Rock the Cradle: A cultivation story

[Tylansimov]

I was very shocked when I read that the seer won, and still don't quite get Why on that one. It's not too bad and hey it helped us make our omni technique.

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IMO:
- Hands
- Copying our mom
- Frankly picking Beti over the dreamseekers is the outlier, and I think it won because everybody liked Life/Death and refining. Otherwise we've been mostly consistent about speccing into Dream and weird sensory stuff.

 

[KittyEmpress]

I think what you're describing might be what we could've done with the Highgold Tree remnant, which would've given us an advantage up to Highgold?

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No, these are separate things. Higher tier remnants are useful because their knowledge of their Paths is deeper and you can learn and study from your Remnant and how They did things in life.

But eating your Remnant as a sort of spiritual pill is a separate thing. Higher tier probably helps here too, but it's how most cultivators improve within the gold tier according to the books. Yerin refused to do so for a very long time because her Remnant was her dead teacher and she didn't want to eat him.

Lindon didn't have a Remnant so it wasn't an option. He had to take another path (hunger and pills).

You don't have to eat your Remnant to rank up. They just are extremely useful to do so with, if they're a good match for your path.

 

[Wiggy]

Ocular methods?

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Oracular*

I've been seeing people make that error a lot lol.

 

[ArcanaVitae]

IMO:
- Hands
- Copying our mom
- Frankly picking Beti over the dreamseekers is the outlier, and I think it won because everybody liked Life/Death and refining. Otherwise we've been mostly consistent about speccing into Dream and weird sensory stuff.

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That's true earlier the focus on esoteric and sensory stuff has been a decently large part of Keras's character, the Jade Cycling and the career paths are the exceptions to that. Keras choosing Death and Refining is still something I'm happy about though because they're both very interesting topics. Plus not being solely reliant upon the Luxe Clan is nice.

No, these are separate things. Higher tier remnants are useful because their knowledge of their Paths is deeper and you can learn and study from your Remnant and how They did things in life.

But eating your Remnant as a sort of spiritual pill is a separate thing. Higher tier probably helps here too, but it's how most cultivators improve within the gold tier according to the books. Yerin refused to do so for a very long time because her Remnant was her dead teacher and she didn't want to eat him.

Lindon didn't have a Remnant so it wasn't an option. He had to take another path (hunger and pills).

You don't have to eat your Remnant to rank up. They just are extremely useful to do so with, if they're a good match for your path.

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It basically helps you learn skills and knowledge. I'm hoping that even if Keras isn't a dream path it'll help them learn Oracle stuff and how to leverage their senses.

Oracular*

I've been seeing people make that error a lot lol.

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I copied it from what Farzana said when commenting Keras should've been made to learn it. Oracular does seem to be more accurate in general now that I think about it though.

 

[Karnax626]

No, these are separate things. Higher tier remnants are useful because their knowledge of their Paths is deeper and you can learn and study from your Remnant and how They did things in life.

But eating your Remnant as a sort of spiritual pill is a separate thing. Higher tier probably helps here too, but it's how most cultivators improve within the gold tier according to the books. Yerin refused to do so for a very long time because her Remnant was her dead teacher and she didn't want to eat him.

Lindon didn't have a Remnant so it wasn't an option. He had to take another path (hunger and pills).

You don't have to eat your Remnant to rank up. They just are extremely useful to do so with, if they're a good match for your path.

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No yeah, I think we are talking about the same thing. Eating your remnant helps you integrate their experiences, which is how the Life tree remnant would've given us a headstart on our Highgold techniques. The same applied to a lesser extent with the other three remnants we could've picked because they were all Lowgold.

 

[veekie]

Maybe we could invest into weird shit combat drugs. Single use doping bullshit making it a pain to fight Keras seems fun.

 

[Wiggy]

Maybe we could invest into weird shit combat drugs. Single use doping bullshit making it a pain to fight Keras seems fun.

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Yeah, we didn't get the specialty for that but I definitely want us to do that some.

 

[KittyEmpress]

Maybe we could invest into weird shit combat drugs. Single use doping bullshit making it a pain to fight Keras seems fun.

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We could have specialized in that with the death bird! The death bird had so many useful facets! I shall curse the day forevermore that we decided 'more hands' was more important than combat boosting drugs, a boost to our death capabilities and understanding, and wings!

Amusingly I didn't originally care much for the iron body stuff; it was all kind of meh but had we gone for our Father's iron body we would be so happy with our current path as a refiner. A lot of the votes against it were 'well how many pills or elixirs are we likely to get'. And now we are making as many as possible, and making those just way stronger would have been such a good synergy.

Hindsight and all that.

 

[Wiggy]

We could have specialized in that with the death bird! The death bird had so many useful facets! I shall curse the day forevermore that we decided 'more hands' was more important than combat boosting drugs, a boost to our death capabilities and understanding, and wings!

