Starship Design Bureau
- Thread starter Sayle
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- Sci-Fi
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It's a small ship, that means you build on its strenghts not make it a Swiss army knife. We are already pushing it with starfleet wanting a police panel van of a ship.
- Location
- Australia
[X] Plan Save them All (15/20 Crew)
The new computer chip runs so well that it's basically a free science lab already, so I'm not feeling any pressure to add science labs. Remember that we have dedicated science vessels to produce too, so it's not like the new frigate can't have literally any other ship type in the fleet come with them and use their significantly better science stations on mission.
The new computer chip runs so well that it's basically a free science lab already, so I'm not feeling any pressure to add science labs. Remember that we have dedicated science vessels to produce too, so it's not like the new frigate can't have literally any other ship type in the fleet come with them and use their significantly better science stations on mission.
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NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
If this was supposed to be a general purpose ship, or an explorer, or even a diplomatic craft I'd be all over the extra science. But it's not- it has a specific role which science isn't essential for, and while in a vacuum more flexibility wouldn't be a bad thing, here it's competing for space with upgrades that do directly contribute to fulfilling our mission parameters.
Adding extra shuttles isn't building on our strengths. We're adding redundancy. The scenarios when we will need more than a standard shuttle complement - and keep in mind Voyager lost like seven shuttles in the Delta quadrant and was able to easily build more as needed - is quite small.
This is not a "small warship". This is not a "police panel van". Starfleet does not build warships. It builds starships. And do you know what starships do, day in, day out, as a core requirement of their mission profile? They do science.
And what will the Ferdinand-class will be doing, when we've finished our colonisation rush? Patrolling around, and doing stellar surveys, and all of the random tasks that can best be assigned to a ship in the area. We can tie its hands so that Starfleet needs to call on scarcer, more capable vessels for more than basic scans or deploying some probes- or we can not. But the longevity of the design and the usefulness of it as our bread-and-butter small starship will be greatly enhanced if we instead give it the ability to do the thing that Starfleet is fundamentally about.
Rockeye
Plausible Engineer
- Location
- Midwestern U.S.
I do agree that the extra shuttles seem redundant and unnecessary. But 14 people voted for the plan with them and only 2 for the version without them, so ?????
Our LAST ship design didn't have multidisciplinary science labs either and it was fine.
Our LAST ship design didn't have multidisciplinary science labs either and it was fine.
Duzzit
CSC 1st Multiversal Fleet Commander
- Location
- London, UK
What exactly stops Starfleet from just...redesigning the interior/the additional shuttle bays into a laboratory down the line if the ship is seen as over supplied with shuttles? Like, if the additional shuttles were useless to the design, surely we'd not have had the option to mount the additional storage for them in no?
Also Voyager wasn't able to restock its torpedoes but somehow managed it every episode so perhaps not the best example of rebuilding things in situ with smaller replicators.
- Location
- California
Alas, I don't think we've yet to invent the magic shuttle pez dispensers that allowed Voyager to never run out.
We actually see the system on the protostar.
Institutional inertia, mainly. But if it feels like there's a capability shortfall in 20 years the answer will be "create a new starship class with more modern technology", not a minor refit. Refits are really for when they're tearing up the carpet and want to replace a ton of systems like-for-like.
Right now the shuttles are "we really want to make sure this ship is good for transporting things and search and rescue/evacuations". It's enhancing an existing capability.
The isolinear computer and a basic lab can do basic science, but all that data is going to get fed back to central databases as a "stuff be here" level of detail, the kind the Enterprise gets at the start of an episode where they say "the Yamaguchi Expanse is noted for an abundance of spatial anomalies".
The Renaissance did have the multidisciplinary science labs.
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If we think that the answer to a lack of scientific capability is to do a refit, perhaps a better answer might be to save time and expense of refit, and design it properly from the start?
Doing nebula surveys and cataloguing interstellar spores -not investigating temporal anomalies or new forms of life or the really exciting and dangerous stuff - is going to be what this class has to do for the next twenty or fifty years. Routine, bread and butter work for a starship.
If we this design to have a chance of reaching fifty years, the same sort of run the original Miranda had, we should give it science labs. This future-proofs it as a capable workhorse which is inexpensive, can respond to crises, and do everything sorta-okay, whilst being cheaper than a cruiser, and hauling an impressive amount of cargo.
If we want the Ferdinand to be a limited production run which becomes outmoded when there isn't an urgent need for starships which can fly fifty new terraforming units to Argox IV and not a lot else, then by all means, we can keep going as we are.
Doing nebula surveys and cataloguing interstellar spores -not investigating temporal anomalies or new forms of life or the really exciting and dangerous stuff - is going to be what this class has to do for the next twenty or fifty years. Routine, bread and butter work for a starship.
If we this design to have a chance of reaching fifty years, the same sort of run the original Miranda had, we should give it science labs. This future-proofs it as a capable workhorse which is inexpensive, can respond to crises, and do everything sorta-okay, whilst being cheaper than a cruiser, and hauling an impressive amount of cargo.
If we want the Ferdinand to be a limited production run which becomes outmoded when there isn't an urgent need for starships which can fly fifty new terraforming units to Argox IV and not a lot else, then by all means, we can keep going as we are.
Running dispersed operations for a colony (disaster relief, search and rescue, etc), acting as sensor or comm relays, getting everyone off of a station in one go, and so on.
