The Leech Lord (ASOIAF/SI) - Complete

My apologies, judging tone is hard online.

It seemed like you were taking Matt Easton's video as a blanket 'Well, it can work it can work in this one instance, so I suppose it's fine'.
Hahaha, nope. If my amateurish stumbling in martial arts and historical accounts have taught me anything, it's that one shouldn't underestimate how fragile the human body can be when exposed to the cold hard ground and weapons.

The human body can be amazingly tough, but our ingenuity at designing things to kill it with easily surpasses it.
 
On the topic of what Stannis might or might not do:
On the one hand he is EXACTLY the kind of man who will toss political expedience out the window and enact 'justice' on anyone and everyone he can get hold of. While it will undoubtedly be scrupulously fair it's not going to be fun for those judged. E.g. I doubt he will be impressed by the lesser lords that crept off home abandoning their lords in the process.

On the flipside however completing your duties no matter the consequences is something that Stannis actually understands and approves of. Saying "I did my duty to my liege" probably would be enough for him assuming they followed that by bending the knee (within a reasonable time frame); after all something canon makes clear is that Stannis doesn't really want to be king. He's doing it because it's his duty as legitimate heir wether he likes it or not.

On the topic of him rewarding his brothers killer. Of course he would. He was a soldier in battle following his orders (he may not like him; brothers killer after all but he'd be fair none-the-less), when he says I'm busy I'll settle accounts later he means it. He's Stannis Baratheon perhaps the only man in the setting where "my word is my bond" is a real thing.
 
Honestly, one of the things about this update that I found hard to swallow was Garlan having a hate-on for Stannis and Richard Horpe. Garlan is a knight, one who stands out in the series for being one of Westeros' few decent guys; he'd know the score. Renly and Loras were soldiers who were trying to kill Stannis and his men in battle. Turns out one of Stannis' men didn't meekly lie down and die (who'd have thought!), and killed them first.

I just wouldn't expect a fighting man known as 'the Gallant' to take the fortunes of war so personally here when there's little (by feudal standards) cause for it. Given that, Alester Florent's words and continued insults just seem... out of place. Like an attempt to railroad the scene into conflict. Even if he's so stupid as to try and create conflict between the two factions at a negotiation, someone else from Stannis' side should have been quick to silence him.
 
Honestly, one of the things about this update that I found hard to swallow was Garlan having a hate-on for Stannis and Richard Horpe. Garlan is a knight, one who stands out in the series for being one of Westeros' few decent guys; he'd know the score. Renly and Loras were soldiers who were trying to kill Stannis and his men in battle. Turns out one of Stannis' men didn't meekly lie down and die (who'd have thought!), and killed them first.

I just wouldn't expect a fighting man known as 'the Gallant' to take the fortunes of war so personally here when there's little (by feudal standards) cause for it. Given that, Alester Florent's words and continued insults just seem... out of place. Like an attempt to railroad the scene into conflict. Even if he's so stupid as to try and create conflict between the two factions at a negotiation, someone else from Stannis' side should have been quick to silence him.

The Tyrells are a family that clearly care about and admire each other (except Olenna who tbh is just a bitter bitch imo annoyed that nobody gets how clever she is or listens to her and seem to get by mostly fine and is probably unbearable in a TL where she is proven right) and Loras allegedly stormed a fortress by his lonesome to save his sister.

The Florents are also famously bitter about the Tyrells getting highgarden and to a (wo)man almost shown to be complete pricks and eager to profit from Stannis' rule. They also have loud mouths and in one case decided to yell insults at Joffrey and be executed rather than bend the knee and save their lands and titles. Common sense is not a virtue they have, neither is competence. They are loyal and they are ambitious and some of them are brave. All of which means saying something stupid to undermine their hated rivals after scoring two humiliating wins over them is perfectly in character.
 
Anyways, the Tyrells' position is much more precarious this time around.

They're pretty much the only ones that can't pull the "just following orders excuse" and just tried to murder a bannerman.

Not to mention their natural allies are currently bleeding on the floor and are about to get another round of ass-kicking from the sea.
 
The Tyrells are a family that clearly care about and admire each other (except Olenna who tbh is just a bitter bitch imo annoyed that nobody gets how clever she is or listens to her and seem to get by mostly fine and is probably unbearable in a TL where she is proven right) and Loras allegedly stormed a fortress by his lonesome to save his sister.

