The Leech Lord (ASOIAF/SI) - Complete

And then you're stuck with holding the North against the White Walkers while nearly everyone there hates you. Excellent plan.

Taking power is worth it in stable times. Smart men don't risk upsetting the boat when shit is about to go down and it isn't like being the Lord of the Dreadfort is much worse than being Lord Paramount of the North. Besides the Lannisters may already be done for since Tyrion isn't there to pull King's Landing out of the fire when Stannis comes and both Tywin and Jaime are prisoners.

Don't want to go off on a tangent here, but the general idea is that being an SI, you would execute Roose's plan more smoothly from the start. Agree that now is probably too late to make the moves needed to consolidate power over the North. However, taking power and upsetting the feudal hierarchy only occurs in unstable times usually; is why Cao Cao was told that he would make a capable minister in times of peace and an unscrupulous hero in times of war. One dynasty replacing another on a throne has seldom been done peacefully when we look at the grand span of history.

The white walkers could be used to as a reason to unite the North under the Boltons in an alternate timeline where (from the first) Droose has been planning to capture the North.

Why would he want to be Lord Paramount? Seriously what does that give him personally that he doesn't have already? Aside from more responsibility and more enemies plus
And even if there was a different way to take power the question remains. Why? Why do you want power? Power for its own sake is worthless. If none of the things you actually want to have or do requires being Paramount then its a distraction from the things you actually want to do at best and a liability or even death sentence at worst.

I feel that this is the stumbling block that I'm having understanding Droose's motivations. Why is Droose so loyal to the Starks as to risk death or dismemberment? What gives? It really is an uncanny degree of loyalty. What is he, Jeremiah Gottwald? It can't be from some sense of morality, because his actions have directly lead to the deaths of thousands already. So why?

I could understand taking the risks to become Lord Paramount or hell, King in the North. Why wouldn't you want to reign? At least, if you were going to take all the risks and stain your soul to pay the costs, might as well get the throne in return, no?

TL; DR:

I feel that it boils down to a matter of personal preference, but not gonna lie: why Droose is so loyal to the Starks just confounds me. Like I mentioned earlier, this is probably what gives Droose an advantage in the political game with Varys, Littlefinger, Cercei because what logically you'd think his goals would be and what his goals actually are are like at 180 degrees from each other. Though I think Varys suspects something amiss...
 
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It is outright stated in several chapters that his primary goal is to end the war as fast as possible while retaining as much of the Northern strenght as possible. If he went the betrayal route he would have had to fight a civil war in the North, face a bunch of surly and outright rebellious bannermen plus get called to fight for the Lannisters in their fights against all comers for their throne. So far he attempts to to follow the path of least possible bloodshed. He succeded in some respects, he failed in others but the important thing that there is still a Northern Army to turn when the Walkers sweep forth plus reserves to call upon unlike the utter wreck that is the Northern fighting strenght in cannon at this point.
 
Don't want to go off on a tangent here, but the general idea is that being an SI, you would execute Roose's plan more smoothly from the start. Agree that now is probably too late to make the moves needed to consolidate power over the North. However, taking power and upsetting the feudal hierarchy only occurs in unstable times usually; is why Cao Cao was told that he would make a capable minister in times of peace and an unscrupulous hero in times of war. One dynasty replacing another on a throne has seldom been done peacefully when we look at the grand span of history.

The white walkers could be used to as a reason to unite the North under the Boltons in an alternate timeline where (from the first) Droose has been planning to capture the North.



I feel that this is the stumbling block that I'm having understanding Droose's motivations. Why is Droose so loyal to the Starks as to risk death or dismemberment? What gives? It really is an uncanny degree of loyalty. What is he, Jeremiah Gottwald? It can't be from some sense of morality, because his actions have directly lead to the deaths of thousands already. So why?

I could understand taking the risks to become Lord Paramount or hell, King in the North. Why wouldn't you want to reign? At least, if you were going to take all the risks and stain your soul to pay the costs, might as well get the throne in return, no?

TL; DR:

I feel that it boils down to a matter of personal preference, but not gonna lie: why Droose is so loyal to the Starks just confounds me. Like I mentioned earlier, this is probably what gives Droose an advantage in the political game with Varys, Littlefinger, Cercei because what logically you'd think his goals would be and what his goals actually are are like at 180 degrees from each other. Though I think Varys suspects something amiss...

As it was said, the SI's goal was never to reign over anything, just to have as many soldiers to fight the white walker with as possible. That's easier if the Stark retain command and their army is kept as strong as possible (the Red Wedding butchered a ton of soldiers, not just the leaders, and the North would fight better under a Stark than under any other leader) and the Lannister lose the throne (both because the Stark won't stop fighting in the south until the Lannister are gone, and because Canon shows that the Lannister wouldn't care about the invasion, whereas Stannis would). So really, being loyal to the Stark is sensible because the fight against the frozen fae would be easier if the Si was a trusted advisor telling Robb what to do, while Robb's Starkness would make the rest of the North follow Robb's commands without fuss.

