Orks work as a parody, but they do slot neatly into the fascist brainworm of "big dumb violent brute-people with no culture and no depth, who exist mainly as a giant slab of meat for the Real People to either overpower or be crushed by."
Hmm. I guess then that the best way to turn the Orks around would be to make it explicit that they basically function on the rules of a fundamentally different genre. They have their own culture, depth, heroes and villains, criminals and lawmen, it´s just that it all functions through a distorted, you might say warped lens of comedic violence, which suddenly ceases to be comedic when they encounter other races. But even then, if you get it through their heads that yes, you aren't Orky and don't function on the same rules, they can absolutely be reasoned with.

Think of FFXIV, between Hildibrand quests and most other quests, perhaps. I'd bring up more examples but that particular questline is the only case of such extreme contrast in tone existing in the same setting while being more or less canon.
 
Hmm. I guess then that the best way to turn the Orks around would be to make it explicit that they basically function on the rules of a fundamentally different genre. They have their own culture, depth, heroes and villains, criminals and lawmen, it´s just that it all functions through a distorted, you might say warped lens of comedic violence, which suddenly ceases to be comedic when they encounter other races. But even then, if you get it through their heads that yes, you aren't Orky and don't function on the same rules, they can absolutely be reasoned with.

Think of FFXIV, between Hildibrand quests and most other quests, perhaps. I'd bring up more examples but that particular questline is the only case of such extreme contrast in tone existing in the same setting while being more or less canon.

People are probably aware considering the thread, but the original orks from when w40k was committed to the satire were football hooligans.

It's also important to remember that violence is how orks reproduce. They need to get beaten up to release their spores. So of course they're wired for it.

But none of this require violence with other species. Orks have the potential to get organized around (extremely violent) sports and ritualistically fighting each other.
 
AdMEch and Orks are the two parts i genuinely like and would love to see played with more.
AdMech because as, silly, as the toaster worshippers are, they have kept shit working for over ten thousand years, that's a lot.
I refuse to believe they don't know something we don't.
Also, machine spirits are basicly canon, which is interesting.

Orks because, well, they are fun, and they are a group that is actually having fun in setting.
And, once you move past the "stoopid orks don't know things don't work that way", you can actually understand that, for orks, red ones do go faster, it is not merely a superstition, but empirically provable fact.
Orks have commerce, fashion, music, they enjoy sports, good food/drink, they have hobbies and other leisure activities.
It's just all intetwined with violence, and the orks would have it no other way.
And if the author does not try to take themselves too seriously, you can do lot with all of that.

I want a story abour orkish diplomat and/or social scientist trying explain to their warboss that, for some incomprehensible reason, humans consider it rude to shoot your allies after, or during, the fight, and will refuse to ally with you later if you do.
 
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People are probably aware considering the thread, but the original orks from when w40k was committed to the satire were football hooligans.

It's also important to remember that violence is how orks reproduce. They need to get beaten up to release their spores. So of course they're wired for it.

But none of this require violence with other species. Orks have the potential to get organized around (extremely violent) sports and ritualistically fighting each other.
Like, say, a hyper-violent version of football? Maybe called something like Blood Bowl?
 
It's not possible to take the fascism out of 40k, it's hard-baked into the premise. Besides, getting to embrace the fascist mindset is sort of the whole appeal of the series. Getting to just empty your head and mindlessly saying "waaagh," "for the emperor," "blood for the blood god," etc while having Your Dudes slaughter ontologically deserving enemies is what you play 40k for.
 
It's not possible to take the fascism out of 40k, it's hard-baked into the premise. Besides, getting to embrace the fascist mindset is sort of the whole appeal of the series. Getting to just empty your head and mindlessly saying "waaagh," "for the emperor," "blood for the blood god," etc while having Your Dudes slaughter ontologically deserving enemies is what you play 40k for.
This is not the endorsement you think it is.
 
I don't buy that.
People have lot of reasons to play 40k, as well as read the stories.
And while fascism is fairly central the the Imperium, you can stop excusing it like the lore keeps doing.
 
