Sartier Quest: A Tale of Song, Gods, and Trouble (CK2-Let's Go Hunt Gods, SV!)

Spectrum · Aug 16, 2016

Well, if some of that irritation has been caused by me, I guess sorry? But there are still some things I want to respond to that may pinpoint more my own standpoint on this.

Macchiato said:
I'm a little tired of the mysterious cryptic quest runner thing so I'm going to do a thing because I'm a bit exasperated and hot headed right now (blame my constant cycling of Hamilton). Whether or not Evelyn and Tellar choose to recognise it, Sonissimmo is actually not behaving unreasonably. No House is going to maintain an all-consuming control of everyone in their region, and obviously not even necessarily within their House. Let's be honest, everyone has rogue elements and Blake is so obviously a rogue element among Sonissimmo with his stats (and actions thus far as a result). I'm just going to point at Clara Winter and Melody Piar over there in your pockets and ask if you would be always happy to pay the price for their actions as a Great House. No, not always? Didn't think so.

---

They haven't exactly closed ranks around the guy Vincennes style either, and Blake's definitely not a secret Teuvian, although they're both family and Vice Marshals, respectively. There are ways to punish someone's actions without publicly undermining them.

It's not about publicly undermining or that he went rogue and did this, it's that he appears to be utterly unrepentant and doubling down and continuing to fan the flames of this action. If Melody went off and did a dumb, I would expect whoever to take her aside afterwards and point out why this is a dumb and what we have to do to salvage this. I would continue to be very unhappy if she publicly continued that behavior and made matters worse instead of at least trying to steer clear of it (not even necessarily asking for a public reversal or anything).

Macchiato said:
Let's put some things into perspective. Sonissimmo was the ruling house for decades.

A piece of info I had been asking for. ;P

Macchiato said:
Like Tellar, I know you're new to this, but it's not all about the size of your ego okay? You're backing what is essentially a key party in your nation into a corner when you know you've got Teuv simmering in the background just waiting for the right moment. Let's keep the main thing the main thing.

Well, okay, part of it is that obviously from our perspective we know Tellar isn't interested in an actual war against Sonissimmo to dice them up, certainly not pairing up with Capo. But given that Tellar has been taking pains to deescalate this as well and that no one has stabbed each other since Turn 0, the most likely time when it would have happened, it should be fairly publicly obvious that Tellar isn't interested. And we're not doing much in secret because it's not like Tellar's Intrigue is all that notable compared to Sonissimmo's. So yeah from my perspective Sonissimmo continues to be really unreasonable about this if using "security" continues to work for them (fanning their own populace in the process).

Beyond that, I guess there's also some historical data that I really need to request from you @Macchiato @OneirosTheWriter at this juncture. If Sonissimmo's actions in terms of acting alone are actually from your perspective a little reasonable, then I really need to know what kinds of things Tellar got up to in the past while Sonissimmo was ruling that would equal this in order to get some measure of balance here. Without that, it can only look like they're continuing to tantrum because they're not in charge. Was Tellar a particularly unreasonable Great House when they were leading?

FriedIce said:
I mean, Blake's actions are pretty short sighted but in this whole thing Sonissimmo are pretty clearly the wronged party. We did just overthrow them after all.

Hell no, I don't even buy that. If the ruling party getting overthrown is purely in the wrong, then that can be carried forward from whoever they overthrew in the first place. Basically, because historically it's not as if Sonissimmo has been the One True Ruler, and it seems unlikely they had really the highest crown authority ever either, I don't feel particularly sympathetic to any attempt to paint them just as the wronged party here. If they were such bad rulers that they made a takeover palatable for the others, that's on them.

---

Also of note as something tangential but very relevant to this--we still need to evaluate at the end of things how Capo is going to view any final deal and any moves we make. Yes, this is about making a deal and not just about punishment and so on, but I would view it that rolling over too much is going to signal to Capo that we're weaker than we should be and much more pliable to them as well. If we cave to Sonissimmo, what do we owe to Capo who were the ones to support us in the first place? If they weren't happy with Sonissimmo as rulers, how would they view something like Evelyn marrying a Sonissimmo? And so on. Yes, we don't want to preemptively be soft on Capo in effect by being too tough on Sonissimmo and Capo actually does have other things to worry about than just us, but this should still factor into our calculus.

Void Stalker · Aug 16, 2016

I'm sorry if I missed seeing this but was it ever asked and answered on if there was ever a ruling house besides Sonissimmo? Or for that matter how it came to be that Sonissimmo was ruling. Also what are the treaties regarding both Royals, construction and maintenance and use along with the wood from the Chiming Forests.

For what I want hashed out along with items I want at least to be looked into:
1. Acceptance that rulership has passed to Tellar as the current Symphonies of Sartier
2. The Royals are either destroyed or turned over to the Royal Navy (for the second I would want them split between their two bases)
3. Fostering agreements between our houses are setup, (and including Ethan in this, maybe use Connor as leverage to get this done)
4. Determination of the next pair to rule Sartier, maybe something like have the Great Houses be Elector Counts like the HRE or something, I think that keeping the rulership in only one house long term will cause problems as we had at the beginning but by making it for the life of a ruling pair it should keep stability for a while
5. Anti-Teuv operations and acknowledgment that Teuv is enemy number one (perhaps bring up how heavily Teuv magic the pirates are, Royal Navy and Alan can corroborate this)
6. Lay the groundwork for collaboration between the Houses (Great and Vassal), my impression is that part of the problem is the misunderstanding between Houses so more multi House efforts with Houses outside their province may ease that ignorance and thus tensions
7. With option 5 begin to establish relations with neighboring kingdoms and groups to provide a united front against Teuv aggression, the Khironex and Mempharbi are good places to start and provide good trading partners for all of Sartier
8. Begin to promote better understanding in all the Houses (including ours) about what each section of Sartier provides (I remember Hana once wondering if Sonissimmo needed Capo and Tellar, well since the Royals need the wood from our Forest there is one thing they can't do without)
9. A regular meeting maybe every two to three years between ranking members (either Symphony or Concerto) of each of the Great Houses as a way to communicate and bring up any issues (we had one of these thanks to Alana in the Turn 1 results).
10. The importance of treaties ( this depends on how the structure and ruling of Sartier was setup, was it written that Sonissimmo would always be rulers or was it just how it had been happening)

Not a complete list, but some of my thoughts currently.

Spectrum · Aug 16, 2016

Void Stalker said:
4. Determination of the next pair to rule Sartier, maybe something like have the Great Houses be Elector Counts like the HRE or something, I think that keeping the rulership in only one house long term will cause problems as we had at the beginning but by making it for the life of a ruling pair it should keep stability for a while

I did want to keep making HRE parallels in my head with Sonissimmo having lost the election but it doesn't exactly quite match. And it still doesn't really quite work for Sartier's structure with there being Vassal Houses and Minors treeing up to the big three, there just aren't enough Houses serving enough masters (or really being independent) for things to not get partisan.

