SV does not have an odd problem with bigotry

Huh.

I haven't actually read Worm, because it's long as fuck, but all this time I thought Brockton Bay was a fictional version of Boston, given the map and the fact that it's named after Brockton, part of the bay area.

That's diverse as fuck, IRL. Brockton is a whole 42% white.

Brockton Bay isn't Boston. The characters actually go to Boston at one point, its a different city.

Now, there actually is a good explanation for there not being more black people in Brockton Bay, and its important to the plot. Brockton Bay is supposed to be the neo-nazi capital of the eastern United States, with the biggest gang in town being a white supremacist group. These guys are fairly major antagonists throughout the early part of the story, and I would only expect most of the black people to have moved away because of them.

WHERE THAT FALLS APART, however, is later in the story when the main character briefly moves to Chicago. And there are even fewer black characters there.

Yeah.
 
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Now, there actually is a good explanation for there not being more black people in Brockton Bay, and its important to the plot. Brockton Bay is supposed to be the neo-nazi capital of the eastern United States, with the biggest gang in town being a white supremacist group. These guys are fairly major antagonists throughout the early part of the story, and I would only expect most of the black people to have moved away because of them.
So... Worm takes place in the only city on the east coast that doesn't have minorities, because a white nationalist movement was so successful that it went past redlining and segregation and actually performed a full-scale ethnic cleansing?

That honestly seems like the kind of thing I'd have heard before. :thonk:
 
So... Worm takes place in the only city on the east coast that doesn't have minorities, because a white nationalist movement was so successful that it went past redlining and segregation and actually performed a full-scale ethnic cleansing?

That honestly seems like the kind of thing I'd have heard before. :thonk:

No, Brockton has a fair share of non white people. It's just that the minority population apparently boomed due to refugees at some point, and then presunably shrunk again when the Nazis started proliferating.

But that is not explicitly stated in worm, this is fan conjecture.
 
I mean, Worm plays it very "Yeah, whatever" when it comes to character descriptions of minor characters and extras. So there's plenty of parts in the serial where there may or may not be black people in the scene, it just isn't mentioned. Meanwhile there's several major black characters, even if they don't get as much focus as they deserved.
 
Like this may be a shock to you, but there are like, black people in Japan. There are lots of non-white, non-asian people in the actual IRL times and places in which lots of anime (or for that matter, holywood movies) are set.

There's no actual *reason* to for not having people of color in these stories other than an author not wanting to include them.

It's not "because of their culture" There have been black people in Japan and Japanese cultural awareness for centuries.

I think you are rather overstating that, to be honest. Japan is a pretty solid example of a monoculture - it was isolated for hundreds of years and even now the population is 98.5% ethnic Japanese. There are definitely other Asians, and Europeans, and Americans, and Africans in Japan but... not that many, when push comes to shove, to the point where including even two non-Japanese characters in your Japan-set story is already pushing the boundaries of realistic diversity (unless, of course, you are deliberately focusing on non-Japanese in Japan, as in Lost in Translation, for example).
 
there is even less reason for just randomly shoehorning them in, and that'd have to occur to somebody to do.
you'd be better off writing your own setting (and original fiction is a desert here). so what this really boils down to is more an argument about not liking the things sv likes, race never enters into it unless dragged in.

Fun fact: Every fictional character is artificially created, 'shoehorned' if you will.

And the lack of occurring to put in a wider variety of people is... the whole point. Groups get overlooked, and because they're not in stuff it doesn't occur to others to do so, and when they do it's often met with accusations of 'shoehorning,' that's the issue, that's the structural problem.




Heck, it's not even like all major anime have a lack. Naruto has a village with a large black population (and by 'village' I mean 'ninja village/world power'). Full Metal Alchemist has Ishbalans who're basically Muslim and definitely neither white nor asian. Black Lagoon, multi-ethnic cast. It's doable and when it happens it's no more shoehorned than anyone else.
 
