Sartier Quest: A Tale of Song, Gods, and Trouble (CK2-Let's Go Hunt Gods, SV!)

@drake_azathoth What are your thoughts on how to accomplish those within the framework we've been given? I feel that the proposal by Katreus to limit our personal micromanagement and let the magic of IC Elite! Diplomacy probably has merit, even if it risks missing a point we would like to make...at the benefit of mitigating the risks of any option we want to write in really being boneheaded.
I feel that Katreus, while right to lean on Evelyn's diplomacy rather than do a huge write-in, is still being more confrontational than we really need to be in front of a Sonissimo crowd- better to imply this was an impulsive but ill-considered decision that compels Tellar and Capo to regretfully stepping aside than condemning their entire Noble House. It also misses pointing out our recent victory and lauding the actual Navy.

[] Speak to Sartieran unity, urge people to consider the threats of Teuv and Tranquility before they consider that of their compatriots.
- [] All of Sartier contributes to the RN - the Arsenal nor the ships it produces is not Etelan; it's Sartieran
[] Condemn the recklessness of Noble Houses making Royals. It may raise hackles in this crowd, but they need to hear that this isn't okay. It may also restrict your options in future...
- [] It does the exact opposite of creating security for Etela

I'd revise to:
[X] Point out that this business with the Royals is an obvious statement that the Royal Navy is a Sonissimo sinecure- a statement Sonissimo is backing further. That may seem attractive to some rash young nobles in light of recent events, but the honor of Tellar and Capo will compel them to withdraw support from the Royal Navy in favor of building their own lesser fleets if it continues, lest they be painted as cowering underneath Sonissimo's naval protection.
-[X] This is particularly saddening in light of the recent victories by the Royal Navy and combined forces against the pirate scum of the Isles. We seem to be on the cusp of a new era of strengthened trade, a fracturing of the Navy could give pirates and any foreign power a chance to cast us down again.
 
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@Spectrum

Yes, I find that the current spokes that I placed my suggested lines of debate under are a little more confrontational or stronger than I would have put them myself. OTOH, I didn't really want to micromanage Evelyn since she is, after all, an elite diplomat and I definitely am not. I also didn't like that it ended on a bit of a more down note but I thought placing the two planks the other way around would get Evelyn bogged down.

I like @drake_azathoth 's suggestion as it's more positive, but I'm not quite sure conceding that the Royal Navy is a Sonissimo sinecure gets what we want. That basically means the treaty is broken altogether, which is, IMO, a much bigger consequence than even Blake (apparently) was willing to go, and I think we can still step back from the ledge.

[X] Undermine the idea that the Arsenal and the ships it produces are Etelan only
- [X] All of Sartier contributes to the RN, the Arsenal, and the Royals
[X] Discuss whether building Royals actually increases Etelan security
- [X] Suggest that it, instead, decreases Etelan security and weakens Sartier as a whole
[X] Circle back to the necessity of a strong, apolitical RN that works alongside all Houses for the safety and prosperity of Sartier against those who would bring us down (Teuv, Tranquility)

On the one hand, Levar is ... potentially a future point of contact that may have benefits down the road. On the other hand, I sorely wished we had taken the Etelan songweaver option so that we could honestly say it was a 3 Great House adventure. As it is, I'm not sure asking Capo to back us up didn't spur on some of the paranoia about Sonissimo being frozen out or carved up due to the Capo-Tellar alliance. It's also why I'm hesitant to bring up the Nune Reef as a good example of working with the RN, especially since OOC, we know that our Nune Reef performance was part of the reason this incident came about.
 