Mind, reminding Sonissimmo that Capo could've been the ruling power instead of Tellar is probably something. ;X

Macchiato · Aug 16, 2016

Spectrum said:
It's not about publicly undermining or that he went rogue and did this, it's that he appears to be utterly unrepentant and doubling down and continuing to fan the flames of this action. If Melody went off and did a dumb, I would expect whoever to take her aside afterwards and point out why this is a dumb and what we have to do to salvage this. I would continue to be very unhappy if she publicly continued that behavior and made matters worse instead of at least trying to steer clear of it (not even necessarily asking for a public reversal or anything).

Funnily enough, Melody would do exactly what you're suggesting would prompt unhappiness on your part. Both Melody and Blake are not the type to back down, helped in part by their dread score and in Blake's case, the sense of moral rightness that a lot of Sonissimmo has (they're similar to House Stark in ASOIAF in this way). As for Melody, well, she's exactly that fuck you I do what I want personality who would automatically go in the opposite direction that you told her she had to go. Plus, Hamid's that asshole who left her and her mother and didn't make himself known to her until she'd gone through some serious shit as a child and teenager so if we're counting on that to hold huge amounts of weight for her listening to him, we might want to count again.

Spectrum said:
A piece of info I had been asking for. ;P

This was provided in one of the previous pages by Oneiros. I saw it before I posted so that shouldn't have been news.

Spectrum said:
So yeah from my perspective Sonissimmo continues to be really unreasonable about this if using "security" continues to work for them (fanning their own populace in the process).

Beyond that, I guess there's also some historical data that I really need to request from you @Macchiato @OneirosTheWriter at this juncture. If Sonissimmo's actions in terms of acting alone are actually from your perspective a little reasonable, then I really need to know what kinds of things Tellar got up to in the past while Sonissimmo was ruling that would equal this in order to get some measure of balance here. Without that, it can only look like they're continuing to tantrum because they're not in charge. Was Tellar a particularly unreasonable Great House when they were leading?

Hang on, how is what Sonissimmo's doing different than what Capo's probably been doing, probably since time out of mind? Every House is interested in its own security and there's a natural assumption of some level of House loyalty above a lot of things. That's why Vincennes wasn't burned to the ground when they closed ranks around Arnold, despite the evidence against him (well, among other reasons). This is not a unified nation we're talking about, despite what people from the outside may perceive, and what they actually need to be if and when Teuv gets their shit together. This is part of the challenge of this entire quest and has been from the get go. Of course they're going to be worried about their own security. That's exactly what Tellar and Capo and Vincennes and Dale and down the line have always been primarily concerned about. Oh sure, they'll mouth the words about Sartieran interest, but they're Sartieran when it's convenient; it's not their definitive identity.

So no, Tellar didn't used to behave particularly unreasonably, but that bar's not high to begin with. They certainly guarded (and continue to do so) the wood from the Chiming Forests pretty jealously, and the shock reverberating around Sartier after what the Elite Songweavers did at Nune Reef speaks to how closely some of these things were kept to their chest. And let's be clear about something, a lot of what I'm saying isn't affected by the fact that I happen to be one of the quest masters. If I was a player, I'd be saying the same things and I'd be saying them in what would admittedly be a much more incendiary and abrasive manner since I wouldn't have to watch my words as much so I don't scare people away *eyes Oneiros*. Much of what I'm basing my opinions on here is in the information that's been provided to the players; I made sure of it.

Spectrum said:
If they were such bad rulers that they made a takeover palatable for the others, that's on them.

They weren't? Avery and Hana made a big mistake each in their respective arenas, much in the way that a lot of people to new jobs do, even if they've been groomed for it. Sonissimmo's time as ruling House was largely held by Franz and Elise, their parents, who had just stepped down when the quest began. Capo and Tellar saw an opportunity and capitalised on it, which is how we're in the boat we're in now.

Void Stalker said:
I'm sorry if I missed seeing this but was it ever asked and answered on if there was ever a ruling house besides Sonissimmo? Or for that matter how it came to be that Sonissimmo was ruling.

Yes, there have been ruling Houses other than Sonissimmo, although it's been a long time. They originally came to power because they were the ones to step forward and lead, strategise, and marshal Sartier's resources to push Teuv back from their shores.

OneirosTheWriter · Aug 16, 2016

Macchiato said:
and I'd be saying them in what would admittedly be a much more incendiary and abrasive manner since I wouldn't have to watch my words as much so I don't scare people away *eyes Oneiros*.

Hi, I'm your resident Good Cop.

Spectrum · Aug 16, 2016

Macchiato said:
Funnily enough, Melody would do exactly what you're suggesting would prompt unhappiness on your part. Both Melody and Blake are not the type to back down, helped in part by their dread score and in Blake's case, the sense of moral rightness that a lot of Sonissimmo has (they're similar to House Stark in ASOIAF in this way). As for Melody, well, she's exactly that fuck you I do what I want personality who would automatically go in the opposite direction that you told her she had to go. Plus, Hamid's that asshole who left her and her mother and didn't make himself known to her until she'd gone through some serious shit as a child and teenager so if we're counting on that to hold huge amounts of weight for her listening to him, we might want to count again.

Conveniently, Melody is at least only an agent and is extraordinarily unlikely to rise above that. And she isn't a public figure either. She's a headache to be managed but we at least haven't put her in a position to do the kind of widespread damage that Blake can theoretically do just by going off the reservation.

Macchiato said:
This was provided in one of the previous pages by Oneiros. I saw it before I posted so that shouldn't have been news.

Yes, that was a bit of uncharitable snark that about how it seems to have taken 60 pages or so for that to come out, for all that it's actually relevant to the Turn 0 selections. (There were hints of it but it was unclear that there was in fact a dedicated line of succession all the way back to the last Teuv incursion.)

Macchiato said:
Hang on, how is what Sonissimmo's doing different than what Capo's probably been doing, probably since time out of mind?

Again, apologies, but without trying to be too flippant here, I don't know, can you tell me? I legitimately don't feel that we have a ton of insight into what Capo's probably been doing either (and yes yes Intrigue house) so that again is flavoring my view of this. There have been a lot of oblique mentions to how Capo didn't like Sonissimmo's rulership style and how the Houses don't get along but without something more concrete to point to I am having a hard time accurately judging severity of current events here.

