- Location
- USA
Ooh I like this and it would be something Blake with his dread will not contest and may make more effective by countering with a yes and at the same time make the more chivalry members opposed to Blake
Sartier Quest: A Tale of Song, Gods, and Trouble (CK2-Let's Go Hunt Gods, SV!)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Spectrum
Tell me a secret~
- Location
- Behind you~
That's the point!
We were never going to turn the viewpoint of those two, instead it would seek to stoke the flames of Chivalry against it as a Dread action.Entirely valid and appropriate lead-in. Try to seek to turn the Royal Navy characters further against them as well--because of Sonissimmo's shortsightedness they risk the Royal Navy not having any new Royals themselves either, nor wood for repairs to current ones.
And, yes, potentially they've made the Royal Navy a target if the other Houses start asking why they can't have Royals themselves and there's only one source of them now...though they may backfire by pushing the RN further into Sonissimmo's corner if only for protection, given the Etelan origins of the all of their leadership. (Have to still be careful how to handle this.)
- Location
- Australia
Ooookay, this is the product of a lot of behind the scenes discussion 
it's stuff that your nobles would tell you.
It is reeaaally hard to actually come up with proper answers with IC information that doesn't feel like we're trying to railroad things, by the way, while still conveying that you have an elite diplomat on the scene who should know things :S
"Hmm, I need to be careful how I step here. Rebuking them for compromising the Royal Navy is awkward when I just saw two RN commodores demonstrate that they still have their own views, including Ai Ritter, who is a greater Etelan noblewoman by birth. Invoking chivalry is a two-edged sword ... as much as building the Royals is clearly motivated by pragmatism, they can bog me down by discussing how chivalrous the take-over was. I have to keep in mind that we each have real Houses to run and everyone wants to feel secure. And with the antipathy between Capo and Sonissimmo, they're obviously not feeling secure. If I want to undercut the message that this is simply Sonissimmo using Sonissimmo resources, then pointing out the contributions we all make to the Arsenal and the RN will have more impact."
It's important to also put yourself in the shoes of the other factions and see what things are like from their security outlook and the rationale behind their actions. Capo dumped Sonissimmo in favour of Tellar because of their worries about Sonissimmo leading the purging against Teuv in their lands. Sonissimmo is cagey because they just conceded primacy to two Houses working in concert and very few of them comprehend the medium-term fragility of the situation in Carentan (and Hana and Avery have only just learned about Arbalen's revolt). The old established order is broken (Tellar didn't fancy the idea of being led by Capo but likes to keep to itself, Capo doesn't want to be ruled by the others but can't get anyone to agree that they should rule, Sonissimmo had a well established stewardship and diplomacy bent - that's now all overturned) but a new basis has not really been established, at least not as far as Sonissimmo can see and trust.
it's stuff that your nobles would tell you. It is reeaaally hard to actually come up with proper answers with IC information that doesn't feel like we're trying to railroad things, by the way, while still conveying that you have an elite diplomat on the scene who should know things :S
After a little google chatting with the missus...
"Hmm, I need to be careful how I step here. Rebuking them for compromising the Royal Navy is awkward when I just saw two RN commodores demonstrate that they still have their own views, including Ai Ritter, who is a greater Etelan noblewoman by birth. Invoking chivalry is a two-edged sword ... as much as building the Royals is clearly motivated by pragmatism, they can bog me down by discussing how chivalrous the take-over was. I have to keep in mind that we each have real Houses to run and everyone wants to feel secure. And with the antipathy between Capo and Sonissimmo, they're obviously not feeling secure. If I want to undercut the message that this is simply Sonissimmo using Sonissimmo resources, then pointing out the contributions we all make to the Arsenal and the RN will have more impact."