In addition to these reasons though, I would like to ask what is "logical" about becoming king being a goal? I mean it seriously: if you are a feudal lord, you are a king in all but names over your land - the only difference with an actual king beng that you have somebody above you who could give you orders once in a while. That might be a pain if that someone is a mad person like Joffrey or Aerys, true, but if you know that your lord paramount/king are people you can stand taking orders from (very rarely, mind, usually only when war with a common enemy is involved) then... what exactly is there to gain from trying to uxurp them?

As in, I can see why a person like Cersei would not understand that, but to a modern mindset, the difference between a great lord and a king is so minimal, it might as well not exist. So, why would attempting to become a king, with all the hassle and danger that would require instead of just being happy with being the absolute ruler of a slightly smaller portion of land, be the logical choice? I really don't see it.
 
As it was said, the SI's goal was never to reign over anything, just to have as many soldiers to fight the white walker with as possible. That's easier if the Stark retain command and their army is kept as strong as possible (the Red Wedding butchered a ton of soldiers, not just the leaders, and the North would fight better under a Stark than under any other leader) and the Lannister lose the throne (both because the Stark won't stop fighting in the south until the Lannister are gone, and because Canon shows that the Lannister wouldn't care about the invasion, whereas Stannis would). So really, being loyal to the Stark is sensible because the fight against the frozen fae would be easier if the Si was a trusted advisor telling Robb what to do, while Robb's Starkness would make the rest of the North follow Robb's commands without fuss.

In addition to these reasons though, I would like to ask what is "logical" about becoming king being a goal? I mean it seriously: if you are a feudal lord, you are a king in all but names over your land - the only difference with an actual king beng that you have somebody above you who could give you orders once in a while. That might be a pain if that someone is a mad person like Joffrey or Aerys, true, but if you know that your lord paramount/king are people you can stand taking orders from (very rarely, mind, usually only when war with a common enemy is involved) then... what exactly is there to gain from trying to uxurp them?

As in, I can see why a person like Cersei would not understand that, but to a modern mindset, the difference between a great lord and a king is so minimal, it might as well not exist. So, why would attempting to become a king, with all the hassle and danger that would require instead of just being happy with being the absolute ruler of a slightly smaller portion of land, be the logical choice? I really don't see it.
The assumption that obtaining as much power as possible is the only reasonable thing to do reminds me a lot of this quote from the Giant over at OotS:

Well, I would say that those sort of examinations of power are more a function of the D&D game itself than anything that especially interests me. I address them by way of critiquing the game, and especially the people who play it. D&D, as an abstraction of reality, tends to simplify the messy analog world with discrete blocks of numbers that can be compared and contrasted. A character's life choices can then be sorted as "optimal" or "suboptimal" easily, and those who favor optimization techniques are quick to denigrate any choice that is suboptimal. And then they'll go a step further and tell me that I am writing the story wrong because the characters in it do not follow the current trendy optimization technique, or I dare to show a fighter as being the equal of a wizard.

Of course, the real world doesn't work like that. Who's more powerful, a fighter or a wizard? Who's more powerful, an art therapist or a tree surgeon? It's a nonsense question, because "power" in the sense that D&D players use the word does not really exist in our world. Therefore, it's a fairly meaningless thing to worry too much about. In the real world, power takes many forms, but none of them "trump" all the others the way that people think that wizards trump all other classes. Power is whatever helps you get what you want, and not everything that represents power to one person necessarily has any use to anyone else. Who's more powerful, a fully armed marine or a fast food worker? What if I told you that all the marine wants is to sleep next to her husband who's 7000 miles away, something the fast food worker does every single night? Now who's more powerful? Who optimized their life to get what was really important to them? Who's more powerful, an investment banker or a guy who gets to work in his pajamas? There are no clear cut answers, and everyone's choices are their own to make—and not for others to judge as being "suboptimal."

And to bring it back to D&D, optimizers usually make the flawed assumption that what everybody wants is for their character to be able to steamroll the monsters as quickly and efficiently as possible, when in fact what some people want might be to tell the story of a deeply flawed hero who bumbles their way through every encounter, while what other people might want is to not spend more than ten minutes making their character so they can spend more time sleeping next to their husband. Power is about priorities, and there are no objectively superior priorities in life or D&D.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that power doesn't interest me at all per se, but the ongoing and habitual mischaracterization by a subset of my readers about what constitutes power does. I suppose it's the D&D version of, "Money can't buy happiness."
Oddly, I'd give them a version of the bit about power and priorities that started this thread. It's important, when starting a career like this, to know what your true priorities are and pursue them, rather than pursuing what the world says you should care about. No one is getting rich off of webcomics—not me, not almost anyone else doing it. If you want to do a webcomic, it should be because it lets you strive for some other priority: highly flexible hours, or not having a boss, or creative expression, or internet fame, or what have you. Decide which of those is important to you, and make your decisions accordingly.

Very different topic but I feel the point he's making there is applicable to a lot of subjects, including this one.

If Dromon like most sane people doesn't want anything to do with the bloody game of thrones and its constant backstabbing and intrigue then playing the game to rise to a higher position where he will need to keep playing the game constantly in order to keep his position and/or avoid death is the opposite of helpful.
 
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There's one other kinda sorta big thing in taking Winterfell and the North away from the Starks.....MAGIC. Remember what happened after Theon and he Ironborn took WInterfell while Bran and Rickon fled? Sudden localized blizzard surrounds the Castle.
 