Macchiato said:
Every House is interested in its own security and there's a natural assumption of some level of House loyalty above a lot of things. That's why Vincennes wasn't burned to the ground when they closed ranks around Arnold, despite the evidence against him (well, among other reasons). This is not a unified nation we're talking about, despite what people from the outside may perceive, and what they actually need to be if and when Teuv gets their shit together. This is part of the challenge of this entire quest and has been from the get go. Of course they're going to be worried about their own security. That's exactly what Tellar and Capo and Vincennes and Dale and down the line have always been primarily concerned about. Oh sure, they'll mouth the words about Sartieran interest, but they're Sartieran when it's convenient; it's not their definitive identity.

Sure, but my refutation is again there's a point past where it should be obvious that their security isn't actually an issue to where my natural response is "okay, pull the other one" as my view is that security has started to blend back into "Sonissimmo primacy". At which point this is back into a power play and not just trying to understand and mollify their position. Yes, I will certainly admit I am annoyed that Sonissimmo is dragging us into the diplomatic arena and we can't just go pull the martial trigger on them, but this whole thing seems to be an exercise in "how much is Tellar going to have to give up in order to get Sonissimmo to do the right thing" and that is personally infuriating. (Looking at things we gain, it's probably a net money loss out of best case situations even if the Tithes are reinstated and RN control comes back because of having to pay for them afterwards, and it's not like we can even do anything much with them at this juncture.)

I mean, after a certain point, when does Tellar get to pull the 'security' card themselves that Sonissimmo is going to continue to be unreasonable and undermine their power and wonder whether Sonissimmo really will fall in line when the Teuv threat fully comes to light? Heck, will they demand to be put back in charge because there is a big Teuv threat and of course they're Teuv's main enemy and the only ones suitable to lead the fight?

This kind of circles back to whether Tellar was unreasonable. How exactly has being the ruling Symphony been viewed? Are they expected to pay at least lip service and being responsible stewards of the role does involve some measure of sacrifice back on their part in return for that or on the flip side, when others are getting too aggressive is that justification for doing something about it to preserve the power of rule? (Which itself may or may not be even a concept that exists.)

Macchiato said:
They certainly guarded (and continue to do so) the wood from the Chiming Forests pretty jealously

*mutters something about Royal construction and "not jealously enough"*

Macchiato said:
They weren't? Avery and Hana made a big mistake each in their respective arenas, much in the way that a lot of people to new jobs do, even if they've been groomed for it. Sonissimmo's time as ruling House was largely held by Franz and Elise, their parents, who had just stepped down when the quest began. Capo and Tellar saw an opportunity and capitalised on it, which is how we're in the boat we're in now.

I would actually entirely judge that with what should be the enormous benefits from being the ruling house for that long, if you've screwed up enough such that the others were fed up enough to not want to let the status quo go and not want to make a play or at least back you against the other, yes you've been bad rulers. (The longer you've been in charge, the more the advantages from that should have kept piling up to strengthen your ability to stay in charge.) Extending from that, my personal point of view is that Franz and Elise couldn't have been that hot either if all it took was for Avery and Hana to make one mistake. So they were ruling for decades beforehand, that would appear to indicate to me that they were really just barely keeping things together.

veekie · Aug 16, 2016

It's really far from complicated:

Aggressive approach:
Them - Tellar and Capo are going to gang up on us! We must boost our personal power because damn, look at those Naval Songweavers, they are going to render us irrelevant and then subsume our assets.

Us - Sure, if you do that we're going to kick your ass. Also, look at the foreign boogeyman who hadn't been a problem in generations, they will destroy us all. *Insert picture of national unity against Red Scare here*

Them - They really ARE ganging up on us. Guys, pull assets away so they spread themselves thin.

This approach may win their cooperation in the short term, but it only empowers and validates their internal extremists.

Conciliatory approach:
Them - Tellar and Capo are going to gang up on us! We must boost our personal power because damn, look at those Naval Songweavers, they are going to render us irrelevant and then subsume our assets.

Us - Sure, we'd even pay you to help cover us this angle, if only you'd take the Teuv threat seriously and stop playing games.

Them - They are...uh, wat.

This approach takes the wind out of the sails of their extremists, who are of course going to still keep trying to grasp for advantage, but it sways their moderates closer to someone who really doesn't look like the threat that their internal hawks are promoting.

But that's normal. Are we not improving our own Songweavers in the background where nobody can see? Is Capo not infiltrating every court in addition to ferreting out Teuvians?

Really, consider this, on the grand scale of things, whats happens with all our internal factions having Royals?
Tellar - No benefit, no loss, we already have the Royal navy.
Capo - Benefit, gains better ships. Will assume the responsibility of paying the bills for said better ships.
Sonissimo - Benefit, regains better ships. Will assume the responsibility of paying the bills for said better ships. Already doing it whether we allow them or not.

It's aggravating because it looks like we're giving them what they want for being petty as hell, but what they want is also what we want!

Silent approach:
Them - Tellar and Capo are going to gang up on us! We must boost our personal power because damn, look at those Naval Songweavers, they are going to render us irrelevant and then subsume our assets.

Us - Sure, go ahead, I got more important things to deal with.

Them - Are they snubbing us, or is something really that important?

This approach gives up short term advantage to the Teuvians. We'd see them turn around once the Teuvians actually DO something major that we fail to block. Pros is that we need no concessions.

Cons is we let the true enemy take the first shot, and thus, make concessions where we let our enemy choose.

Spectrum · Aug 16, 2016

veekie said:
Are we not improving our own Songweavers in the background where nobody can see?

We're not really, actually.

veekie said:
This approach may win their cooperation in the short term, but it only empowers and validates their internal extremists.

If you're going to argue this, then you need to actually extend it further like you did the others and allow their reaction for when Teuv openly shows, because then the picture Tellar theoretically painted about the Teuvian threat was real and the extremists didn't have a point.

veekie said:
This approach takes the wind out of the sails of their extremists, who are of course going to still keep trying to grasp for advantage, but it sways their moderates closer to someone who really doesn't look like the threat that their internal hawks are promoting.

Or, it could sway the moderates closer to the hawks because the hawks' method actually yielded results from Tellar through the show of force. (yes, I'm aware this is contentious, because this is basically the POV that you don't negotiate with terrorists because you empower them)

veekie said:
Really, consider this, on the grand scale of things, whats happens with all our internal factions having Royals?
Tellar - No benefit, no loss, we already have the Royal navy.
Capo - Benefit, gains better ships. Will assume the responsibility of paying the bills for said better ships.
Sonissimo - Benefit, regains better ships. Will assume the responsibility of paying the bills for said better ships. Already doing it whether we allow them or not.

...?