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That, I can back

[X] Undermine the idea that the Arsenal and the ships it produces are Etelan only
- [X] All of Sartier contributes to the RN, the Arsenal, and the Royals
[X] Discuss whether building Royals actually increases Etelan security
- [X] Suggest that it, instead, decreases Etelan security and weakens Sartier as a whole
[X] Circle back to the necessity of a strong, apolitical RN that works alongside all Houses for the safety and prosperity of Sartier against those who would bring us down (Teuv, Tranquility)
 
I like @drake_azathoth 's suggestion as it's more positive, but I'm not quite sure conceding that the Royal Navy is a Sonissimo sinecure gets what we want. That basically means the treaty is broken altogether, which is, IMO, a much bigger consequence than even Blake (apparently) was willing to go, and I think we can still step back from the ledge.
I'm not sure where I concede that the Royal Navy is a Sonissimo sinecure? What I'm saying is that painting the Royals in Sonissimo colors is a clear statement that it IS a Sonissimo sinecure, and that Sonissimo is moving to make it so in reality, a political direction that will have consequences when Tellar and Capo are forced to pull out in response.

Perhaps it needs to be rephrased, but there's not a lot of arguing with that. We can't really prevent Sonissimo from taking over the Royal Navy short of war since they control the naval academy et al, but we can point out the negative consequences and portray them as inevitable if the rash course is pursued rather than as escalation on our part.

As far as our Nune Reef performance- we really should mention it. It's a show that Tellar is not just a paper tiger, that there really are things Tellar and Capo bring to the table. And the majority of the populace, including the Navy, are likely to view it in a resoundingly positive way.
 
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And the majority of the populace, including the Navy, are likely to view it in a resoundingly positive way.
Maybe? Recall that I had to clarify last turn whether Sonissimmo would view it as an insult to have invited them to provide troops for the assault by basically rubbing the failure in their face. The victory is not universally positive.

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@OneirosTheWriter @Macchiato
It's an arrival of enough portent to get Hana and Ethan out to personally greet Evelyn with a hundred-strong honour guard!
For reference, is this intended to be respectful or intimidating?

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Separately, requesting all the information we have at this juncture on the Balan Arsenal, historical or otherwise and especially what their precise relation is with the rest of the Royal Navy. Also given the earlier information we had in prior turns of the purge of RN leadership of non-Etelan origins, what that also meant for the Arsenal. (Realistically, no change since all the shipwrights were already Etelan?)
 
For reference, is this intended to be respectful or intimidating?
Respectful. If they were looking to intimidate or act truly defiantly they would have escorted the Pitch Perfect to the docks with their four new Royals.


Separately, requesting all the information we have at this juncture on the Balan Arsenal, historical or otherwise and especially what their precise relation is with the rest of the Royal Navy. Also given the earlier information we had in prior turns of the purge of RN leadership of non-Etelan origins, what that also meant for the Arsenal. (Realistically, no change since all the shipwrights were already Etelan?)

The Royal Arsenal is a set of four slipways (with a fifth soon to be completed) housed in large sheds, with a supporting complex ringed by a defensive wall that extends out into the bay. It contains drying yards for timber, and storage yards for canvass, rope, oars, and other essentials. There is a section for workshops, and a forge complex for creating fittings. Offices for shipwrights and designers are also present. It is administered by the Arsenal Lord Justine Sonissimmo, who is one of five key officers of the Royal Navy.

The complex itself has roots that precede the Royal Navy, going back three hundred years to when it was the military yards of the Sonissimmo noble house. When the Royal Navy was created, it was designated as the site for the nascent force to build their ships, since Etela had the best engineers. Exactly whose idea it was to make use of the Chiming Forest lumber in the new ship is debated, but it is known that this was Tellar's early contribution. Capo however, is the traditional manufacturer of the deadly rams used by Royals, and shipments of them are sent regularly to the Arsenal for new builds and replacing worn ones. Songweavers from all three of the Houses are also involved in the construction process.

In terms of gold much of the cost of the Royal Navy has been borne by Sonissimmo. The tithe ostensibly is for the upkeep of both Army and Navy, however due to expansions, the 10,000g/turn from both Capo and Tellar covered two-thirds of the cost of the Royal Army, meaning it was shared three ways. However, the Royal Navy's cost has been an extra 20,000g on top of that**, and the tithe was never renegotiated to cover the expansion in cost. This, as well as a deep-seated cultural affinity for the Royal Navy, was why Sonissimmo originally refused to relinquish their hold over the entity.