Amusingly I didn't originally care much for the iron body stuff; but had we gone for our Father's iron body we would be so happy with our current path as a refiner. A lot of the votes against it were 'well how many pills or elixirs are we likely to get'. And now we are making as many as possible, and making those just way stronger would have been such a good synergy.

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Yeah, as much as I like the fate hands, death bird would have been really cool in a lot of ways.

 

[KittyEmpress]

Yeah, as much as I like the fate hands, death bird would have been really cool in a lot of ways.

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I honestly think it's the hands being chosen that makes me most meh about the choice. The third eye sounded really cool and good and like it focused on the interesting part of the remnant choice (esoteric knowledge and oracle stuff). And we picked the hands that are just extra hands ultimately.

Like they're not even fate hands. They're just hands. They move like our normal hands (or do our hair), it's not like they move according to the future or something.

 

[veekie]

I mean, weird shit drugs can be used for combat doping as well. Just as likely to have pills that explode into tentacles tho

 

[Wiggy]

Like they're not even fate hands. They're just hands. They move like our normal hands (or do our hair), it's not like they move according to the future or something.

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I mean, they've literally performed foreshadowing on at least one occasion by grabbing a book on nightworm venom and they perfectly placed themselves to catch something the Underlady was going to throw to Keras. They've definitely got some future stuff going on. I would be very unsurprised if we could train them up to block attacks using future vision or something.

 

[unObservant]

I mean, they've literally performed foreshadowing on at least one occasion by grabbing a book on nightworm venom and they perfectly placed themselves to catch something the Underlady was going to throw to Keras. They've definitely got some future stuff going on. I would be very unsurprised if we could train them up to block attacks using future vision or something.

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Another big one was that scene where Mom helped us stabilize our leaking Dream Madra, where she specifically synergized her ability to see what could be with Keras's ability to choose what would be in order to guide us along whichever path we picked.

In general, I've been really anticipating whenever we reach higher and more conceptual advancement tiers and their purpose as "The Hands That Weave Fate" starts coming into play more prominently. Of the three Goldsign choices (any of which probably served a shared meta-purpose of justifying our Fate's weirdness in-universe and enabling us to continue voting as normal even after Etaja ends up departing/ sacrificing himself/ etc), it's the Hands that looked the most directly positioned to grow into manipulating Fate ourself. Whether that's big-picture future-influencing mostly-background things, or more active applications like studying how Etaja's Bracelet is attached to us for future replication or inspiration (he "lightly bound it to Keras's Fate"); or drawing upon the Hands' partially-insubstantial nature to literally reach inside of something and touch its Fate; or even something as simple as grabbing someone's hand and guiding them somewhere, knowingly or unknowingly using that act to conceptually include them in whatever Big Choice we're making at the time.

 

[ArcanaVitae]

Maybe we could invest into weird shit combat drugs. Single use doping bullshit making it a pain to fight Keras seems fun.

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Yeah, we didn't get the specialty for that but I definitely want us to do that some.

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Keras may not specialize in it but that doesn't mean that they can't make combat drugs

We could have specialized in that with the death bird! The death bird had so many useful facets! I shall curse the day forevermore that we decided 'more hands' was more important than combat boosting drugs, a boost to our death capabilities and understanding, and wings!

Amusingly I didn't originally care much for the iron body stuff; it was all kind of meh but had we gone for our Father's iron body we would be so happy with our current path as a refiner. A lot of the votes against it were 'well how many pills or elixirs are we likely to get'. And now we are making as many as possible, and making those just way stronger would have been such a good synergy.

Hindsight and all that.

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The Crow symbolism would've been nice to lean into. Having pop's Iron Body would've worked well with Refining. Keras hasn't really used their refining to help their advancement a lot due to sharing with their hometown.

I mean, weird shit drugs can be used for combat doping as well. Just as likely to have pills that explode into tentacles tho

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We haven't really seen the esoteric effects refining and I'd like to see more of it.

I mean, they've literally performed foreshadowing on at least one occasion by grabbing a book on nightworm venom and they perfectly placed themselves to catch something the Underlady was going to throw to Keras. They've definitely got some future stuff going on. I would be very unsurprised if we could train them up to block attacks using future vision or something.

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Keras 100% has future stuff going on with them but it's subtle stuff. But I imagine training can be used to enhance it.

Another big one was that scene where Mom helped us stabilize our leaking Dream Madra, where she specifically synergized her ability to see what could be with Keras's ability to choose what would be in order to guide us along whichever path we picked.