Orks work as a parody, but they do slot neatly into the fascist brainworm of "big dumb violent brute-people with no culture and no depth, who exist mainly as a giant slab of meat for the Real People to either overpower or be crushed by."
I've never found the football hooligan stuff particularly funny, so that brainworm's influence predominated in my impression of them. For my own rebuild purposes, I'm inclined to retcon orks out entirely, and fill whatever gaps that leaves by developing other xeno species in more depth.
Maybe stitch together Rak'gol, Stryxis, and non-Tau-affiliated Kroot into an ecosystem or coalition, fresh off their own minor "dark age of technology." Trigger-happy Rak'gol commandos seeking psy-active crystalline relics are the John Connor to a yu'vath Skynet - reacting poorly to Imperials, and ready to blow themselves up rather than be captured, due to a fanatical revulsion at the idea of having their own free will compromised, which is contextually more-or-less rational since initially-subtle influence is their artificial enemy's preferred tactic. Heroes of their own story, easy to negotiate with... if you're willing to play fair, refrain from psychic shenanigans or macho posturing. Tech base is kind of crap compared to imperial standard, but they've still got ALL their STC-printout equivalents, and don't hoard secrets from each other for factional advantage, so proportionately more of them have access to their best stuff.
 
Does the imperium do this cynically or are its purge happy zealots genuinely convinced dissidents are otherwordly threats? Does it matter?
If Chaos exists as advertised it does, since their passion will fuel it. I can just see Khorne nodding with approval at the Inquisition as it rampages along murdering people; Khorne cares not from where the blood flows so long as it flows, and the Imperium makes a lot of blood flow.

And while fascism is fairly central the the Imperium, you can stop excusing it like the lore keeps doing.
In fact I think it's fairly easy to do so. As various people have pointed out in the past including myself, the canon Imperium is practically custom-made as an engine for Chaos; nearly everything it does feeds the Chaos Gods. Bloodthirsty and warlike? Extravagantly so. Plotting and conspiracies? All the time. Disease and decay? All over. Decadent self indulgence? Plenty.

The Imperium is not only a dystopia, it's entirely the wrong sort of dystopia to deal with its problems, which entirely undercuts any "it's a necessarily evil" defense. A dystopia built to deal with issues like the Warp would be one where people are kept stupid and emotionless or happy (drugs in the water?) in a regimented, orderly, healthy and peaceful society. The Imperium is passionate and chaotic, which is counterproductive against an emotion-powered opponent literally named Chaos.
 
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Alternatively, I think one thing you could do is keep orks their usual self but make it so that in the absence of outside enemies, they do find an equilibrium, rather than seek out the rest of the galaxy to fight. After all, no one give you a propa scrap like another ork band.

And everything else is just people poking them when they should know better.
 
Alternatively, I think one thing you could do is keep orks their usual self but make it so that in the absence of outside enemies, they do find an equilibrium, rather than seek out the rest of the galaxy to fight. After all, no one give you a propa scrap like another ork band.

And everything else is just people poking them when they should know better.
That's an interestingly subtle change.

After all, it's strongly implied even in ork canon that there are plenty of regions where orks are basically the dominant form of life, having ground down everyone else by wars of entertainment (to the orks) and attrition (to everyone else). And that yes, orks do a lot of infighting. They don't always go on a kind of Big Green Machine crusade against outside forces, they routinely do spend their time fighting one another in the absence of outside enemies.

It sounds like you'd just take that and amplify it a bit. Interesting.
 
That's an interestingly subtle change.

After all, it's strongly implied even in ork canon that there are plenty of regions where orks are basically the dominant form of life, having ground down everyone else by wars of entertainment (to the orks) and attrition (to everyone else). And that yes, orks do a lot of infighting. They don't always go on a kind of Big Green Machine crusade against outside forces, they routinely do spend their time fighting one another in the absence of outside enemies.

It sounds like you'd just take that and amplify it a bit. Interesting.
I'd be interested to see a story with 40K Orks where they're basically just people except they're goofy and chav-ish and love to punch the shit out of each other.

Maybe you even make them able to come back to life, so they're just having these giant Mad Max wars to keep themselves amused. 17776 But With Orks could be genuinely fun.
 
I'd be interested to see a story with 40K Orks where they're basically just people except they're goofy and chav-ish and love to punch the shit out of each other.

