On the methods of finding and destroying enemy armour.

Current trends in the development of tanks point towards a paradigm shift in the method that we will conduct war from this point onwards. Tanks are rapidly advancing past the initial requirements layer down for them (that of mobile bunkers able to weather machine-gun fire and allow for the advance of soldiers behind them) and many different theories are appearing on how to utilise these new weapons. This document is an attempt at creating what could amount to being the basis of anti-tank warfare and will as such make the assumption that tanks will continue to be used along a two or three level doctrine with specialist units developing as the need is required.

On the defence of fixed positions, there is a lot of current experience that can be drawn from recent conflicts. Primarily that a ditch that is 2 thirds the tank's length in width and at-least as deep is enough to halt a tank for some time, but that tanks also find it difficult to operate in confined areas such as forests. From this we can posit two things:
A) that tanks require support to be effective, or else in confined areas where mobility is simpler for infantry tanks can be encircled and captured/destroyed by infantry (recommendation is to issue an explosive either strong enough to damage a tank's tracks or gun mount or small enough to fit through a hatch/gun barrel and render damage to the interior of the vehicle)
B) that trenches will be surmountable is of no debate, fascines have been used since early siege warfare to facilitate the crossing of obstacles (both deep and tall), to circumnavigate this problem (for a short while) an unexplored shell should be placed with a percussive instrument near the fuze, if the percussive trigger is activated due to a simple weight mechanism the shell should explode and deliver either a killing force to the underneath of the tank or again, mission kill behind defined as destroying the tracks.
This author does not advise these reactive shells being made weight sensitive to anything less than 3 tons so as to not be activated by infantry who might be retreating at speed with their lighter frontline equipment.

For mobile defence the idea of towing a light artillery (or converted tank) gun on a chassis similar to that of the old field artillery pieces with a low profile and equipped with high velocity armour piercing shells that have an explosive filler (such as a miniaturised bunker buster sheep employed when bombarding emplaned fortifications) should be enough. The crews should be taught basic to advanced levels of camouflage and should either be deployed in forward emplacements to blunt an offensive (the possibility of combining the anti-tank detachment with the machine gun detachment should provide an impressive defensive force) or as a mobile reserve in the rear lines and employing long range sniping interference against enemy frontline artillery or tanks.

For a more mobile option the idea of converting armoured cars by removing the turrets, lowering the ground clearance and having the gun run the length of the vehicle (that is either open topped or open ended to facilitate crew ergonomics and ammo replenishment) or for a tank to undergo the same conversion (with no open top or open end) and a gun that clears the front of the vehicle with relatively heavy armour at the front for position/tank destruction in forward moving assaults. Furthermore this move would allow the deployment of tank mounted artillery that would allow a heavy unit to assault fortified units without needing to wait for siege artillery or destroy heavy tanks. Heavy artillery on a well protected tank should however be the remit of storm pioneer units that will be tasked with destroying hard-points and the development of a smoke shell could prove beneficial.

Finally, on the auto-gun as an anti tank weapon. the development of auto weapons should be deemed to be a short term development at this time, the current design is unable to carry anything but the smallest of anti-tank shells and should not be considered for much but close defence for tanks and other vehicles, they cannot be trusted to penetrate the fronts of assault vehicles (or even the sides of certain designs) reliably and when able to penetrate the enemy they will not have ability to do the damage a shell fired from a larger calibre gun will without sacrificing reliability in the field.

On the subject of circumnavigating an enemy's defence, there is one thing that is required above all, intelligence and knowledge of the enemy. As mentioned above this is a developing method and it is to be expected that different nations will come up with different methods. As such there are two possible means of dealing with this, firstly, peace time information gathering should attempt to have a basic understanding of the nations evolution of theories (with wartime information gathering needing to have a priority on enemy doctrine shifts) and that this information should be disseminated amongst both tank units and planning staffs.
For during combat a special detachment should be formed that are taught in reconnaissance, ambush and skirmish tactics and light infantry methods, this unit should actively search ahead of units wherever possible and attempt to discover enemy positions before radioing back the information. The unit should also be ready to deal with the enemies scouts, as such the auto guns that where are unable to serve as anti tank weapons would do well here, a armoured car or mobile light tank able to deal significant damage to other light vehicles and infantry seems to be highly suited to this kind of work.

In conclusion, though the pace in the change of doctrines is due to increase thanks to technological developments and the will to implement them means that specialist methods and units will be required to employ all the advancements that are occurring, and that the future of mechanised combined arms warfare requires an ability to quickly adopt changes of both equipment and doctrinal natures or leave the army lagging behind the enemy.