In general, I've been really anticipating whenever we reach higher and more conceptual advancement tiers and their purpose as "The Hands That Weave Fate" starts coming into play more prominently. Of the three Goldsign choices (any of which probably served a shared meta-purpose of justifying our Fate's weirdness in-universe and enabling us to continue voting as normal even after Etaja ends up departing/ sacrificing himself/ etc), it's the Hands that looked the most directly positioned to grow into manipulating Fate ourself. Whether that's big-picture future-influencing mostly-background things, or more active applications like studying how Etaja's Bracelet is attached to us for future replication or inspiration (he "lightly bound it to Keras's Fate"); or drawing upon the Hands' partially-insubstantial nature to literally reach inside of something and touch its Fate; or even something as simple as grabbing someone's hand and guiding them somewhere, knowingly or unknowingly using that act to conceptually include them in whatever Big Choice we're making at the time.

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Keras's Fate weirdness started out due to Etaja and The Goldsigns just enhanced and leaned into it. Manipulating Fate is a very interesting path of development that I'd like to look into.

 

[Wiggy]

Honestly, between how ideally set up for support Keras is and the whole, 'Hands that choose fate' thing, I can picture some Lord level version of Keras just overlooking an entire battlefield and giving little nudges all throughout it to weave the perfect outcome for their side. A foot snagged with a vine here, an enemy given just a little tunnel vision there, a warrior getting a second wind as they're revitalized somewhere else. Just a hundred little pushes to guide thing to their ideal conclusion. It'd fit the coordination build people are going for too.

 

[Tylansimov]

Honestly, between how ideally set up for support Keras is and the whole, 'Hands that choose fate' thing, I can picture some Lord level version of Keras just overlooking an entire battlefield and giving little nudges all throughout it to weave the perfect outcome for their side. A foot snagged with a vine here, an enemy given just a little tunnel vision there, a warrior getting a second wind as they're revitalized somewhere else. Just a hundred little pushes to guide thing to their ideal conclusion. It'd fit the coordination build people are going for too.

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Would be a great fit for the Oracle icon. [Waybound spoilers] Claudia Aurelius does a similar "battlefield oversight" thing to great effect in Waybound.

 

[ArcanaVitae]

Honestly, between how ideally set up for support Keras is and the whole, 'Hands that choose fate' thing, I can picture some Lord level version of Keras just overlooking an entire battlefield and giving little nudges all throughout it to weave the perfect outcome for their side. A foot snagged with a vine here, an enemy given just a little tunnel vision there, a warrior getting a second wind as they're revitalized somewhere else. Just a hundred little pushes to guide thing to their ideal conclusion. It'd fit the coordination build people are going for too.

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Battlefield buffing, debuffing, harrying, coordination and support seems like something Keras would be very good at.

Would be a great fit for the Oracle icon. [Waybound spoilers] Claudia Aurelius does a similar "battlefield oversight" thing to great effect in Waybound.

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Oracle Icon is one of the Icons I would like Keras to have eventually but that's a longer term concern and almost certainly not going to be the firs Icon Keras manifests. But I imagine if Keras spent enough time learning Oracle stuff it would be possible to manifest such an Icon.

 

[Wiggy]

But I imagine if Keras spent enough time learning Oracle stuff it would be possible to manifest such an Icon.

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Even if Keras hasn't always been an oracle, their life has certainly been shaped by their mother being one from early childhood, and as they develop into an oracle in their own right, I imagine they'd qualify pretty easily for it yeah. Probably be easier if our path was properly dream or something, but our life/death cycle probably has enough of a time vibe to help. Doubt we're gonna be grabbing any icons early unless Etaja does a lot of heavy lifting helping us align with the Way, but I bet he'd be all for helping out to see what it does to Keras lol.

 

[ArcanaVitae]

Even if Keras hasn't always been an oracle, their life has certainly been shaped by their mother being one from early childhood, and as they develop into an oracle in their own right, I imagine they'd qualify pretty easily for it yeah. Probably be easier if our path was properly dream or something, but our life/death cycle probably has enough of a time vibe to help. Doubt we're gonna be grabbing any icons early unless Etaja does a lot of heavy lifting helping us align with the Way, but I bet he'd be all for helping out to see what it does to Keras lol.

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It hasn't just been Keras's own actions that would align them with Oracle it's also their mother's oracle stuff having such an impact on them.

Honestly I think that Keras is likely going to become a Sage while an Underlords. Like Lindon did. It's mostly due to being someone who's very in tune with the mindset needed to become a Sage, they're making their own path even if they have help and they're looking into deeply understanding concepts like Life and Death. I think that Keras will become a Sage over a Herald due to that and if they play their cards right they'd end up as a Sage as an Underlord and if not I can see them getting it just after the Uncrowned King Tournament.

