Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

Versharl · Feb 6, 2018

Seems like there's already a consensus among the plans that we need to build a military outpost. Hopefully we can get some answers from Poptart before we commit to that.

uju32 said:
Shuttles are FTL in Mass Effect regardless. As in, ME drive, not just Relay capable.
And in system travel can be deceptive when you consider how big systems get.
For example, our Earth system is 1.87 light years radius.
It's diameter at 3.74 light years is 85% of the distance to our closest stellar neighbor Alpha Centauri.

This is not relevant and is misleading. The relays are not located in the Oort Could equivalent. They're located near the planets in the system.

uju32 said:
And you are wrong about this.
IC our advisers would not be giving us trap choices; its THEIR necks on the line out there, in those ships. OOC neither is our GM.
There is a reason why the Virmire docks option is called a patch instead of a full solution.

They're only saying that it's possible to dock the 3rd Quarian out in the middle of nowhere, not that it's desirable. It's not a trap option if you want to use the 3rd Quarian to patrol the Sentry Omega cluster but if you want to use the Rachni fleet to defend Attican Beta, it's absolutely a mistake.
The reason why the Virmire docks is called a patch is because we'll need more yard space once we expand our fleet further. It solves the problem with the 3rd Quarian but not future expansion.

uju32 said:
Yes.
Which means a good chunk of our ships are regularly a significant distance away from Hercules System in Attican Beta, to the point where when we forecasted an attack, we had to take special precautions to keep the ships available. That's no different from having ships away in Sentry Omega.
Seriously, you're freaking out to no good cause.

We're talking about using these ships for defence in case the Rachni attack Attican Beta. They aren't going to be all that useful if it takes 5 hours before they can reinforce Attican Beta in response to a Rachni attack.

@PoptartProdigy, how long would the response time of the 3rd Quarian Fleet be to a Rachni attack on Attican Beta be if they were stationed at a military outpost in Sentry Omega in the Assilia system or similar?

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

LunarTinker said:
dammit what timezone are you guys in? sigh i will just wait then till you guys vote.

Look at the time when the update was posted, and add twelve hours.
*checks*
You're in Deutschland. Voting should start 2.40 PM your time.

Angelform · Feb 6, 2018

ctulhuslp said:
I am against taking Independence option until we properly investigate those who started it.
I don't trust any of the starters and I don't trust Assembly.

If we investigate and find out they were genuine believers and not, say, corporate plan to fuck with us, we can go ahead.

You are missing the point.
We aren't taking the Independence option to undermine an opposing political party or to placate business owners. We are taking it because the overwhelming majority of our population wants to be independent. Moreover a majority of us voters want to be independent. The only reason the bill was stopped it because voters don't trust NPCs to make decisions.

Well now we don't have to. We get to write a bill of independence that makes us happy. That we are satisfied with and that we are confident won't come back to bite us.

Finding out about our potential political opponents is all well and good but it is a decidedly secondary issue.

Versharl · Feb 6, 2018

Angelform said:
We aren't taking the Independence option to undermine an opposing political party or to placate business owners. We are taking it because the overwhelming majority of our population wants to be independent. Moreover a majority of us voters want to be independent. The only reason the bill was stopped it because voters don't trust NPCs to make decisions.

It's like voters don't give a shit about the "will of the people" when it goes against their personal desires. What a surprise.

Tabron89 · Feb 6, 2018

...Wouldn't it be better to put laxatives in their coffee?

Can't do much if they're constantly going back and forth, suffering from bowel pains.

Dwergar · Feb 6, 2018

[ ] Looking for Sponsors: It's impossible to build a state without like-minded individuals, and Virmirean politicians have been producing a lot of noise in debates within the Assembly of late. Odds are that the proposals going onto your desk came out of corporate mouths. Use your spy network and your MoF records to figure out a lead, and try to see if you can find somebody who will talk. Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: ?%. Cost: ? credits. Effect: Trace the connections, find a rat, and make them squeal. Trace the evidence trail until you find out what the suits have planned for your state.