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lol if I wanted internet points I'd copy/paste from the ones with internet points and watch them mindlessly roll in. of course I don't want internet points.
because people decide what the story is going to be before they try to talk and nothing can budge their favored delusion. it's like talking to religious people
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how then would you fix it?
(some) facts of the matter are: 1 sv's creativewriting section is by and large a fanfic site. 2 the particular sources that have been popular here generally include only white or whitelooking characters(which is not a statement on "the site's" racial preferences so much as just the stylistic conventions of their favored entertainment niche). 3 furthermore only a handful of settings ever get any traction because of how things snowball and take over so good luck writing anything else. 4 and most importantly nobody likes ocs.
so how is failing to stuff a fic with ocs for diversity's sake like a 90s cartoon racist? (especially as it's something that would only occur to you to do if you already had race on the brain for.... i donno, some reason. there must be something that makes sense right? i mean besides an si, inserts don't count)

"stop liking what i don't like(you weeb)" is not a social justice-based argument, and nothing short of that would be meaningful. throwing out buzzwords about the japanese media as a generic faceless monolith is irrelevant, so what else is there?


so what even are we arguing here? is it nothing, just another pointless internet debate? or only wanting to be 'seen' to argue it?

edit- at least I assume they're on about the crw section and not "nonscifi debate" which doesn't have any room for representation of any kind aside from the participants' avatars?
The more time I spend on this site, the more often I see people who fit into actual caricatures. It's hilarious. Here, we have the wild poster saying that media from Japan, an incredibly xenophobic and racist country, doesn't actually have a problem with diversity. This person is also trying to give excuses for this site's racial bias, assuming that if you have a good enough explanation for something problematic, it no longer is a problem. Fantastic.
 
lol if I wanted internet points I'd copy/paste from the ones with internet points and watch them mindlessly roll in. of course I don't want internet points.
because people decide what the story is going to be before they try to talk and nothing can budge their favored delusion. it's like talking to religious people
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how then would you fix it?
(some) facts of the matter are: 1 sv's creativewriting section is by and large a fanfic site. 2 the particular sources that have been popular here generally include only white or whitelooking characters(which is not a statement on "the site's" racial preferences so much as just the stylistic conventions of their favored entertainment niche). 3 furthermore only a handful of settings ever get any traction because of how things snowball and take over so good luck writing anything else. 4 and most importantly nobody likes ocs.
so how is failing to stuff a fic with ocs for diversity's sake like a 90s cartoon racist? (especially as it's something that would only occur to you to do if you already had race on the brain for.... i donno, some reason. there must be something that makes sense right? i mean besides an si, inserts don't count)

"stop liking what i don't like(you weeb)" is not a social justice-based argument, and nothing short of that would be meaningful. throwing out buzzwords about the japanese media as a generic faceless monolith is irrelevant, so what else is there?


so what even are we arguing here? is it nothing, just another pointless internet debate? or only wanting to be 'seen' to argue it?

edit- at least I assume they're on about the crw section and not "nonscifi debate" which doesn't have any room for representation of any kind aside from the participants' avatars?
You are being the problem. Stop being the problem.
 
I think you are rather overstating that, to be honest. Japan is a pretty solid example of a monoculture - it was isolated for hundreds of years and even now the population is 98.5% ethnic Japanese. There are definitely other Asians, and Europeans, and Americans, and Africans in Japan but... not that many, when push comes to shove, to the point where including even two non-Japanese characters in your Japan-set story is already pushing the boundaries of realistic diversity (unless, of course, you are deliberately focusing on non-Japanese in Japan, as in Lost in Translation, for example).
actual japanese works often do have non-japanese, non white characters, though admittedly rarely as main roles.

The japanese are aware of diversity and do in fact portray it.

The guy i was replying to was using what you just said as justification to say "nah, there shouldn't be representation." But there actually is, IRL, representation, so we can conclude that plenty of japanese themselves do not agree with that statement.

Japan is not some race-blind monolith - it's dominant ethnic group may be a huge majority, but they are plenty aware of the ethnic and religious minorities in their midst. I'm not sure what even counts as a monoculture, but i'm pretty skeptical that any such thing exists on a scale larger than a village.
 
Okay so I've read these last few posts repeatedly and I think I got this. He's trying to say that the lack of PoC or diverse characters in anime fan-fiction is less about the author being racist and more like the source material not having characters that meet the criteria. And if the source material doesn't meet that criteria then the author shouldn't have to create new ones because there's a stigma against OC's in fan-fiction. I think that's what he's trying to argue.