 

[KittyEmpress]

I could see Keras becoming a Sage early, off the back of 'has a voice in her head that already knows about manipulating the Way', but that would rely on us meeting some Sages in advance so that we can learn about what a Sage is and Etaja can examine it. I don't think he'd suspect on us being able to form a connection to the Way here, unless he's seen that it's possible.

I think Etaja is more likely to be capable of showing us how to become a Herald without reference. Like how he went 'oh, so you have to bathe yourself in this soulfire, and probably do something regarding your self actualization' from just looking briefly at someone trying to reach Underlord, I could see him going 'oh, and then if you perfectly fuse Body and Spirit into One Entity, you'd improve yourself even more'. Herald is a pretty natural seeming evolution of Cradle's advancement system:

First you put aura into your body to strengthen your spirit.
Then you use your strengthened spirit to strengthen your body.
Then you use your strengthened body to create a denser trap inside your spirit.
Then you trap a spirit inside of your body, changing your body structure with spiritual features as you absorb its spiritual power.
Then you purify that spiritual power into its densest form, and open up a spiritual pocket.
Then you manifest spiritual power in that spiritual pocket, and use it to baptize your body in a series of moments of Self Actualization.

That is Copper -> Iron -> Jade -> Gold -> Lord
Spirit -> Body -> Spirit -> Body -> Spirit -> Body

Which sounds more logical as the next step for someone who hasn't seen how things are done;

You harmonize body and spirit into a singular force, removing distinction between the two, allowing you to act with both as equals. (Herald)
You connect yourself to a mythical type of power through connecting your personal story and experiences to that of a heavenly System of power, allowing you to utilize power from Outside of the system of Cradle. (Sage)

I think the Herald path kind of makes sense in terms of Logical Power Progressions, as otherwise Cradle cultivation is a lot of Spirit -> Body -> Spirit -> Body -> Spirit one reinforcing the other between each true stage. Sage path seems a little more... esoteric and odd. But Etaja sussing out that 'eventually you need to harmonize them both' from that pattern? Seems likely.

Though I guess this depends on how much outsider species cultivation equivalent caps off with similar. If 'connect yourself to the Way' is something most cultures do it makes sense for Sage to come kind of easily

 

[Puffy]

I could see Keras becoming a Sage early, off the back of 'has a voice in her head that already knows about manipulating the Way', but that would rely on us meeting some Sages in advance so that we can learn about what a Sage is and Etaja can examine it. I don't think he'd suspect on us being able to form a connection to the Way here, unless he's seen that it's possible.

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It's not really a matter of knowing it's possible. Keras simply doesn't have the required Willpower just yet to achieve this. Unless something drastic changes in the near future, I don't see Keras getting the required Willpower for it.

 

[KittyEmpress]

It's not really a matter of knowing it's possible. Keras simply doesn't have the required Willpower just yet to achieve this. Unless something drastic changes in the near future, I don't see Keras getting the required Willpower for it.

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Oh, when I say early I mean 'Underlord/Overlord sage', not 'Sage in Gold'. I don't think anyone who is talking about Keras as a sage is thinking they'll manage it that early.

 

[Tylansimov]

I could see Keras becoming a Sage early, off the back of 'has a voice in her head that already knows about manipulating the Way', but that would rely on us meeting some Sages in advance so that we can learn about what a Sage is and Etaja can examine it. I don't think he'd suspect on us being able to form a connection to the Way here, unless he's seen that it's possible.

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This seems a little odd. AFAIK all Iterations used Way manipulation, you have to in order to ascend. The specific form that takes varies (I believe there's word of god that Icons are Cradle-only), but Way manipulation is universal.

So Etaja, who can use the Way, seems much more suited to teaching Keras how to use the Way. Compared to teaching them about a Cradle-specific advancement.

 

[KittyEmpress]

This seems a little odd. AFAIK all Iterations used Way manipulation, you have to in order to ascend. The specific form that takes varies (I believe there's word of god that Icons are Cradle-only), but Way manipulation is universal.

So Etaja, who can use the Way, seems much more suited to teaching Keras how to use the Way. Compared to teaching them about a Cradle-specific advancement.

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Sure, but Icons are Cradle-only and unless we meet someone who has a connection to one, Etaja making the connection and helping us manifest an icon seems less likely to me.

This is why I said, specifically, that without us having examples of either I could see Herald being easier to suss out.

 

[SinisterPorpoise]

I could see Keras becoming a Sage early, off the back of 'has a voice in her head that already knows about manipulating the Way', but that would rely on us meeting some Sages in advance so that we can learn about what a Sage is and Etaja can examine it. I don't think he'd suspect on us being able to form a connection to the Way here, unless he's seen that it's possible.

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On one hand yeah.
On the other Cheng has already brought up the Forest Sage once and might go into a deeper description of them when Heaven's Facade is completed, and Etaja is still confused about Remnants.