Versharl said:
It's like voters don't give a shit about the "will of the people" when it goes against their personal desires. What a surprise.

Yes.
It's surely players asserting dominance over useless politicians, not them being unwilling to sign blank checks.

LunarTinker · Feb 6, 2018

uju32 said:
Look at the time when the update was posted, and add twelve hours.
*checks*
You're in Deutschland. Voting should start 2.40 PM your time.

that is both very helpful and very concerning, trotzdem danke.

Wiadi · Feb 6, 2018

Dwergar said:
Yes.
It's surely players asserting dominance over useless politicians, not them being unwilling to sign blank checks.

I mean, if that's really the only problem then it'd make sense to go for the Start My Own option this year. The populace does seem clearly & strongly in favor of independence, and that vote gives us a way to implement it that gives us direct control over the process. Now, if we think that what the people want is not necessarily the same as what they should get (for one of a variety of reasons), that's a separate issue - but it's disingenuous to say "we support the will of the people but don't like blank checks" unless you plan on immediately pursuing independence.

And yes, the independence movement may be corporate-backed, but that doesn't explain our approval ratings hit unless they have popular support (regardless of its origins). Of course, "the people are being duped into wanting independence by corporate interests" is an option for the whole why-the-people-shouldn't-get-what-they-want thing, but like I said, that's a separate issue and does still mean disregarding the will of the people due to personal preferences.

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

Versharl said:
This is not relevant and is misleading. The relays are not located in the Oort Could equivalent. They're located near the planets in the system.

They're ALL located near the planets?
Citation please.
Because this is literally all we know about Relay positioning:

They are "cold" objects that don't emit heat or radiation, unlike starships, making them difficult to find if their position changes. Some relays, like the Charon Relay, are "gravitationally anchored" to celestial bodies; others appear to be out in space and are carefully tracked.

Nothing about being close to planets as a prerequisite to anything.

Versharl said:
They're only saying that it's possible to dock the 3rd Quarian out in the middle of nowhere, not that it's desirable. It's not a trap option if you want to use the 3rd Quarian to patrol the Sentry Omega cluster but if you want to use the Rachni fleet to defend Attican Beta, it's absolutely a mistake. The reason why the Virmire docks is called a patch is because we'll need more yard space once we expand our fleet further. It solves the problem with the 3rd Quarian but not future expansion.

The GM literally said there's an extra vote after this to select where said outpost goes.
And none of the maps are to scale. There is literally no supporting data for the arguments being made.

Versharl said:
We're talking about using these ships for defence in case the Rachni attack Attican Beta. They aren't going to be all that useful if it takes 5 hours before they can reinforce Attican Beta in response to a Rachni attack.

We've been living with this reality for several years now and working with it.
We mine and fortify our relays heavily for this reason, as opposed to whatever tripwire the Rachni work with.
We still patrol the rest of the AB and KV clusters regardless.

Wiadi said:
I mean, if that's really the only problem then it'd make sense to go for the Start My Own option this year.

At a time when ALL our Personal Actions are locked up because of the Quarians?
Why would we want to do that?

Simon_Jester · Feb 6, 2018

Angelform said:
Good plan. Has the Independence option that we absolutely must take.

Must?

Angelform said:
Finding out about our potential political opponents is all well and good but it is a decidedly secondary issue.

Finding out what our political opponents (who may not even be opponents) want is important because we want to write a declaration of independence that meets needs and serves the desired purposes. Which we cannot do if we are ignorant of who has what opinions about how the declaration should read, and why they have those opinions.
Remind me again why the planet explodes if we don't put out a declaration of independence this year? Only reason I can think of is if we plan to have conversations going with the outside galaxy next year on an ongoing basis, and I see no way to accomplish that.

ctulhuslp said:
Mrmmr.

