SV does not have an odd problem with bigotry

[Pidl]

Why not? Fanfiction is all about taking the toys out of their containers and messing with them. Why write an AU where Naruto is female? Why write an AU where Naruto is on a different team? Why write an AU where Sakura or Sasuke are on a different team? You can come up with plenty off ipso facto justifications for why such ideas have potential, just as I'm sure I could for making some of the characters in Konoha, a different race. ( Would it change how citizens other citizens in the village in receive them? Would it change their level of prestige or how hard it is to receive that prestige? Would it effect how they are treated by mentor? Or how they are treated on missions? And so on.) But at its core, fanfic exists, especially AU fanfic, because the author had a story and they wanted to write it. Even if a good deal of thought goes into it, even if there is some grand plan, at the end of the day that is the reason fanfic is written. So to dismiss that as "arbitrary" is in my opinion a little foolish.

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But it would just be a throw-away line somewhere, with no relevance on the plot or characterisation (being black isn't even noteworthy when you could be blue) and at that point you have to ask: why make the change.

And while you can make it relevant to characterisation, you're importing social issues which aren't there and I don't read fanfiction for critique on society.

 

[Bea]

But it would just be a throw-away line somewhere, with no relevance on the plot or characterisation (being black isn't even noteworthy when you could be blue) and at that point you have to ask: why make the change.

And while you can make it relevant to characterisation, you're importing social issues which aren't there and I don't read fanfiction for critique on society.

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Honestly I tried to not overly focus on the specific example here because I don't particularly care about the specific example in this post. I'm not particularly inclined to debate over how racial differences could impact the world of Naruto especially since we're engaging in an AU where those details can shift and twist at the convenience of the author.

What I care about is the idea that "Because I want to" isn't a valid reason for a fanfic author to do something. Because when you go beyond the ipso facto rationalizations and justifications framed to support those choices, especially when you're creating an AU, "because I want to" is going to be a major factor, because fanfiction is all about taking things that you think are interesting ideas and incorporating them into a setting. If at the core you don't have an idea that interests you and that you want to write about, why make a story at all? The fact is that wanting to write the story is what really matters, and at its core that's because you have an idea that you want to write, not an idea that you can write a 10 page thesis to defend.

 

[Q99]

I didn't say you couldn't have a Naruto fanfiction where Naruto is black. I said that doing so would require extra effort on the author's part to justify that change and still retain readers in spite of it. Naruto's lineage actually becomes important later in the show and changing his Dad would change a lot of things which again requires the author to justify those changes and make them consistent with canon or change key elements of canon to fit. My argument isn't that it cannot be done. My argument is that it can be done but its difficult to do so and requires good planning and good writing. In the world of fanfiction both of those tend to be very lacking.

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I think it'd be super-easy honestly. One, it'd make it stand out from other fics. Two, the Uzumakis ending up in Kumogakure or such is a fairly easy change, Naruto was raised as an orphan which makes it easy, and Naruto having a similar personality would make too much sense.

Rather than, "Oh, that 9-tails kid always acting out, won't someone do something?" it'd be "We gotta get that kid from hanging out with Bee so much, he's getting bad habits...".

Different is what makes a fic work.

But it would just be a throw-away line somewhere, with no relevance on the plot or characterisation (being black isn't even noteworthy when you could be blue) and at that point you have to ask: why make the change.

And while you can make it relevant to characterisation, you're importing social issues which aren't there and I don't read fanfiction for critique on society.

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Well, if you just making him black and having no-one react, sure, but making him Kumogakure would be interesting. If he was in Konoha, the fact he'd be visibly foreign would be interesting, but if he was in Kumo, then it's 'him, but hanging around a different set of canon characters,' which is prime fic fodder.

Plenty of people do like their fiction critiquing society (see Black Panther), but that's really only one angle.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I'm not particularly inclined to debate over how racial differences could impact the world of Naruto especially since we're engaging in an AU where those details can shift and twist at the convenience of the author.