I know, but that's a stupid justification, and with the exception of Mace, the Tyrells aren't portrayed as being stupid.

Again, Garlan is a Knight. A member of a fighting class in a culture where fighting in war isn't an unlikely prospect. He and other people who receive a similar upbringing (Loras, for example), aren't being portrayed very generously if they're trained from childhood in war and statecraft, and then hold grudges against other people for fighting back in battle.

The Florents are also famously bitter about the Tyrells getting highgarden and to a (wo)man almost shown to be complete pricks and eager to profit from Stannis' rule. They also have loud mouths and in one case decided to yell insults at Joffrey and be executed rather than bend the knee and save their lands and titles. Common sense is not a virtue they have, neither is competence. They are loyal and they are ambitious and some of them are brave. All of which means saying something stupid to undermine their hated rivals after scoring two humiliating wins over them is perfectly in character.

Frankly, this is stupid too. It annoys me that the Florents seem to be portrayed as petty, incompetent and otherwise unlikable as a whole whenever they seem to come up in the series. If Droman feels that a waste of space like Joffrey has a few redeeming qualities, then I'd hope to see some better handling of other characters across the board, too.

The Florents being greedy, stupid, antagonistic arseholes all the time gets on my tits whenever I read the books, because it's the low-hanging fruit of creating tension and conflict.
 
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How the hell did he not lose a hand, though, or at least a few fingers? Western longswords easily hack bone. People have found medieval skeletons that have had the full top of their skull shorn straight off by sword blows (though that may have been helped by the momentum of cavalry). I have trouble believing he would get away with gripping an full-length edged blade swung with strength at him and just walking away with a bleeding palm...
Not sure if it's been answered yet, but it's certainly possible.

European (and I presume Westerosi) longswords (and two-handed swords) weren't fully sharpened, and the lower part of the blade was usually dull. This was done because against an armored opponent, it was much more effective to grab one part of the blade and use the additional accuracy and leverage to stab the other guy in one of the openings in their armor.

With a proper gauntlet, you can (not easily, but it's possible) grab the dull part of the blade if you time it right, if you're close enough and if you don't mind possibly breaking a few bones in exchange for grabbing your opponent's sword while they're really not expecting it.

That said, I can see Randyll Tarly do just that and come away with barely a bruise to show for it.
 
I know, but that's a stupid justification, and with the exception of Mace, the Tyrells aren't portrayed as being stupid.

Again, Garlan is a Knight. A member of a fighting class in a culture where fighting in war isn't an unlikely prospect. He and other people who receive a similar upbringing (Loras, for example), aren't being portrayed very generously if they're trained from childhood in war and statecraft, and then hold grudges against other people for fighting back in battle.



Frankly, this is stupid too. It annoys me that the Florents seem to be portrayed as petty, incompetent and otherwise unlikable as a whole whenever they seem to come up in the series. If Droman feels that a waste of space like Joffrey has a few redeeming qualities, then I'd hope to see some better handling of other characters across the board, too.

The Florents being greedy, stupid, antagonistic arseholes all the time gets on my tits whenever I read the books, because it's the low-hanging fruit of creating tension and conflict.

Passions run hot with the Tyrells. Loras killed a few guards in the books after Renly died. Garlan's brother died and he was antagonized, even after multiple warnings.

The fighting class doesn't hold grudges? Lolwut? Westeros is nothing but grudges upon grudges for shit no one remembers.

Not a single person is going to just shrug off a siblings death. "Good kill Horpe. Gutted him real good."

Of course he'll be angry and irrational and want revenge.

As for the Florents. Not everyone wants to be a coward and suck up to the regime. Better to die with honor than live on your belly. I guess. And sometimes people are assholes that want to fight everyone.
 
Not sure if it's been answered yet, but it's certainly possible.

European (and I presume Westerosi) longswords (and two-handed swords) weren't fully sharpened, and the lower part of the blade was usually dull. This was done because against an armored opponent, it was much more effective to grab one part of the blade and use the additional accuracy and leverage to stab the other guy in one of the openings in their armor.