Taking power is worth it in stable times. Smart men don't risk upsetting the boat when shit is about to go down and it isn't like being the Lord of the Dreadfort is much worse than being Lord Paramount of the North. Besides the Lannisters may already be done for since Tyrion isn't there to pull King's Landing out of the fire when Stannis comes and both Tywin and Jaime are prisoners.

Actually, without Tyrion there King's Landing actually has a better chance go hold out against Stannis' siege if he so chooses to march immediately instead of dealing with the rest of the Tyrells. Days at least, instead of hours like in canon by arming and increasing the garrison to defends the city rather than building a stupid giant chain. Of course, this assumes Cersei isn't still going through with the wildfire plan, without training the people handling it properly like Tyrion did.
 
Actually, without Tyrion there King's Landing actually has a better chance go hold out against Stannis' siege if he so chooses to march immediately instead of dealing with the rest of the Tyrells. Days at least, instead of hours like in canon by arming and increasing the garrison to defends the city rather than building a stupid giant chain. Of course, this assumes Cersei isn't still going through with the wildfire plan, without training the people handling it properly like Tyrion did.
Ok seriously why are people so critical of the way Tyrion handled the defense? I'm pretty sure I recall the chain fucking things up for Stannis pretty badly not to mention the wildfire which either would have been of the table or backfired spectacularly if someone else handled it.
 
Also that the Goldcloaks can actually stand up to a proper military force.

Given the endemic corruption among the goldcloaks (how many times were they bought in canon?) and the fact that they are typically used to maintain the illusion of order (Real police are not equipped to fight wars and don't need to be) I doubt they'll last longer than it takes to lynch any leaders, loot the city and do a runner. If Kings Landing is going to hold against a siege then they need a real garrison.

Getting hold of a garrison wouldn't be too hard though. Conscript the able bodied; give them basic gear and training them and in a few weeks you have a decent (ish) army. It worked in canon for the Lannisters after all. Given how desperate people are the promise of food and basic pay would have people lining up. Kings landing has the population and infrastructure while Lannisters have the gold. The only real challenge is getting your troops food (a hungry army is no army at all); feeding a hundred odd rich nobles is fairly easy feeding 10,000 conscripts on the other hand...
 
Actually, without Tyrion there King's Landing actually has a better chance go hold out against Stannis' siege if he so chooses to march immediately instead of dealing with the rest of the Tyrells. Days at least, instead of hours like in canon by arming and increasing the garrison to defends the city rather than building a stupid giant chain. Of course, this assumes Cersei isn't still going through with the wildfire plan, without training the people handling it properly like Tyrion did.
Arming a discontent underclass who dislike the regime in power is probably the last thing they should do.
 
Ok seriously why are people so critical of the way Tyrion handled the defense?
I haven't read the books so my knowledge comes mostly from what people say on these boards.
So If I get things correctly Tyrion failed to assemble a fighting force or at least conscript able bodied men by feeding them propaganda against Stanis.
Breaking the chain of command (if one ever existed) with the vale tribes that came to the crownlands with him and coordinating with them (if it was possible).
And then taking those forces out to continuously harass Stannis's army while landing and marching to King's Landing.

To my understanding of medieval/ ancient combat, a great deal of losses could be incurred at this stage, long before the actual siege occurred. It would both dwindle the Baratheon forces and lower their morale.
On the other hand with King's Landing likely not under complete envelopment due to its size, Tyrion could have then continued recruiting and training forces.
After completely sealing some gates.

So instead of a conventional fight, we see Tyrion taking only minimal measures to prepare for a siege, wholly believing in a super weapon to save the day.
 
Given the endemic corruption among the goldcloaks (how many times were they bought in canon?) and the fact that they are typically used to maintain the illusion of order (Real police are not equipped to fight wars and don't need to be) I doubt they'll last longer than it takes to lynch any leaders, loot the city and do a runner. If Kings Landing is going to hold against a siege then they need a real garrison.

Getting hold of a garrison wouldn't be too hard though. Conscript the able bodied; give them basic gear and training them and in a few weeks you have a decent (ish) army. It worked in canon for the Lannisters after all. Given how desperate people are the promise of food and basic pay would have people lining up. Kings landing has the population and infrastructure while Lannisters have the gold. The only real challenge is getting your troops food (a hungry army is no army at all); feeding a hundred odd rich nobles is fairly easy feeding 10,000 conscripts on the other hand...
Food was basically nonexistent in Kings Landing sooo yeah arming ten thousand hungry and angry pheasants that you can't feed probably wouldn't be a very good idea.

I haven't read the books so my knowledge comes mostly from what people say on these boards.
So If I get things correctly Tyrion failed to assemble a fighting force or at least conscript able bodied men by feeding them propaganda against Stanis.
Breaking the chain of command (if one ever existed) with the vale tribes that came to the crownlands with him and coordinating with them (if it was possible).
And then taking those forces out to continuously harass Stannis's army while landing and marching to King's Landing.