Teuv is, for most, still a more distant threat. They know that Teuv is Public Enemy Number 1 overall, but Capo is the devil next door. Different factions within Sonissimmo (and yes, given they have their own agents and Councilors, there are different agendas at play inside the House) ascribe different weights to each threat. Now, Teuv is muuuuch closer than the rank and file noble in Sonissimmo realises. Moreover, the fact Capo is spiraling out of control internally is not known to them. Instead, they see a united Tellar + Capo: this is the doomsday scenario because of that whole "no one Great House can stand up to both of the others" paradigm. So the faction that focuses most on the threat to greater Etela from their peers is in the ascendant. As a result, they want to make themselves as unpalatable a target as possible, while conceding that offensively there is no effective way to take out either of Tellar or Capo before the other House can be brought to bear on them.And what exactly makes Capo and Tellar as bad as Teuv?Oh no, you might have border skirmishes instead of rebellion, aristocracy overthrown and slaughtered, and the very nearby example of Tranquility.
It's important to also put yourself in the shoes of the other factions and see what things are like from their security outlook and the rationale behind their actions. Capo dumped Sonissimmo in favour of Tellar because of their worries about Sonissimmo leading the purging against Teuv in their lands. Sonissimmo is cagey because they just conceded primacy to two Houses working in concert and very few of them comprehend the medium-term fragility of the situation in Carentan (and Hana and Avery have only just learned about Arbalen's revolt). The old established order is broken (Tellar didn't fancy the idea of being led by Capo but likes to keep to itself, Capo doesn't want to be ruled by the others but can't get anyone to agree that they should rule, Sonissimmo had a well established stewardship and diplomacy bent - that's now all overturned) but a new basis has not really been established, at least not as far as Sonissimmo can see and trust.
Hrm. With this information, I'm inclined to:
1. Undermine the idea that the Arsenal / ships / Royal Navy is Etelan
- Tellar provides the Chiming Forest lumber (at, presumably, a very fair price)
- Capo and Tellar have both provided tithes for decades now - the Arsenal could not have been built and maintained without such support
- This was done out of an understanding that some things are necessary for the security of all of Sartier against those who would destroy us (Teuv, Tranquility)
2. The idea that building Royals will increase security for Etela is false - and will, in fact, lead to the exact opposite result
- While the Royal Navy was considered apolitical, no one worried about where Fleet bases were built, that Royals were produced, or contributing to the Navy, whether that be marines, resources, or money because it was for the good of Sartier as a whole
- In fact, if this is not resolved, it is likely to trigger a naval arms race as Sartier starts to react to the Navy's status as an apparent subordinate and extension of Sonissimo
-- Yes, Royals are synonymous with the Royal Navy by treaty and because they cannot be built except by the joint contributions of all three Great Houses
-- Royals are limited precisely because Sartier CHOSE to limit itself from the more destructive options being used among themselves
- Not only will it trigger an arms race, it's will trigger conflict because Sartier can no longer trust that the Navy will stay out of House politics
-- Houses must respond because it changes the balance of power
- So, building Royals for security actually creates a destructive self-fulfilling cycle that decreases Etelan security and Sartieran stability
- If treaties can be set aside so expediently, it sets a very dangerous precedent for the future
Something like that I think. I'm sure Evelyn will be able to frame it better with her superior info and diplomacy so micromanaging is likely to backfire. With that in mind...
[X] Speak to Sartieran unity, urge people to consider the threats of Teuv and Tranquility before they consider that of their compatriots.
- [X] All of Sartier contributes to the RN - the Arsenal nor the ships it produces is not Etelan; it's Sartieran
[X] Condemn the recklessness of Noble Houses making Royals. It may raise hackles in this crowd, but they need to hear that this isn't okay. It may also restrict your options in future...