Maybe you even make them able to come back to life, so they're just having these giant Mad Max wars to keep themselves amused. 17776 But With Orks could be genuinely fun.
Iirc there is a planet in the warp exactly like that
 
It's not a new idea, but I think it'd be a good chage to the setting to present Chaos as something the Imperium directly creates. Rather than like, it being a subtext theme, make it as explicit as possible. Planetary governor starves the underhives -> Nurgle cult. Space marines massacre innocents -> Khorne demon. Imperium kills an alien civilization -> a Black Crusade almost kills the Imperium. Chaos isn't the biggest threat to the galaxy. It's the galaxy's psychic immune system going nuts trying to fight the Imperium.
 
This is not the endorsement you think it is.
I didn't intend it as an endorsement.

I don't buy that.
People have lot of reasons to play 40k, as well as read the stories.
I suppose the 40k setting's "ripoff pastiche of other sci-fi media" nature does hold an appeal of its own, separate from the fascism. I struggle to think of any other appeal, it's not like 40k novels have ever been particularly well written. I suppose pure nostalgia might be a reason to [consume media], it has been around for a very long time now.

And while fascism is fairly central the the Imperium, you can stop excusing it like the lore keeps doing.
I mean, you could. But that would make it harder to market and sell the game and spinoff media which focuses on the Imperium, so that's never going to happen. GW will instead just make it less (overtly) fascist.
 
"It's not that all mutants are evil, it's just that many mutations are signs of the secret taint of Chaos infestation, and the only way to be sure humanity is safe in 40k is to destroy mutants for looking too different!"
Been thinking about that whole "twisted in flesh means twisted in soul" thing. How about allowing that it's true, but dropping the part where there's an objectively correct standard soul-shape? I think there was even a thing in the fiction at some point where that was part of a gotcha clause - somebody promising "of equal value," implying "equal or greater," but then getting screwed because strictly speaking no two souls in all the universe are exactly equal.

Anyway, shrine worlds as a warp-route terraforming program. Navigators and Farseers get together, go over progress reports. "There's been some off-axis wobble in that turbulent vortex coming from the plum blossom monastery on the southern peninsula. Not immediately critical, but if we want certification for a safe route all the way to Ixaniad, have to sort that out somehow within the next decade or three. Seems like what's needed is someone with ego-syntonic asymmetric self-image."
So they send out recruiters, bringing in disabled veterans who are justifiably proud of having lost an arm or leg doing something heroic, folks who look in the mirror and think "this eyepatch makes me look badass," many variations. Plum blossom monastery's internal culture shifts in subtle but precisely measurable ways with each addition, the Warp churns accordingly, models are refined.
"We've gotten closer," says the planning committee, "but pride and injury are adding the wrong kind of turbulence. Keystone will have to be someone with saintly wisdom and patience, one arm twice the size of the other, a third ear, no broken bones or bionics, and who considers all that completely normal, unremarkable." So they send scouts to various polluted post-industrial hellholes.
"Of course I'd be glad to serve the wider Imperium," says the underhive gang leader equivalent of Fred Rogers, toting an enormous chainsaw-axe while handing out bowls of soup to orphans with his other, much smaller arm, "but can't you see I'm already doing important work here? If I left, who would take care of my people?"
"We're prepared to offer you twelve million thrones per year for fifty years, plus juvenat treatments, background checks and other support for hiring offworld experts, as well as general legal advocacy. You could buy a lot of soup with that, or just about anything else they might need. If even one starship arrives safely which, but for your involvement, would have been lost, we'll still come out ahead on the deal."
Lopsided Fred asks some follow-up questions, discovers that their second-best candidate is statistically expected to lose three more ships over the relevant period, so he haggles up to twenty million per year for thirty years with a renewal option. Crew of long-suffering but adequately paid tech-priests shuttles in to build a community vegetable garden and small, highly eccentric palace, all to the lumpy orphan kids' precise specifications.
 
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Not sure if this idea has been mentioned (and I don't want to read 100+ pages to find out), but one idea that's occurred to me is to make Chaos inhuman-but-quasi-benevolent rather than objectively totally awful. That is, have Chaos still be about elemental emotions and drives, but actually positively inclined towards its followers; and its followers in turn mostly well meaning if possessed of a skewed viewpoint.