With a proper gauntlet, you can (not easily, but it's possible) grab the dull part of the blade if you time it right, if you're close enough and if you don't mind possibly breaking a few bones in exchange for grabbing your opponent's sword while they're really not expecting it.

That said, I can see Randyll Tarly do just that and come away with barely a bruise to show for it.
Randyll explicitly grabbed the sharpened edge of the blade, though, considering that he ended up bleeding across his arm. Droman did add some more details to make it more plausible, but... Well, I've said my two stags on TV matter.

Wonder if he can still his hand properly after that, though... Cutting wounds across the palms can impact functionality something fierce.
 
With a proper gauntlet, you can (not easily, but it's possible) grab the dull part of the blade if you time it right, if you're close enough and if you don't mind possibly breaking a few bones in exchange for grabbing your opponent's sword while they're really not expecting it.

That said, I can see Randyll Tarly do just that and come away with barely a bruise to show for it.

Why can you see that, out of curiosity? Randyll Tarly is a superb battlefield commander, but that doesn't make him an amazing hand with a blade any more than it does for Tywin Lannister.

Garlan, by comparison, regularly trains against multiple opponents with a sword. I find it hard enough to believe that Randyll got between him and his target fast enough to stop him killing Alester without pulling off barehanded blocking feats in the process.

The fighting class doesn't hold grudges? Lolwut? Westeros is nothing but grudges upon grudges for shit no one remembers.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I'm not arguing that Westeros should be all sunshine and rainbows because everyone's willing to let bygones be bygones, I'm arguing that Garlan is portrayed as more mature and intelligent than he's shown here, and the scene's tension and conflict therefore comes off as forced.

If it were Mace present doing the negotiating in his son's place, for example, this would make more sense.

Not a single person is going to just shrug off a siblings death. "Good kill Horpe. Gutted him real good."

Way to put words in my mouth. Get back to me when you're interested in engaging in a reasoned debate, otherwise don't waste my time.

As for the Florents. Not everyone wants to be a coward and suck up to the regime. Better to die with honor than live on your belly. I guess. And sometimes people are assholes that want to fight everyone.

Woah. Careful you don't cut yourself on your own edginess, mate.
 
Randyll explicitly grabbed the sharpened edge of the blade, though, considering that he ended up bleeding across his arm. Droman did add some more details to make it more plausible, but... Well, I've said my two stags on TV matter.

Wonder if he can still his hand properly after that, though... Cutting wounds across the palms can impact functionality something fierce.

Rule of cool? This isn't canon after all; hell in real life sometimes a array of bizarre and unrepeatable events combine so that the impossible becomes merely improbable take for example people falling from (high) flying planes without a parachute and surviving (uninjured even) anyway. In real life sometimes things really do just turn out well.
 
Honestly, I think he grabbed near the handle before it got up to speed. Especially since that's an actual thing people did back then.
 
It's really interesting what can change here with Catelyn present. Is she going to try to broker a marriage with Robb and Margaery? It would certainly be a boon for the North gaining such a rich ally with deep resources and army/navy. Seems like a political move she'd try (especially since she lamented about such a match in canon) ;)

BTW, can't wait until Balon makes his move. I want to see the chaos it causes.
 
I know, but that's a stupid justification, and with the exception of Mace, the Tyrells aren't portrayed as being stupid.

Again, Garlan is a Knight. A member of a fighting class in a culture where fighting in war isn't an unlikely prospect. He and other people who receive a similar upbringing (Loras, for example), aren't being portrayed very generously if they're trained from childhood in war and statecraft, and then hold grudges against other people for fighting back in battle.

The grudge isn't for fighting back in battle. The grudge is for killing his brother. Yes, Loras and Garlan understand war. Yes, Garlan is reasonably mature and level headed. It's still his brother. The fact that he was restrained as he was shows just how mature and level-headed he is as a person. When Robb's brothers died, he fucked his life and kindgom away.

Frankly, this is stupid too. It annoys me that the Florents seem to be portrayed as petty, incompetent and otherwise unlikable as a whole whenever they seem to come up in the series. If Droman feels that a waste of space like Joffrey has a few redeeming qualities, then I'd hope to see some better handling of other characters across the board, too.

The Florents being greedy, stupid, antagonistic arseholes all the time gets on my tits whenever I read the books, because it's the low-hanging fruit of creating tension and conflict.