Tellar - Doesn't actually have the Royal Navy at all (actually can't afford to pay for them), can't afford to pay for ships, so really doesn't want to get into a naval race
Capo - Currently too busy and all resources tied up anyway, not sure where you're getting their responsibility from.
Sonnissimmo - Regains better ships how? You mean the Royals who they already still control because they still own the Royal Navy? We automatically lose naval races, we just doubly lose if they build Royals, which means hello land invasion.

veekie said:
It's aggravating because it looks like we're giving them what they want for being petty as hell, but what they want is also what we want!

Nooo, what they want is certainly not necessarily what we want either (leaving aside I question your evaluation of the breakdown).

OneirosTheWriter · Aug 16, 2016

Spectrum said:
Again, apologies, but without trying to be too flippant here, I don't know, can you tell me? I legitimately don't feel that we have a ton of insight into what Capo's probably been doing either (and yes yes Intrigue house) so that again is flavoring my view of this. There have been a lot of oblique mentions to how Capo didn't like Sonissimmo's rulership style and how the Houses don't get along but without something more concrete to point to I am having a hard time accurately judging severity of current events here.

It's worth considering Sonissimmo and Capo through the prism of Atreides and Harkonnen (which makes Tellar the Ordos, I guess). Sonissimmo has the focus on the welfare of the region, the great governance, and the focus on acting with nobility, and they have a terribly nice chap from Sarba as their Spymaster. Capo has Lucas and Theresa Capo, they rule with cold steel and dread, and their spymistress is a woman who is known as the Bonekeeper of Carentan.

Like, their approach is fairly inimical to each other, so they have a long history of conflicts and clashes with each other. Also the Tarrant-Antilles border is a mild version of the Vincennes-Dale border. (Funnily enough, Timbre doesn't really have border troubles with anyone, despite sitting in the middle of the continent, they're pretty easy to get along with usually).

Capo doesn't want these chivalry types to go through their closets full of skeletons. Sonissimmo doesn't like the whole Capo outlook on life and think they only pay lipservice to chivalry, while Capo thinks they're way too married to an ideal.

Spectrum said:
I mean, after a certain point, when does Tellar get to pull the 'security' card themselves that Sonissimmo is going to continue to be unreasonable and undermine their power and wonder whether Sonissimmo really will fall in line when the Teuv threat fully comes to light? Heck, will they demand to be put back in charge because there is a big Teuv threat and of course they're Teuv's main enemy and the only ones suitable to lead the fight?

That 'security card' was basically how Tellar justified the takeover, after Sonissimmo's new regime stumbled with Tranquility and riled them up good, causing Tranquility to start ramping up on the most convenient part of Sartier. However, as it stands now, your position is very secure in the eyes of the other Houses, because Capo is standing with you. If the Teuv matter in Carentan gets worse then Tellar can start playing the security card.

Regarding asking to be put back in charge, Sonissimmo knows they don't have a chance that an appeal like that would work because it requires Capo assent, which wouldn't be forthcoming. You'd have to end up in some kind of nightmare scenario where the Symphony of Hana and Avery is broken, Blake takes command, finds the scariest Executive he can, and they decide it is better to go to war with Tellar while Capo burns, and the depth of misfortune and misadventure required for that to happen is Abyssal Trench-esque. They want to fight Teuv, and will fight alongside you if you can give them some sort of guarantee that they aren't in danger of getting carved up.

Now, you know you have no plans to carve up their lands between you and Capo, but Sonissimmo got totally blindsided by the take-over, so their paranoia is now in full swing, and their faith in their intel reports that no such invasion is planned is very low.

OneirosTheWriter · Aug 16, 2016

Spectrum said:
We're not really, actually.

Wait, do you mean on an individual level, or in terms of doing research options regarding all Songweavers generally?

veekie · Aug 16, 2016

Spectrum said:
Nooo, what they want is certainly not necessarily what we want either (leaving aside I question your evaluation of the breakdown).

We're going to need stronger everyone for Teuv. Same reason why we want stronger minors

Spectrum said:
Or, it could sway the moderates closer to the hawks because the hawks' method actually yielded results from Tellar through the show of force. (yes, I'm aware this is contentious, because this is basically the POV that you don't negotiate with terrorists because you empower them)

Historically, getting their root campaign goals(here being the sense of threat and marginalization) met is one of the fastest ways to dismantle these groups, as they now like the status quo fine.

Whereas invariably, the harder you rebuff them the more influential they get as people grow fearful and set you as the Other.

I can accept ignoring them and letting their tempers cool from beating uselessly at a wall, but ANY action against them only confirms them.

Katreus · Aug 16, 2016

OneirosTheWriter said:
Like, their approach is fairly inimical to each other, so they have a long history of conflicts and clashes with each other.

TBH, I was under the impression that these ancient treaties re: professional slots and the whole Royal Navy and Army were a lot more important and sacrosanct than they apparently are. Whether various Houses dislike each other due to personality or style clashes seems rather mundane and even the border skirmishes seem about the normal level of politicking for Sartier.

As in: you play your little games with other Houses and send your army men to make a point - but that's just Sartier. You don't play games with the Sartier forces. Sort of like all the 'games' that the Orlais houses play with each other in Dragon Age. Except with more army men marching around and less bards.

Edit: (Or so it seemed in DA:O. Upon reading the wiki, apparently, DA:I had a lot more backstabbing. Wow.)

They want to fight Teuv, and will fight alongside you if you can give them some sort of guarantee that they aren't in danger of getting carved up.

Cripes. No wonder Hana keeps throwing Ethan at Evelyn. I guess there really isn't much else any House can realistically offer to soothe paranoia. Although, aren't we already sending our secondary heir (Gregory?) to Sonissimo for fostering every half year? Isn't that an indication that we're not really interested in starting border wars?

Macchiato · Aug 17, 2016

For the record, I wanted to do something else but Oneiros said I couldn't. I think it's obvious why more people like him than me

Spectrum said:
Conveniently, Melody is at least only an agent and is extraordinarily unlikely to rise above that. And she isn't a public figure either. She's a headache to be managed but we at least haven't put her in a position to do the kind of widespread damage that Blake can theoretically do just by going off the reservation.

Yeah, you're losing sight of why Melody had been cited as an example to begin with. So we'll do Clara Winter instead, because she'd be similar. Wife of one of the ruling pair, prone to bouts of dangerous, not necessarily approved things and who is notably headstrong. Indus is not the one with the pants in that relationship. Still okay with wearing what she does, no matter how much it's a case of her not doing what she's told?

Spectrum said:
Yes, that was a bit of uncharitable snark that about how it seems to have taken 60 pages or so for that to come out, for all that it's actually relevant to the Turn 0 selections. (There were hints of it but it was unclear that there was in fact a dedicated line of succession all the way back to the last Teuv incursion.)

