No, I was actually thinking that we could actually see what the castle looked like before planning anything. There are a lot of different castles, all of which have different advantages and weaknesses. Because castles are straight up built for bombardment, so we'll need to be a little bit more tactful than that.
But simply walking into their hands is not a good plan however you look at it. True we're probably more powerful than them, but I still don't like it because of our explosive expertise, the tight(ish) spaces of a castle, and the fact that we'd be playing into their hands, even if ultimately they're playing into ours.
What do you thnk about the idea of engaging them at the gate, standing on the outside? Then they are enclosed, but we aren't, and to get to us they must enter sunlight.
"So assuming we aren't going to just knock on the front door, what methods do we have for gathering information, you know, besides just guessing who the target is?"
"Vampires are sensitive to fluctuations in ambient energy, getting close is not really an optionif you do not want to alert them. And we do not really have the time for a large scale long range stake out."
Within that time I have not double, but triple checked my plans for this, made quite a few rather pointless and nitpicky adjustments to balance, logic, structure, fleshed out the character of the vamps you're about to kill. Even gave a few a tragic backstory they will no doubt never feel the need to tell you before you rip them in half.
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My point is I'm bored, wasting time on menial things, and just spent the last hour double checking my blueprints with that of real castles(again) to make sure I'm not entirely off base. (I'm not, though calling mine a castle may be perhaps a bit generous. It's more like a stone mansion with outer walls.)
This is fine, I have AP to deal with anyway, but there is a slight problem.
While today I am rather busy, tomorrow(Tuesday) I have literally nothing to do all day but watch some children. (I can't even read anything immersive as that will take too much attention away from the children to be safe.)
In that time I will no doubt finish the latest AP post, change a diaper, or two, or three, and be utterly bored for four to five hours.
So through no want to rush your, surely rather active and heated debate the likes of which no man has ever borne witness to before, I would really appreciate if you gave me something to do during those hours.
So I would like to humbly, and totally not mocking in any way, request that we perhaps have a consensus I can use before then? Preferably tonight.
[X] Float the following plan:
-[X] We and Butcher approach the castle overtly, while Forgotten Lies in wait for the Master's escape.
--[X] We blow down the door with something flashy, probably channeling fire into it and hitting it with a compressed air ball, before butcher bellows a demand that the master of vampires meet us in combat.
---[X] We fight in the open outside the gate, using it to limit how many can come at us, with us using explosions on concentrations of enemies while Butcher acts as support, keeping the vamps from getting to us and making any attacks of opportunity.
[X] Ask for feedback, making any necessary revisions.
-[x] If they ask why you are asking them, or it is otherwise relevant, say that failing to make use of your team's skills is the opposite of good leadership.
--[x] Once the plan is finalised, execute it.
[X] Float the following plan:
-[X] We and Butcher approach the castle overtly, while Forgotten Lies in wait for the Master's escape.
--[X] We blow down the door with something flashy, probably channeling fire into it and hitting it with a compressed air ball, before butcher bellows a demand that the master of vampires meet us in combat.
---[X] We fight in the open outside the gate, using it to limit how many can come at us, with us using explosions on concentrations of enemies while Butcher acts as support, keeping the vamps from getting to us and making any attacks of opportunity.
[X] Ask for feedback, making any necessary revisions.
-[x] If they ask why you are asking them, or it is otherwise relevant, say that failing to make use of your team's skills is the opposite of good leadership.
--[x] Once the plan is finalised, execute it.
I really don't want to scroll through a bunch of vote and look for tiny ass differences, and I don't have the tally program.
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So @Nightingale@Skewfiend@Powerofmind
Is that the winning vote?
Because I swear to all things holy I'm closing the vote when I finish the AP post tomorrow and am still staring at several hours of nothing.
I really don't want to scroll through a bunch of vote and look for tiny ass differences, and I don't have the tally program.
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So @Nightingale@Skewfiend@Powerofmind
Is that the winning vote?
Because I swear to all things holy I'm closing the vote when I finish the AP post tomorrow and am still staring at several hours of nothing.
Alright, today did NOT go as expected.
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Anyway, I basically have both written, but I am much too tired to proofread them and post them. So I'm going to sleep, then when I wake up probably edit some shit, fix some typos, change some details. You know, normal shit.
Last time I try to write while that tired XD, spent a lot of time re-writing this. Still looks awkward.
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[X] Float the following plan:
-[X] We and Butcher approach the castle overtly, while Forgotten Lies in wait for the Master's escape.
--[X] We blow down the door with something flashy, probably channeling fire into it and hitting it with a compressed air ball, before butcher bellows a demand that the master of vampires meet us in combat.