I am against taking Independence option until we properly investigate those who started it.
I don't trust any of the starters and I don't trust Assembly.

If we investigate and find out they were genuine believers and not, say, corporate plan to fuck with us, we can go ahead.

Speaking of corporate plans: who is funding Secessionist Party?

It is reasonable to suppose that there's a genuine drive for independence. Even if the megacorps are backing the secessionists, it's still massively popular. The problems with independence are all either practical, or with the "bill to pass a bill" nonsense that bypasses Mira's veto.

Wiadi said:
I mean, if that's really the only problem then it'd make sense to go for the Start My Own option this year. The populace does seem clearly & strongly in favor of independence, and that vote gives us a way to implement it that gives us direct control over the process. Now, if we think that what the people want is not necessarily the same as what they should get (for one of a variety of reasons), that's a separate issue - but it's disingenuous to say "we support the will of the people but don't like blank checks" unless you plan on immediately pursuing independence.

Or unless you, y'know, plan on pursuing independence next year but want to do a study of what opinions exist on how a declaration of independence should look? Or are still considering the issue and need time to think?

Again, Mira's an asari, her taking a year or two to think about a decision this big would hardly be out of character.

Versharl · Feb 6, 2018

[] Plan: Dealing with the Dumpster Fire
-[] Martial 1: Integrating Reforms: Time: 3 years. Cost: -50,000 yearly income Chance of Success: 60%
-[] Martial 2: Take Over the Explorer Corps: Time: 1 year. Cost: 20,000. Chance of Success: 85%.
-[] Diplomacy 1: Investigate the Secessionists: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 72%. Cost: 15,000 credits.
-[] Diplomacy 2: Start My Own: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: Variable depending on sub-options chosen. Cost: 23,000 credits.
-[] Stewardship 1: Rebalance Food Production: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 80%. Cost: 30,000 credits.
-[] Stewardship 2: Build More Docks: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 80%. Cost: 50,000 credits.
-[] Intrigue 1: Digging For Receipts: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 45%. Cost: 32,000 credits.
-[] Intrigue 2: Databanks: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 70%. Cost: 25,000 credits.
-[] Learning 1: Dispense the Fun Coupons: Time: 5 3 years locked, 10 8 years to effect. Chance of Success: 80%. Cost: -50,000 yearly income until effect.
-[] Learning 2: Emergency Response: Time: 1 year. Chance of Success: 50%. Cost: 50,000 credits.
-[] Personal 1: Personal Attention: Integrating Reforms
-[] Personal 2: Personal Attention: Start My Own
-[] Personal 3: Personal Attention: Emergency Response

Credit Reserves: 357,000 credits.
Yearly Income: 318,000 credits.
Budget: 357,000 + 318,000 = 675,000 credits
Expenditures: 50,000 + 20,000 + 15,000 + 23,000 + 30,000 + 50,000 + 32,000 + 25,000 + 50,000 + 50,000 + = 345,000 credits
Remaining Reserves: 330,000 credits

Military: We need to implement that damn reform now. It's going to hurt financially but we absolutely need the benefits from our doctrine. The Explorer Corps is because we need the learning option in order to deal with the medical issue of the Quarians.
Diplomacy: I have always been in favor of independence and thought it was mostly fear-mongering that made voters reject it. Nothing has changed except now we need to waste an entire year's worth of diplomacy actions to deal with the mess.
Stewardship: Food production because the Quarians are going to starve otherwise. Docks because the Quarian fleet needs to be based in a relatively central location so that they can reinforce Attican Beta in a speedy manner if it comes under attack by the Rachni. Can't have them stationed out in the middle of nowhere.
Intrigue: Still pissed at the Lystheni and now is as good a time as any to find out what they've been up to. Hacking the Quarians might seem distasteful but I think it's better than putting Admiral Malan in a position where he's arguably betraying the Republic by handing over military secrets.
Learning: Bit of a no-brainer here. Got to deal with the multiple medical crisis... again.
Personal: Shoring up the high DCs on some of the options.

uju32 said:
They're ALL located near the planets?
Citation please.