Edit no.2: still 1000+ words but this time more coherent and follows the title more.
 
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Fascines is the correct word choice for what you want I think.

As for the post itself, I find your weight limit to be way too high, the SkW is going to be the only tank that would actually trip it. Remember, only half the weight is on each track, and only a portion goes into the trigger mechanism.

You also seem to be advocating for German-style tank destroyers/assault guns, which I'm not really a fan of. While they have decent armor and thus are likely to get the first hit on an enemy tank, tank destroyers are unlikely to find themselves in a one on one fight. Due to the fact that the attacking side can throw a lot of armor against a single spot, the TD will be outnumbered significantly, and a German style TD will be overwhelmed due to its inability to retreat.

I vastly prefer the American doctrine of a fast vehicle with a good gun, but little in the way of armor. You take a shot or two, then fall back slightly, and repeat the process. Yes, this does involve giving ground to the attack, but it drastically slows it, and the line is in far less danger of breaking. The high speed also allows TDs to come to the point under attack faster, evening out the numerical disadvantage. Wheeled gun carriers like the 234/4 (75mm/46) are also quite good in this role.

The role of your "storm pioneers" meanwhile would fall to the armor brigade for my setup, or rather the heavy tank platoon (SkW-1 or a Doomturtle like replacement) in conjunction with a normal pioneer company.
 
I'm going to add it later. I'm also open to other suggestions, and would add a SPAAG if we had any. Which we don't because aircraft are kinda shit right now.

Could you expand the 'what is a tank' section with things like:
- All tanks should carry sufficient ammunition for prolonged combat, at least a large percentage of which needs to be immediately accessible. All tanks should carry enough fuel for independent movement.
- Armor in most tanks should be concentrated at least somewhat towards the front and utilize sloping for added effect on at least the front and the turret, bullet traps (if we know those are a thing yet) should be avoided.
- Should have hatches for the crew to effect a rapid evacuation in case of fire or similar.
- Reliability and ease of maintenance in the tracks, suspension, and gun is encouraged.

You know, standard stuff we struggle not to add to each and every RFQ we publish.

It'd also help if we pushed for army-wide standards for vehicle speed and range, visibility, gun penetration and range, and armor. So that instead of a litany of numbers and qualifiers, we can simply insert standardized buzzwords into our RFQs. 'A light scout tank' instead of 'speed of 30km/h with a range of 150km, armor sufficient against autocannons and indirect artillery hits, good visibility is a must, maximum weight of 20 tons'.

I'm also mildly worried that we're not asking @7734 any questions, but honestly I can't actually think of any questions to ask myself right now.
 
@Winged_One²
I agree on changing the weight (how does 10 tons sound ?) but I was building my paper around detached companies or army level doctrine, yours seems to be kampfgreuppen material, not regimental. Also the American method is unappealing to me at this time due to how difficult it would be to get a M18 expy, also it doesn't fit with the current war doctrine of trenches, when we go to rapid warfare (such a thing being difficult in forested Germany) then a rapid tank destroyer would be necessary, at the moment a slow and heavy approach is preferable.
 
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'A light scout tank' instead of 'speed of 30km/h with a range of 150km, armor sufficient against autocannons and indirect artillery hits, good visibility is a must, maximum weight of 20 tons'.
Given that we're in a period of extremely fast technological development, I'm opposed to this - in ten years, we'll have tanks doing significantly over 30 while carrying 90-110 guns and good armor. What should be codified are perhaps penetration testing standards for the armor branch. I'm going to advocate for the 50% standard that Aberdeen used because that's the one it's easiest to find reference data for.
Could you expand the 'what is a tank' section with things like:
- All tanks should carry sufficient ammunition for prolonged combat, at least a large percentage of which needs to be immediately accessible. All tanks should carry enough fuel for independent movement.
- Armor in most tanks should be concentrated at least somewhat towards the front and utilize sloping for added effect on at least the front and the turret, bullet traps (if we know those are a thing yet) should be avoided.
- Should have hatches for the crew to effect a rapid evacuation in case of fire or similar.
- Reliability and ease of maintenance in the tracks, suspension, and gun is encouraged.
Going to edit those in for sure.
 
Given that we're in a period of extremely fast technological development, I'm opposed to this - in ten years, we'll have tanks doing significantly over 30 while carrying 90-110 guns and good armor. What should be codified are perhaps penetration testing standards for the armor branch. I'm going to advocate for the 50% standard that Aberdeen used because that's the one it's easiest to find reference data for.