---[X] We fight in the open outside the gate, using it to limit how many can come at us, with us using explosions on concentrations of enemies while Butcher acts as support, keeping the vamps from getting to us and making any attacks of opportunity.
[X] Ask for feedback, making any necessary revisions.
-[x] If they ask why you are asking them, or it is otherwise relevant, say that failing to make use of your team's skills is the opposite of good leadership.
--[x] Once the plan is finalised, execute it.
-------------
[X]Ask Forgotten what happens if we use the environment to kill them instead of doing it ourselves directly.
--------------
"I might have an idea, but I have to ask first, what happens if I use the world to kill them instead of my own attack?"
"The simplest way to explain it would be that as a Death our souls infect the souls of others, and that infection is what finishes them off for good."
"So if I attack them and then use the environment to kill them, it'll work?"
"In theory. Practice however is almost never that simple. You could use the environment to damage them, but you need to finish them yourself."
"Alright, so what if we approach the gate, blow it open, and then demand to meet the master in combat. It's daylight so if we take cover in the light and don't go inside, we'll have advantage. And we're blowing stuff up, so it's not like they can ignore us. And Forgotten's staying out here, so if the master tries to escape out the back we're covered anyway."
"It is a little blatant, but sometimes blatant is good. What if they ignore the sun and charge us like idiots?"
"That's why you're here. You focus less on attacking and more on keeping us safe, so if they pull something, we don't die before we can counter it. Any objections?"
"Sounds good, what do you think big guy?" He asks, and you can make out his mocking smirk as he gestures towards Forgotten.
"I think I have completed far more dangerous missions with far worse plans."
"So... It's a good idea?"
"No, I do not think throwing away the element of surprise, and then staging a siege on a castle with one person, while the more powerful assault specialist twiddles his thumbs and looks pretty in a support role, is a good idea. But with the current limitations, I suppose it is not terrible..." Is it normal to want to sock skeletons? You wonder... It has to be, you're a pretty logical person, and it is the only thing you feel most of the time when he talks.
Wait a minute. "Of course you're stuck on a support role, you don't want to get involved!"
"He was talking about me." You glance at Butcher in surprise, but then realize what that implies. You take a moment to feel for their power. Sure enough, as you expected, you can't even feel Forgotten's, like he's not even there, but Butcher's is notable. He's stronger than you now. Not so much as to outclass you, but enough that it is noticeable. This actually kind of annoys you, but you swipe it aside as secondary and petty. Instead, you focus more on the tactical significance.
"Alright, so what would you suggest?" You ask through slightly ground teeth.
"I am no longer qualified to judge a proper strategy for enemies this weak, any plan I come up with would be pointlessly convoluted and fail due to the fact that the last time I killed something like this, I did it by crushing them on a whim from several thousand miles away."
And back to being speechless, huh, you find yourself wondering if he overstating, or understating his abilities... Probably overstating, he seems pretty damn arrogant. "Fine then, so you don't like our plan, but have nothing to contribute?"
"I would not say that. I think your plan is adorable, I would like to pet it." Must resist, urge, to, sock skeleton!
"Alright, fuck you, let's go Butcher." Before you even fully turn around Forgotten coughs. You want to sigh at his lack of subtlety, as the dude doesn't even have lungs! Turning back around to face him he's leaning over a small three dimensional map of the castle balancing on the branch like it is weightless.
Before you can even ask he starts pointing. "There are thirty four possible enemy combatants in this castle." As he points to places red dots of differing size appear. You notice most of the dots are in the center, crowded around something that spans the entire large room. If they weren't vampires you'd assume it is a giant dining room, though when you think about it, maybe it still is? Do vampires dine? Gah, not the time.
As he finishes pointing them out you notice a small amount in side rooms, huh, this place is pretty small for a castle. It's not like it's tiny, but compared to what you thought when you saw it, hmm, you blame the walls. The strange part though, is that there's a dot in the back of the castle that's fluctuating in size between the same size as the bigger ones, and the same size as the normal masses. "What's up with that one?" You ask while pointing at the fluctuation.
"That one is slowly dying for reasons I am not aware of. It is about as powerful as those four," he points towards four of the bigger red dots at the end of the table away from the entrance, who are conveniently placed around a dot which is by far the brightest. "I do not know why it is dying, as I have not heard of any sickness that afflicts vampires in that manner. I do however know that it is in a lot of pain."
"You think it could be our key to the target?"
"I think it is possible, though only if the reason for this weak state is malicious, and not a matter of circumstance."
"So what are the, stats, I think Rose called it, of these vamps in comparison to my own?" You ask the skeleton. If he's answering, you're taking.