There may or may not be better things we can do but it is by no means pointless to add. Especially if it becomes the basis for a future escort carrier when small craft have the edge on sensors to allow for surprise torpedoes.
Hey Skippy, I just found a massive hole in your logic.
Memory alpha says that the Miranda class as built as science/freight vessel from day one. That's why it has labs. In contrast we were told patrol/freight.
I think your comparisons aren't exactly fair.
Memory alpha says that the Miranda class as built as science/freight vessel from day one. That's why it has labs. In contrast we were told patrol/freight.
I think your comparisons aren't exactly fair.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
The brief we were given, to me at least, reads as though Starfleet is requesting a ship that's meant to be running primarily internal patrols and missions. A ship that's meant to move between the Federation's colonies to support them, to respond to pirate attacks, and to generally act within the Federation's borders. That means that it will spend the vast majority of its time in known space, which has been mapped and is relatively well traveled and understood. And I'd expect this to continue even after the current colonisation rush has settled down- you always need some form of internal border patrols and security. As a result, the primary reason you'd need high science- encountering unknown and weird space situations- is significantly less likely to come up, and if it does then support from dedicated science ships is likely available without too much of a delay.
It's true that if the Ferdinand class later gets reassigned to out-of-border patrols, then it would be beneficial to have more science that it currently possesses. But I don't think it will be, because it's just not what the class was asked to do, and because the aforementioned need for internal security and patrols means it already has a niche. And if it does get turned towards an outwards role? Then it has plenty of space for refits, alternate runs, and extra crew. Yes, that's not as elegant as it having them from the start, but I'd rather we have a later refit than saddle it with an advanced lab system it's not going to be in a position to get much use from for the first ten or twenty years of its service life.
Ultimately, advanced science is just something that the class in its current state doesn't seem like it needs, and lacking it won't ruin the class's prospects going forward. And frankly, in this situation I'd rather focus on the definite needs of the now than the nebulous maybes of the future.
It's true that if the Ferdinand class later gets reassigned to out-of-border patrols, then it would be beneficial to have more science that it currently possesses. But I don't think it will be, because it's just not what the class was asked to do, and because the aforementioned need for internal security and patrols means it already has a niche. And if it does get turned towards an outwards role? Then it has plenty of space for refits, alternate runs, and extra crew. Yes, that's not as elegant as it having them from the start, but I'd rather we have a later refit than saddle it with an advanced lab system it's not going to be in a position to get much use from for the first ten or twenty years of its service life.
Ultimately, advanced science is just something that the class in its current state doesn't seem like it needs, and lacking it won't ruin the class's prospects going forward. And frankly, in this situation I'd rather focus on the definite needs of the now than the nebulous maybes of the future.
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Plan Emergency Responder
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There still seems to be a grave misconception operating here; Starfleet does not operate "patrol ships". Starfleet is not a navy or a coast guard. It is a multi-disciplinary exploration and peacekeeping armada, and scientific missions are a key part of that brief. This design proposal asked us for a smaller vessel which can pull freight and escort convoys, because right now we're in a colonisation boom, but that does not mean the core definition of of what a starship does has changed.
It is an unavoidable reality that the Ferdinand-class will be asked to undertake scientific duties as part of its mission profile, especially as colonisation and enrolling new members slows down. This is because it is a Federation starship, and that is what starships do. I can't put it any more simply than that.
It is an unavoidable reality that the Ferdinand-class will be asked to undertake scientific duties as part of its mission profile, especially as colonisation and enrolling new members slows down. This is because it is a Federation starship, and that is what starships do. I can't put it any more simply than that.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I respect this... but I'm paranoid enough to worry that even in "safe" space, our ships will regardless run into emergencies that only a science lab can help them with. That, and Starfleet officers are trained to engage with scientific missions, which the Ferdinand currently just isn't equipped for. It doesn't feel right to make a Starfleet ship that intentionally neglects one of Starfleef's core capabilities to this extent.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
It does design ships to be better suited for specific roles and purposes, however; an Oberth class isn't good at the same things as a Miranda which isn't good at the same things as an Excelsior, even accounting for the differences in sizes. The Ferdinand has a primary purpose, and it's not science- and for a ship where it's not a part of one its main roles, I'd say a 'C' is perfectly respectable; the Ferdinand isn't incapable of science, it's just not particularly good at it. If we needed a B or higher to be a passable Fed starship, then it'd be part of the design parameters.
Here is the thing: based on canon star fleet is the only force the Federation has capable of being the coast guard for the worlds that don't have a native navy like the Andorins do. So for all star fleet wants to focus on exploration, science and diplomacy the Federation goverment has told them "you are the coast guard too, congratulations on this addional responsibility"
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
As mentioned above, the Ferdinand does have science capabilities (C rank, specifically), it's just not a noteworthy part of or design focus of the class. I also suspect that the main casts of the various Trek series don't give a fair impression of how common space weirdness is, between things like 'exploring the furthest reaches of space', 'have the personal attention of Q', 'got flung to a distant space quadrant', and 'Commander is literally chosen by space gods'.
- Location
- England
The Renaissance first entered production in 2337 and the Battle of Wolf 359 happens in early 2367. So, depending on how many years its been since the Renaissance's production run began, we have some amount of years less than 30 before Wolf 359 happens.
If we get that far I suspect we will be told "we need a new mass production hull, a rank production, everything else is a nice to have."