I'm suddenly reminded of the Imaginary Number Problem thread because this feels like something that'd fit there.
 
actual japanese works often do have non-japanese, non white characters, though admittedly rarely as main roles.

The japanese are aware of diversity and do in fact portray it.

The guy i was replying to was using what you just said as justification to say "nah, there shouldn't be representation." But there actually is, IRL, representation, so we can conclude that plenty of japanese themselves do not agree with that statement.

Japan is not some race-blind monolith - it's dominant ethnic group may be a huge majority, but they are plenty aware of the ethnic and religious minorities in their midst. I'm not sure what even counts as a monoculture, but i'm pretty skeptical that any such thing exists on a scale larger than a village.

My point was more that Japan - and Japanese culture - is significantly less diverse (though I accept that 'monoculture' is perhaps a bit of an overstatement) than a lot of western cultures, and that a realistic representation of Japan would need to reflect that. That said, I would certainly agree with your overall point about there being room for some diversity in Japanocentric fiction and that to assume (and promote) zero non-Japanese representation would be a mistake.
 
a couple months back the Toronto PD caught a serial killer who spent years murdering LGBT people because the cops didn't give a shit (and then turned around and blamed "the community" for not cooperating with the investigation when they finally did their fucking job and caught the guy).

Torontonian here.

There were literally professors teaching crime related course in universities predicting there was a serial killer active in the LGBT years ago and it took until 2018 for the police to catch him.
 
everything is asians, white people, and white looking asians? well sv is a bunch of weebs. is this meant to be news?
Why does SV have so many problems with bigotry despite the tighter regulations it has compaired to other sites?
change despite to because. if you're hairtrigger about it you get tons of incidence reports. conversely if you're pol you generate none at all despite every 12th word being "kike". just like drug arrests going solely by report/enforcement statistics is a terrible way to track crime.
So... Worm takes place in the only city on the east coast that doesn't have minorities, because a white nationalist movement was so successful that it went past redlining and segregation and actually performed a full-scale ethnic cleansing?

That honestly seems like the kind of thing I'd have heard before. :thonk:
it's an alternate setting where the east coast was swarmed with japanese migrants(why not west cost?) after half the country sank. they kindof pushed out the others in port towns, and brocton's incredibly racist and territorial white and asian gangs finished the job. ;) yeah wildbow doesn't know how that sort of thing works. if you're feeling unusually charitable abb and e88 might plausibly have squeezed out any notable gangs and parahumans, and the rest of the people are just nameless extras so you could pretend theres a normal amount of civilians that skitter just didn't deign to notice, she isn't exactly the sanest or most reliable of narrators anyway.
The more time I spend on this site, the more often I see people who fit into actual caricatures. It's hilarious. Here, we have the wild poster saying that media from Japan, an incredibly xenophobic and racist country, doesn't actually have a problem with diversity. This person is also trying to give excuses for this site's racial bias, assuming that if you have a good enough explanation for something problematic, it no longer is a problem. Fantastic.
lol I said nothing of the sort. you're just transparently trying to shove words into my mouth.
based solely on internet anecdotes(a mistake) japan sounds racist as fuck compared to western countries in general, but that has nothing to do with sufficient velocity having too many white characters. the argument that "irl japan has some black people now, so fanfics of settings that don't seem to contain any should just have a few dozen thrown in for representation" is stupid (in my opinion, who's else would it be).

it's not "if a problematic blabla good enough explanation it's fine" it's not an excuse it's being sensible and actually looking at the problem instead of just a virtuesignal circlejerk. what I said was "you seem to be shoehorning in something to worry about that isn't even there, the root cause is entirely external and partially imaginary, tangent: if you want to blame the japanese media that's fine i guess but utterly pointless to discussing 'how sv can overcome this troubling trend' /tangent. so if you see a problem here how would you fix it?"

