Strategic Arms Quest 3/2: Armor Edition

[7734]

Besides, as of right now the only things we would really be able to do "breakthrough" antics with would be lotsa Poor Bloody Infantry with a few tanks sprinkled in for flavor. What WWII showed us was that tanks were of more use killing the other guy's tanks, which was the direction that most tank warfare ended up going in, but as of right now our most probable threat is enemy infantry, because there aren't enough tanks in circulation to be a major factor yet. In that sense, we'd most likely be working with infantry or leading the charge anyways.

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Current breakthrough doctrine is to suppress the everloving shit out of known MG nests, start dropping a barrage on their heads, and walk the barrage forward while you try to squat in the enemy trench lines long enough to reload and steal anything not nailed down before advancing or retreating. According to heresay, the Balkhs have been fortifying in deapth up to five or six hundred yards back from the front so if everything goes absolutely tits-up they can use volley fire to create beaten zones while the artillery gets involved.

That's what the rumor mill says, though. The hospital you're in doesn't get a lot of turnover, though.

My plan also includes Mr. Benz, but also includes Mr. Fenrus, who I think we will find possesses more relevant expertise for our purposes than Mr. Eberhart. We are supposed to be designing a breakthrough vehicle, so it seems prudent to have assistance experienced in breakthrough operations, rather than infantry tactics. Including Mr. Eberhart seems as though it would naturally lead to the potentially dangerous supposition that the purpose of this vehicle is to support the infantry, when it is clear that the infantry will not be (and cannot practically be) the source of the breakthroughs our vehicle is required to produce.

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What information you've gotten from your (very few) friends from the Academy that are in the cavalry is alternatively cheering or disheartening. Not many of the units involved on either side can keep a strong supply line going in the plains regions, so most units are dispersed around water sources and trying desperately to find where the enemy's supply routes are to raid them. Command has a rough plan to use this area to make an end-run flank on the enemy, but so far the results aren't prromising since they can't breach each other's actually defended strong points regularly.

I'd actually say at this point, that its neither killing infantry nor tanks which should be the primary goal of our tanks, but rather getting into the enemy rear, destroying artillery and logistical infrastructure, forcing the enemy to react to them (potentially to their disadvantage elsewhere), and generally causing chaos; these are all things which are traditionally the purview of the cavalry. I see killing enemy line troops is important only in as much as it allows our tanks to more easily get to grips with these targets.

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The current armored cars (Raeder 9, has a HMG on it) can't really reliably get across No Man's Land, but in mobile fronts less restricted geographically they tend to do well until they run into a force with rifle grenades or a good heavy machine gun section, wherin the spalling eventually kills the engine and therfore the car.

 

[7734]

So we really can't afford more vehicles. We could afford a few, but if we want any more wanderer-tanks we wouldn't be able to get any others and even three more vehicles are getting close to our maximum.

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To be totally fair, these are massively expensive vehicles. Two hundred thalers, for reference, is roughly the cost to buy and outfit a good farm, and your personal salary is twelve thaler ninety kreutzer a year, plus combat pay and benefits. A conscript might get seven thalers a year, eight if he's skilled trades and gets combat pay. Its no joke to say these tanks are a massive investment, and that they're quite literally more valuable than the operators. Hell, the Werser recovery teams who have to scrape the last crew out get paid more than the actual crews for that exact reason.

Adhoc vote count started by 7734 on May 27, 2018 at 10:39 AM, finished with 22 posts and 9 votes.

