go? To the Lannisters as a mirror for wrathfully Lora's maybe?
We have already had like three or so characters get knocked unconscious in a battle and get captured. So @Droman if you don't want to kill Brienne I don't see any reason why you need to do so. Hell if you don't think its reasonable that she survived in the vanguard you can just say that butterflies made Renly annoyed with her or something and gave her a different position.
 
We have already had like three or so characters get knocked unconscious in a battle and get captured. So @Droman if you don't want to kill Brienne I don't see any reason why you need to do so. Hell if you don't think its reasonable that she survived in the vanguard you can just say that butterflies made Renly annoyed with her or something and gave her a different position.

Eh, there were a lot of people already captured, and the beserker woman cutting her way to Renly's unmoving body is probably not going to be one of them.
 
Just realize I might have fucked up badly on several things.

According to Catelyn's chapters in Clash of Kings, Randyll Tarly rode east with Renly to fight against Stannis, as did Matthis Rowan, another of Mace's strong supporters. Brienne was meant to ride side by side with Loras in the van carrying Renly's banner, and Randyll Tarly wanted the van but was denied it.

I think I'm going to have to mentally excuse this as Randyll having been one of those able to escape as he was denied the van in favor of Loras Tyrell, while Matthis was captured. I'm also have to figure out what to do with Robar Royce, who as a Valesman has no defense as regarding his allegiences. I also think I'm going to have to kill Brienne off-screen.

Damn, mistakes. Mistakes everywhere.

Edit:

Changes have been made in Chapter 17 (fixing references regarding Loras), Chapter 18 (stuff with Catelyn and Brienne), Chapter 26 (fixing reference to Brienne).
not mistakes... opportunities, opportunities everywhere...
 
What I found interesting however, is that very few comments have looked at the third man in the room, aka Randyll Tarly.

I always found it a bit problematic that a warrior lord with notable ambitions in canon sided with Mace rather than his own in-laws. Granted the Florents are a pain in canon, but it was Tarly that held together matters at Bitterbridge in canon, capturing Stannis's emissaries and putitng the hurt on the foot left behind by the Reach and Stormlander men who went over to Stannis. I mean, if Stannis had won, then he'd be good-brother to the king himself. If Joffrey won... yay, he's served the Tyrells well?
I always thought Randyll was waiting for Aegon given his families Blackfyre ties.
 
TBH I always think that Mace whilst no genius is actually a fairly good Lord. If men like Randall Tarly obey him and by extension the various brats he hoists upon them and seems proud of their service he must at least be inoffensive. Then he seems a cheerful chap, it does wonders to like your boss.

He's ruled for at least two decades, in that time he has made a puppet king, a royal bethrotal, bested Robert Baratheon in battle and given each of his sons a Lordship or a place on the Kingsguard, his daughter a place besides the Ironthrone and his key men spots on the small council. Thats reasonably impressive. I'm not saying he is a secret mastermind just that Olenna's bitchy comments and Cersei's...Cerseiness and Tyrion whilst Mace was trying to have him executed seem a pretty flimsy set of reasons to judge his effectiveness. Mace may well actually be rather effective at making personal bonds with his bannermen and moving slowly but surely towards his aims reacting to rather massive situation changes seemingly unphased its just his methods are...less direct than the obey us or we will come kill you later even the Tullys and Starks rely on at the end of the day.
 
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I always thought Randyll was waiting for Aegon given his families Blackfyre ties.
What ties? There are literally none as far as we know.

TBH I always think that Mace whilst no genius is actually a fairly good Lord.
I wouldn't back that statement whatsoever. I think he's fairly mediocre, akin to an Edmure Tully.

If men like Randall Tarly obey him and by extension the various brats he hoists upon them and seems proud of their service he must at least be inoffensive.
I don't know what you mean here.

Then he seems a cheerful chap, it does wonders to like your boss.
Ask Tytos Lannister how much it matters to be a cheerful lord.

He's ruled for at least two decades, in that time he has made a puppet king, a royal bethrotal, bested Robert Baratheon in battle and given each of his sons a Lordship or a place on the Kingsguard, his daughter a place besides the Iron Throne and his key men spots on the small council. Thats reasonably impressive.