like I said, crw writes whatever setting is popular and tends to blot out anything but the current fad. sv is infested with weaboos so it's usually anime. anime exclusively has white looking japanese characters(the reason for this isn't important to us). so in order to pad out the numbers to match population stats you'd have to either switch people's races for no reason(or when dealing with a strangely aryan nonwhite cartoon character, go out of the way to describe them as their race because they'll default to their cannon depiction. theres no way that won't come off racist) or stuff it with oc who happen to be "ethnic", and people hate both of those things so the few fics who think to do something so strange are unpopular. using the characters and settings without splashing on a coat of blackwash isn't racist (to me it seems like doing so would be) so all that thread I pointed at seems to actually be doing is just bitching about the shows the fic writers like. the only nonshit solution I can see would be supplying your own original fiction, but this site hates that more than it does ocs or using anybody but taylor hebert as the main character.
theres a reason the only nonwhite nonasian (and since when did asians not count?) people in crw are si and it isn't most naturally summed up as "sv has a bigotry problem".
it's all well and good to pat yourself on the back for being enlightened enough to see an issue, but is the problem really with sv and if so what do you intend to do about it. the most important step in identifying an issue is noting potential solutions.

"stop liking the things you like" is not one of the practical ones and even if it were it's not an argument related to bigotry (unless you count shitting on weaboos, but nobody is actually doing that, page 1 "nerds are the modern jew" not withstanding) but what else is there

getting mad at sv for the perceived racial bias in japanese cartoons is like calling your local newspaper racist because they reported on a raceriot

The japanese are aware of diversity and do in fact portray it.

The guy i was replying to was using what you just said as justification to say "nah, there shouldn't be representation." But there actually is, IRL, representation, so we can conclude that plenty of japanese themselves do not agree with that statement.

again, your words down my throat.
you're the one who brought up japan's media. all I said was that the "brownest" person in familiar of zero is the germanian for example. so if fanfics of the setting have no 'representation' there is a very logical reason for that with nothing to do with bigotry. any perception of which is all in the eye of some beholder bringing their own issues to the table
 
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change despite to because. if you're hairtrigger about it you get tons of incidence reports. conversely if you're pol you generate none at all despite every 12th word being "kike".

I wonder if there might be another factor here beyond being "hairtrigger". :thonk:

what I said was "you seem to be shoehorning in something to worry about that isn't even there, the root cause is entirely external and partially imaginary, tangent: if you want to blame the japanese media that's fine i guess but utterly pointless to discussing 'how sv can overcome this troubling trend' /tangent. so if you see a problem here how would you fix it?"

You don't need to automatically have a solution to be aware that there's a problem. But hey, if you want a solution- spreading awareness of an issue is a solution in itself because it allows for people that were unaware that there was some sort of problem or discrepancy to now know that there is. They can then potentially act in their own ways to correct this discrepancy, or come up with ideas to work on the problem indirectly. And if a good amount of people do that, maybe the problem can start to be solved? It isn't all about coming up with a solution ourselves and solving some complex and nuanced issue with a pat answer. Sometimes it's more complicated than that, and sometimes it takes people coming together and taking the problem piece by piece to solve it rather than just throwing an answer out there and going "Here's a solution!"
 
empty words. awareness that naruto only has white technically asians (none of which are labels that actually apply as it is set in a fantasy world) doesn't add a black ninja clan, and nobody likes the type of oc centrisc stories necessary to add one.
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if anything just bitching about silly imaginary problems does nothing but devalue actual 'awareness' attempts. now if sv had a problem with racist portrayals of nonwhite characters that'd be a different conversation. (personally i think some lung depictions get a bit "archie bunker" style non malicious steriotyping for example where his actual character is ignored in favor of asian warlord tropes, and the lesbian shipping fixation is perhaps a bit more problematic, but this isn't what that thread was talking about)

if everything is racist nothing is. the word stops being a word. if sv crw has a problem due entirely to uncontrollable external sources then this "awareness" is less than static and people just stop listening.
 
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Hot Take: None of what you just said matters, because it doesn't even attempt to grapple with the argument at play. It's a fictional setting and a diagetic argument does not counter this kind of criticism because the diagetic argument doesn't actually address the criticism of the authors choice since as a fictional world it's wholly mutable and the creators chose to make it that way to justify it. You are missing the point entirely.
 
empty words. awareness that naruto only has white technically asians (none of which are labels that actually apply as it is set in a fantasy world) doesn't add a black ninja clan, and nobody likes the type of oc centrisc stories necessary to add one.
Naruto has Kumogakure as the only ninja village with a ethnicity as close to black people as possible. Someone could theoretically write a fanfiction with that village as the main location but then question becomes whether or not you use a character like Karui or Omoi as the main characters or create your own OC. At this point the main problem becomes retaining reader interest. There's a good reason for why most stories are set around Konohagakure. It's the village with the most screen-time, with the most characters, the most well known and liked characters, and its hard to justify the fan favorite(Naruto) being in any other village for a good reason without serious AU/For Want of a Nail elements that might alienate the audience even more.