"Eighteen of them, these really tiny dots, are pitiful. These eight," he makes a note of them, six of them at the table, the other two off doing something in a room to the left of it, "are a little weaker than you but a plausible threat. These four," he points towards the four larger dots around the really big one from before, "are stronger than you but not Butcher. These two," he points towards one in a room all the way in the top right sector of the 'castle,' and then another all the way on the bottom left, near the gate actually, "are significantly stronger than you. They also outclass Butcher, I suggest handling them with a plan. This last one," he points towards the massive dot, "should not be engaged without a plan. If you find yourself alone with him, make some noise and I will find a way to save you without giving up the game. I believe that to be the master, but you can never be sure."
You nod at his explanation, thankful for the info, but wishing he didn't have to be such a prick before giving it. "And the sick one, in the back? What's its power exactly?"
"At peak I would say weaker than Butcher, stronger than you. But right now, I am not even sure it could fight back."
"Anything else I should know?"
"The possible gains for this mission are significantly higher than your ability to safely take in. So try not to overdo it. If you feel yourself filling up, start giving kills to Butcher." You nod gratefully, it makes sense. Besides, you had actually totally forgotten about the entire overload thing, and are happy to have a reminder before it is too late.
"So, are we changing the plan?"
You ponder this info. It doesn't really change anything, but.. hmm....
*Raises eyebrow* Wasn't the entire point of this mission for us to kill as much as we safely could? How would butcher doing the lion's share of the killing help with that?
I can't think ofmuch more than continuing with the plan, and concentrating fire with our big guns on the heavies. What about you lot.
is there anything under the castel that we can use to help drop the bulding on their heads with them still in it? and is there any way to offload gains to someone else if we still need to kill someone for some reason but can't risk overloading?
*Raises eyebrow* Wasn't the entire point of this mission for us to kill as much as we safely could? How would butcher doing the lion's share of the killing help with that?
is there anything under the castel that we can use to help drop the bulding on their heads with them still in it? and is there any way to offload gains to someone else if we still need to kill someone for some reason but can't risk overloading?
To my understanding, the answer to the first is "not usefully", as we need to directly finish them with SP or we get problems, as mentioned in the update.
The second is an interesting question I don't know the answer to, but it might not be a concern, as Cecilia seems to be able to prevent ill-effects from overloading.
Butcher is only stronger if we don't count Icky. With Icky, I bet we could take this whole castle. We need to start thinking more like a symbiotic organism.
Honestly, even without the limitations, it doesn't seem like that bad of a plan. We are an explosion specialist, even if Butcher is stronger, our attack to damage/kill ratio is likely larger, because he fires piddly bullets and we just blow things into chunks.
Them knowing something is nearby for unknown reasons with a little bit of power because it approached range, and knowing there's an explosive expert who wants to kill them, are entirely different levels of information for your enemy to have.
Them knowing something is nearby for unknown reasons with a little bit of power because it approached range, and knowing there's an explosive expert who wants to kill them, are entirely different levels of information for your enemy to have.
Yes, but they would learn that in pretty much every plan, and we can't do time delayed explosions, nor do I think, correct me if I am wrong, we can access the room they are in from the outside. So, there is no getting around it.
Yes, but they would learn that in pretty much every plan, and we can't do time delayed explosions, nor do I think, correct me if I am wrong, we can access the room they are in from the outside. So, there is no getting around it.
Not without walking in through the front door, or blowing a hole in it, no.
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As for no way around it though, that's hogwash. If you haven't figured out a way to do something, in a game without mechanic limitations (Looking at you Dark Souls and small ledges with items. Fuck you I have to go around, I could just climb it, or grab the fucking item from here!), you're playing in the box.
I'll admit lack of knowledge is a bit of a downer, and it would be nicer of these guys would just implant knowledge directly into your mind like a massive file instead of people. But I mean, that's no reason NOT to be creative!
Nightingale mentioned that most of my methods are both really simple, and yet scarily effective. This is because despite being simple, they are creative.
Creativity breeds results.
I'm not going to veto this, but I will note something from my own tactical knowledge.
As was stated previously, vampires regenerate.
With regenerating enemies, you can't do glancing damage. You need to finish them before they heal.
Vampires HP regen at a rate of around Max/120(2 minutes)(Though their timer before they need to 'feed' again goes down as they heal and such)
While you HP regen at a rate of around Max/600(10 minutes)
This doesn't mean much, but say the enemy's END was 400.
That would mean 800 HP
800/120=6.66 HP per second.
Now that is probably higher than anything you're going to meet on this mission, unless one of the top 3 is a straight tank, but the point remains.
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Now, I know you're probably wondering what my point is. Well, it's real simple.
Your strategy involves staying in the light, as in, outside, for at-least most of the fight. This means you do not have chase.
Without chase, after taking a hit, enemies that survive can simply walk away, heal with their bros take damage, and then come back while their bros heal.