Admittedly, the example I gave was a bit simplistic and the numbers chosen more or less at random. What would be more likely to happen is that we set the scale to lead technological development, so that in ten years or so we order a 'light tank with heavy armor and armament' or an 'extremely fast superheavy tank'. Meaning, a light tank (in weight, at least), that, by the standards of today, would have armor and a cannon suitable for a heavy tank, or a tank that's both heavier and faster than anything we can even conceive as practical right now. Recalibrate the scale every few decades or so.
 
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how does 10 tons sound
I would prefer an activation weight in the low hundreds of kilograms, that's what historical AT mines had.
lso it doesn't fit with the current war doctrine of trenches, when we go to rapid warfare (such a thing being difficult in forested Germany) then a rapid tank destroyer would be necessary, at the moment a slow and heavy approach is preferable.
And I'm going to say that the next war won't be trench war, but maneuver war. Our infantry is at least partially motorized, and we got large armored forces now. I think it is extremely unlikely that the conditions of trench warfare will arise again, and thus think it is unwise to prepare as if that will be the case.
Admittedly, the example I gave was a bit simplistic and the numbers chosen more or less at random. What would be more likely to happen is that we set the scale to lead technological development, so that in ten years or so we order a 'light tank with heavy armor and armament' or an 'extremely fast superheavy tank'. Meaning, a light tank (in weight, at least), that, by the standards of today, would have armor and a cannon suitable for a heavy tank, or a tank that's both heavier and faster than anything we can even conceive as practical right now. Recalibrate the scale every few decades or so.
I don't see a good way for us to be able to predict technological advancements that far in advance, let alone get everyone here to agree on a decade-plus roadmap. For the same reason I didn't include an ammunition count in the edit, because "prolonged combat" is incredibly vague and I would prefer to set a minimum for every time. Especially if we get to an assault gun or the like, which could be shooting from the ground (read: from a supply vehicle) and carry very little itself.
 
I would prefer an activation weight in the low hundreds of kilograms, that's what historical AT mines had.

And I'm going to say that the next war won't be trench war, but maneuver war. Our infantry is at least partially motorized, and we got large armored forces now. I think it is extremely unlikely that the conditions of trench warfare will arise again, and thus think it is unwise to prepare as if that will be the case.
I can't agree with both these things, the weight limit is to exact and I don't want infantry or friendlies expecting a safe passage to trigger it. And trench warfare is likely, we've yet to reach a technological/doctrinal point where the other types of warfare is possible, the battlefield (inner Germany by the sounds of it) is a very dense area where prepared défenses are very effective and not at all conductive to mobile warfare.
3 tons ?
 
So, kind of thinking as a sort of stream of consciousness thing here, so apologies in advance if I'm not very concise. I do think I may have focused a bit too much on vehicle specifications here, but I'm thinking of this as trying to get people thinking of Blitzkrieg tactics, or at least increasing the level of overall military mobility.

Title of the Whitepaper: On the Topic of Vehicle Categorization and Organization in Division-level Armored Warfare (Or something to this effect)

I can already tell this is going to have so many issues, starting with the fact you're tied to a regimental system.

This author does not advise these reactive shells being made weight sensitive to anything less than 10 tons so as to not be activated by infantry who might be retreating at speed with their lighter frontline equipment.

It's called a landmine for fucks sakes

Finally, on the auto-gun as an anti tank weapon. the development of auto weapons should be deemed to be a short term development at this time, the current design is unable to carry anything but the smallest of shells of anti-tank shells and should not be considered for much but close defence for tanks and other vehicles, they cannot be trusted to penetrate the fronts of assault vehicles (or the sides of certain designs) reliably and when able to penetrate the enemy they will not have ability to do the damage a shell fired from a larger caliber gun will without sacrificing reliability in the field.

This is a bit of a misnomer; the issue is that a turn-sleeve locking mechanism like the one on your current autocannon is not the sort of thing that scales up well without massive weight costs. There's a tilt-block airplane machine gun that's been beaten out, but that's not exactly feeling up to getting scaled up since the production team really doesn't have time to open another factory. There's a proper AP round in the works for the 2cm, but it's not moving very fast.