My understanding of how quests are run is that the players also need to know/learn to ask the right questions rather than waiting for it all to be given to them. So maybe the question should be how it seems to have taken 60 pages or so for the players to have realised they needed to ask this question and its relevancy.

Spectrum said:
Sure, but my refutation is again there's a point past where it should be obvious that their security isn't actually an issue to where my natural response is "okay, pull the other one" as my view is that security has started to blend back into "Sonissimmo primacy". At which point this is back into a power play and not just trying to understand and mollify their position. Yes, I will certainly admit I am annoyed that Sonissimmo is dragging us into the diplomatic arena and we can't just go pull the martial trigger on them, but this whole thing seems to be an exercise in "how much is Tellar going to have to give up in order to get Sonissimmo to do the right thing" and that is personally infuriating. (Looking at things we gain, it's probably a net money loss out of best case situations even if the Tithes are reinstated and RN control comes back because of having to pay for them afterwards, and it's not like we can even do anything much with them at this juncture.)

I mean, after a certain point, when does Tellar get to pull the 'security' card themselves that Sonissimmo is going to continue to be unreasonable and undermine their power and wonder whether Sonissimmo really will fall in line when the Teuv threat fully comes to light? Heck, will they demand to be put back in charge because there is a big Teuv threat and of course they're Teuv's main enemy and the only ones suitable to lead the fight?

If you're determined to look for all the things that Sonissimmo isn't doing and not looking for the things that they are doing, of course it's going to look like all they're trying to consolidate power. But you guys've been asking Sonissimmo as a House and Etela as a region to toe a hard line pretty much from day dot and I personally find that to be pretty unreasonable. And then when they don't, suddenly the skin is so thin so that everything's an insult and a threat. Power play? Primacy? Please. They're trying to come to terms with this reality, and that includes ironing out the kinks within their own structure and getting everyone on board with that as well. Changes and adaptations on this scale don't happen overnight; they take years to wash out. And if you think that's bullshit, I'd suggest you take a look at the impact senior leadership changes and philosophies have on governments over the course of history, not to mention in big companies.

You talk about not having enough information, but you have all the information about Sonissimmo and what drives them, as well as their MO as a house and their values. And the suppositions to be made from them having been a chivalric ruling House whose primary focus is on Teuv would seem to point to them being respectful of the power structure there. The only people who are worrying about how solid Tellar's hold on their position as ruling House is Tellar.

Spectrum said:
I would actually entirely judge that with what should be the enormous benefits from being the ruling house for that long, if you've screwed up enough such that the others were fed up enough to not want to let the status quo go and not want to make a play or at least back you against the other, yes you've been bad rulers. (The longer you've been in charge, the more the advantages from that should have kept piling up to strengthen your ability to stay in charge.) Extending from that, my personal point of view is that Franz and Elise couldn't have been that hot either if all it took was for Avery and Hana to make one mistake. So they were ruling for decades beforehand, that would appear to indicate to me that they were really just barely keeping things together.

Ruling a nation does not occur in an echo chamber and it certainly isn't anywhere close to being straightforward or remotely controllable in most situations. Capo's fed Tellar lines as much as anyone else has to get them to where they are now, and the assumption that Tellar is definitely in the right for their action and was fully justified is lovely but naive. The phrase "unreliable narrator" should be a clue. And I've definitely proclaimed my love for unreliable narrators previously.

veekie said:
It's really far from complicated[...]

I wish I could multi-rate some posts because that was a really interesting way of framing the situation while also being funny. It'd be maybe like, hug, and funny?

Katreus said:
TBH, I was under the impression that these ancient treaties re: professional slots and the whole Royal Navy and Army were a lot more important and sacrosanct than they apparently are. Whether various Houses dislike each other due to personality or style clashes seems rather mundane and even the border skirmishes seem about the normal level of politicking for Sartier.

As in: you play your little games with other Houses and send your army men to make a point - but that's just Sartier. You don't play games with the Sartier forces. Sort of like all the 'games' that the Orlais houses play with each other in Dragon Age. Except with more army men marching around and less bards.

This sounds about right to me? Without consulting with my co-conspirator.

Katreus said:
Cripes. No wonder Hana keeps throwing Ethan at Evelyn. I guess there really isn't much else any House can realistically offer to soothe paranoia. Although, aren't we already sending our secondary heir (Gregory?) to Sonissimo for fostering every half year? Isn't that an indication that we're not really interested in starting border wars?

Yes, but fostering ties are different than marital ties. I mean look at Evelyn and Hana having fostered with each other and what's come out of that arrangement.

OneirosTheWriter · Aug 17, 2016

As an aside, when it came to conceding the Royal Army and Navy, Sonissimmo would have looked at the Navy, then looked at Tellar and said, "...do they even into boats?" This whole Tellar Does Triremes business is a new development.

Macchiato said:
My understanding of how quests are run is that the players also need to know/learn to ask the right questions rather than waiting for it all to be given to them. So maybe the question should be how it seems to have taken 60 pages or so for the players to have realised they needed to ask this question and its relevancy.

That one is on me, I've been meaning to generate a proper answer to that for a while <.<

Spectrum · Aug 17, 2016

OneirosTheWriter said:
Wait, do you mean on an individual level, or in terms of doing research options regarding all Songweavers generally?

Well, the assertion was that we were secretly improving all of our Songweavers. Which, when it comes down to it...yeah, we aren't. We're either doing so openly or we're not doing so at all right now.

veekie said:
We're going to need stronger everyone for Teuv. Same reason why we want stronger minors

That is...not the same thing at all. It would be closer to say we want stronger Vassal Houses, because we've apparently fought wars against our own Vassals not that long ago, but stronger Minors aren't exactly in danger of usurping us any day soon. I mean, we were even warned early on about needing to find the balance between strengthening others and falling behind enough that we lose rule, I don't understand why people are trying to paper over that in the current conflict.

veekie said:
Historically, getting their root campaign goals(here being the sense of threat and marginalization) met is one of the fastest ways to dismantle these groups, as they now like the status quo fine.

Whereas invariably, the harder you rebuff them the more influential they get as people grow fearful and set you as the Other.

I can accept ignoring them and letting their tempers cool from beating uselessly at a wall, but ANY action against them only confirms them.

Historically, you're going to need to provide some cites for that and some careful analysis for how those situations match up to here, because from my perspective whenever more marginal groups find a strategy that works, they don't retire or get softer, they instead latch onto it as a means of gathering more power and results for themselves.

Katreus said:
TBH, I was under the impression that these ancient treaties re: professional slots and the whole Royal Navy and Army were a lot more important and sacrosanct than they apparently are. Whether various Houses dislike each other due to personality or style clashes seems rather mundane and even the border skirmishes seem about the normal level of politicking for Sartier.