So for your strategy to work, you need to be killing the enemies before they can run. This means stopping power over speed.
Now, for relevancy, here is the list BASIC damages of any skill that can be quantified in a matter of straight damage. This is before modifiers of any sort other than raw levels. So do not take this to be everything:
Compressed Air Ball (Wind) (110.25) (66.15 SP)(Ratio 1.66)
Small Compressed Air Ball (Wind) (DMG 50)(30 SP)(Ratio 1.66)
Burst of Flame (Holy/Fire) (10.5 Per Sec(Holy Burn))(25 SP Per Sec)(Ratio 0.42) (It should be noted without 'holy burn' this skill would be worthless, and in need of a serious upgrade. Fuck, it still is.)
Grinding Sphere (Raw Energy) (150 Per Sec)(100 SP Per Sec)(Ratio 1.5)
Sever (Dark)(DMG 268.019)(100.5 SP)(Ratio 2.66)
Huh... Can I just note your only range options appear to be compressed balls of air? Which admit-ably do a pretty ok amount of damage when you calc in element affinity, force modifier, environmental aspects like shrapnel, INT scaling... My point stands, my god.
After this somebody please have Aeternam ask Cecellia, or, fuck, someone, for some range spells? Please?
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ANYWAY!
My point is that while you're wasting your energy on the big guys, who will probably just say 'fuck it', move back, heal, and then come back in twenty fucking seconds, those small guys are attacking you. That is, assuming they have ranged attacks.
If they DON'T have ranged attacks, your plan is flawed as they just won't come near the gate. Why would they? What possible reason could they have if they can't do anything because of the sunlight? They'll just run deeper into the castle... Either you'll be forced to enter to kill your target, or they'll wait till nighttime.
I guess you could focus on destroying their cover, but you only have so much SP, and even if they don't know you're a Death, they do know that. Everything has the equivalent of an "SP bank." How much they can actually restore in a day before they're tapped and need rest.
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Course focusing on the small guys, while efficient for obvious kill reasons if you can manage instant kills, or to get a second shot off before they flee that does kill them, has its own problems.
Then the big guys are left to whatever crazy devices they probably have, and I'm sure no one wants to figure those out.
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But here is the BIGGEST, most important aspect of the "ranged, out in the light cover" technique.
The one of us with real ranged damage right now, is Butcher.
We don't want Butcher stealing all the kills, that's not the point here.
That's why his plan involved getting you into close quarters.
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But then, in close quarters you're also disadvantaged, because then you're surrounded. And there's nothing like getting mobbed to death by pitiful enemies because there were a lot of them, and you were surrounded.
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So really, all basic tactics? Not going to work. You know why?
Because this is a siege on a superior enemy force. The only element you have against them, is that as defenders they plausibly have to plan for everything, which isn't possible. While as attackers, you really only need two to three good plans.
Every info you give them, is another variable they can use to cut down the planning they have to do.
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Anyway, tired ass exhaustion rant over with. I'm going to bed, as I have class later. Night folks, peace!
Very well, we shall die screaming with you on your return.
Hm.
Probably the main thing I can think of to enhance the current plan would be to have Butcher focus on debilitating shots to the legs. How will you regen-kite me, mr. Anderson Vampire, if you have no legs?
@Sendicard, 1) If the others agree to ask it, could we get Butcher's opinion on how good he would be at dislegging the vampires, and whether he thinks he could disleg the weaker ones without immediately killing them?
2)I don't think the damage and damage efficiency are listed in the charsheet. Could we get a complete list? I am particularly curious as to the efficiency of shockwave.
As far as alternate plans go, a couple spring to mind.
The first is to have Forgotten go straight through the wall and alpha-strike the most powerful vampire, then act as a beater, driving the others towards us. (Although he should go after any that try to escape somehow). Butcher and us then lay in wait outside the exit, to debilitate and destroy the vampires respectively. Spurred by panic, they will not be able to abuse their regen properly, and will be funneledninto a killbox where we can properly abuse our explosives, especially shockwave. Falls apart if they have extra exits, has problems if the target is not the strongest one, and Forgotten might not go for it.
Another would be to collapse the gatehouse in a single mighty spell with Shockwave. This lets them know that an assailant is an exploder, and a powerful one, but little else. Sometging unknown demolishing your gatehouse and preventing easy escape is liable to be cause for the master of vampires to try and exit stage left. We would have to operate at high levels of sensor and comms, to track down and seal any other exits that they flee to, kettling them in the building. That accomplished, we could engage them on our terms, busting through to hit them with our powerful spells where they clump, and the like. This probably lets us kill the Master of Vampires fastest, and gives us an edge in fighting them, but involves worrying amounts of non-kill SP expenditure on our part.