- [X] It does the exact opposite of creating security for Etela
1. Undermine the idea that the Arsenal / ships / Royal Navy is Etelan
- Tellar provides the Chiming Forest lumber (at, presumably, a very fair price)
- Capo and Tellar have both provided tithes for decades now - the Arsenal could not have been built and maintained without such support
- This was done out of an understanding that some things are necessary for the security of all of Sartier against those who would destroy us (Teuv, Tranquility)
2. The idea that building Royals will increase security for Etela is false - and will, in fact, lead to the exact opposite result
- While the Royal Navy was considered apolitical, no one worried about where Fleet bases were built, that Royals were produced, or contributing to the Navy, whether that be marines, resources, or money because it was for the good of Sartier as a whole
- In fact, if this is not resolved, it is likely to trigger a naval arms race as Sartier starts to react to the Navy's status as an apparent subordinate and extension of Sonissimo
-- Yes, Royals are synonymous with the Royal Navy by treaty and because they cannot be built except by the joint contributions of all three Great Houses
-- Royals are limited precisely because Sartier CHOSE to limit itself from the more destructive options being used among themselves
- Not only will it trigger an arms race, it's will trigger conflict because Sartier can no longer trust that the Navy will stay out of House politics
-- Houses must respond because it changes the balance of power
- So, building Royals for security actually creates a destructive self-fulfilling cycle that decreases Etelan security and Sartieran stability
- If treaties can be set aside so expediently, it sets a very dangerous precedent for the future
Something like that I think. I'm sure Evelyn will be able to frame it better with her superior info and diplomacy so micromanaging is likely to backfire. With that in mind...
[X] Speak to Sartieran unity, urge people to consider the threats of Teuv and Tranquility before they consider that of their compatriots.
- [X] All of Sartier contributes to the RN - the Arsenal nor the ships it produces is not Etelan; it's Sartieran
[X] Condemn the recklessness of Noble Houses making Royals. It may raise hackles in this crowd, but they need to hear that this isn't okay. It may also restrict your options in future...
- [X] It does the exact opposite of creating security for Etela
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[X] Katreus
This vote seems better than the default options as it addresses both the benefits of Sartier-wide institutions, and the potential negative effects of dismissing and undermining them. While it is highly unlikely to win over all the crowd, it should be enough to turn the sentiment in our favor.
On another point I've though for a couple turns now we should call a Sartier-wide justice meeting given the rising nature of the Teuvian threat, and how even our own court started to get members converting to them. I've mentioned it in the past that currently the Teuvian's have initiative in this conflict as for the most part they're the only ones aware there is a conflict developing, while the other houses focus on their other interests without concern.
Calling a Justice Meeting should counter this by refocusing the Teuvian threat is rising in generalities and to be aware and to start taking preempitive action, and incidentally this seems better than calling a focused Dale justice meeting during the mid-turns which would be more suspect by those Teuvian elements. Calling the meeting would also at least inhibit sentiments that we've seen here in Etela of provincialism, as a gathering of all Sartier houses should improve the cohesive nature and cooperativeness due to facing a common threat.
There may even be issues other Teuvian threat that can be addressed at a Justice Meeting, for example general law and order.
This vote seems better than the default options as it addresses both the benefits of Sartier-wide institutions, and the potential negative effects of dismissing and undermining them. While it is highly unlikely to win over all the crowd, it should be enough to turn the sentiment in our favor.
On another point I've though for a couple turns now we should call a Sartier-wide justice meeting given the rising nature of the Teuvian threat, and how even our own court started to get members converting to them. I've mentioned it in the past that currently the Teuvian's have initiative in this conflict as for the most part they're the only ones aware there is a conflict developing, while the other houses focus on their other interests without concern.
Calling a Justice Meeting should counter this by refocusing the Teuvian threat is rising in generalities and to be aware and to start taking preempitive action, and incidentally this seems better than calling a focused Dale justice meeting during the mid-turns which would be more suspect by those Teuvian elements. Calling the meeting would also at least inhibit sentiments that we've seen here in Etela of provincialism, as a gathering of all Sartier houses should improve the cohesive nature and cooperativeness due to facing a common threat.
There may even be issues other Teuvian threat that can be addressed at a Justice Meeting, for example general law and order.
- Location
- Sweden
I think we should consider marrying ethan as a concession if they give up the royals or something simillar.
Because it will help stop/lessen this feud and it will help the sonissimo feel more secure and we know that teuv is on the Rise. So this feud is taking away actions we can use to prepare for that. And he seems to have decent stats and it will screw over blake.
Edit: sorry for spelling wrote it on the phone.