To my understanding of medieval/ ancient combat, a great deal of losses could be incurred at this stage, long before the actual siege occurred. It would both dwindle the Baratheon forces and lower their morale.
On the other hand with King's Landing likely not under complete envelopment due to its size, Tyrion could have then continued recruiting and training forces.
After completely sealing some gates.

So instead of a conventional fight, we see Tyrion taking only minimal measures to prepare for a siege, wholly believing in a super weapon to save the day.
If I'm remembering correctly the forces in King's Landing were nearly nonexistent or corrupt fodder troops that were more police officers than an actual army. Stannis meanwhile had a big and professional army and was known as one of the greatest military minds currently alive, I don't think sallying out to meet his army in the field would have ended well.
 
If I'm remembering correctly the forces in King's Landing were nearly nonexistent or corrupt fodder troops that were more police officers than an actual army. Stannis meanwhile had a big and professional army and was known as one of the greatest military minds currently alive, I don't think sallying out to meet his army in the field would have ended well.

No, no, it would have ended well.

For Stannis that is.
 
Ok seriously why are people so critical of the way Tyrion handled the defense? I'm pretty sure I recall the chain fucking things up for Stannis pretty badly not to mention the wildfire which either would have been of the table or backfired spectacularly if someone else handled it.

Everyone expected that King's Landing would take days to take by storm and Tyrion managed to lose that in a matter of hours. If the Lannister army didn't suddenly arrive, precisely, in the nick of time, then they would've lost the battle. Tywin arriving with the Lannister cavalry while half of Stannis' army was fighting on the walls and the other half below it, was the a miracle (GRRM plot fiat). It normally takes weeks for armies to travel and Tywin got lucky in moving at the perfect time. Twelve hours earlier and the siege wouldn't have happened. Six hours later and Stannis would've had his army inside the city and could supply it with whatever survived of his navy by buying from the Vale.

Second, all of those preparations for Stannis? What about Renly? Renly was taking his sweet time and being an idiot, but he still had a hundred thousand Tyrell swords. Completely ignoring that massive army was inexcusable. The only reason Tyrion didn't get screwed over for focusing on the relatively weaker Stannis was because of Renly's completely unexpected death to shadow baby.

Tyrion winning the siege of King's Landing was by plot fiat and plot fiat alone.
 
So has news of Catelyn bending knee to Stannis reached Kingslanding yet? Black Walder didn't say anything when sharing news but he might not know.

This is a big change from canon and I kind of want to see the fallout from it because I have no idea how Robb will deal with this. Would he see it as a betrayal or would he understand that it was a political move.

On the plus side if Robb follows his mom lead and bends knee Robb can push all the Frey problems onto Stannis as king. Hell that alone may be a good enough reason to bend knee:)
 
These terrible, terrible assumptions have forced me to post.

Actually, without Tyrion there King's Landing actually has a better chance go hold out against Stannis' siege if he so chooses to march immediately instead of dealing with the rest of the Tyrells. Days at least, instead of hours like in canon by arming and increasing the garrison to defends the city rather than building a stupid giant chain. Of course, this assumes Cersei isn't still going through with the wildfire plan, without training the people handling it properly like Tyrion did.

Nope, nope, nope. If I give a bunch of donkeys barding and put dwarves on their backs in heavy armor, that doesn't make them knights on warhorses. You can give out weapons and armor to the folks of King's Landing till the cows come home and Jesus walks again - they'll never be actual soldiers, and they'll rout in a pitched battle, much like they did in canon. Without Tyrion, King's Landing would have stood NO chance.

Given the endemic corruption among the goldcloaks (how many times were they bought in canon?) and the fact that they are typically used to maintain the illusion of order (Real police are not equipped to fight wars and don't need to be) I doubt they'll last longer than it takes to lynch any leaders, loot the city and do a runner. If Kings Landing is going to hold against a siege then they need a real garrison.

Getting hold of a garrison wouldn't be too hard though. Conscript the able bodied; give them basic gear and training them and in a few weeks you have a decent (ish) army. It worked in canon for the Lannisters after all. Given how desperate people are the promise of food and basic pay would have people lining up. Kings landing has the population and infrastructure while Lannisters have the gold. The only real challenge is getting your troops food (a hungry army is no army at all); feeding a hundred odd rich nobles is fairly easy feeding 10,000 conscripts on the other hand...

Nope. Not a decent(ish) army. Just an army. I urge you to read Ser Duncan's trials with training peasants to fight; and he was just training a handful, as opposed to thousands. The conscripted Lannister army was smashed. It did not work for the Lannisters. They would've needed months to train an effective force; with weeks, all you get is canon fodder.

I haven't read the books so my knowledge comes mostly from what people say on these boards.
So If I get things correctly Tyrion failed to assemble a fighting force or at least conscript able bodied men by feeding them propaganda against Stanis.
Breaking the chain of command (if one ever existed) with the vale tribes that came to the crownlands with him and coordinating with them (if it was possible).
And then taking those forces out to continuously harass Stannis's army while landing and marching to King's Landing.

To my understanding of medieval/ ancient combat, a great deal of losses could be incurred at this stage, long before the actual siege occurred. It would both dwindle the Baratheon forces and lower their morale.
On the other hand with King's Landing likely not under complete envelopment due to its size, Tyrion could have then continued recruiting and training forces.
After completely sealing some gates.