1. Mace was lucky Robert didn't do much after the Rebellion.
2. If any had anything to do with Renly's crowning it was Loras and Loras alone.
3. He didn't have anything to do with Joffrey's betrothal. Tyrion planned it, and Baelish delivered it.
4. Randyll Tarly beat Robert. Mace wasn't even on the field.
5. He gave Garlan Brightwater but didn't even hold it, which offended Randyll consequently. His daughter you can see above, and he spectacularly failed to put anyone on the small council for long.
 
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What ties? There are literally none as far as we know.
The Marcher lords largely supported Daemon Blackfyre due to their historic hatred of the Dornish. While it isn't 100% confirmed House Tarly supported them I consider it highly likely a house so bent on martial prowess would support the warrior king who hated the Dornish influence in court.
 
The Marcher lords largely supported Daemon Blackfyre due to their historic hatred of the Dornish. While it isn't 100% confirmed House Tarly supported them I consider it highly likely a house so bent on martial prowess would support the warrior king who hated the Dornish influence in court.

Eh. The Marcher lords by and large supported Daeron, by way of his son Baelor. It's telling that most of the Reach loyalists to the Blackfyre cause weren't actually on the borderlands as it were, which makes sense. Those lords would have remained in their lands to oversee the Dornish nearer to them, while the northern/central Reach lords and knights would have been with the garrisons deeper into the country.
 
If you're going to kill Brienne, at least make her last stand noteworthy, if not mildly legendary.

Maybe have a Bard witness it and do a ballad about it?
 
What ties? There are literally none as far as we know.

I wouldn't back that statement whatsoever. I think he's fairly mediocre, akin to an Edmure Tully.

I don't know what you mean here.

Ask Tytos Lannister how much it matters to be a cheerful lord.



1. Mace was lucky Robert didn't do much after the Rebellion.
2. If any had anything to do with Renly's crowning it was Loras and Loras alone.
3. He didn't have anything to do with Joffrey's betrothal. Tyrion planned it, and Baelish delivered it.
4. Randyll Tarly beat Robert. Mace wasn't even on the field.
5. He gave Garlan Brightwater but didn't even hold it, which offended Randyll consequently. His daughter you can see above, and he spectacularly failed to put anyone on the small council for long.

I'm not saying he is brilliant just if he was the gross incompetent people seem to think he is he wouldnt know to let Randall do the fighting, place Loras with Renly to counteract Stannis hating the Tyrells and being married to a Florent (to squire that is, its not known if Mace is aware of Loras' sexuality but the rest of the family seem to know so its not impossible but Loras would be too young at the time to be sure enough to bank on him and Renly becoming lovers later) accept Tywin's offer and gamble on a new alliance before the old one was cold and generally at least approve workable plans. And idiot would fuck some of that up or have too much faith in their abilities to leave it all up to other actors. A not particularly bright man aware of his limitations and willing to use the tools at his disposal tends to do better than someone who is smart but overestimates their capabilities. I mean look at what a mess Cersei, Tyrion and Joffrey make of ruling King's Landing Mace would probably have left the defence planning to soldiers and spent his own time as a figurehead never doing stupid things like murdering Ned, provoking riots etc. Just by not being awful he is a step up from most of his counterparts.

(Also I like Edmure, he's the only one in the series who takes his feudal obligations seriously)

It's really interesting what can change here with Catelyn present. Is she going to try to broker a marriage with Robb and Margaery? It would certainly be a boon for the North gaining such a rich ally with deep resources and army/navy. Seems like a political move she'd try (especially since she lamented about such a match in canon) ;)

BTW, can't wait until Balon makes his move. I want to see the chaos it causes.

Such a match does a lot for the North and nothing at all for the Reach. Mace wanted his daughter to be Queen of the Seven kingdoms, not the lady of a poor, frozen half savage wasteland where even the Gods are wrong. If he bends the knee to Joffrey he gets Queen Margaery, if he does to Stannis there is Edmure Tully or an ancient Stormlands house or a bannerman to shore up his weakened position at home anything he gives the North is pissed away for Northern benefit.
 
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Such a match does a lot for the North and nothing at all for the Reach. Mace wanted his daughter to be Queen of the Seven kingdoms, not the lady of a poor, frozen half savage wasteland where even the Gods are wrong. If he bends the knee to Joffrey he gets Queen Margaery, if he does to Stannis there is Edmure Tully or an ancient Stormlands house or a bannerman to shore up his weakened position at home anything he gives the North is pissed away for Northern benefit.

Hell, the Reach is barely connected to the Riverlands, the Tyrells wouldn't even have a real border with their "allies."
 
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