Hot Take: None of what you just said matters, because it doesn't even attempt to grapple with the argument at play. It's a fictional setting and a diagetic argument does not counter this kind of criticism because the diagetic argument doesn't actually address the criticism of the authors choice since as a fictional world it's wholly mutable and the creators chose to make it that way to justify it. You are missing the point entirely.
The world is mutable but if you're dealing with a fanfiction set in fictional Japan than the author has to put in extra work to justify unlikely changes. Changing one characters race is one way to alienate a lot of readers, not because they're racist but because any serious deviancy from the characters established....character(?) is enough to drive a lot of people away. OC's are one of the biggest red flags for some people who read fanfiction. Now the argument can be made that fanfiction authors should totally put in the work to do all of those things but fanfiction writers write for fun and I don't think that reason should ever be bad or problematic.

I wonder if there might be another factor here beyond being "hairtrigger". :thonk:
I think he was saying that SV occupies the opposite of the spectrum of a place like /pol/ when it comes to reporting stuff like this. /pol/ has way too little reports while SV has too many.
 
No, they don't. Again a diagetic argument used to counter criticism of things beyond the diagesis is only meant to shut down criticism and not actually discuss the artistic decisions of the creator like, "why does the author think being set in Japan preclude having black characters?" The answer is it doesn't and the diagetic argument has no place in this discussion, the text is not an objective historical document it is a work of fiction and the creator makes decisions, consciously or not. In short we're not concerned with the in-universe justification to not have minority protagonists because as a work of fiction the creator crafted that world to "logically" preclude them, we're examining or criticizing why the author chose to craft his world to do so.


You're literally not addressing the criticism being levied because you don't even understand it. Your defense is completely orthogonal to the point.
 
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No, they don't. Again a diagetic argument used to counter criticism of things beyond the diagesis is only meant to shut down criticism and not actually discuss the artistic decisions of the creator like, "why does the author think being set in Japan preclude having black characters?" The answer is it doesn't and the diagetic argument has no place in this discussion, the text is not an objective historical document it is a work of fiction and the creator makes decisions, consciously or not. In short we're not concerned with the in-universe justification to not have minority protagonists because as a work of fiction the creator crafted that world to "logically" preclude them, we're examining or criticizing why the author chose to do craft his narrative to do so.

"How do you kill a Vampire?"

In regards to fan-fiction? Depends on the setting. Every single time.

*5 minutes later*

Nice video but I don't think this addressed the point I was trying to make.

There's a difference between fanfiction and original work and its all in expectations. When it comes to fanficition the readers expect something reminiscent of the previous work and they expect something that is internally consistent within that original work. AU's exist but there's a reason that they're a subgenre of fanfiction. Arguing that it doesn't matter because its all the authors choice is irrelevant because the medium they're working in has certain constraints they have to work with in order to get people to read their story.

If an original work has no brown people then yeah you have a point in saying that the internal consistency doesn't matter because the author made the decision to not include brown people. But if a fanfiction set in Konoha in Naruto doesn't have a black character as part of the main cast from the village, or it has a Naruto with the skin color he had in the show then internal consistency matters because its taking most of its key elements from the original show. They can make the decision to change those key elements but again, this has the risk of alienating their readers. Not because the readers are racist but because the readers want to read about Naruto and the more AU-elements and serious changes you throw in then the higher the chance they won't be interested.

I think that internal consistency is relevant to this conversation if we're going to be talking about fanfiction because that's the influence that the original work has and if you wanna say that the original works influence on the fanfiction is irrelevant then this conversation is pointless.