I've never noticed that. Sure, some of the Florents are scum, but I haven't seen enough of the family to damn them as a whole. Most families have some scum here and there. Calling them incompetent and unlikable as a whole is a bit of a stretch.
 
The grudge isn't for fighting back in battle. The grudge is for killing his brother. Yes, Loras and Garlan understand war. Yes, Garlan is reasonably mature and level headed. It's still his brother.

I'm not exactly arguing that he should be pal'ing around with Horpe and Stannis. I'm saying that he's acting very strangely. In a way that makes little sense.

Let's take a look at his behaviour prior to when Alester starts talking shit:

Chapter 26: Bitterbridge

"I thank Ser Garlan," said the Tully born matron as she nodded to the young Tyrell knight "I thank you, and offer my condolences. I was not personally a witness to your good brother's passing, but he led Lord Renly's van bravely and fought fiercely at the front. I-"

"Who killed him, my lady?"

At that Catelyn Tully hesitated.

"Ser-"

"Please, my lady. I would know."

Nothing to take issue with so far. His brother and Renly were killed, and he wants to know by who.

"Your brother was very brave, Ser. He cut down half a dozen knights I am told, fierce fighters all. Knights hailing from House Follard, House Penny, House Scales, House Suggs, House Whitewater, even the lord of House Sweet-"

"My lady," said Garlan again, his voice a little colder "I would have answer."

"... Ser Richard Horpe was the man, I was told. He fought him when both were afoot and cut him down amidst the entrenchments. Him and Renly as well, when Renly waded into the melee himself after Ser Loras's death reached him."

At that murmurs broke out amongst those assembled, as Mace Tyrell drew inward to himself and Garlan Tyrell's lips tightened into a frown.

"And how did the Lord Stannis honour him for these daring feats? A promise of a lordship? A highborn bride? Truly, I am curious. What was the giftgiven for my brother's life?"

Garlan starts talking shit about Horpe, in the strangest way possible. I assume from the antagonistc context and word choice that 'daring feats' is supposed to be in a vaguely sarcastic tone, though I can't rightly understand why. Loras was a decent swordsman, and both he and Renly were armed and armoured. It might not have been as impressive as perhaps cutting down the Mountain would be, but it's still not exactly something to sneer at.

And demanding what rewards his brother's killer was supposedly given came a little out of left field. Is it universal to give out tangible rewards to everyone who killed someone of note, to the extent that it's expected? If so, why's Garlan getting up in Catelyn's face about it over an established custom? If not, why's he flinging shit at the opposing side for doing better than the men of his own army?

There's nothing technically super-illogical about this, granted. I don't have a problem with Garlan grieving for family, or not being on great terms with the people who killed them. But the way it's executed seems forced, making it seem much more like Garlan's having a go at Catelyn because Droman needs this scene to end in conflict and tension for plot reasons.

Again Catelyn Tully hesitated, but answered without a second prompting.

"He has given him nothing yet, Ser Garlan. His Grace has indicated that all accounts and matters will be resolved when the war is ended. Ser Richard has chosen to abide by that."

At that more murmurs broke out, and Garlan Tyrell could see the greedy looks on the faces of the Florents, the looks of concerns among those Stormlanders who had declared for Renly first.

"Nothing," murmured Garlan nothing, as a bitter laugh escaped him "He gave him nothing."

Garlan is apparently aggrieved his brother's and brother-in-law's killer didn't get shinies for it. Seriously, whose side is he on?

"Ser-"

"No, my lady Catelyn!" said the Tyrell knight with a wave of his hand to cut her off "You have said it clearly, and I would make those present understand it. Ser Richard Horpe, a knight of Lord Stannis Baratheon. A man who can be named his champion, if the Lady Stark's words are true. A man who felled my brother, a man who felled Stannis's own brother! And what reward has he received for his great efforts? A highborn bride, and perhaps a lordship as well? Brienne of Tarth went east with Renly, did she not? A fitting bride for a loyal man. But we do not hear such from the lady, do we? We hear nothing at all, nothing but promises that accounts will be settled, that problems will be resolved."

As above. Go ahead and tell me this is how people react when their family members get killed.