For during combat a special detachment should be formed that are taught in reconnaissance, ambush and skirmish tactics and light infantry methods, this unit should actively search ahead of units wherever possible and attempt to discover enemy positions before radioing back the information. The unit should also be ready to deal with the enemies scouts, as such the auto guns that where are unable to serve as anti tank weapons would do well here, a armoured car or mobile light tank able to deal significant damage to other light vehicles and infantry seems to be highly suited to this kind of work.

So you're looking against armored recon for scouting out an enemy's fixed positions? Ok, that'll work... or the enemy will have competent front line units with AT weapons, and then it won't.

It'd also help if we pushed for army-wide standards for vehicle speed and range, visibility, gun penetration and range, and armor. So that instead of a litany of numbers and qualifiers, we can simply insert standardized buzzwords into our RFQs. 'A light scout tank' instead of 'speed of 30km/h with a range of 150km, armor sufficient against autocannons and indirect artillery hits, good visibility is a must, maximum weight of 20 tons'.

When things change, these statements become Problems.
 
I'll be honest, my paper isn't the best it could be, I specifically started around a core idea and went from there. This created the barely tied together work that I wrote.
On the subject of autocanons, 2cm is good enough for light duty, but the heavy tanks and more importantly the front of a medium tank will be difficult to pen concistently, unless we get the PAK shells.
Also, on the subject of land mines I wasn't a hundred percent sure if our guy would know the name of such things.
 
Given that we're in a period of extremely fast technological development, I'm opposed to this - in ten years, we'll have tanks doing significantly over 30 while carrying 90-110 guns and good armor. What should be codified are perhaps penetration testing standards for the armor branch. I'm going to advocate for the 50% standard that Aberdeen used because that's the one it's easiest to find reference data for.
Against WW2 level of armour, a long 75mm gun is more practical. 100mm turrets will be only necessity for MBT-s.
I would reserve high caliber guns for assault guns and tank destroyers.
Personally I would want something like the Firefly, but with low profile.
 
Maybe something like the Comet's turret on a T-44 hull, so we don't have a front plate that's nearly completely vertical. That would allow for a reasonable amount of armor protection, while also having a reasonably low profile.
Yep, something like that. It should be a reasonably agile tank with good firepower and sufficient armor against light and lower end medium tanks from long range. Less of proto-MBT, like the Panther, and more of cruiser with decent armor. I would be willing to trade extra speed and armor for simple and reliable transmission.
 
Yep, something like that. It should be a reasonably agile tank with good firepower and sufficient armor against light and lower end medium tanks from long range. Less of proto-MBT, like the Panther, and more of cruiser with decent armor. I would be willing to trade extra speed and armor for simple and reliable transmission.
An we need to make sure standardisation is a thing, it was (for some unthathomable reason) not a thing for British tanks so different factories used different suspensions and the like.
 
An we need to make sure standardisation is a thing, it was (for some unthathomable reason) not a thing for British tanks so different factories used different suspensions and the like.
Everyone but the Americans had a high degree of customization until after the war. Germany because the model to be build changed every week, Italy because Pasta and Russia because they had extreme horizontal integration of factories - ore and coal go in, tanks go out. That, at least, was the correct call for the situation they were in.
 
Doesn't change the fact that it's cheaper and more effective from a suply point of view to be standardised.
Honestly I'd push for a standard chassis or suspension if it wasn't so early and manufacturing wasn't outsourced due to a war economy.
 
Contest 7: Entrants 2
Once the waiting period finally finished, you were fuming at the new High Command. Sure, you'd pushed for a less heavy armor unit based on your (and more importantly Folger's) experiences in Ostafrika, but the new table of organization was such a hard shift from what you'd been used to as to mean entirely new regiments would need to be raised!

Then there was the "medium tank" concept. Oh Lord, the Medium Tank Concept. Given the opinion of the W-5 (this thing is junk literally everything you're testing looks better quoth Oberstgeneral Jacob Hans) your task was now to design a flat-out replacement tank for the W-5 that was suitable as the Medium Tank Concept, and could take on the W-5s low role in the long/short blend of the older Heavy Armored Regiment (to contrast to the new model Lightly Armored Regiment)

Anne-Marie certainly didn't find you drunk as a skunk in the lounge after you got that telegram, no sir.

On to good news, though.

Skoda Panzerwerke (they apparently shuffled things around to maximize throughput so they now delivered a whopping fifty SkW-1s a year plus this if it sold) had taken the LSkW-23 (leichtes Skodawerke modell 2 Ausführung 3 in the company paperwork) and re-engined it into the LSkW-24 with the new Jumo 200 engine he was putting out. The new design could hit 28 kilometers per hour on the test track, but due to the engine configuration tended to cut out if trying to traverse a hill perpendicular to the direction of slope.