I can only cite the visual representation in the games and the fact that none of the relays in the game appear to be located in Oort-cloud equivalents.

uju32 said:
The GM literally said there's an extra vote after this to select where said outpost goes.
And none of the maps are to scale. There is literally no supporting data for the arguments being made.

The Galaxy Map is to scale, just fyi. The Cluster Map might not be but you're still planning on putting the military outpost significantly further away from the Relay than our other docks and surely you must admit that this will increase the response time of the fleet stationed there.

uju32 said:
We've been living with this reality for several years now and working with it.
We mine and fortify our relays heavily for this reason, as opposed to whatever tripwire the Rachni work with.
We still patrol the rest of the AB and KV clusters regardless.

No we haven't. There's a difference between a fleet patrolling a cluster and a fleet being stationed in a military outpost in a cluster.
But I'm not going to discuss this further with you before we get answers from Poptart. They should be able to clear this up.

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

LunarTinker said:
that is both very helpful and very concerning, trotzdem danke.

Your profile gives your country, so I just checked with Google.
And you're welcome

Versharl said:
I can only cite the visual representation in the games and the fact that none of the relays in the game appear to be located in Oort-cloud equivalents.

Not a representative sampling, as I'm sure you'd agree.
I don't know if there's any pattern to their stationing; I just know it's canon some are in deep space, and that I've come across no statement giving maximum distance from a planet.

Versharl said:
The Galaxy Map is to scale, just fyi.

No it isn't. Note the lack of any sort of scale in the map, as per 1 inch being equivalent to ten thousand light years or whatever.
Mass Effect is not hard SF that way.

Versharl said:
The Cluster Map might not be but you're still planning on putting the military outpost significantly further away from the Relay than our other docks and surely you must admit that this will increase the response time of the fleet stationed there.

Farther from our shipyards? Yes.
Far enough to make a material difference in response times to an attack? No data.
I just assume our military is competent, as they've proven so far.

Versharl said:
No we haven't. There's a difference between a fleet patrolling a cluster and a fleet being stationed in a military outpost in a cluster.

Based out of a military outpost, not stationed in. Significant difference.
Basing is not the same thing as stationing.

For a RL example, the US Seventh Fleet is headquartered and based in Yokosuka Japan, and operates as far forward as East Africa and the Persian Gulf.
But Yokosuka is where they go back to for repairs and spare parts, and where their supply depots are.
It's where their supply ships will run out of as well.

Versharl said:
But I'm not going to discuss this further with you before we get answers from Poptart. They should be able to clear this up.

Fair enough.

Simon_Jester · Feb 6, 2018

Versharl said:
Diplomacy: I have always been in favor of independence and thought it was pure fear-mongering that made voters reject it. Nothing has changed except now we need to waste an entire year's worth of diplomacy actions to deal with the mess.

Aaand the part where Mira has the ability to do more than sit on the sidelines and watch the legislature bypass her while writing its own declaration? Because that changed too.

Versharl · Feb 6, 2018

uju32 said:
No it isn't. Note the lack of any sort of scale in the map, as per 1 inch being equivalent to ten thousand light years or whatever.
Mass Effect is not hard SF that way.

That's not what "to scale" means. To scale just means that the sizes and distances of the objects in question aren't distorted in relation to one another. An example of sizes being to scale but distances being distorted is this image of our solar system.

Simon_Jester said:
Aaand the part where Mira has the ability to do more than sit on the sidelines and watch the legislature bypass her while writing its own declaration? Because that changed too.

What part of the declaration of independence would you change? Unless there's a substantial change, I stand by what I said.