As in: you play your little games with other Houses and send your army men to make a point - but that's just Sartier. You don't play games with the Sartier forces. Sort of like all the 'games' that the Orlais houses play with each other in Dragon Age. Except with more army men marching around and less bards.

Yes, pretty much, 100% agree that was my interpretation as well.

Macchiato said:
Yeah, you're losing sight of why Melody had been cited as an example to begin with. So we'll do Clara Winter instead, because she'd be similar. Wife of one of the ruling pair, prone to bouts of dangerous, not necessarily approved things and who is notably headstrong. Indus is not the one with the pants in that relationship. Still okay with wearing what she does, no matter how much it's a case of her not doing what she's told?

Who said anything about wearing what she does? The whole point was that no one should be viewed as good or competent enough to remain in a position where they do things the rulers don't approve of in a high, public level. I originally said Blake should have been controlled, and if he's the type that can't be, my position is that he probably should've never been in that position. I don't have a lot of use for subordinates, no matter how competent they are or how related they are to me, who won't at least follow the party line.

Macchiato said:
If you're determined to look for all the things that Sonissimmo isn't doing and not looking for the things that they are doing, of course it's going to look like all they're trying to consolidate power. But you guys've been asking Sonissimmo as a House and Etela as a region to toe a hard line pretty much from day dot and I personally find that to be pretty unreasonable. And then when they don't, suddenly the skin is so thin so that everything's an insult and a threat. Power play? Primacy? Please. They're trying to come to terms with this reality, and that includes ironing out the kinks within their own structure and getting everyone on board with that as well. Changes and adaptations on this scale don't happen overnight; they take years to wash out. And if you think that's bullshit, I'd suggest you take a look at the impact senior leadership changes and philosophies have on governments over the course of history, not to mention in big companies.

Yes, that's bullshit, and this is just Sonissimmo apologism.

What hard line have we been asking them to toe? We haven't gone after them to reinstate the Tithe, we haven't gone after them about their direct control of the Royal Navy or the fact that they've purged off the leadership so they have indirect control as well, is there even anything else? Just about the only thing handed over seems to be the Royal Army, which isn't nothing, but I find that a far cry from what this being painted as.

Senior leadership changes tend to result in purges of the other side after they occur purely so this sort of thing doesn't happen.

Macchiato said:
You talk about not having enough information, but you have all the information about Sonissimmo and what drives them, as well as their MO as a house and their values. And the suppositions to be made from them having been a chivalric ruling House whose primary focus is on Teuv would seem to point to them being respectful of the power structure there. The only people who are worrying about how solid Tellar's hold on their position as ruling House is Tellar.

Yes, and? That's the whole point of your spiel about security, no? If Tellar isn't going to be thinking about their hold on their position, no one else is. I also don't see how you're trying to play up their chivalry as some kind of be-all end-all when there was literally just the example of that in Lana Antilles, who we were told is now still just going to be extra Chivalrous in her attempts to stab Vincennes and that's about as good we're ever going to get.

Macchiato said:
Ruling a nation does not occur in an echo chamber and it certainly isn't anywhere close to being straightforward or remotely controllable in most situations. Capo's fed Tellar lines as much as anyone else has to get them to where they are now, and the assumption that Tellar is definitely in the right for their action and was fully justified is lovely but naive. The phrase "unreliable narrator" should be a clue. And I've definitely proclaimed my love for unreliable narrators previously.

That is more than a little convenient that everything you're now coming out and saying is to paint Sonissimmo as the glorious noble victim House and poor Tellar for being Capo's patsy in going along with this and boohoo they're really the big villains here.

If Sonissimmo is supposed to have been the diplomatic and chivalrous house, then if they were anything resembling historically prestigious, competent, and trusted then at the time Tellar seems like they should have said "yes, this is a fuck up and we're deeply unhappy about this, but we'll trust you for now still and give you the opportunity to make this right". (Maybe that's what happens in the alternate verse where Sonissimmo is chosen on Turn 0.)

Macchiato · Aug 17, 2016

Spectrum said:
Yes, that's bullshit, and this is just Sonissimmo apologism. [...]
Senior leadership changes tend to result in purges of the other side after they occur purely so this sort of thing doesn't happen.

*shrug* Think what you like.

Spectrum said:
Yes, and? That's the whole point of your spiel about security, no? If Tellar isn't going to be thinking about their hold on their position, no one else is. I also don't see how you're trying to play up their chivalry as some kind of be-all end-all when there was literally just the example of that in Lana Antilles, who we were told is now still just going to be extra Chivalrous in her attempts to stab Vincennes and that's about as good we're ever going to get.

You're looking at this in micro, which is fascinating but not accurate to what people are in reality. People are not just their stats. People are the environments they're raised in, the values they're brought up with, the stability and support and teachings from those around them. Someone from any given House's interpretation of "chivalry" isn't going to be the same as the next, and particularly not between and a minor House and a great House. Just like two people can be INTP (Meyers-Briggs, look it up if you don't know it), but be vastly different in how that manifests itself. Most terrorists think they're doing the right thing, too, and that they're behaving honourably. That doesn't guarantee that their cause is actually right or honourable.

Spectrum said:
That is more than a little convenient that everything you're now coming out and saying is to paint Sonissimmo as the glorious noble victim House and poor Tellar for being Capo's patsy in going along with this and boohoo they're really the big villains here.

You know what, you can say whatever shit you'd like to about Sonissimmo's intentions and how justified Tellar is in what they're doing, but don't you fucking dare imply that we conveniently changed what the history of this thing was before we started it, not even if you might have been joking. Don't faux-apologise, and don't emote at me about this. I will happily wear a LOT of shit because there's that much flexibility in what's being said, and I know I'm being inflammatory in how I present my points, but that's crossing a line. I am deadly fucking serious.

Oneiros and I have been clear from the beginning as to what the history of Sonissimmo and its rulership was. It's part of why the chargen vote was ultimately between Sonissimmo and Tellar to begin with. But to cite a lot of the voters, the prospect of whee magic and fixer upper house was too tempting for the majority of the voters so Tellar won. We've been nothing but consistent about the origins of those Houses. Where's it's gone, and is going, is a different story, but where it started was in a story that we wrote together and what Sonissimmo and Tellar are has remained unchanged through that. If you didn't choose to interpret those signs and read it that way, that's fine. But trying to say that we changed it to suddenly suit our purposes says more about you than about the truth of the thing.

Spectrum said:
If Sonissimmo is supposed to have been the diplomatic and chivalrous house, then if they were anything resembling historically prestigious, competent, and trusted then at the time Tellar seems like they should have said "yes, this is a fuck up and we're deeply unhappy about this, but we'll trust you for now still and give you the opportunity to make this right". (Maybe that's what happens in the alternate verse where Sonissimmo is chosen on Turn 0.)