Because it will help stop/lessen this feud and it will help the sonissimo feel more secure and we know that teuv is on the Rise. So this feud is taking away actions we can use to prepare for that. And he seems to have decent stats and it will screw over blake.
Edit: sorry for spelling wrote it on the phone.
Spectrum
Tell me a secret~
- Location
- Behind you~
And I say again, a long term concession of divided loyalties in our Court is a bad sacrifice to make for Sonissimmo short term bad behavior now. Besides being bad precedent that Sonissimmo just has to act up and get concessions from us, it also lessens our ability to deal harshly with them in the future if we need to. Yes, it may open more diplomatic channels for dealing with them, but it's still basically signalling to me that Sonissimmo's still very much in charge to effectively dictate a Concerto match.
- Location
- Sweden
To my point of view conceding the marriage does sting a bit but not doing so Costs us more if we can't settle this feud, and I believe that with the marriage the sonissimo will feel less threatend and not act up to this degree again.
And if they do? Well we already tried the more diplomatic way so then we can use hardball immediatly.
And we will very likely have to give up some stuff to the sonissimo that will hurt to end this feud and make them feel less insecure about their position if we don't want to be divided when teuv comes.
And if they do? Well we already tried the more diplomatic way so then we can use hardball immediatly.
And we will very likely have to give up some stuff to the sonissimo that will hurt to end this feud and make them feel less insecure about their position if we don't want to be divided when teuv comes.
- Location
- Australia
By the by, I'm now trying to give votes and analysis posts meow ratings to show appreciation
For those who like Meows, vote to your heart's content
For those who like Meows, vote to your heart's content
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FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
I agree with Spectrum here. Agreeing to marry Ethan in order to get Sonissimmo to sit down and shut up re: the Royals means we lost this diplomatic exchange. We will have given up something we really didn't want to give up in exchange for Sonissimmo not doing something they shouldn't have been contemplating doing anyway.
That said, I'm in favour of Evelyn marrying a Sonissimmo in the medium-long term. Hana and I just disagree on which Sonissimmo it should be (Connor, we should marry Connor).
I think I'm going to vote:
[X] @Katreus
Although I do wish it included something about 'voices in Harper were advocating for calling the Harperknights to ride to war' under the 'Building Royals didn't improve Etela's security' section, though it might be counterproductive. @OneirosTheWriter what would be the impact of including that line and how would Katreus's write in be received currently (in Evelyn's best judgement).
- Location
- Australia
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned yet, but the mechanic that is intended to finish off the interlude is that at the end of all the shenanigans and diplomacy/lobbying/investigating/intrigues/proposals ... you'll get a points pool, and a whole slew of different categories with different options and points values. The pool and the costs will be determined by what you get up to.
So you'll be building a deal a la carte. It won't be just about the Royals, since Evelyn does have considerable authority for making a deal. A wide range of possibilities will be in play, including longer-term deals, guarantees, and things like aid for Arbalen, the final disposition of the Navy, the Arsenal, the Tithes, mutual support, etc.
It isn't a naked threat of war, so the actual effects are mooted. But it is an implicit warning that, although it was mentioned to Hana that violent action is preferably off the table, it is (to continue the metaphor) still sitting in your lap.
Evelyn knows that Sonissimmo doesn't want a war. They didn't go to war at Turn 0, and they don't want to start one now. She knows that Capo is way too preoccupied with their Teuv mess to want a war; Sonissimmo didn't know it at the time, but if war had broken out, there's a real chance that Carentan could have gone the way of Tsarist Russia (fwiw, now that they are starting to realise that this may be the case, they want a war even less - despite most members of the House holding their peers to be the most proximate threat, Sonissimmo never forgets Teuv). So Capo also definitely doesn't want a war, despite Antilles and Tarrant growling dangerously at each other (and it is coming out that Sonissimmo agents and members of the Capo family personally undertook diplomacy to keep peace going for another turn between those two).