Now, the Balan Arsenal is not contiguous with the Royal Navy's Cloister, they're on different sides of the bay, and to a certain extent as a non-combat arm whose Civil Upkeep comes separately from Sonissimmo coffers, it operates at arm's length. It is not used to conduct routine maintenance on Royals, only to carry out the mid-life refurbishment, or to conduct major repairs. As such, it operates as a dedicated sub-contractor of the Royal Navy, with one of their own in charge to make sure that they don't start price-gouging or misbehaving. Every couple years a few hulls are built to replace aging Royals so a constant flow of work comes through the Arsenal.

The purge meant relatively little to the Arsenal. A few traditionalists who might be particularly stubborn were induced into retirements, but by and large there was little change. The shipwrights are not the sort of thing recruited from across the continent, they are by and large commoners, drawn from the already extensive Balan Harbour shipbuilding community.

** = Co-QM Note: There is a not insubstantial part of all this that derives from the fact I accidentally (my fault, not Macchiato's) baked in a shortfall when I was setting up the economic model of Sartier (the Royal Army was devised first, the Royal Navy later). You may say that the fact the Royal Navy wasn't covered was stupid. You'd be right :V but it's my stupid :oops:
 
It is administered by the Arsenal Lord Justine Sonissimmo, who is one of five key officers of the Royal Navy.
How often does this post rotate, if at all? Are there separate kinda promotion tracks for someone intended to be the Arsenal Lord within the rest of the Royal Navy? Theoretically, this person is supposed to be in-tune with the rest of the Navy and guide the Arsenal appropriately, but if they decide to do their own thing, it perhaps actually isn't the rest of the RN's fault? (How is Justine related to Hana and Avery?)
In terms of gold much of the cost of the Royal Navy has been borne by Sonissimmo. The tithe ostensibly is for the upkeep of both Army and Navy, however due to expansions, the 10,000g/turn from both Capo and Tellar covered two-thirds of the cost of the Royal Army, meaning it was shared three ways. However, the Royal Navy's cost has been an extra 20,000g on top of that**, and the tithe was never renegotiated to cover the expansion in cost. This, as well as a deep-seated cultural affinity for the Royal Navy, was why Sonissimmo originally refused to relinquish their hold over the entity.
That is...yeah, okay that is plenty relevant.

Still withholding making votes, just trying to shake loose more information that can help (re)structure the current ones.
 
@OneirosTheWriter @Macchiato
So you had mentioned that different Houses had ruled Sartier before, when was the last time before now that a non-Sonissimmo house ruled and what caused the transfers of rulership between houses and how did the houses deal with those transfers?

Also very interesting details on the Royal Navy there. You may want to set aside a few more posts that you can threadmark and combine information onto. I am thinking one page for the background of the Royal Navy and Army plus it can have more info added as we take actions to find out more about them.
 
How often does this post rotate, if at all? Are there separate kinda promotion tracks for someone intended to be the Arsenal Lord within the rest of the Royal Navy? Theoretically, this person is supposed to be in-tune with the rest of the Navy and guide the Arsenal appropriately, but if they decide to do their own thing, it perhaps actually isn't the rest of the RN's fault? (How is Justine related to Hana and Avery?)
The post does not change frequently - yes, it is a separate track from within the Royal Navy as a whole. That said, Justine did captain a ship in her younger days before she transferred back to the shore assignment. However, for the top three billings (Royal Admiral, First Admiral, Arsenal Lord), the appointments are made from available candidates by the ruling House (normally) from a list of available candidates rather than chosen by the navy itself to maintain noble control. Of course, this normally sensible precaution is now a problem...

The complicity of the rest of the Royal Navy is not something that is known with certainty; the Arsenal Lord is capable of acting independently in this manner. Evelyn has now seen two Commodores criticise the decision, but that's a long way from a proper investigation. For the exact relation, I'd need to get at the big family tree book we have at home, I don't remember the degree of relationship for her off the top of my head and it isn't stored in the spreadsheet.
@OneirosTheWriter @Macchiato
So you had mentioned that different Houses had ruled Sartier before, when was the last time before now that a non-Sonissimmo house ruled and what caused the transfers of rulership between houses and how did the houses deal with those transfers?