Project what you like on this. I'm not one of the players who's going to have to deal with the consequences in the long run. Oneiros did say all of this was intended as a helpful nudge. I may have presented my points as if I was a player, but that was intended to be a hint in a helpful direction. I'll note you're the only one getting really up and questioning the veracity of what I'm saying. There's room for interpretation in what we presented, but I'd suggest by digging in and trying to argue with the helpful nudge... well, if that's the case, you're probably past the point where even if we said anything, you'd believe it. You can argue me and Oneiros are two separate people as a reason to question what I'm saying. But we still live in the same house, talk to each other constantly through the day, and check each others' posts and ideas. He may not like how I get my point across, but he doesn't disagree with my points on their merits. Probably important to remember that distinction. That's the last I'll be adding to this "discussion".

Good luck.

Katreus · Aug 17, 2016

Macchiato said:
This sounds about right to me? Without consulting with my co-conspirator.

Right. I feel like this is the source of the misunderstanding. Is breaking this treaty - or, at least, bending it to the breaking point - a big deal or not?

I think we were all under the impression that it was a huge deal, and that's why people are so aggro about it. If it is a big deal, it really does and should shift the balance of power in a gigantic way to the point where it almost has to result in a swift resolution (here in the interlude) or guaranteed skirmishing. It means that every treaty should be considered not worth the paper they're on because if the big, important, sacrosanct ones can be crossed, there's no reason why the little ones couldn't. It also means that despite how we can understand why certain factions in Sonissimo came to support this action, they're 100% in the wrong for playing games with the Sartier forces.

It would be like one party playing funding games with the US military forces while NATO countries are being invaded. Perhaps there is a reason for doing so but the reaction is just so out of the pale that any reason is unreasonable.

But the way Sonissimo is reacting in these interludes and your reactions to player reactions seems to indicate this is small potatoes on the level of House skirmishing. Sending Evelyn here was the apparent equivalent of sending Carmen for any of the In Your Shoes? actions. Nice - but not super important. I mean, that's fine too. It doesn't make sense to me, but players can just re-calibrate their expectations as to what is going on.

Yes, but fostering ties are different than marital ties. I mean look at Evelyn and Hana having fostered with each other and what's come out of that arrangement.

Evelyn being sent to negotiate and putting herself in Sonissimo hands for the duration instead of starting at economic embargoes and probably worse as a first reaction? (Dependent on whether this is a big deal or not.)

wingstrike96 · Aug 17, 2016

[X] Suggest that maybe removing the exclusivity of Royals is a good idea, but not one that can be done unilaterally.

The best part of this is that Capo would have to agree to make it work, so they have to kiss and make up first.

Zoxabels · Aug 17, 2016

While sonissimo breaking the treaty on the royals is bad, if we can suceed to focus them on the teuv threat and either give away the royals or destroy them + something else to show contrition in exchange for a marital alliance? Im all for that because to me it seems like the players are Kinda forgetting teuv is the main enemy. Im considering the etela/Harper houses to be like Scandinavia with the houses as swedeN/Finland/norway and teuv as the Russian bear.

OneirosTheWriter · Aug 17, 2016

Katreus said:
But the way Sonissimo is reacting in these interludes and your reactions to player reactions seems to indicate this is small potatoes on the level of House skirmishing. Sending Evelyn here was the apparent equivalent of sending Carmen for any of the In Your Shoes? actions. Nice - but not super important. I mean, that's fine too. It doesn't make sense to me, but players can just re-calibrate their expectations as to what is going on.

It's an arrival of enough portent to get Hana and Ethan out to personally greet Evelyn with a hundred-strong honour guard!

I know that the precise scale of this is difficult to convey, and that as a lot of the people that you are meeting are Sonissimmo who are trying to downplay the situation it is even more confusing, but a) it is a big deal, b) if it was anything except Sonissimmo and the Arsenal, then ultimatums would have been available options, c) Sonissimmo has done nothing to interfere with the Royal Army, and neither they nor their vassals have started any recruiting that would contravene the professional troops limit.

If they had co-opted serving Royal Navy ships ... well to be blunt Evelyn would probably be arriving to find parts of the city burning down as Sonissimmo fails to track down the Capo agents responsible. Using the Arsenal to build Sonissimmo Royals is something that will need an answer, but it was a calculated move on Blake's part. If you can't get an answer to it via the interlude then violence becomes an acceptable solution.

I think I'm having a hard time conveying the right level of seriousness for the offence in these posts. Basically, it's something that demands a response ... but at the same time, between the available leverage that Tellar has on Sonissimmo, and the recent history, this isn't something where you can simply slap down an unruly vassal.

In a large part, you're looking to reestablish the adherence to the treaties - making them worth the paper they're written on. In effect, renegotiating the decades-old system of treaties to reflect the new era. (Which will require Capo assent as well, but, free tip, both Alana Capo and the spymistress they call the Bonekeeper of Carentan are in town ;D )

veekie · Aug 17, 2016

OneirosTheWriter said:
In a large part, you're looking to reestablish the adherence to the treaties - making them worth the paper they're written on. In effect, renegotiating the decades-old system of treaties to reflect the new era. (Which will require Capo assent as well, but, free tip, both Alana Capo and the spymistress they call the Bonekeeper of Carentan are in town ;D )

So basically, reminding them of the BENEFITS of united Sartier. Because so far they had honestly seen little of that, only the costs they pay for it.

*Vaguely reminded of Brexit*

So their people are butthurt and saying rude things about our mom. Our people are butthurt about their saying rude things about our mom and are considering which of their ancestors are best to insult.
Number of people thinking objectively is vanishingly small.

Katreus · Aug 17, 2016

OK, so it is a NATO-level treaty, but it's Germany skirting the lines and not actually breaking it. I was starting to get the sinking feeling we'd sent our best diplomat to tut-tut disapprovingly at Japan during the International Convention for the Regulation of Whaling.

Katreus · Aug 17, 2016

veekie said:
So basically, reminding them of the BENEFITS of united Sartier. Because so far they had honestly seen little of that, only the costs they pay for it.

*Vaguely reminded of Brexit*

So their people are butthurt and saying rude things about our mom. Our people are butthurt about their saying rude things about our mom and are considering which of their ancestors are best to insult.
Number of people thinking objectively is vanishingly small.

Look, we're all thinking of how to get them to remember that the Royal Navy is Sartierian and so is the Arsenal. I'm just really unconvinced that your chosen action to do so will actually do so.