So, for example Khorne basically runs Valhalla, and his followers are always looking for a fight but don't attack anyone who doesn't reciprocate because it's neither glorious or exciting to just boringly kill people. Followers of Slaanesh still seek out extreme and unusual sensations but they enjoy it all rather than it being an addiction, and want the people they deal with to enjoy it too, and actually understand what the word "consensual" means. Tzeetchians are plotting against the Imperium, but, well, it deserves to be plotted against.

The Imperium on the other hand tries to destroy them not because they are "Ruinous", but because they are different. Chaos in this view offers a way to survive and be happy while the Imperium just offers "Orderly" misery. And most of the attacks they receive from Chaos are provoked by them, one way or another; if they want to fight then Khornates are certainly not going to say no.
 
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Not sure if this ideas has been mentioned (and I don't want to read 100+ pages to find out), but one idea that's occurred to me is to make Chaos inhuman-but-quasi-benevolent rather than objectively totally awful. That is, have Chaos still be about elemental emotions and drives, but actually positively inclined towards its followers; and its followers in turn mostly well meaning if possessed of a skewed viewpoint.

So, for example Khorne basically runs Valhalla, and his followers are always looking for a fight but don't attack anyone who doesn't reciprocate because it's neither glorious or exciting to just boringly kill people. Followers of Slaanesh still seek out extreme and unusual sensations but they enjoy it all rather than it being an addiction, and want the people they deal with to enjoy it too, and actually understand what the word "consensual" means. Tzeetchians are plotting against the Imperium, but, well, it deserves to be plotted against.

The Imperium on the other hand tries to destroy them not because they are "Ruinous", but because they are different. Chaos in this view offers a way to survive and be happy while the Imperium just offers "Orderly" misery. And most of the attacks they receive from Chaos are provoked by them, one way or another; if they want to fight then Khornates are certainly not going to say no.
Mentioned that one myself ages ago. But yeah, it's the easiest and most uncomplicated solution. Tzeentch is Hope afterall. Hope and ambition can be as good or evil as humanity itself. Khorne is rage, but there is both the rage of the inhuman berserker and the righteous rage of the guardian who stands against tyranny. Nergal loves all life equally, so let his truly devoted followers be completely symbiotic with all their little passengers and be unharmed by them. Let there be prayers to Nergal not to take away disease but to intercede and speak with it on your behalf. Slaanesh is passion and excess. Both the poet who brings joy and tears and the madman who paints a masterpiece with human blood.
 
Something I have come to consider a disappointment of sorts is the missed potential when it comes to the Night Lords Legion.

On one hand, they fill a niche that is absolutely needed to drive home the horrors of the Imperium of Man. Even with the most generous interpretations of the Emperor and his Great Crusade, you have an unsightly blemish in the form of the Night Lords being a useful bunch of self-serving monsters that the Emperor tolerated / was willing to entertain a blindspot for as long as he could pretend Curze wasn't That Bad and they got results. And again that's with the most generous interpretations: The Emperor unintentionally making a Leopards Eating People's Faces While The People Are Still Alive Legion and and tolerating it out of pragmatism. The more common / neutral implication being that he absolutely knew what they were doing [wanted them doing it, no less!] and signed off on it because they shaved a couple years off the Crusade atrocities be damned. The worst that he didn't give a fuck about it and the only reason the Night Lords were abnormal was that they merely didn't pretend to be what they aren't.

This is a damned vital niche to fill when it comes to displaying the fucked up society that is the IoM and how even in its "Golden Age" there was terrible shit beneath that veneer of gold. You just... don't get it, for most of the other Legions. Especially in newer lore. GW has spent a bunch of effort to try and make the other Legio more 'human' [despite them being post-human galactic conquerors]. Especially with GW reducing so many other baddies into "lol it was Chaos / possession / insanity". The IoM needs something to have been a terrible blemish that cannot be conveniently blamed on Chaos or One Bad Apple Spoiling The Rest [Curze, quite explicitly, hates his Legion, and in many cases the feeling's mutual outside a respect for his capacity to do and enabling of Horrible Things].