Simon_Jester · Feb 6, 2018

@uju32 , I'm going to go with Versharl on the map thing. While the clusters on the map may not be exactly where they "really are," there doesn't seem to be any massive distortion- they really are distributed all over the galaxy. It is an inevitable consequence that they're far enough apart that secondary relays may not reliably be able to jump from one cluster to the next, if secondary relays normally have a range measured in hundreds of light years.

...

@Versharl , the entire point is that if we'd approved the vote, we wouldn't even get to read the declaration of independence as quest voters before deciding whether to approve it or not. We never actually saw the document the legislature was going to pass, because what they actually sent us wasn't the declaration itself, it was a bill pre-approving the legislature to write and pass a declaration. One that, it would appear Mira agrees, would bypass her veto.

So I have no idea what might or might not have gone into the declaration, that I might want to change. That's a large part of the point, and ultimately it was that issue being discussed that seems to have flipped the voters over from "pass" to "veto." There's a pro-independence majority among the set of all quest voters, but people weren't quite comfortable enough with the idea that the legislature can outflank Mira's veto, the main check on their authority, just by passing "a bill to pass a bill" and then wording the followup bill however they want.

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

Versharl said:
That's not what "to scale" means. To scale just means that the sizes and distances of the objects in question aren't distorted in relation to one another. An example of sizes being to scale but distances being distorted is this image of our solar system.

Let me clarify:
The distances on the Galaxy map are not to scale to the best of my knowledge; there is no objective measure for comparison though, so I can't declare it absolutely. I have no idea if the star clusters are to scale or not.

The image you posted has the stellar bodies to scale, but the distances are not.

Versharl · Feb 6, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
@Versharl , the entire point is that if we'd approved the vote, we wouldn't even get to read the declaration of independence as quest voters before deciding whether to approve it or not. We never actually saw the document the legislature was going to pass, because what they actually sent us wasn't the declaration itself, it was a bill pre-approving the legislature to write and pass a declaration. One that, it would appear Mira agrees, would bypass her veto.

So I have no idea what might or might not have gone into the declaration, that I might want to change. That's a large part of the point, and ultimately it was that issue being discussed that seems to have flipped the voters over from "pass" to "veto." There's a pro-independence majority among the set of all quest voters, but people weren't quite comfortable enough with the idea that the legislature can outflank Mira's veto, the main check on their authority, just by passing "a bill to pass a bill" and then wording the followup bill however they want.

It's a declaration of independence. What could you possibly put it in aside from declaring independence?

uju32 said:
Let me clarify:
The distances on the Galaxy map are not to scale to the best of my knowledge; there is no objective measure for comparison though, so I can't declare it absolutely. I have no idea if the star clusters are to scale or not.

Considering I made the Galaxy Map using an image of the Milky Way from NASA, I can say with a fairly high degree of certainty that the distances are to scale, even if the actual scale (e.g. 1:100,000) isn't depicted on the map.

The image you posted has the stellar bodies to scale, but the distances are not.

...Yes, I said that in my post.

gutza1 · Feb 6, 2018

Have to go to school, so I have to vote now:

[X] Plan Explorer Alternative

Tabron89 · Feb 6, 2018

Versharl said:
It's a declaration of independence. What could you possibly put it in aside from declaring independence?

Considering I made the Galaxy Map using an image of the Milky Way from NASA, I can say with a fairly high degree of certainty that the distances are to scale, even if the actual scale (e.g. 1:100,000) isn't depicted on the map.

...Yes, I said that in my post.

....I take it you never saw the American Consitution or maybe stuff like the Magna Carta?

Claiming independence makes you hash out new laws, as you are no longer bound the old government.

thamuzz · Feb 6, 2018

Versharl said:
It's a declaration of independence. What could you possibly put it in aside from declaring independence?

A picture of a giant space phallus violating the citadel?

Only, using ten thousand words instead of a pic.

sunrise · Feb 6, 2018

I would prefer to have the 3th fleet based at our new colony for multiple reasons:
Despite being based there it still can have most of the operational ships at a relay.
It gives patrolling ships a second spot to repair.
It will help protect the colony, because there will be part of the 3th fleet at the colony.
It will help the colony grow as work at the docs attracts workers.