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Well, I mean, we don't have to ask that question because we know the answer. The Land of Lightning has a prominent population of black people in it, one which largely runs the place

I've never been all that sympathetic to the idea that anime doesn't create much scope for diversity. Sure, a lot of anime is set in recognisable high school settings and tend to preference Japanese characters. That's not really a shock or anything, and if someone is writing fanfic of K-On! and strictly sticking to the the established cast then fair play, the darkest character you're going to get is sun-tanned Azusa ... except that they went to London that one time so go nuts lol. But anime has done all kinds of shit over the years. There's an episode of Young Black Jack where the plot turns on a young black doctor still grappling with American racism, Michiko to Hatchin is set in South America and is racially diverse, Bleach, a manga literally about extremely Japanese ghost samurai has more than one prominent black character*, Hunter x Hunter had its fair share of quite realistically drawn black people as well, like Canary. There are your Muhammad Avdols and your Ayukawa Miyukis and your Kilik Rungs, and so on. I mean, there was a guy from Senegal in Kuroko no Basuke (Mbaye was kind of an asshole though).

It's hardly all good, obviously. Looking at Cyborg 008's character design change over the years is a little like watching attitudes change, and even today there are examples which can really raise your eyebrows. And given the general trends in art you get some unrealistic depictions, like all the characters with contrasting hair. But making those allowances there are loads of dark skinned characters in anime, andl oads of characters from all over the world, evne in stories set mainly in Japan.

I don't think it's much of an excuse, in any case.

*Yoruichi is maybe kind of stretching it a little, but as far as mukokuseki anime brown girls go she is at least as dark as Tosen.

 

[Chloe Sullivan]

You can not honestly believe that it was a political decision to not have a bevy of black characters in Worm, I'd say its more social factors. And no, me deciding to not read about black Naruto in Kumogakure or not wanting to write that story is not political. For the former the reason is because I believe an OC would be better than arbitrarily making Naruto black and the latter is just laziness

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How is that lazy? To actually make Naruto "black" in anything more than name only requires a fair amount of worldbuilding work. That's kinda the opposite of lazy

Also, most things are political, because politics pervade just about everything. Including a Nazi faction at all in WORM is political, and given that context, the representation of minorities is totally political in worm.

Sidenote: MinatoxKushina OTP fite me

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It would help if we actually knew enough about their characters to do more in depth shipping. or maybe not. Fanon Kushina is usually a pretty hilarious wild child, while canon has her go japanese housewife.

 

[Gh055twr1t3r]

Honestly I tried to not overly focus on the specific example here because I don't particularly care about the specific example in this post. I'm not particularly inclined to debate over how racial differences could impact the world of Naruto especially since we're engaging in an AU where those details can shift and twist at the convenience of the author.

What I care about is the idea that "Because I want to" isn't a valid reason for a fanfic author to do something. Because when you go beyond the ipso facto rationalizations and justifications framed to support those choices, especially when you're creating an AU, "because I want to" is going to be a major factor, because fanfiction is all about taking things that you think are interesting ideas and incorporating them into a setting. If at the core you don't have an idea that interests you and that you want to write about, why make a story at all? The fact is that wanting to write the story is what really matters, and at its core that's because you have an idea that you want to write, not an idea that you can write a 10 page thesis to defend.

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I'd prefer it if the "Because I want to" was followed by the need have things make sense and not break SoD. Then again SoD is subjective so maybe 7 years of fanfiction.net has jaded me. I still require some form of internal consistency that doesn't leave me questioning literally everything about a fic the entire night.

Why not? Fanfiction is all about taking the toys out of their containers and messing with them. Why write an AU where Naruto is female? Why write an AU where Naruto is on a different team? Why write an AU where Sakura or Sasuke are on a different team? You can come up with plenty off ipso facto justifications for why such ideas have potential, just as I'm sure I could for making some of the characters in Konoha, a different race. ( Would it change how citizens other citizens in the village in receive them? Would it change their level of prestige or how hard it is to receive that prestige? Would it effect how they are treated by mentor? Or how they are treated on missions? And so on.) But at its core, fanfic exists, especially AU fanfic, because the author had a story and they wanted to write it. Even if a good deal of thought goes into it, even if there is some grand plan, at the end of the day that is the reason fanfic is written. So to dismiss that as "arbitrary" is in my opinion a little foolish.