So instead of a conventional fight, we see Tyrion taking only minimal measures to prepare for a siege, wholly believing in a super weapon to save the day.

No, no, nope. This entire post is filled with fallacies. Tyrion assembled the best fighting force he could; given that his best soldiers were gold cloaks who weren't soldiers, he did pretty damn good defending the city. And how, exactly, would "a great deal of losses be incurred" at this "stage"? Stannis was marching with 20,000 real warriors - no conscripts or policemen, but actually lords and knights. Tyrion didn't have foot, or horse; just barbarians from the Mountains of the Moon and glorified peacekeepers. Where would these losses have come from?

Recruit forces from where? Train them with who? Feed them what? What would he pay them with? Tywin wasn't about to fund an army of half-starved peasants, and the crown is deep in debt. Most of those that were trained fled the battle at the first sign of trouble.

I won't even comment on this sealing the gate thing. As if they just left it open and unlocked for Stannis to walk through. The gates were sealed, dude. That's why Stannis needed a battering ram to get through.

Everyone expected that King's Landing would take days to take by storm and Tyrion managed to lose that in a matter of hours. If the Lannister army didn't suddenly arrive, precisely, in the nick of time, then they would've lost the battle. Tywin arriving with the Lannister cavalry while half of Stannis' army was fighting on the walls and the other half below it, was the a miracle (GRRM plot fiat). It normally takes weeks for armies to travel and Tywin got lucky in moving at the perfect time. Twelve hours earlier and the siege wouldn't have happened. Six hours later and Stannis would've had his army inside the city and could supply it with whatever survived of his navy by buying from the Vale.

Second, all of those preparations for Stannis? What about Renly? Renly was taking his sweet time and being an idiot, but he still had a hundred thousand Tyrell swords. Completely ignoring that massive army was inexcusable. The only reason Tyrion didn't get screwed over for focusing on the relatively weaker Stannis was because of Renly's completely unexpected death to shadow baby.

Tyrion winning the siege of King's Landing was by plot fiat and plot fiat alone.

It did take days. Tyrion's skirmishers harried Stannis' vangaurd for several days before the ships arrived. The city fell in hours because of the lack of actual soldiers and the complete lack of morale, first from Sandor Clegane refusing to fight, then Joffrey fleeing to the castle (which led to men throwing down weapons by the hundreds AND the deaths of several officers); Stannis, at this point, had rams at two separate gates. Tyrion repelled one attack - during the attempt to turn away the force at the Mud Gate, Tyrion was betrayed by that kingsguard dude, and his soldiers retreated to the city after seeing him fall.

Then they were saved by plot fiat.

In fact, without Tyrion's skirmishers killing Stannis' scouts, the Mannis might've been aware of Tywin's imminent arrival and retreated, with the majority of his forces, back to Storm's End.

What would be the point of preparing for Renly when Stannis was the one coming to take the city? That's like fighting off your eventual Alzheimer's while you actually have terminal cancer. Ignore the cancer, and you'll be dead before Alzheimer's can arrive.

With that being said, I doubt Droose could do any better, if it came to it. Not without more actual soldiers. Of course, without him or Tyrion, the city is definitely doomed, if Cersei still plans to somehow use wild fire.
 
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Fernandel said:
If you want to discuss the Game of Thrones book or TV series when it has nothing to do with this fic, please head to the appropriate thread. Thank you.

You guys all had to scroll past the message from the mod telling you guys not to discuss the book and TV series to make a post about the book and TV series. Seriously?

If you guys want to talk about canon, make a thread here.
 
Everyone expected that King's Landing would take days to take by storm and Tyrion managed to lose that in a matter of hours. If the Lannister army didn't suddenly arrive, precisely, in the nick of time, then they would've lost the battle. Tywin arriving with the Lannister cavalry while half of Stannis' army was fighting on the walls and the other half below it, was the a miracle (GRRM plot fiat). It normally takes weeks for armies to travel and Tywin got lucky in moving at the perfect time. Twelve hours earlier and the siege wouldn't have happened. Six hours later and Stannis would've had his army inside the city and could supply it with whatever survived of his navy by buying from the Vale.

Second, all of those preparations for Stannis? What about Renly? Renly was taking his sweet time and being an idiot, but he still had a hundred thousand Tyrell swords. Completely ignoring that massive army was inexcusable. The only reason Tyrion didn't get screwed over for focusing on the relatively weaker Stannis was because of Renly's completely unexpected death to shadow baby.

Tyrion winning the siege of King's Landing was by plot fiat and plot fiat alone.
@Cxjenious could probably debunk this better than me but let's see.

Tyrion managed to lose the battle in a matter of hours. Is there any evidence that any of the other people in command at King's Landing could have done better with the forces and supplies they had available? Tywin showing up to save the day shows that for once Cersei actually kind of had a point about something when she wanted him to return to King's Landing because she felt it was far to exposed.

What about Renly? What kind of preparations are you supposed to make against a massive army of 100 000 soldiers when you have no army nor supplies worth speaking of? If you can think of a better way to fight against an army that massively outnumbers you both in troops and quality than using magical fire from a heavily fortified position I would love to hear of it. Plus Tywin was on his way so I fail to see how it was in the Lannisters benefit that his army was taken over by a more competent commander that didn't march at the pace of a turtle. That PLOT timing you spoke of earlier? Wouldn't have been a problem if the invaders were marching at Renly's pace.
 