Ghermain Brothers Associates had likewise taken in the new engine, and had gone down to a six speed gearbox for it thereby shaving about a ton off the GBA-16. As a happy result, the tank only lost about two kilometers of top speed, and had far fewer suspension issues when dealing with broken terrain. Interestingly, since it didn't have the engine on it's side like the LSkW-24, it didn't have any issues with hills, but did have the tendency to complain more if it had too light a fuel mix.

Thryssen did not bother to change their design.

Armid's Coaches had also used the new Jumo 200, and their design was flat-out weird. Using a casemented 7,5cm over the top of the tank with a surprisingly wide field of fire, they supported this with of all things two 2cm autocannons in a cupola turret for the commander. The result was a very well-armored vehicle, which could make roughly thirty kilometers per hour and came in at twenty tons.

MANN CO. came in with an unusual proposition, sacrificing the 7,5cm gun in exchange for a custom turret mount with the 5,5cm field gun and a coaxial Mg.64. With an absolutely featureless front end at a 50 degree slope and likewise nearly equally sloped sides, they managed to get a whopping forty kilometers per hour out of the chassis with an Anzani nine-cylander W-block engine while keeping the whole array down to eighteen tons on the money.

Right, time to book a few weeks at Ulm to get this testing done. Oh boy.




Votes

[] PLAN NAME

Y'all know the drill. Testing plan is a go.
 
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[X]Plan Rigorous Testing
-[X]Test all tank position with soldiers of 180cm size, going down by 5cm until it is no longer excessively cramped
-[X]Test top speed on a dirtroad
-[X]Firing test at 100, 200, 500, unknown range (time to hit target, three attempts each)
--[X]How much of the outside world can the commander and the gunner see under armor?
-[X]Time to repair/swap any powertrain part
-[X]How hard is it to change gears/how easy is it to fuck up the transmission by shifting incorrectly
-[X]Ability to cross the standard infantry trenches
-[X]Maximum sideways and straight-on slope the vehicle can climb
-[X]Measure the time it takes to evacuate the tank for all crewmembers
-[X]Check ammo count and location
-[X]Test armor against anti-tank rifle, 2cm, 37mm, 5.5cm, going inwards from 300m

Also @7734 had some really bad German this update
 
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[X]Plan Rigorous Testing

This seems like it will wind up making sure that the tanks don't wind up being lemons. I don't like the MANN Co. design - it seems too likely to have sacrificed firepower and armor for blistering speed, which is sort of neat in a light tank but ultimately useless for something that needs to also serve as a Medium Tank. Ultimately, I kind of like the Aramid's Coaches entry, even if it is a weird design, both for the fact that it might well actually have met our specifications, and also because it does have some historical basis in the M3 Lee tank.
 
[X]Plan Focused Rigorous Testing
-[X]Test crew comfort with each position, beginning from 180cm and going down by 5cm until that position isn't considered excessively cramped.
-[X]Test top speed on a dirt road.
-[X]Firing test at 100m, 200m, 500m, unknown range evaluating time to hit a target and how many rounds that takes. Test twice, one stationary and one in motion.
-[X]Measure time to replace any given component of the drivetrain.
-[X]Ability to cross the standard infantry trenches
-[X]Maximum sideways and straight-on slope they can climb
-[X]Test armor against anti-tank rifle, 2cm, 37mm, 5.5cm, going inwards from 300m, targetting front, side, and 30 degrees off-front.

Somewhat reconfigured to hopefully produce more useful information compared to the size of testing.
I don't like the MANN Co. design - it seems too likely to have sacrificed firepower and armor for blistering speed, which is sort of neat in a light tank but ultimately useless for something that needs to also serve as a Medium Tank. Ultimately, I kind of like the Aramid's Coaches entry, even if it is a weird design, both for the fact that it might well actually have met our specifications, and also because it does have some historical basis in the M3 Lee tank.
I'll have to disagree with you on the MANN tank, as it almost certainly has plenty of armor with how massively sloped that front and sides are, which should substantially increase their effective protection. I'm not happy about their reduction to a 5.5, but that's a fairly minor loss in my mind. For Armid, I concur that it's certainly creative, but it really remains to be seen if it's actually good (and it's definitely not an M3 Lee, given it sounds like the casemate gun is centerline not offset to one side, and the 2x20mm autocannon turret is an interesting solution for defense.
 
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