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But race doesn't matter in Naruto, your clan/family matters. Honestly if I want a story set in Naruto that incorporated something analogous to racism it'd be the discrimination that some ninja clans or maybe even clanless ninja face. You don't even need to change anyone's race or skin color to explore concepts like discrimination or being marginalized.

How is that lazy? To actually make Naruto "black" in anything more than name only requires a fair amount of worldbuilding work. That's kinda the opposite of lazy

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No, I mean that I haven't written that because I'm too lazy to do so. Sorry about the awkward phrasing.

 

[Bea]

But race doesn't matter in Naruto, your clan/family matters. Honestly if I want a story set in Naruto that incorporated something analogous to racism it'd be the discrimination that some ninja clans or maybe even clanless ninja face. You don't even need to change anyone's race or skin color to explore concepts like discrimination or being marginalized.

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You kinda responded to the middle out of my post and not the beginning and end that frame it, so let me try again, borrowing from my previous post and refining the language.

Why can't you write something just because you want to? Fanfiction is all about taking the toys out of their containers and messing with them. That's what it is for, and the desire for something to be different is at one of the cores of that. Why does that desire to be different need to be something deep and intellectual, and not just "Hey, wouldn't that be neat"? Why write an AU where Naruto is female? Why write an AU where Naruto is on a different team? Why write an AU where Sakura or Sasuke are on a different team? You can come up with plenty off ipso facto justifications for why such ideas have potential, but I would say that those justifications don't matter because at the core, you need to WANT TO write this because you think it's a cool concept, or a neat idea, or just because it's a want you have that the story doesn't provide. At its core, fanfic exists, especially AU fanfic, because the author had a story and they had the desire to write it. Even if a good deal of thought goes into it, even if there is some grand plan, at the end of the day that is the reason fanfic is written. So to dismiss "Because I wanted to" as merely "arbitrary" is in my opinion a little foolish.

 

[Gh055twr1t3r]

You kinda responded to the middle out of my post and not the beginning and end that frame it, so let me try again, borrowing from my previous post and refining the language.

Why can't you write something just because you want to? Fanfiction is all about taking the toys out of their containers and messing with them. That's what it is for, and the desire for something to be different is at one of the cores of that. Why does that desire to be different need to be something deep and intellectual, and not just "Hey, wouldn't that be neat"? Why write an AU where Naruto is female? Why write an AU where Naruto is on a different team? Why write an AU where Sakura or Sasuke are on a different team? You can come up with plenty off ipso facto justifications for why such ideas have potential, but I would say that those justifications don't matter because at the core, you need to WANT TO write this because you think it's a cool concept, or a neat idea, or just because it's a want you have that the story doesn't provide. At its core, fanfic exists, especially AU fanfic, because the author had a story and they had the desire to write it. Even if a good deal of thought goes into it, even if there is some grand plan, at the end of the day that is the reason fanfic is written. So to dismiss "Because I wanted to" as merely "arbitrary" is in my opinion a little foolish.

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Okay I'm going to admit fault here. I was being careless and glib when I made that statement and it was unfair of me to say that writing something solely "Because I wanted to" is arbitrary. A better way to put it would be that if you're going to do something then you should put in the necessary effort to make it work and not half-ass it.

 

[Ritterin Sophia]

See that would be good general advice for writing, so one has to wonder why you're not offering that insight in a thread for new authors looking for advice and instead chose to make it in a discussion specifically about minority representation in fiction.

 

[Selwyn]

See that would be good general advice for writing, so one has to wonder why you're not offering that insight in a thread for new authors looking for advice and instead chose to make it in a discussion specifically about minority representation in fiction.

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...because they're talking about the latter topic specifically? It's not rocket science.

 

[Gh055twr1t3r]

See that would be good general advice for writing, so one has to wonder why you're not offering that insight in a thread for new authors looking for advice and instead chose to make it in a discussion specifically about minority representation in fiction.