Also very interesting details on the Royal Navy there. You may want to set aside a few more posts that you can threadmark and combine information onto. I am thinking one page for the background of the Royal Navy and Army plus it can have more info added as we take actions to find out more about them.
Sonissimmo took over from Capo about 60 years ago in the run up to the God's War.
 
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Musing out loud here...
One potential sub-package later could be something like:
Treaty is renegotiated to increase Tithe payments to account for Royal Navy + Sonissimmo reinstates tithe + Sonissimmo is given a credit against the Tithe for the value of the extra support they've provided the Royal Navy without technically having been paid for it. (Yes, yes, indirect influence, and how to tally up Tellar lumber vs Capo rams vs Sonissimmo naval expertise and land usage.)

Sonissimmo took over from Capo about 60 years ago in the run up to the God's War.
How far back is the last time Tellar was in charge? 100 years or so?
 
[X] Undermine the idea that the Arsenal and the ships it produces are Etelan only
- [X] All of Sartier contributes to the RN, the Arsenal, and the Royals
@Katreus Do you perhaps want to consider editing this in some fashion now that we have the budget data showing that Sonissimmo actually was effectively paying for the Royal Navy mostly by itself for the past decades? I think we would want to be careful how to broach that point to avoid looking ignorant of that fact or dismissing their greater monetary contributions out of hand.
 
@Katreus Do you perhaps want to consider editing this in some fashion now that we have the budget data showing that Sonissimmo actually was effectively paying for the Royal Navy mostly by itself for the past decades? I think we would want to be careful how to broach that point to avoid looking ignorant of that fact or dismissing their greater monetary contributions out of hand.

No. Because we have to undermine the idea anyway and we obviously do contribute to the Royal Navy. All the money in the world won't make up for the fact that you need Tellar timbre and Capo rams to create the Royals. It might be a reason to raise the tithe, but Sonissimo didn't bring that up while they were the ruling Symphony. And, in any case, if the RN were under our control, we'd be paying this.
 
No. Because we have to undermine the idea anyway and we obviously do contribute to the Royal Navy. All the money in the world won't make up for the fact that you need Tellar timbre and Capo rams to create the Royals. It might be a reason to raise the tithe, but Sonissimo didn't bring that up while they were the ruling Symphony. And, in any case, if the RN were under our control, we'd be paying this.
That's the point, though? Sonissimmo is going to feel like they have paid more into it so they have more ownership of it, hence the reluctance to cede control. It's not the costs going forward, it's all the back costs. As for whether they didn't bring it up, do we actually know they didn't? Or that they just judged it as part of their whole institution of being leading Symphony (now and forever) so it mattered less?

And, well, having another 20k or so per turn means they could have taken other measures to acquire the unique contributions, really. ;X

I don't think there's as strong a case for the others' contributions, really. Up until now it doesn't seem as if there was a ton of other competing uses that we were sacrificing lumber for. The rams are an actual product, at least. Compare those against the large chunk of funds that could have been used for any other project or the irreplaceable naval expertise and facilities? Eh.
 
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That's the point, though? Sonissimmo is going to feel like they have paid more into it so they have more ownership of it, hence the reluctance to cede control. It's not the costs going forward, it's all the back costs. As for whether they didn't bring it up, do we actually know they didn't? Or that they just judged it as part of their whole institution of being leading Symphony (now and forever) so it mattered less?

And, well, having another 20k or so per turn means they could have taken other measures to acquire the unique contributions, really. ;X

I don't think there's as strong a case for the others' contributions, really. Up until now it doesn't seem as if there was a ton of other competing uses that we were sacrificing lumber for. The rams are an actual product, at least. Compare those against the large chunk of funds that could have been used for any other project or the irreplaceable naval expertise and facilities? Eh.

It really doesn't matter. It is not an issue we can concede on or at least not challenge. That it's somewhat of a muddled issue because Sonissimo chose not to raise the tithes is irrelevant, just as whether Tellar could have used the lumber elsewhere*. It is, however, listed as "undermine" for a reason. At this point, Sonissimo isn't even recognizing that Tellar and Capo do contribute to the Royal Navy and its various attachments in the first place.