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  3 people have voted

  [X]Plan Scientifically Rigorous Abuse
  -[X]Endurance testing - crew the vehicle and start the engine at a normal operating speed and set it to drive forward over rough terrain, prepared with explosives to create craters and some trenches. Every minute or so, the tank is to do a hard turn of variable size to judge ability to rotate to confront targets. When a breakdown occurs, Record time after initial startup that it happened, as well as what was happening at the time (eg turning, driving straight, changing speeds) and how long it took to fix. This test go continue until 24 hours or a breakdown occurs that cannot be repaired without specialized tools or several hours of time. If the tanks breaks such that it cannot be repaired from within the vehicle, the crew may exit it to repair the failure, but if it takes longer than 20 minutes to complete, the test ends.
  -[X]Armor testing - After fixing any damage to the engine from the endurance testing, set up a number of wooden panels within the tank, a few centimeters from the hull and in likely crew positions, as well as around the engine. Set the engine to idle, and begin to fire upon the tank, beginning with heavy machine gun fire. Every 30 seconds, halt fire and evaluate damage to both the vehicle's hull and the boards within. When the hull is evaluated as sufficiently degraded to no longer be able to withstand fire or the wood boards are significantly damaged, the vehicle is moved to repair testing. If it withstands 4 minutes of firing periods, light explosives will be detonated in proximity twice every period, and after 8 minutes, direct hits will be added at a rate of one hit per 30 second cycle.
  -[X]Repair testing - Have repair crews fix the tank up as best they can - note what tools they need to use and how long it takes them. If the engine cannot be made operational without removing it from the vehicle, the tank has failed this test entirely.
  -[X]Endurance testing, part 2 - same procedure as last time, but now with the repaired tank. If it doesn't go any more, then the vehicle has failed this test.
  -[X]Weapons testing - With engine in idle, fire weapons. Record the arcs of fire of the weapons, accuracy from within the vehicle, and any failures they experience. If weapons prove functional after earlier tests, have them fire upon a set of steel plates of equivalent thicknesses to those of the most heavily armored tank presently available - that is, a seven millimeter sheet, a 14 millimeter sheet, and a 20 millimeter sheet.
  -[X]This is to be done with as many vehicles as are available of each type, with priority for those made as would be built under mass production.

  • TortugaGreen
  • Michael Lewis
  • Cawasnow

  3 people have voted

  [x]Shoot the Shit

  • globalwarmth
  • Sarpedon
  • SirLagginton

  2 people have voted

  [x]Plan Simulation
  -[x] Build or borrow (gotta be some bypassed/behind the lines trench somewhere) a trench structure. Should include hardpoints.
  -[x] Ideal testing. The vehicle moves across the test range firing on targets attempting to reach the other side and 'kill' as many targets as possible.
  -[x] Defense testing. Put the vehicle in the middle of the range with pork sides as crew and fire at it, starting with pistols and moving up to hmg with AP ammo. Include direct and angled fire from various ranges.
  -[x] Heavy Defense. Move to an artillery training range and have friendly artillery put shells progressively closer to see when the vehicle is soft/hard killed.
  -[x] Light Defense. Move to an infantry training area and have the infantry practice close assault on armor.
  -[x] Bad Going testing. Repeat move/fire testing after getting artillery to chew up the test range. Include currently/ has rained conditions.

  • SAGrognard
  • Pyro Hawk

  1 people have voted

  [x]Shoot the Shit
  -[X]Request additional testing models
  -[X]Mobility Testing (see how mobile they actually are), combined with Repair Testing for when they break down.
  -[X]Armor Testing, wherein we shoot the shit out of them with any available enemy small-arms we have on hand, as well as simulated near-misses from artillery fire, grenades, and other weapons, with pigs/bacon inside
  --[X]Combine with additional repair testing to see how well crews can potentially repair battle damage.
  --[X]Once initial armor and repair testing is concluded, see how they respond to direct fire from enemy field guns, ranging from light infantry guns up to heavier field pieces for the purposes of seeing how and if they'll burn and if direct hits might be potentially survivable

  • Rat King

 

[7734]

Mandatory watching to anyone interested in what you really spend all day doing.

(Edit: Also the opening montage has several vehicles you may see expies of in this quest derping around)

 

[7734]

For everyone's information, a white paper is basically a deceleration of intent: this is where we think we're headed. You're not writing specs, you're basically making a wish list slash goal sheet.

 

[brmj]

It's too early to have radios in the tank, right?

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As a natural consequence of some of the contents of my omake, we're probably not far off from radio equipment that could survive a tank's vibrational environment and the kind of jars it might get from gunfire and uneven terrain. The bigger issues are power and an antenna.

On the power side of things, it is perfectly possible to do radio communications with what batteries of the era could realistically put out. Look up "QRP" sometime. These days, hams do that sort of thing as a challenge and can sometimes even achieve intercontinental ranges with luck, skill and a good antenna. Back in the tech level we are dealing with, though, the equivalent is radio sets made from a design from a magazine and built in a shed or something with a range in at most the low tens of miles and more likely quite a bit less I would think. For substantial range, you need more power than that. Power that a tank engine could in principle provide, but there's no way the relevant equipment is going in our standard tank. Receivers, on the other hand, take no power at all: at this tech level, using vacuum tubes to make receivers more sensitive than a crystal radio is maybe just starting to be experimented with. We've got an advantage in having something on the path towards being a modern diode to work with, but that's a bigger deal for reliability than it is for sensitivity. It's also worth noting that that type of "detector" is good enough for AM voice, which should be in the earliest experimentation at this stage but won't be practical for quite some time.