But on the other hand. On the other hand. It writes itself: Really? Really? We are supposed to take it at face value that Nostramans are just built different, pay no mind to the sheer coincidence the moment Curze ceded Nostramo to the Emperor's Great Crusade they slid immediately back into the same lopsided government he had overthrown, and that The Administratum Couldn't Do Anything About It the inequalities just rapidly reasserted themselves crime magically skyrocketed after the removal of one single person and the Societal Undesirables just coincidentally kept filtering into Legion?

You have a world - no, I apologize: Explicitly an entire system: Night Lord lore explicitly mentioned in the old Index Astartes how he found out from intersystem traders - that in the span of a singular generation had its inequalities removed by the removal of every single despot that Curze didn't think he could press his thumb down on hard enough to play nice in the new system, and with Curze's removal the Administratum... magically couldn't do the same job as one person to keep at least one star system from falling back into the same groups' hands? And for that matter practically everyone that system recruited after the first generation was a bunch of horrific baby-eating self-serving murdering societal rejects who had no concern for anyone beyond He Himself And Him?

While 40K absolutely needs somebody to show that the Great Crusade's shit stunk too, that it was an interstellar bunch of murderers and ne'erdowells draped in the legitimacy and glory of a gilded despot, there was just as much potential to use them as a stepping stone of "Gee. It sure is convenient that the Imperium Did Its Best but Some People Are Just So Bad that despite giving them everything they could have ever wanted they still bit the hand that fed them". Or, for that matter, to introduce Traitor Marines who are just. Like. People who grew up watching their star system abolish economic and social inequalities. Dared to buy into the hype of such spreading through the galaxy. And then watched everything crumble around them. With stark division between those whom this broke, those who in desperation [for better or worse] threw their lot in with the Chaotic Powers... and those who just keep the legend of the original Night Haunter alive. Astartes who prowl the edges of Imperial Space and just.... topple the Noble Houses. Convince planets to throw off the yoke of Imperial Rule, whether in good faith or even just to try and make ever more fires for the IoM to have to put out [and thus increasing the odds of something slipping through the cracks or the inadequacies of the system catching up with it].

I guess I'm just disappointed that the Night Lords were reduced to a singular, unironic and straight-faced hat while every other Legion is given kiddy gloves to go "And that's why Chaos ruined everything". It diminishes the horrors of the Great Crusade, goes uncomfortable places with the idea of Some People Are Just Born Criminal And It Can Be Measurably Tracked In The Genome, and removes the potential for several thematic hooks.
 
It's not possible to take the fascism out of 40k, it's hard-baked into the premise. Besides, getting to embrace the fascist mindset is sort of the whole appeal of the series. Getting to just empty your head and mindlessly saying "waaagh," "for the emperor," "blood for the blood god," etc while having Your Dudes slaughter ontologically deserving enemies is what you play 40k for.
As someone who loves 40k and has done so for literally half her existence, I'm very, very comfortable saying you are very, very wrong.
 
That doesn't sound like an objective nor reliable source. Do you have any citations from objective and reliable sources to prove your view?

There are several fanfics and quests here on sufficient velocity and on space battles that seem to have done a reasonably good job of avoiding the fascist mindset. They don't have a perspective that glorifies fascism or treats it as the only solution to the challenges of the Warhammer setting.

The completed Quest "Suffer Not - The Story of Inquisitor Joanyn Praxis" is one excellent example.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Suffer Not ≡][≡ 40k Inquisition Quest Archive - Mature

A 40k quest.

You can find more by simply doing a tag search. I would recommend starting out with Dragoncobalt's work as he has a particular humorous (and occasionally pornographic) method of challenging setting assumptions.
 
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There are several fanfics and quests here on sufficient velocity and on space battles that seem to have done a reasonably good job of avoiding the fascist mindset. They don't have a perspective that glorifies fascism or treats it as the only solution to the challenges of the Warhammer setting.

The completed Quest "Suffer Not - The Story of Inquisitor Joanyn Praxis" is one excellent example.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Suffer Not ≡][≡ 40k Inquisition Quest Archive - Mature

A 40k quest.

You can find more by simply doing a tag search. I would recommend starting out with Dragoncobalt's work as he has a particular humorous (and occasionally pornographic) method of challenging setting assumptions.

I wouldn't say Suffer Not is a poster child for "not having fascism" in 40k?

Like - it does have fascism in it? The Imperium is an awful fascist regime in Suffer Not. That's not really something it shies away from?
 
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