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I've been more or less saying that though.

My argument isn't that it cannot be done. My argument is that it can be done but its difficult to do so and requires good planning and good writing

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I said that doing so would require extra effort on the author's part to justify that change and still retain readers in spite of it

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any significant changes that are made need to have good reasons for existing and good writing to back it up.

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Its just that the last time I said it had nothing else hanging off of it.

 

[Strypgia]

because people decide what the story is going to be before they try to talk and nothing can budge their favored delusion. it's like talking to religious people

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this is special Calling all religious people delusional in a thread on bigotry is a special kind of WTF. Don't. And since you're so keen on internet points, have 25 and a three day threadban.

 

[Selwyn]

I've been more or less saying that though.





Its just that the last time I said it had nothing else hanging off of it.

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This is one of the annoying ways where a topic about a minority suddenly "should" be shafted into a general topic even though the topic-specific "problem" is hinged on the existence of a minority and the people demanding justification for said existence.

 

[LSkullD]

... I mean, if you want to make Naruto a minority, why couldn't you just write a story where he's non-neuronormative?

It's not like it's that much of a leap, and it's fanfiction, we only need to (barely) follow canon to do what we want anyway.

Also, Naruto being in Lightning and working with B would be fucking amazing, but anyway...

 

[TenMoreMiles]

... I mean, if you want to make Naruto a minority, why couldn't you just write a story where he's non-neuronormative?

It's not like it's that much of a leap, and it's fanfiction, we only need to (barely) follow canon to do what we want anyway.

Also, Naruto being in Lightning and working with B would be fucking amazing, but anyway...

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You could probably make a good case for Naruto having ADHD. Spending days training for Rasengan sounds a lot like hyperfocus to me.

 

[1KBestK]

You could probably make a good case for Naruto having ADHD. Spending days training for Rasengan sounds a lot like hyperfocus to me.

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That is not how ADHD works.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

That is not how ADHD works.

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It can be. Hyperfocus on something monotonous but satisfying is one of the less obvious symptoms of ADHD. I think I've talked either here or on SB on how Naruto probably suffers from some form of ADD, regardless of whether it's entirely intentional on Kishimoto's part.

 

[LSkullD]

It can be. Hyperfocus on something monotonous but satisfying is one of the less obvious symptoms of ADHD. I think I've talked either here or on SB on how Naruto probably suffers from some form of ADD, regardless of whether it's entirely intentional on Kishimoto's part.

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Considering his mood swings, maybe ADHD.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

Considering his mood swings, maybe ADHD.

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Mood swings? I'd go with ADHD for a couple reasons, kinesthetic learning and engagement issues chiefly, but I wouldn't say Naruto suffers from any mood swings.

 

[TenMoreMiles]

That is not how ADHD works.

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It does. Hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD; not everyone with ADHD experiences it but a lot of us do. Focusing only on things that interest you + not focusing on anything else is basically ADHD in a nutshell.

Mood swings? I'd go with ADHD for a couple reasons, kinesthetic learning and engagement issues chiefly, but I wouldn't say Naruto suffers from any mood swings.

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Emotional dysregulation might fit? Not mood *swings* necessarily, but feeling an emotion too strongly to the detriment of yourself. Him declaring a feud on Neji during the chuunin exams comes to mind.

 

[LSkullD]

Emotional dysregulation might fit? Not mood *swings* necessarily, but feeling an emotion too strongly to the detriment of yourself. Him declaring a feud on Neji during the chuunin exams comes to mind.

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There's also his Kurama transformations and the time he collapsed in a hospital after his mentor died.

Oh, and all of his fights with Sasuke.

Then there's that time he stabbed himself in the hand because he wanted to feel like a badass.

... Yeah, dude kinda has some problems with regulating his emotions.

 

[1KBestK]

It does. Hyperfocus is a symptom of ADHD; not everyone with ADHD experiences it but a lot of us do. Focusing only on things that interest you + not focusing on anything else is basically ADHD in a nutshell.