Harper is the martial house - that it has members who would want a war is very believable for Sonissimmo. Antonia has a number of years as Symphony under her belt, and she is an intimidating figure. Evelyn herself commands respect. This is a two-edged sword, however.
So you'll be building a deal a la carte. It won't be just about the Royals, since Evelyn does have considerable authority for making a deal. A wide range of possibilities will be in play, including longer-term deals, guarantees, and things like aid for Arbalen, the final disposition of the Navy, the Arsenal, the Tithes, mutual support, etc.
Different people will take it different ways. Most people will hear the implicit threat and the attendant marker that war is a much closer prospect than they may have thought, and a chance for a lasting peace and security agreement further away than hoped. Ethan will be nervous, Blake it may push into a siege mentality. When people like Hana hear it, she will probably try and throttle Blake again, but then start weighing up the odds of making greater Etela too difficult to swallow. The Royal Navy will start deciding in earnest whether to push Sonissimmo away or hold them closer, and Evelyn really doesn't yet know how that would fall. Penelope may be made much more pliable; dread characters don't like costs, and aren't fussed enough by chivalry to "endure the unendurable".
It isn't a naked threat of war, so the actual effects are mooted. But it is an implicit warning that, although it was mentioned to Hana that violent action is preferably off the table, it is (to continue the metaphor) still sitting in your lap.
Evelyn knows that Sonissimmo doesn't want a war. They didn't go to war at Turn 0, and they don't want to start one now. She knows that Capo is way too preoccupied with their Teuv mess to want a war; Sonissimmo didn't know it at the time, but if war had broken out, there's a real chance that Carentan could have gone the way of Tsarist Russia (fwiw, now that they are starting to realise that this may be the case, they want a war even less - despite most members of the House holding their peers to be the most proximate threat, Sonissimmo never forgets Teuv). So Capo also definitely doesn't want a war, despite Antilles and Tarrant growling dangerously at each other (and it is coming out that Sonissimmo agents and members of the Capo family personally undertook diplomacy to keep peace going for another turn between those two).
Harper is the martial house - that it has members who would want a war is very believable for Sonissimmo. Antonia has a number of years as Symphony under her belt, and she is an intimidating figure. Evelyn herself commands respect. This is a two-edged sword, however.
Macchiato
Grumpy Rabbit
- Location
- Girt by sea
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Sonissimmo, and Etelans largely, aren't really big on the whole subtlety thing, both giving and receiving. So most of them, and certainly the ones in the room, will probably bristle at even the implication of such a thing and consider it an unwarranted response, even if she didn't directly say it was something she was a proponent for. Hana will shrug it off because she fostered at Tellar and knows that environment a bit better than a lot of Etelans.
I'm a little tired of the mysterious cryptic quest runner thing so I'm going to do a thing because I'm a bit exasperated and hot headed right now (blame my constant cycling of Hamilton). Whether or not Evelyn and Tellar choose to recognise it, Sonissimmo is actually not behaving unreasonably. No House is going to maintain an all-consuming control of everyone in their region, and obviously not even necessarily within their House. Let's be honest, everyone has rogue elements and Blake is so obviously a rogue element among Sonissimmo with his stats (and actions thus far as a result). I'm just going to point at Clara Winter and Melody Piar over there in your pockets and ask if you would be always happy to pay the price for their actions as a Great House. No, not always? Didn't think so.
Let's put some things into perspective. Sonissimmo was the ruling house for decades. They're war heroes and solid stewards. This is not nothing. The debts that are incurred during a war can be astronomical, and a lot of relationships internationally and domestically would have had to be fostered and cannot simply be cut off and redirected at the drop of a hat. Capo's feelings on the matter are hugely coloured by their hostility towards Sonissimmo's general MO, and vice versa, and that's pretty much been the go for about as long as Sonissimmo's been ruling. Tough titties for them because they don't have the balls to step up and rule, they push Tellar in the firing line instead and then have the luxury of bitching in the background. And right now, for Evelyn to be even obliquely threatening or offering up such an idea is going to read as Tellar really not having an ability to read the signs or placing the appropriate weight in the appropriate places. Like Tellar, I know you're new to this, but it's not all about the size of your ego okay? You're backing what is essentially a key party in your nation into a corner when you know you've got Teuv simmering in the background just waiting for the right moment. Let's keep the main thing the main thing.