* This is a lie. There's always a need for magic-resistant lumber in a world where magic is slung around.

You might as well say Tellar should have taken over much earlier because Tellar, more than any other house or even the Royal Army, has been the sword and shield for Sartier throughout history. Tellar has almost certainly taken the brunt of pirate raids whenever one of the other Houses screws up just as they did roughly a few turns ago - thanks Sonissimo - and Teuvian assaults given their position, and Tellar has almost certainly never been fully - if ever - 'compensated' for being the punching bag of external Sartierian enemies and the times they basically were Sartier's Royal Army. Sonissimo, one could argue, is free to develop its stewardship and diplomatic nous safely in the rear of wars because Tellar has to wallow in poverty as it throws money at its military to fend off assaults. We won't because this is revisionist what-if bullshit.

You are getting too caught up in the opposite now. That there are arguments to be made for both sides does not mean you should be scared to challenge the other side's position, especially when it is clearly wrong (if only because Blake asserted the extreme and unreasonable version of the argument). Refusing to challenge the idea that the Arsenal and its products is all Etelan puts Tellar in an unwinnable position and concedes the dispute entirely.
 
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* This is a lie. There's always a need for magic-resistant lumber in a world where magic is slung around.
Maybe, but not to the extent where we're only getting a research camp up and going -now-.
Sonissimo, one could argue, is free to develop its stewardship and diplomatic nous safely in the rear of wars because Tellar has to wallow in poverty as it throws money at its military to fend off assaults.
Let's be accurate here--Tellar wasn't wallowing in poverty just because of military expenditures. Sonissimmo's military probably actually isn't far off from Tellar if only because they have so much more cash to throw around.
You are getting too caught up in the opposite now. That there are arguments to be made for both sides does not mean you should be scared to challenge the other side's position, especially when it is clearly wrong (if only because Blake asserted the extreme and unreasonable version of the argument). Refusing to challenge the idea that the Arsenal and its products is all Etelan puts Tellar in an unwinnable position and concedes the dispute entirely.
What I'm saying is we have to be mindful of the audience. What is the goal here, to challenge them for its own sake or to convince people? With nationalistic fervor being stoked, attempting to counter that directly isn't going to be very effective. Facts and rational thinking get thrown out the window in that kind of environment.
 
Hey guys, I'm back after being away from the site for a while-


Oh boy.

I... hmm... Well, I'm trying to figure out how to put this... This is politics, guys. When I see people mentioning that they considered calling up the levees because of these Royals, I feel like beating my head against a wall. Besides the simple fact that doing so would bankrupt us and would completely fail to actually make anything better, it would very likely completely shatter any semblance of progress we've made. I said it way, way back at the beginning of the quest. The Sonissimmo, Capo, and even the Vassal Houses, are going to be acting in their best interests, and at times they are going to be poking and prodding us. Expecting them to ever fully "toe the line" is a exercise in futility. We are not some absolute monarch, we are the first among peers. Any reaction along the lines of "we've done so much for them so they should totally fall in line and any step off that line is a personal insult that we should jump straight to the nuclear option for" leaves me with a headache. Yes, it's a problem, and they need to be reprimanded in some way, but the sheer personal feeling and outrage I saw as I was catching up left me bemused. Absolutely nothing about this turn of events surprised me. This is how politics works. Everyone's out for themselves, and if you're the guy on top, then you get stuck with balancing everything. I can guarantee that Tellar would be pulling similar shenanigans if we were playing Sonissimmo.

It's not politics if everybody's happy.

I hate politics.

Alright then, to look at the actual situation, I do have something of a proposal. First, though, a couple notes about the actual event in question, that being the construction of Royals for the Sonissimmo. Two mitigating factors in how we should view this event are the person who carried it out, and the nature of constructing ships itself. Obviously, this was done by Blake, who has a bone to pick with Evelyn at the very least, and likely the Tellar in general. It required some level of complicity from factions of the Sonissimmo, but wasn't an action that was directly endorsed by the House. The other factor is that it takes at least a year to construct a Royal, so this had to have started much earlier, closer to the coup and when Sonissimmo was less sure about its place in Sartier. I consider those two things to be important points that have been glossed over so far, and influence the way that I propose handling the situation.