Emotional dysregulation might fit? Not mood *swings* necessarily, but feeling an emotion too strongly to the detriment of yourself. Him declaring a feud on Neji during the chuunin exams comes to mind.

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That 'hyperfocus' comes from a person with ADHD's lowered control over their emotions, and, subsequently, their ability to self motivate. This makes environmental motivators proportionally much more effective. This is why if they are doing something they like, whatever feedback they get from it has much more of a hold on them. I've not seen Naruto, but unless he likes training, it's not likely something he would do, especially that would be basing his actions on planning and problem solving, and for stimulus that is delayed, a trifecta of things that ADHD people, like myself, would struggle with. If Naruto would enjoy practicing the Rasenwhatsit nonstop, then it's believable.

Mood swings? I'd go with ADHD for a couple reasons, kinesthetic learning and engagement issues chiefly, but I wouldn't say Naruto suffers from any mood swings.

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Also, lowered control over the emotions is a symptom of ADHD, not mood swings. They can look similar, but they are not the same. I would say that that would be a better indicator of something like ADHD than practicing a jutsu.

 

[Ser_Serendipity]

That 'hyperfocus' comes from a person with ADHD's lowered control over their emotions, and, subsequently, their ability to self motivate. This makes environmental motivators proportionally much more effective. This is why if they are doing something they like, whatever feedback they get from it has much more of a hold on them. I've not seen Naruto, but unless he likes training, it's not likely something he would do, especially that would be basing his actions on planning and problem solving, and for stimulus that is delayed, a trifecta of things that ADHD people, like myself, would struggle with. If Naruto would enjoy practicing the Rasenwhatsit nonstop, then it's believable.

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You're agreeing with me, though it doesn't seem like you realize it, most likely because you haven't actually read/seen Naruto. And don't bother with the "like myself" stuff, please. I didn't pull out my own ADHD to make my point.

Then there's that time he stabbed himself in the hand because he wanted to feel like a badass.

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Also this is pretty misrepresentive: Naruto stabbed himself both to show his resolve (a shinobi culture thing, it seems) and because he thought it was the best way of getting out the poison in his hand.

 

[1KBestK]

You're agreeing with me, though it doesn't seem like you realize it, most likely because you haven't actually read/seen Naruto. And don't bother with the "like myself" stuff, please. I didn't pull out my own ADHD to make my point.

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Sorry, didn't actually mean to reply to you on that post. Fixed, I think.

The 'like myself' comment was directed to what I assumed was @TenMoreMiles not realizing that I was speaking from personal experience.

 

[TenMoreMiles]

That 'hyperfocus' comes from a person with ADHD's lowered control over their emotions, and, subsequently, their ability to self motivate. This makes environmental motivators proportionally much more effective. This is why if they are doing something they like, whatever feedback they get from it has much more of a hold on them. I've not seen Naruto, but unless he likes training, it's not likely something he would do, especially that would be basing his actions on planning and problem solving, and for stimulus that is delayed, a trifecta of things that ADHD people, like myself, would struggle with. If Naruto would enjoy practicing the Rasenwhatsit nonstop, then it's believable.


Also, lowered control over the emotions is a symptom of ADHD, not mood swings. They can look similar, but they are not the same. I would say that that would be a better indicator of something like ADHD than practicing a jutsu.

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I mean none of what you're saying actually contradicts with Naruto's characterization as we see in the manga and anime, sooooo maybe you shouldn't make judgments on whether or not Naruto has ADHD if you haven't read the manga? His hyperfocus was pretty damn obvious to me, so I assumed you've watched/read the series and just wasn't familiar with ADHD symptoms.

Naruto has massive holes in his knowledge base due to his lack of interest in book learning along with abysmal chakra control, both of which don't get fixed until someone explains it to him in a way that has immediate practical value and/or relates to a skill/technique that he wants to learn, at which point he practices whatever it is he needs to do (making shadow clones/walking up trees/spinning chakra inside a ball/cutting leaves with chakra) for hours or days to the exclusion of anything else until he masters it. Idk what that counts as if not hyperfocus.