Warning: Heads Up
thread policy To give these words some more weight (and to avoid Droman having to continuously repeat himself), consider this a friendly reminder (and new thread policy) from your local moderation team:

If you want to discuss the Game of Thrones book or TV series when it has nothing to do with this fic, please head to the appropriate thread. Thank you.

We've added a banner to the thread to make this clear. If you want it have it removed, @Droman, just tell us.
You guys all had to scroll past the message from the mod telling you guys not to discuss the book and TV series to make a post about the book and TV series. Seriously?

If you guys want to talk about canon, make a thread here.
heads up Folks, I posted that warning banner to make sure this thread wouldn't constantly get derailed by discussions of canon when it has nothing to do with this fanfic. Especially because it has repeatedly annoyed the author in the past, and he asked people to stop it.

So I'll repeat my last warning: if you want to discuss canon Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones, take it to a new thread. If you need help to create it, ask us staffers in Questions & Review where it should go, and we'll gladly give you a hand.

If people keep ignoring this, threadbans to stop derails may follow. Fair warning.
 
If the Lannister army didn't suddenly arrive, precisely, in the nick of time, then they would've lost the battle

Wasn't it the Tyrells being alongside them that won the day?

Stannis and his army were still winning until they saw... was it Loras or Garlan in Renly's armour? When they saw that, those that had served alongside Renly before joining Stannis after his death immediately broke and retreated since they thought it was his ghost coming back for revenge or whatever because he got assassinated/died mysteriously.

Now, I'm gonna be incredibly interested to see how King's Landing handles the siege this time. They've got no Tyrion, which arguably would be both good and bad for the defenders. Stannis has a larger army I believe due to his conventional defeat of Renly. Without Tyrion, the wildfire in the water might not happen, meaning Stannis will have waaaaay more men in this than he had in canon, and well, there's no way for Loras/Garlan to pull the Renly armour stunt, especially considering Loras is dead and well, Renly didn't die suspiciously. Plus the Tyrells might not join with the Lannisters considering how bad a situation the Lannisters are in at this point.
 
Chapter 26
Chapter 26: Bitterbridge
It was tense this day at this family council, for the defeat at Storm's End seemed to hung over all as if a dark cloud, manifested differently in each of those present.

In young Margaery Tyrell, it appeared as if sleeplessness had ravaged her quite fair features. The young maiden was hardly the vision of beauty she had been weeks prior, when she had wed Renly Baratheon at Highgarden.

Next to her sat her grandmother Olenna Redwyne. If her dear granddaughter seemed overly wearied, the elderly matriarch seemed to be looking for a conflict, as her expression went back and forth between concern for Margaery and looks of disappointment and loathing for the two men in the pavilion with them.

The first man, and younger of them was her grandson Garlan Tyrell. A young knight and a source of pride for his family, he seemed to be holding back, restraining himself in some way so as not to express the thoughts that seemed to plague his mind. A moment here and a moment there a frown would cross his lips, and he would look to say something, before thinking better of it and remaining silent.

The second man was the current lord of Highgarden. Lord Paramount of the Mander, High Marshal of the Reach and Warden of the South, all these titles and more were the honorifics bestowed upon the corpulent fellow who seemed utterly defeated and exhausted. This man, called Mace Tyrell, seemed like nothing so much but catatonic, lost in his thoughts and ignoring the world around him.

This state of affairs proceeded on for a while, until young Garlan at long last spoke.

"Father," he said to the very man as softly as he could manage "We cannot simply ignore what has happened."

"I should wonder not," said his grandmother in as prickly a voice as she could manage "I would find it the height of ridiculousness, to somehow ignore the utter collapse of this farce."

"Mother," said Mace Tyrell slowly "I do not wish to hear it."

"And yet hear it you shall."

"Grandmother-"

"No my dear," said the Queen of Thorns as she tutted her granddaughter's effort "No. I said my piece before all this began, did I not? I said that this would only end in tears, and now look at what a splendid mess we find ourselves in. Stannis has taken Storm's End and won himself as great a battle as any fought in the Riverlands, and has neatly seen to his brother's usurpation. Meanwhile, we have Margaery as a virgin widow, and Loras-"

"Do not." said her son hoarsely "Do not."

"He is dead Mace," said Olenna scornfully "He is dead, him and Renly. And of a plan of their own making, no less. He is dead Mace, and we are yet living to deal with the burden of his plotting-"

"That is enough grandmother," said Garlan at long last, the tone of his voice brooking no dissent "You have said your piece."

"And yet I should like to say quite a bit more-"

"And you will not. You may wish to castigate father until summer fades into winter's coming, but I for one have no inclination to hear your haranguing. Not when more important matters are at stake."

"More important? The matter is settled, my boy. We made our play and failed. Renly is dead and Margaery is a widow without child to follow him. What is there left to do, than to disperse the army and return to Highgarden?"

"We have options," said Garlan steadily, sighing as he looked to his sister "Or so the Queen Regent's messenger would have us think."