Beyond that, though, I feel that most people are approaching this from the wrong direction. A lot of people are taking this event as "How can we slap down the Sonissimmo so hard that they become a new world axis" (Just a little hyperbole. ;)). I would rather look at it with a different question, that being "What can we gain from this event?" The answer to that is pretty obvious: the ability to produce Royals for ourselves. It's not really something that we've considered previously, but we can use this precedent to get ourselves access to better ships, and even start spreading them out amongst the Sartierian fleets. That's a good thing because I agree with @veekie: more Royals on the waves is better for us. If Tranquility or Teuv comes knocking, the more hulls we can muster, the better. Obviously, they can also serve as a destabilizing influence, so we are also going to have to take some additional measures to prevent that.

In light of all of these things, here is my proposal: We introduce and endorse the idea of House Royals. A House that can afford to do so can commission Royals from the Balan Arsenal. They shall bear all the costs of producing them, as well as all of the upkeep. They can use these Royals for defense of their harbors, intercepting pirates, pleasure yachts, whatever. However, if the call goes out for the Royal Navy to mobilize, all House Royals immediately fall back under the Royal Navy's command.

This has a couple benefits, mostly in that we begin proliferating Royals and pushing most of the costs in producing them away from ourselves. We also gain access to Royals for ourselves. We get more income from providing lumber for the Royals.

I also feel that this neatly wraps up the issue with Sonissimmo by adding a few more conditions. Part of the reason these four Royals were built is because they wanted a security blanket. Great, they have the first House Royals, so that's their security blanket. They feel safer, we have more Royals for the fleet when things get serious. However, because they went against the treaty, lied about what they were doing (It's pretty obvious that all the wood and ram purchases were made under the banner of more Royal Navy ships), and used Sartierian resources for themselves, they shall subsidize (50%, or something thereabouts) the construction of the first four House Royals that Tellar and Capo each order, as well as subsidize the maintenance costs for 5 years.

This acts as a check on Sonissimmo, as well as giving us several benefits and sending a couple messages. First off, that means that we can actually afford to get Royals, which would be extremely difficult with our current income otherwise. By splitting the cost rather than forcing Sonissimmo to cover the entire amount, it breaks down the idea that "Tellar and Capo are taking advantage of Sonissimmo to strengthen themselves before they divvy up Greater Etala".

All in all, this seems like a good way to get the most out of this little fiasco. Not overly punitive, and fitting with our public line about safeguarding Sartier. Showing forbearance here will pay off greater dividends than taking the stick to all parties involved.
 
So... we have eight voters across five plans, so things are not quiiiite as decisive as could be hoped.

[X] Undermine the idea that the Arsenal and the ships it produces are Etelan only
- [X] All of Sartier contributes to the RN, the Arsenal, and the Royals
[X] Discuss whether building Royals actually increases Etelan security
- [X] Suggest that it, instead, decreases Etelan security and weakens Sartier as a whole
[X] Circle back to the necessity of a strong, apolitical RN that works alongside all Houses for the safety and prosperity of Sartier against those who would bring us down (Teuv, Tranquility)
@Katreus, @veekie

[X] Katreus
@Neptune, @FriedIce

[X] Suggest that maybe removing the exclusivity of Royals is a good idea, but not one that can be done unilaterally.
@wingstrike96

[X] Point out that this business with the Royals is an obvious statement that the Royal Navy is a Sonissimo sinecure- a statement Sonissimo is backing further. That may seem attractive to some rash young nobles in light of recent events, but the honor of Tellar and Capo will compel them to withdraw support from the Royal Navy in favor of building their own lesser fleets if it continues, lest they be painted as cowering underneath Sonissimo's naval protection.
-[X] This is particularly saddening in light of the recent victories by the Royal Navy and combined forces against the pirate scum of the Isles. We seem to be on the cusp of a new era of strengthened trade, a fracturing of the Navy could give pirates and any foreign power a chance to cast us down again.
@drake_azathoth

[X] hold your peace
@Zoxabels

[X] Speak to Sartieran unity, urge people to consider the threats of Teuv and Tranquility before they consider that of their compatriots.
@The Laurent

However, it looks like Plan @Katreus is the winner with three votes.