What exactly does

[ ] Suggest that maybe removing the exclusivity of Royals is a good idea, but not one that can be done unilaterally.

accomplish? This seems to:

- legitimize Blake's actions in the first (because it's not wrong in the goal to get the Arsenal to do commissions - it turns this violation into a process violation, which is not a big deal comparatively)

- weakens the Royal Navy (so long as there's only one place where Royals can be built under the control of the RN, every ship built to a House is one less ship for the Sartierian RN)

- weakens Sartieran unity (where before you would need to work with the RN to provide the flagships such that everyone is reminded no House can stand alone against external foes, every side of the Island can now function - or should be able to function - on their own, naval protection wise)

- starts a naval arms race (who can buy the most Royals now? if there were sea raids before, I hope you like sea raids with Royals now! also, Tellar cannot into economics and was, until recently, not into ships either)

- calls into question the RN's neutrality, which is the foundation of these treaties (because it frames it as RN picking sides rather than RN being badgered into submission by Sonissimo)

I mean, we don't allow states to have their own battleships from the USN because external defense is a national issue. Sartierian RN and RA is specifically set up to be separate and apolitical, not a combined defense force of every House contributing portions of the military. Why, exactly, is this any different?

drake_azathoth · Aug 17, 2016

What I suggest is outlining the following:

a) We are not particularly frightened by a few Royals being painted in Sonissimo colors, because we know that the people of Sonissimo are honorable and would not truly consider something like preying upon Tellar and Capo ships like filthy pirates. A Sonissimo ship remains a shield against the enemies of the land, and thus we see it as such.

b) All the same, it is a disturbing trend. Sonissimo has always been a bulwark in the Royal Navy, but if they plan to make it a purely Sonissimo purview, or appear as such, Tellar and Capo will have to withdraw support from it in response- their honor will not allow them to cower under the protection of another House.

c) This means Tellar Songweavers will not serve on a purely Sonissimo ship, and if the Royal Navy becomes a Sonissimo institution Capo and Tellar captains may not cooperate as well with an admiral who is an admiral of the Sonissimo navy rather than the Royal Navy, however wise it may be to do so. The logical move for Tellar and Capo to build their own navies in response will show poorer returns for the investments of each House's efforts than a combined effort does.

d) The trend is particularly disheartening in light of the recent show of cooperation and effectiveness the Royal Navy and the combined forces made in sweeping the isles clear of pirate scum. After such a display of the benefits of cooperation, a move toward isolation and towards the loss of our combined strengths seem a shame. It may salve Sonissimo's pride, but at the cost of the Royal Navy's effectiveness. With our combined efforts we can continue to thrash any pirates or foreign powers that appear and move toward a new era of trade and prosperity, apart that prosperity is uncertain.

e) Sonissimo does have legitimate grievances and we understand the show of control over the Navy was a response to those grievances. Part of the reason we are here is to talk with their leadership now that tempers have cooled, recognize Sonissimo's accomplishments, and chart an equitable path into the future that wins glory and honor for us all.

Spectrum · Aug 17, 2016

Macchiato said:
You know what, you can say whatever shit you'd like to about Sonissimmo's intentions and how justified Tellar is in what they're doing, but don't you fucking dare imply that we conveniently changed what the history of this thing was before we started it, not even if you might have been joking. Don't faux-apologise, and don't emote at me about this. I will happily wear a LOT of shit because there's that much flexibility in what's being said, and I know I'm being inflammatory in how I present my points, but that's crossing a line. I am deadly fucking serious.

Oneiros and I have been clear from the beginning as to what the history of Sonissimmo and its rulership was. It's part of why the chargen vote was ultimately between Sonissimmo and Tellar to begin with. But to cite a lot of the voters, the prospect of whee magic and fixer upper house was too tempting for the majority of the voters so Tellar won. We've been nothing but consistent about the origins of those Houses. Where's it's gone, and is going, is a different story, but where it started was in a story that we wrote together and what Sonissimmo and Tellar are has remained unchanged through that. If you didn't choose to interpret those signs and read it that way, that's fine. But trying to say that we changed it to suddenly suit our purposes says more about you than about the truth of the thing.

That is...not exactly what I intended, no. That was my salt expressing itself that these things are coming to light just as the knives are maybe starting to come out of their sheaths and not several turns ago. If you want to say that's on us as players, fine I'll own that, but that doesn't change that had I known these things I would have submitted...perhaps not drastically different turn plans, but definitely different ones for at least a few actions over the past turns. (Now what specifically would have been chosen I have no idea without deeply thinking on it even harder. My imp of the perverse would say that if it is apparently viewed as already pushing Sonissimmo around to have gotten to this point, then perhaps we should have taken action on our side to at least earn that reaction, no matter how nonproductive that would have actually been at this juncture.)

Macchiato said:
Project what you like on this. I'm not one of the players who's going to have to deal with the consequences in the long run. Oneiros did say all of this was intended as a helpful nudge. I may have presented my points as if I was a player, but that was intended to be a hint in a helpful direction. I'll note you're the only one getting really up and questioning the veracity of what I'm saying. There's room for interpretation in what we presented, but I'd suggest by digging in and trying to argue with the helpful nudge... well, if that's the case, you're probably past the point where even if we said anything, you'd believe it. You can argue me and Oneiros are two separate people as a reason to question what I'm saying. But we still live in the same house, talk to each other constantly through the day, and check each others' posts and ideas. He may not like how I get my point across, but he doesn't disagree with my points on their merits. Probably important to remember that distinction. That's the last I'll be adding to this "discussion".

Good luck.

Okay, no, first off I want to say that I'm a little insulted that you're projecting onto me any hint that you think I'm arguing with you solely because you're not Oneiros. From my perspective, the issue is centered entirely on how you have chosen to present your points as a player with an opinion. What was that supposed to be? A legitimate opinion by a theoretical player who only knew information the rest of us should have? Then yes, I'm arguing against that. An actual perfect analysis given all public information where you were wearing your "I am the GM sit down and shut up" hat? Then why did you present it that way? You want to tell me that we're wrong and going down the wrong path, why not say just that? This is definitely muddled by a few of your statements where you say 'personally' and so on. Is that intended to be analysis from an equally biased 'player' perspective or are you actually just telling us how it is and how you intend to slap us as a GM? (And, like, I asked for clarification and background on what is actually hard line on how we've been treating Sonissimmo prior to this point that you 'personally' say is unreasonable. You just blew me off. What am I supposed to do with this?)

---

@Katreus You've been pretty cogent so far, have you decided to refine or otherwise change your current vote at this juncture?
@drake_azathoth What are your thoughts on how to accomplish those within the framework we've been given? I feel that the proposal by Katreus to limit our personal micromanagement and let the magic of IC Elite! Diplomacy probably has merit, even if it risks missing a point we would like to make...at the benefit of mitigating the risks of any option we want to write in really being boneheaded.

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