Now if you're trying to argue that fanfiction writers shouldn't care about wanting the most people to read their work or that they should put in the extra effort to justify and integrate AU elements into the story without losing readers then that is a fine point to make but that leads to the question of "Are fanfiction writers obligated to write for any other reason besides enjoying themselves and wanting to display their fondness for the original work?"

tldr; Ignoring the influence an original work has on the fanfiction it produces because its all the fanfiction author's choice is cutting off a very relevant part of the discussion and we shouldn't do that. Internal consistency matters when you're discussing fanfiction since it relates to an already established world even if it is fictional.
 
Again your argument is orthogonal to my point, it does not even attempt to engage it. I'm not saying the original works influence is wholly irrelevant, I'm saying the originally work is part of the problem and appealing to in- universe reasons of why there's so few black characters in worm does not address the criticism that the author made a political decision in doing so.

You mentioned you can't have a Naruto series where Naruto has a different skin color except from what I've heard there's an almost all black village of ninjas why couldn't you write a Naruto fanfic where his dad, or one of his grandparents, were from this village? It's totally within the diagesis and still works. Y'see, you've made a political decision to preclude fanfics where Naruto has any other skin tone except the one you've decided is most acceptable.

This is the problem with diagetic arguments, especially in fan fiction, it's only ever used to preclude things rather than question the reason they made those creative decision even though going against the diagesis is often the entire point of many interesting fanfics. All fan fiction is AU
 
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You can not honestly believe that it was a political decision to not have a bevy of black characters in Worm, I'd say its more social factors. And no, me deciding to not read about black Naruto in Kumogakure or not wanting to write that story is not political. For the former the reason is because I believe an OC would be better than arbitrarily making Naruto black and the latter is just laziness :cry:


I didn't say you couldn't have a Naruto fanfiction where Naruto is black. I said that doing so would require extra effort on the author's part to justify that change and still retain readers in spite of it. Naruto's lineage actually becomes important later in the show and changing his Dad would change a lot of things which again requires the author to justify those changes and make them consistent with canon or change key elements of canon to fit. My argument isn't that it cannot be done. My argument is that it can be done but its difficult to do so and requires good planning and good writing. In the world of fanfiction both of those tend to be very lacking.

I think our disconnect is that I put more stock into diagetic reasoning because this is fanfiction and a good portion of us really like the existing worlds and thus any significant changes that are made need to have good reasons for existing and good writing to back it up. You can totally do an AU where you do a skin color swap of everyone in Konoha but then the question becomes "Why would you make that change?". The reason shouldn't be an arbitrary "Because I wanted to".

Criticizing the author for not doing skin color swaps is fine but the reason is probably not because they don't like brown people. It's probably because they don't want to stray too far from the original work and they don't want people to drop the story at the summary.


"Naruto's Dad is Killerbee (and/or KB is his uncle but does much of the raising)" would be an oddly fitting Naruto AU :)
There is definitely a couple of stories where Naruto grows up in Kumogakure and ends up being raised by Killer Bee and/or Yugito. The Raikage would be the grumpy grandpa, Darui would be the cool uncle, Samui would be the aunt that acts cold but still spoils him, and Omoi and Karui would be the older siblings he annoys all the time. Like I've said, the story just requires you to actually justify all of that happening and not handwaving it away as "Its a fictional world I can do whatever". The only reason I don't have any to recommend is because the ones I found broke my SoD and were poorly written. Which is why I keep mentioning that the author has to

Sidenote: MinatoxKushina OTP fite me :p
 
You can totally do an AU where you do a skin color swap of everyone in Konoha but then the question becomes "Why would you make that change?". The reason shouldn't be an arbitrary "Because I wanted to".

Why not? Fanfiction is all about taking the toys out of their containers and messing with them. Why write an AU where Naruto is female? Why write an AU where Naruto is on a different team? Why write an AU where Sakura or Sasuke are on a different team? You can come up with plenty off ipso facto justifications for why such ideas have potential, just as I'm sure I could for making some of the characters in Konoha, a different race. ( Would it change how citizens other citizens in the village in receive them? Would it change their level of prestige or how hard it is to receive that prestige? Would it effect how they are treated by mentor? Or how they are treated on missions? And so on.) But at its core, fanfic exists, especially AU fanfic, because the author had a story and they wanted to write it. Even if a good deal of thought goes into it, even if there is some grand plan, at the end of the day that is the reason fanfic is written. So to dismiss that as "arbitrary" is in my opinion a little foolish.
 
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