"That was a real nice declaration/Welcome to the present, we're running a real nation."
Rant over.
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- Location
- Australia
In sum, this interlude should be considered in a much broader scope than simply applying a punishment. This is one of those opportunity-obstacles. The Royals are your wedge to establish a state of political play that will extend throughout the Arbalen crisis. (And I know, players should be allowed to find this out themselves, but it will probably be more enjoyable for all concerned if we're all definitely on the same page )
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I have the Shark avatar, Macchiato the cuddly bunny rabbit, and yet she's the one that will kill you
)Edit:
I have the Shark avatar, Macchiato the cuddly bunny rabbit, and yet she's the one that will kill you
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Macchiato
Grumpy Rabbit
- Location
- Girt by sea
- Pronouns
- She/Her
You mean being the person to write the crazy scary lady who offed Arnold wasn't coincidence?Edit:
I have the Shark avatar, Macchiato the cuddly bunny rabbit, and yet she's the one that will kill you
Look, it does say Grumpy Rabbit, I'm calling that fair warning.
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OK, just to clarify, these QM responses are in reaction to the Harperknights comment, right?
Does Evelyn see any issues with the added in portions of my vote? I presume she'll veto them if there's something wrong with them (info wise or reaction wise by the crowd).
On another note, speaking of treaties, I'm really surprised that even someone like Blake is pretty cavalier about this while none of the other Sonissimos react to it. Weakening treaties hurts Sonissimo the most given their diplomacy focus. Your diplomatic skills can't come into play for a lasting effect if, at any point, people may decide just to drop the treaty when it's inconvenient. Houses aren't going to say, oh, it was just the Royals treaty that was broken so we'll stick to squirming around that one - they're going to consider the treaties that are most inconvenient to them. In a way, if Sonissimo, the responsible stewardship and diplomacy house, is A-OK with breaking or, at least, strongly bending these treaties willy nilly, it puts 'breaking treaties' into play for most Houses.
Edit: (This particular state of affairs, should it come to pass, probably benefits Capo the most, hilariously enough. Given their intrigue focus, they probably come in with an information asymmetry.)
Re: Connor - I don't like his traits or overall stat block. That said, Ethan's ... side issues (Blake most prominent) are problematic too. We'll see how things shake out.
Does Evelyn see any issues with the added in portions of my vote? I presume she'll veto them if there's something wrong with them (info wise or reaction wise by the crowd).
On another note, speaking of treaties, I'm really surprised that even someone like Blake is pretty cavalier about this while none of the other Sonissimos react to it. Weakening treaties hurts Sonissimo the most given their diplomacy focus. Your diplomatic skills can't come into play for a lasting effect if, at any point, people may decide just to drop the treaty when it's inconvenient. Houses aren't going to say, oh, it was just the Royals treaty that was broken so we'll stick to squirming around that one - they're going to consider the treaties that are most inconvenient to them. In a way, if Sonissimo, the responsible stewardship and diplomacy house, is A-OK with breaking or, at least, strongly bending these treaties willy nilly, it puts 'breaking treaties' into play for most Houses.
Edit: (This particular state of affairs, should it come to pass, probably benefits Capo the most, hilariously enough. Given their intrigue focus, they probably come in with an information asymmetry.)
Re: Connor - I don't like his traits or overall stat block. That said, Ethan's ... side issues (Blake most prominent) are problematic too. We'll see how things shake out.
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- Location
- Australia
She says, while posting from bed while swaddled in pretty much every soft and fuzzy blanket in the house!
Macchiato
Grumpy Rabbit
- Location
- Girt by sea
- Pronouns
- She/Her
They haven't exactly closed ranks around the guy Vincennes style either, and Blake's definitely not a secret Teuvian, although they're both family and Vice Marshals, respectively. There are ways to punish someone's actions without publicly undermining them.