"I'm sure he would, considering the Starks and Tullys have done their best to bankrupt the Lannisters of fighting men. As I'm equally sure the Lannisters would appreciate Reach foodstuffs to feed the capital, and for our coin to spent as well!"

"It is an option, grandmother."

"It is an option that bleeds House Tyrell and the Reach for the sake of others."

"It is an option that makes Margaery queen."

"And leaves us tied to the hip to the Lannisters, after this utter farce of a rebellion!" Olenna all but shouted as she stood up from her chair "Your father's ambition has already cost you one sibling, Garlan! Loras, your own brother! Cut down at Storm's End by Stannis Baratheon's men! For what? So that Margaery could bedeck herself with a diadem, and that Renly might play at being king?"

"And your suggestion is better, to simply return to Highgarden as meekly as we dare? House Florent would be the first to declare for Stannis, and if there is any man in the realm who does not bear our family any good will, then it is him! Him, with a Florent wife and a half-Florent daughter! What do you think his court shall be, his small council shall be, if not Florents? Estermonts? His own grandfather and uncles and cousins swore to Renly rather than him! Stormlanders? Again, they swore for Renly!"

"Let the Lannisters bleed for that monstrosity of a throne," came his grandmother's response "Let Stannis Baratheon bleed for it. Let the Starks and Tullys bleed in Eddard Stark's memory. I would not have us bleed, Garlan. Not one more Tyrell life, to see this king or that king enthroned."

"And in doing so, you might hand over Highgarden to the Florents!"

"Might, Garlan. Might. Even if Stannis should sit himself atop the Iron Throne, I would like him march down the Mander and see it so! Florents? Oversized and overly loud, but that is all. For every ally the Florents might call, we have five more! Hightowers of Oldtown, Fossoways of Cider Hall and New Barrel, Redwynes of the Arbor and Tyrells of Longthorn Hall! And the same can go for the Lannisters, as far as I'm concerned!"

Her fill had, Olenna looked to sit back down, even as her grandson made to retort-

Only for a young boy to stumble through the pavilion's flaps, the green and gold colours of his doublet identifying him as a scion of House Tyrell.

"Raymund," said Garlan as he redirected his attention to his squire "What ever's the matter?"

"My apologies for intruding," said Raymund Tyrell, hesitating slightly as he took in the obvious tension in the tent "But there's riders come from the east. Riders and wagons, bearing a banner with a flaming stag."

"A flaming stag?" murmured Margaery softly "There is no house that bears that sigil in the Stormlands."

"Perhaps it is our would-be king's," said her grandmother scornfully "It is said that he has taken up with a priestess from the east, after all."

"Begging your pardon, Lady Olenna but it's not the only sigil being carried. There's others, Stormlander ones. And..."

"And what, boy? What other sigils could there be?"

"There's a Riverlander one, my lady. House Tully."

--

"Lady Catelyn," said Garlan Tyrell politely as the Stormlander party entered through the pavilion "Be welcome among us."

Her arrival and that of the Stormlanders with her had not gone unnoticed by many in the great camps around Bitterbridge. In the days and weeks that had followed the battle of Storm's End, there had been chaos in the army, as Stormlanders one and all had quickly shed their opportunistic loyalties to Renly, and looked to declare themselves for Stannis.

There had even been those among the Reachmen so inclined, led by the Florents who counted Stannis's wife as their own and his daughter as kin. A unsteady coalition of the two groups had formed in opposition to those uncertain Reachmen who looked to the paralyzed Tyrells for leadership. Finding little and none from Mace Tyrell, several of the lesser lords and knights had elected to dip their banners and return home of their own accord, abandoning any future conflict.

The recent arrival of Petyr Baelish from King's Landing had not helped matters, as he sought to gain audience with the Tyrells, only to find the matter stymied by the Florents and their confederates, who threatened to hang him and his retinue if they so much and dared to speak in Joffrey's favour. Had it not been for the fearsome Randyll Tarly, who held ties to both the Florents and the Tyrells, then blood would have been shed quickly and greatly between those who not a month prior counted all present as friends. Indeed, Tarly himself had taken Baelish under his protection, an act some suspected to have been made to prolong the uneasy truce at Bitterbridge, where the tensions had left him in a position of esteemed neutrality between both sides and in a position to benefit well as mediator.

Until now, however.

Now... now, came the moment of truth.

The arrival of envoys by way of Stannis Baratheon had riled up much of if not most of the army's divided leadership, resulting in a great deal of arguing and contention as to who would be present to receive them. The Tyrells had desired as small a audience as possible, whereas the Florents had all but demanded that every knight and lord of repute available would be present. In the end, Tarly had managed to enforce a comprise, with only the greatest knights and lords yet remaining allowed a place.

Consequently, all were left displeased.

"I thank Ser Garlan," said the Tully born matron as she nodded to the young Tyrell knight "I thank you, and offer my condolences. I was not personally a witness to your good brother's passing, but he led Lord Renly's van bravely and fought fiercely at the front. I-"

"Who killed him, my lady?"

At that Catelyn Tully hesitated.

"Ser-"

"Please, my lady. I would know."