Personally, I don't think Garlan would be spoiling for a fight at this meeting. But that's just my interpretation, and if he was, but behaved in a more realistic manner, I'd accept it. As it is, this stands out to me as poorly written.

He let his words linger in the air, a silence following in their wake until he chose to continue.

"Tell me, you knights and lords of the realm. Does that seem a lord to follow? A king to serve? One who does not even reward his most leal servants? How will you then fare, you who raised your banners against him? Do you think he will forget your actions? Do you think he will let you slink away to your homes, as some have already done? That you can but hide in your holdfasts, and pretend all will be forgiven?"

Garlan's apparently going to satisfy himself with trying to poison the well of Stannis' supporters over how Stannis didn't immediately descend on Horpe and shower him with rubies and brides. How petty.

Nothing illogical about pettiness, either, but it still.

When Robb's brothers died, he fucked his life and kindgom away.

Ignoring that it isn't at all equivalent to compare Robb's younger brothers who were captured and murdered (as far as he knows, anyway) outside of battle by a man he considered a brother, to Garlan's family that picked a fair fight and lost it, I'm not suggesting that Garlan not be in mourning. Or be emotional rather than logical. Or even be on the verge of pissing away any chance of a peaceful alliance with Stannis (though this last one I wouldn't expect of him from what we know of him in canon).

I'm calling out a scene that makes little sense as written, that's all.

I've never noticed that. Sure, some of the Florents are scum, but I haven't seen enough of the family to damn them as a whole. Most families have some scum here and there. Calling them incompetent and unlikable as a whole is a bit of a stretch.

Le shrug. I have. I can't quite recall anything in the way of a redeeming qualities from Martin's portrayal of them.

For Christ's sake, he even hammers it home via the Halo Effect by making them look ugly/physically unattractive, what with their distinctive 'large ears'.
 
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And demanding what rewards his brother's killer was supposedly given came a little out of left field. Is it universal to give out tangible rewards to everyone who killed someone of note, to the extent that it's expected? If so, why's Garlan getting up in Catelyn's face about it over an established custom? If not, why's he flinging shit at the opposing side for doing better than the men of his own army?
I'm guessing that it's something like, "My brother's life weren't worth rewarding the man who killed them?"
 
Garlan is apparently aggrieved his brother's and brother-in-law's killer didn't get shinies for it. Seriously, whose side is he on?
As above. Go ahead and tell me this is how people react when their family members get killed.
...how did you entire miss that he was making a political move in that scene? Portraying Stannis as a miserly cunt to try to forestall some of the defections.

The fact that he was capable of leading this army and engaging in such things despite the death of his beloved brother is a testament to how put together he is, compared to Robb as Cxjenious pointed out.
 
...how did you entire miss that he was making a political move in that scene? Portraying Stannis as a miserly cunt to try to forestall some of the defections.

The fact that he was capable of leading this army and engaging in such things despite the death of his beloved brother is a testament to how put together he is, compared to Robb as Cxjenious pointed out.

I... didn't?

I noted how he was trying to spin this to tar Stannis:

Garlan's apparently going to satisfy himself with trying to poison the well of Stannis' supporters over how Stannis didn't immediately descend on Horpe and shower him with rubies and brides. How petty.

Nothing illogical about pettiness, either, but it still.

Though Garlan launched into this tirade, it should be noted, immediately upon meeting with Catelyn. That doesn't shout, to me, the act of a smooth political operator. Garlan's tone and word choice makes him look sulky and immature to me, and I'm not convinced if this is supposed to forestall his men of anything.

But, again, this criticism is for Droman's sake, and intended to be constructive. He can take it or leave it as he wishes.
 
I... didn't?

I noted how he was trying to spin this to tar Stannis:



Though Garlan launched into this tirade, it should be noted, immediately upon meeting with Catelyn. That doesn't shout, to me, the act of a smooth political operator. Garlan's tone and word choice makes him look sulky and immature to me, and I'm not convinced if this is supposed to forestall his men of anything.

But, again, this criticism is for Droman's sake, and intended to be constructive. He can take it or leave it as he wishes.
I don't understand where you are getting pettiness from this. What is he supposed to do? I guess that's the real issue. What does your vision of Garlan the Gallant do?

Of course it was supposed to forestall his men. How effective it will be is questionable, of course, but that should be a given at this point given the pressure at play.
 
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