- Location
- Australia
It's partly in regards to the Harperknights comment, but it extends further than that to be part-warning and part-suggestion on how to address the interlude/Sonissimmo.
The two key elements to consider is that Blake is dread, not chivalry, and strongly so, so breaking a treaty for convenience is something that he would be cavalier about. But the broader issue is that Sonissimmo is not sure how much stock to put in the treaties at the moment, and for many people there is more comfort in hard timber than in parchment. That said, they are uncavalier enough about it that Hana was willing to disclose internal workings of her House to you. Sonissimmo is pretty open with policy and debates and discussion, but the sausageworks part of governing is not normally out in public!
I was considering whether we ought to drop the second part of the vote... but, given Evelyn's reading that the issue comes down to security (or, more accurately, feelings of insecurity), I think we need to address that part as well. We can't speak to Sartier unity if they're just going to disregard it because at the end of the day, Teuv is, apparently, a distant threat and Capo and Tellar a more immediate one.
And, well, I don't think dancing around the subject puts us in a good light really. The more we can avoid comparisons with Capo, the better. It is obvious why we're here. I think we should put our best foot forward and make the case why not playing with the Royal Navy is good for Etela and good for Sartier.
Re: Hana - I'm not disregarding Hana clearly wants to resolve this issue... but I think it was necessary (for Hana) that she needed to distinguish between Blake's action and the Sonissimo's action, at least privately to another Great House (even if it's not as clear-cut as she made it out to be). The revelation is what spurred Evelyn to come over though as a diplomatic effort so it's not like the revelation was out of the goodness of Hana's heart. She is getting a material benefit out of this revelation.
Depending on the results of the interlude, if Sonissimo doesn't somehow signal, even if quietly, that there is a distinction, I think it ends up normalizing this state of affairs, which will end up crippling one part of Sonissimo's toolkit and pushes the island closer to instability.
Hopefully, we do get a good result out of this interlude so that we don't have to consider a brave new world.
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- Location
- USA
Now this is interesting and I plan on diving into this conversation after work. I do think in addition to our response we should try to figure out what we want as a whole as that will help map out or frame responses to each issue
FriedIce
The Authentic Fake
- Location
- Hyperreality
So, I feel that my comments have been taken in the wrong context here so I'm going to try to explain them.
I'm not making any judgements on the justification of this action. Indeed, to a large extent House Sonissimmo is largely blameless in this, its just an awkward situation that we've all got to deal with that originated there. Even taking the issue of politicising the royal navy I could, personally, construct a pretty impressive argument justifying exactly what Sonissimmo did. I mean, Blake's actions are pretty short sighted but in this whole thing Sonissimmo are pretty clearly the wronged party. We did just overthrow them after all.
There will be a (justifiable) mentality in Etela that Sonissimmo need to grab at whatever strings they can to prevent them from being carved up by a Tellar-Capo alliance and they'll probably view it as helping to limit the chance of thousands of dead peasants (Sonissimmo care about that sort of thing) by making the choice of a war far too painful for anyone to contemplate. Kindof how those scholars at the turn of the 20th century were holding up the alliance system as the major proponent of peace, because war was too horrific for anyone to contemplate. We have the horror of the first world war to discount that particular piece of logic but Sartier likely has no such history to draw from.
This makes life difficult for us, but to a degree its expected. It was why I was fine with allowing Sonissimmo to retain de-facto control over the Royal Navy, its why I want Evelyn to marry someone with the Sonissimmo surname. This sort of thing gives Sonissimmo and the rest of Greater Etela some insulation against any moves we might take against them. The fact that we couldn't move against them if we wanted to, what with the clusterfuck in Greater Carrentan, is irrelevant. Appearances are far more important here than reality.