Antennas: First of all, understand that antennas need to be a substantial fraction of the wavelengths they are meant to work with if they are going to work very well. There are tricks you can use to help with this, but many haven't been invented yet and they only work so well. Next, understand that at this tech level, "shortwave" and "high frequency" were entirely unironic terms, rather than referring to the longest wavelengths anyone would think to use for things other than talking to submarines. 80 meters or so might be around the practical limit, and the wavelengths people are mostly using will be well over 200. With that in mind, an antenna permanently mounted on a tank is probably a non-starter, and some kind of mast that could be raised as needed is at best a huge technological achievement that would involve hours of setup time and one or more wagons to carry the pieces. What we're realistically left with is wire antennas that can be hung from trees, buildings and the like, or maybe even anchored to a kite or balloon for a vertical antenna. It should also be noted that vertical antennas need a good ground, which a tank may or may not adequately provide, while a wire dipole can do without.

With all that in mind, we can't possibly put a radio on a tank for use in combat, and putting a radio transmitter on a tank that can be used while parked would require either a very specialized variant and more room inside than we can reasonably expect to have, or a short range transmitter carried in one or more large boxes stowed externally. However, a receiver that can be used while parked with a bit of setup time is actually not too hard if we've got a little room for it, and a specialized radio vehicle should be possible if we had a use for it and the time and money to throw at it.

People who know more than me about our actual needs can make of all this whatever they like.

Here's a resource on the sort of things you can do with compact equipment and battery power at this tech level. We can replace the coherer (figure 4) with a rudimentary diode, but otherwise this isn't far off from what the system we end up with might look like. If I'm reading it right, they even seem to be using a copper plate as something like a capacitance hat for their antenna to let them get decent results with a shorter length than would otherwise be necessary, though they don't seem to have any idea that that's how it actually works. We could probably do something like that to keep antenna length somewhat manageable.

 

[7734]

Reply that's been waiting until I have a Real Keyboard

As a natural consequence of some of the contents of my omake, we're probably not far off from radio equipment that could survive a tank's vibrational environment and the kind of jars it might get from gunfire and uneven terrain. The bigger issues are power and an antenna.

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Currently, the Iromic Army attaches a Signals Battalion to every Division, from which descend four Signals Companies, to be attached to each regiment. Of each Signals Company, there are six Signals Platoons to be attached to the regimental assets (4x infantry battalion, 1x artillery battalion, 1x cavalry battalion or Mountaineers battalion) per standard infantry division) consisting of field telephones and telegraphs, semaphore units, and a Radio Team in charge of the battalion radio. Due to the many mountainous regions of the Iromic Empire, radio hasn't exactly taken off with flying colors, but it is used for lateral communication quite heavily by the units currently involved in the fighting. Radio teams of a Signals Platoon are granted four horses and wagons, one steam electrical generator, and one rather large and unwieldly spark-gap radio. Traditionally, the first wagon is for the antenna (to be lofted via oil-powered hot air balloon or strung across available trees) while the second wagon is the radio itself and logbooks, the third wagon being the generator, and the last wagon containing fuels and spares for all and sundry devices. Whenever possible, radios are substituted with field telegraphs due to the later's higher message thoroughfare rate and reliability; that said, many signals companies swear by their radio platoon's ability to remain in contact through situations that would stop a field telegraph from maintaining contact- as long as the radios have been in contact before the events have started.

 

[Winged_One²]

Ok, time for the return of The Table. This time I'll be making annotations to some of these entries, because they're very FUN.