Versharl · Feb 6, 2018

Tabron89 said:
....I take it you never saw the American Consitution or maybe stuff like the Magna Carta?

Claiming independence makes you hash out new laws, as you are no longer bound the old government.

The Magna Carta isn't a declaration of independence. It's was bill of rights granted to the nobility of England because of a pathetically weak king. The American Declaration of Independence is indeed a declaration of independence but it's also so much more than that. If our declaration was similar to the American one, I assume that Poptart would've stated so, since it vastly increase the scope and importance of the bill. Furthermore, it seems extremely unlikely to me that the Assembly wouldn't have involved us in the drafting of what is essentially a constitution.

uju32 · Feb 6, 2018

It's now approximately 12 hours since posting.
Voting is open.

VOTE
[X]Plan Bodyshop
-[X]Martial 1: Military Outposts: 40,000: DC 26 - Minister 11 = DC15
-[X]Martial 2: Take Over The Explorer Corps: 20,000: DC16 - Minister 11 = DC5
-[X]Diplomacy 1: PR, Always PR: 15,000: DC33 - Minister 11 = DC22
-[X]Diplomacy 2: Approach The Secessionists: 15,000: DC29 - Minister 11 = DC18
-[X]Stewardship 1: Expand The FDO: -35,000 Income: DC11 - Minister 10 = DC1
-[X]Stewardship 2: Rebalance Food Production: 30,000: DC21 - Minister 10 = DC11
-[X]Intrigue 1: Databanks: 25,000: DC31 - Minister 12= DC19
-[X]Intrigue 2: Digging For Receipts: 32,000: DC56 - Minister 12= DC44
-[X]Learning 1: Emergency Response: 50,000: DC51 - Minister 11= DC40
-[X]Learning 2: Dispense The Fun Coupons [Already costed into income]
-[X]Personal 1: Personal Attention Military Outposts [Martial 24]
-[X]Personal 2: Personal Attention Emergency Response [Learning 17]
-[X]Personal 3: Commit Hero: Kurik, Intrigue, Databanks [Kurik: Intrigue 15]

RESERVES: 357,000
INCOME: 318,000
BUDGET= 40,000+ 20,000+15,000+15,000+30,000+25,000+32,000+50,000 = 227,000 credits AND -35,000 Income

Nightlord256 · Feb 6, 2018

[X]Plan Bodyshop
-[X]Martial 1: Military Outposts: 40,000: DC 26 - Minister 11 = DC15
-[X]Martial 2: Take Over The Explorer Corps: 20,000: DC16 - Minister 11 = DC5
-[X]Diplomacy 1: PR, Always PR: 15,000: DC33 - Minister 11 = DC22
-[X]Diplomacy 2: Approach The Secessionists: 15,000: DC29 - Minister 11 = DC18
-[X]Stewardship 1: Expand The FDO: -35,000 Income: DC11 - Minister 10 = DC1
-[X]Stewardship 2: Rebalance Food Production: 30,000: DC21 - Minister 10 = DC11
-[X]Intrigue 1: Databanks: 25,000: DC31 - Minister 12= DC19
-[X]Intrigue 2: Digging For Receipts: 32,000: DC56 - Minister 12= DC44
-[X]Learning 1: Emergency Response: 50,000: DC51 - Minister 11= DC40
-[X]Learning 2: Dispense The Fun Coupons [Already costed into income]
-[X]Personal 1: Personal Attention Military Outposts [Martial 24]
-[X]Personal 2: Personal Attention Emergency Response [Learning 17]
-[X]Personal 3: Commit Hero: Kurik, Intrigue, Databanks [Kurik: Intrigue 15]

Enjou · Feb 6, 2018

[X]Plan Bodyshop

Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

Uncompromising Radical Leftist