Now, this brings us onto the topic of why I was sounding out if we should threaten military action (and why I was saying that without Hana's behind the scenes diplomacy I'd be in favour of raising the levies). Simply, the threat of military force is incredibly powerful as a persuasive tool. If we raised the levies, we probably wouldn't have had to do anything with them because the fact that we'd be prepared to go that far over this would have been a clear signal for Sonissimmo to back off (perhaps I'm misjudging a bit, threatening military force is always a gamble). This is actually shown in @OneirosTheWriter's answer, threatening war could pay off but could backfire horrendously. It was why I was trying to ground it in the statement that some people (ie. not Evelyn, Antonia or Luna) in Harper (the martial house) were calling for the Harperknights (not the levies or the militia) to ride to war.
Oneiros', and @Macchiato's to an extent, answer has basically placed me into the 'lets not do that' camp. Its probably not worth the risk, frankly, and would just reinforce the siege mentality they have going. However, before we take the threat of military force off the table we should always consider whether it'd be useful, its too useful to not.
'winning was easy young man, governing is harder'
I'm not making any judgements on the justification of this action. Indeed, to a large extent House Sonissimmo is largely blameless in this, its just an awkward situation that we've all got to deal with that originated there. Even taking the issue of politicising the royal navy I could, personally, construct a pretty impressive argument justifying exactly what Sonissimmo did. I mean, Blake's actions are pretty short sighted but in this whole thing Sonissimmo are pretty clearly the wronged party. We did just overthrow them after all.
There will be a (justifiable) mentality in Etela that Sonissimmo need to grab at whatever strings they can to prevent them from being carved up by a Tellar-Capo alliance and they'll probably view it as helping to limit the chance of thousands of dead peasants (Sonissimmo care about that sort of thing) by making the choice of a war far too painful for anyone to contemplate. Kindof how those scholars at the turn of the 20th century were holding up the alliance system as the major proponent of peace, because war was too horrific for anyone to contemplate. We have the horror of the first world war to discount that particular piece of logic but Sartier likely has no such history to draw from.
This makes life difficult for us, but to a degree its expected. It was why I was fine with allowing Sonissimmo to retain de-facto control over the Royal Navy, its why I want Evelyn to marry someone with the Sonissimmo surname. This sort of thing gives Sonissimmo and the rest of Greater Etela some insulation against any moves we might take against them. The fact that we couldn't move against them if we wanted to, what with the clusterfuck in Greater Carrentan, is irrelevant. Appearances are far more important here than reality.
Now, this brings us onto the topic of why I was sounding out if we should threaten military action (and why I was saying that without Hana's behind the scenes diplomacy I'd be in favour of raising the levies). Simply, the threat of military force is incredibly powerful as a persuasive tool. If we raised the levies, we probably wouldn't have had to do anything with them because the fact that we'd be prepared to go that far over this would have been a clear signal for Sonissimmo to back off (perhaps I'm misjudging a bit, threatening military force is always a gamble). This is actually shown in @OneirosTheWriter's answer, threatening war could pay off but could backfire horrendously. It was why I was trying to ground it in the statement that some people (ie. not Evelyn, Antonia or Luna) in Harper (the martial house) were calling for the Harperknights (not the levies or the militia) to ride to war.
Oneiros', and @Macchiato's to an extent, answer has basically placed me into the 'lets not do that' camp. Its probably not worth the risk, frankly, and would just reinforce the siege mentality they have going. However, before we take the threat of military force off the table we should always consider whether it'd be useful, its too useful to not.
'winning was easy young man, governing is harder'
Macchiato
Grumpy Rabbit
- Location
- Girt by sea
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm not going to say I'm surprised that you took what I said as directed at you @FriedIce, I mean I quoted your post
In reality, my irritation from last night has been simmering for awhile. The full scope of what I was irritated about probably wasn't too clear. I was requested to delete some of my more incendiary content by my resident editor (yes, it was actually much worse before he suggested I delete), that might have shed more light on that. But anyway it wasn't aimed at any one person.
In reality, my irritation from last night has been simmering for awhile. The full scope of what I was irritated about probably wasn't too clear. I was requested to delete some of my more incendiary content by my resident editor (yes, it was actually much worse before he suggested I delete), that might have shed more light on that. But anyway it wasn't aimed at any one person.
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