	Main Guns/Mounting	Additional machine guns	AA Usable	Frontal armor	Side armor	Engine	Notes:
KW-1	5.5cm turreted/7.5cm hull	8	1	30	19	2 Wanderer Diesel	Acceptable
GK-2 GK-3	3.5 rotary + 2x5.5 sponson 2x5.5cm in separate turrets	5+10 8	10 0	22 spaced	16	2x Three-cylinder hot bulb	It's time to stop
SzW-1	10.5cm turreted, 3.5cm hull	6	0?	45	20	?	Delete the hull gun for an MG/plate, Penis Compensator gun (should hold a tank-tank gun should that ever be needed)
W-5/6	2cm autocannon or 3.5cm light tank gun		Possibly the autocannon? RIP	Same old? Possibly improved	Same old? Possibly improved	?	Autocannons go, proven design
W-8	5.5cm short			Same old? Possibly improved	Same old? Possibly improved	?	A nice middle ground between the monstrosity of the Skoda an the failtanks that the others entered

 

[Winged_One²]

So, I am late, (very late), but The Table will still happen (getting my data straight from the QM now, so no more transcription errors):

	Speed(rough terrain) in km/h	Thrown Tracks	Engine Issues	Crew Issues	Other	Gunnery Notes
KW-1	7.5(5)	12	6	5	2	Decent to Good
SwZ-1	3(3)	15	4	1	5 (fuel)	Shrapnel makes up for error in aim
GK-2	9.8(6)	18	2	5		Decent
GK-3	9.6(6)	20	2	2	1(Cascading Failure)	Better than the -2 by roughly a third
W-5	11.6(8)	10	5	5	5 (2x Fuel, 2x UXO, 1 Unknown)	Very quick-follow up, Good
W-6	11.4(8)	10	6	4	5 (the same)	Bad at unknown distance (worse weather than the rest)
W-8	11.1(8)	10	4	6	5 (again)	Very poor at unknown range (really bad weather)

Out of all the machines we have right now, the GK-3 is the one I'm the most willing to throw into the fight despite my distaste for multi-turret machines - the Skoda is an amazing gun platform but needs a good bit more fuel. Either the Autocannon or the 5.5cm Wanderer are a good Cavalry Tank followup (I would like a retrial of the 5.5 gunnery with better weather so they stand on even ground).

Going to make a voting plan soon™ with the improvements I have in mind.

 

[7734]

I have a question for the assult gun is it intended to be used like the priest or the stug?

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Currently, the plan is yes. The organizational niche is for them to push up as the first heavy elements after a breakthrough so to support more free-ranging elements. This is universely regarded as mildly risky, since once the hole is punched through there's a lot of scrambling to push it closed. Currently the modus operandi for sealing a breech that doesn't leave the units its going through absolutely shattered is to use packet movement to shore up the sides to keep it from widening while waiting for the back-line units to come in to stop it from turning into a general breech and rout.

The idea behind the SPG project and artillery tractor is to get the short artillery, which is actually liable to to be in position for organic on-call support, into position faster and dig out the side elements so that the breakthrough formation can drag in their backup formations and actually be in position to punch the advancing units off before the enemy reinforcements can get their big hitters into position to start slamming in. When it takes 105s and 155s to really gut a trench network, you need something big enough to keep them on the back foot so they can't get those huge guns into position.

And for people wondering how this ties into the armor doctrine... well, what opened the door for this to happen in the first place?

 

[7734]

So, since you guys jumped from the tutorial level to the medium level to DARK SOULS MODE I've decided I'll actually get around to explaining how money works.

First, it needs to be clarified that the monetary pool isn't a fixed and finite resource. It ebbs and flows, depending on the mood of High Command and the Civil Government.

Second, your monetary pool is a diminishing resource. Every turn, it goes down depending on how your votes go. This is from the static costs of running an office- paying the telephone and telegraph bills, buying postage, filling the coffee pots, and leaving the night light on.

Third, the rate at which your money pool diminishes depends on your votes. Big plans that do a lot cost more than small plans, and complex line items cost more than simple line items, and line items increase in cost according to an exponential growth formula that starts kicking you at about line seven and aims for the balls at ten. If your line item has a period to diffferentite a new sentence, then that's an extra kick in the budget. Most of this is due to the need to pay overtime, send telegrams versus telegraphs, hire couriers, use the Staff Car, take long-distance calls, and pay stenographers.

Fourth, testing will eat your budget alive. If you plan on having two test trials, get ready to skrimp and save everywhere else, because time and money are tied together real damn tight. Try to spend more time, spend less money. Spend more money, spend less time. Spend any time using a testing ground (where a lot of units get broken in since training grounds are expensive as hell) and you're gonna end up bleeding cash at a stiff rate.

Fifth, leftover money and personal funds can't be spent on projects. This isn't the Early Modern Era, boyos.