Edit: Oh wait, four votes - veekie changed their vote to Katreus and I missed it while hand tallying :oops:
 
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Well, I'm more with Aegir's proposed, but there's basically no support so...best I could do was mitigate self inflicted salt injury
 
Well, I'm more with Aegir's proposed, but there's basically no support so...best I could do was mitigate self inflicted salt injury

The good news is, this is hardly the place to actually talk policy, so even if we don't bring it up now, we can still push for it later. That said, if the vote isn't locked at the moment, I'd say that this falls mostly in line with what I want:

[X] Speak to Sartieran unity, urge people to consider the threats of Teuv and Tranquility before they consider that of their compatriots.
[X] Suggest that maybe removing the exclusivity of Royals is a good idea, but not one that can be done unilaterally.
- [X] Royals have always been and always should be used in defense of Sartier. Even if they belong to an individual House, that should be their primary purpose. If the time comes, they should defend all of Sartier, not just the House that commissioned them.

The other thing to note is that, well, the winning plan has 3 votes. It's hardly difficult to support a different plan.

One thing that I feel is important is that we do attempt to give Hana and Avery a way out. We know that they didn't want this, so providing a method for them to save face will help them in the long run and endear us to them. If they can say, "We were worried about further pirate attacks and our own safety, so we made a rash decision to strengthen our fleet. However, we are dedicated to protecting Sartier, so we designate these ships as the first House Royals, to serve as a line of defense for our island that we will pay for out of our own pocket", then they have a way to gracefully defuse the situation.
 
[X] Katreus

I for one do not want Royals to be in House Navy, that way lies an arms race. Also with Sonissimo control of the RN and thus the Arsenal what do you think the likelihood is that they would charge Tellar and Capo inflated rates for construction? Plus I don't think we could afford a naval arms race.

The Royal Navy and Royal Army I think should stay the semi-independent they are supposed to be as a symbol of Sartier's unity.
 
@OneirosTheWriter Ah... No. I won't be switching because I fundamentally disagree with @Aegir's analysis. I think Aegir's analysis only makes sense if there's more than one shipyard that can produce Royals. If there were more than one place to produce Royals, there was probably some sort of inefficient slack wherein we are not taking full advantage of Sartier's shipyard production. Unfortunately, there is, apparently, only the Arsenal, which means every Royal produced for a House is one less produced for the Royal Navy. This is a pretty big opportunity cost.

Any Royals produced for Houses - especially with the limitations placed upon them in @Aegir's proposal - are less efficient. The Houses apparently cannot get their shit together to even patrol with their Minor Houses, much less across their block of the island (i.e. with Vassal Houses). This doesn't even consider coordination across blocks. Does Capo send their Royals to help fend off a pirate attack in the Dale-Vincennes area - which is closer to them than it is to, say, Tellar, who would be the nominal buyers of Royals for the Harper block* - or do they wave as the pirate sails by to to hit Vincennes? Decentralized national defense is crap for a reason, which is why the RN and RA were created in the first place. Decentralized national defense with low national unity is even more crap.

[* And if Tellar is not the nominal buyers of the Harper block, Tellar has more immediate issues to worry about, like being in the midst of a power struggle as to who rules the roost with Carlisle.]

For that matter, you don't actually want Royals randomly patrolling in the first place; you want them there to bring concentrated firepower to a guaranteed fight. This means having them in desultory numbers in various House fleets is also less effective than having them at the various fleet bases around the island.

It also plays back into all the analysis I did earlier re: Veekie's vote (weakens Sartier unity, weakens treaty stability, starts a naval arms race). I don't see any of that analysis answered in @Aegir's vote either so I don't find my concerns answered by his vote.
 
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