"Your brother was very brave, Ser. He cut down half a dozen knights I am told, fierce fighters all. Knights hailing from House Follard, House Penny, House Scales, House Suggs, House Whitewater, even the lord of House Sweet-"

"My lady," said Garlan again, his voice a little colder "I would have answer."

"... Ser Richard Horpe was the man, I was told. He fought him when both were afoot and cut him down amidst the entrenchments. Him and Renly as well, when Renly waded into the melee himself after Ser Loras's death reached him."

At that murmurs broke out amongst those assembled, as Mace Tyrell drew inward to himself and Garlan Tyrell's lips tightened into a frown.

"And how did the Lord Stannis honour him for these daring feats? A promise of a lordship? A highborn bride? Truly, I am curious. What was the gift given for my brother's life?"

Again Catelyn Tully hesitated, but answered without a second prompting.

"He has given him nothing yet, Ser Garlan. His Grace has indicated that all accounts and matters will be resolved when the war is ended. Ser Richard has chosen to abide by that."

At that more murmurs broke out, and Garlan Tyrell could see the greedy looks on the faces of the Florents, the looks of concerns among those Stormlanders who had declared for Renly first.

"Nothing," murmured Garlan nothing, as a bitter laugh escaped him "He gave him nothing."

"Ser-"

"No, my lady Catelyn!" said the Tyrell knight with a wave of his hand to cut her off "You have said it clearly, and I would make those present understand it. Ser Richard Horpe, a knight of Lord Stannis Baratheon. A man who can be named his champion, if the Lady Stark's words are true. A man who felled my brother, a man who felled Stannis's own brother! And what reward has he received for his great efforts? A highborn bride, and perhaps a lordship as well? Brienne of Tarth went east with Renly, did she not? A would be knight rather than a blushing bride, but if she lived she might have made a fitting bride for a loyal man. But we do not hear such from the lady, do we? We hear nothing at all, nothing but promises that accounts will be settled, that problems will be resolved."

He let his words linger in the air, a silence following in their wake until he chose to continue.

"Tell me, you knights and lords of the realm. Does that seem a lord to follow? A king to serve? One who does not even reward his most leal servants? How will you then fare, you who raised your banners against him? Do you think he will forget your actions? Do you think he will let you slink away to your homes, as some have already done? That you can but hide in your holdfasts, and pretend all will be forgiven?"

"We have not erred so greatly as you speak," said Alester Florent, the lord of Brightwater Keep standing up to draw attention to himself "Every man of the Stormlands who pledged to Renly was by right fulfilling his oaths to the Lord of Storm's End, and already we have heard tales of those who fought for Renly having been granted clemency by King Stannis. They have seen the light and flocked to his side, as is their place. And we of the Reach had likewise cause, did we not? House Tyrell summoned us, and so we came."

Murmurs of agreement began to filter throughout the tent, and Garlan's frown only deepened.

"In fact," said the Lord Florent daringly "I see no knight or lord here who need fear King Stannis's displeasure bar your lordly father."

At that Garlan's hand dipped to his sword hilt, a fact that did not escape the notice of any present.

"Have a care Florent," said the Tyrell knight quietly "Else I might mistake that for a threat."

"I but speak the truth," thundered the older man even as he took a step back "Of all present, only your father was not bound by any preceding oaths. Were it not for his decision to crown Renly, a decision clearly tied into making your sister a false queen-"

"I will not repeat myself."

"Your father and brother are to blame!" continued on Alester Florent, even as Garlan's self-control continued to fray "Had they not whispered in the Lord Renly's ear, perhaps he might have remembered his filial duties, and not condemned himself as a usurper!"

"Alester-"

"No!" said the lord of Brightwater as he waved off his Tarly good-son "No! I will say it plainly! The Tyrells grasped greedily, and in doing so stained the honour of every family and man whose oaths they were owed! And for what? A false crown, a false king, and a false Kingsguard? All so that Mace Tyrell might make royal bedwarmers of both his daughter and-"

And what else would not be known, as Garlan Tyrell's sword came swinging out of his scabbard and made for Alester Florent's neck.

In another time and another place, the sword's edge might have landed true and cut clean through flesh and sinew.

In another time and another place, Garlan might ended House Florent's ambitions before they ever truly began, or perhaps set in motion a conflict that would ravage every corner of the Reach whole.

In this time and in this place however...

Randyll Tarly caught the blade, stopping it from claiming it's intended target with his own gauntleted hand.

Even as his good-father stumbled back and away from his would-be assailant, the Lord of Horn Hill first gripped the blade strongly, before pulling it away from himself, even as crimson tears began to slick through the cut made into the guantlet itself, trickling down the weapon's length in turn. He did not break his attention from Garlan Tyrell however, each man staring the other down.

Eventually Garlan relented, offering a fraction of a nod the older man.

Tarly offered his own nod in turn, releasing his bloody grip and stepping away.

The two stood motionless for a moment, before Tarly looked around him to those assembled, and said his last.

"I think we've had enough talking for today."
 
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Also, holy fuck do you people manage to ignore Mod alerts.

Suffice it to say, there'll be some thoughts from Droose regarding Cersei and Tyrion's conduct in King's Landing some chapter down the line.
 
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