Rock the Cradle: A cultivation story

Ah, so one of the things you regret not being involved early enough for is the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception option.

Yes, this is an intentionally unfair way to describe what I was presenting, shhhh

I mean I didn't lament that for this specific reason before, but yeah I did actually think it was sad no one latched onto the ability to see people's weak points. All the talk about seeing injuries and what not meant nothing compared to being able to detect our enemies weaknesses (super)naturally!

And honestly 'better at what it already does' isn't much of a limiting factor when the technique already does 4 different things.

I agree here at least. It's a good technique as it is. It is an all around general boost to everything, which is a little 'jack of all trades' but a general boost is very useful. Making it a better general boost isn't a bad idea.

But seeing people's moves before they make them is cooler.
 
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While our mental boosts and potential combat precog are fun, there *is* a point where it doesn't matter how mentally enhance we are if our body or madra reserves can't execute whatever plan we make with our extra time to think. There's some people in Cradle that are terrifyingly fast or strong or can just nuke an entire grid square like Sophara. Our enforcer technique is more for strength and toughness than speed, but it does help us all around, and I'd like to keep pushing that over adding more esoteric aspects.
 
I mean, we just (recently) voted to master a fighting style based on mental enhancement and careful execution, over all else. Whose main weakness was pointed out to us as 'those who are faster than us'. Speed boosts are, thus, probably more valuable to focus on than Strength/Toughness.

Like I said, I'm not saying 'current version +' is a bad idea. Just that it's not as cool.
 
I think I'd rather leave healing for verdant valley and just amp up the physical boost we get from the enforcer technique than mix in more aspects to it.
That's fair, focusing on the mental parts of Field's Strength would likely be better. And training Keras's healing skill could also be done to help out healing.

Lindon did that with his dragon claw move right, drawing in destruction and fire aura to charge up his Forged claw?
That's one of the inspirations for the idea.

If we wanted to try to upgrade our Enforcer technique beyond just 'flat better at something it already does' I think a fun upgrade to pursue with the Dream side would be some sort of combat prescience to play off the light seer themes Keras has. The ability to predict what someone will do a second or two before they do it.

Would fit well with their fighting style I think.
That would mix very well with Keras's fighting style and let Keras delve more into Oracle and Dream stuff without it being a dedicated part of their path.

Charity had an enforcer technique that ehanced her mind so that she's better able to pick up on tells.

It's far enough from what our enforcer technique does now that it seems like it'd be difficult to achieve. With regards to the mental image perhaps we could do something with how a farmer needs to predict the weather and the course of seasons if they don't want their crops to fail? Or more personally I'm sure there's some sacred plants that have strict enough requirements to grow that we could pull inspiration from having to predict their needs.
Social buffs would be very useful. Honestly makes me think about making a technique to read how people feel using Life madra.

I think we can sort of justify it with the stuff we already have. It already enhances our coordination, first via bullet time juicing and more stable-y through the introduction of Dream. And coordination is how we process and respond to sensory info. In a way this would be a development of us improving a response to an odd type sensory info (the very slight future).

So what I'm saying is; future sight wielding deathknight Keras.
That would be very awesome, sure we won't have Runes/Scripts and a Spear but it would still be a damn good Odin impression which is awesome. Though it may be possible for Keras to loose an eye and then get a Forged one. But I would totally be down for future sight + death knight stuff to make Keras even more of a terror.

To be honest, I don't see why not. That hadn't been in my notes as a potential option, but I think it's going in there now. It'd need to either be a development of the Verdant Valley or of Dandelion Rain, though, you're right, it doesn't really fit to work as-is without development. Some of the other suggestions discussed had already been in there.
It would likely need some work.

There's the Beast King. Apparently he reached Herald by contracting with various powerful beasts. Kotai Taien had a contracted beast partner for the nine seconds he appeared in "Skysworn". I'm not totally clear on if the Sandvipers had a contracted partner or not, but they might also count.
Contract and Beast taming is totally something that can work given the Beast King and other people, it would take investment as everything else does. Though honestly it's more likely Keras would develop a Garden of Sacred Plants.

It's also an Enforcer move, but yes.

Within Rock the Cradle, that's the central thing we've seen Venkata do twice; her "make a giant brilliant rainbow" move is Forger/Ruler.
Keras could totally take inspiration.

Ah, so one of the things you regret not being involved early enough for is the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception option.

Yes, this is an intentionally unfair way to describe what I was presenting, shhhh.
I imagine if Keras hard invested into it and got a technique and possibly a Death Icon it would work that way.

My assumption would be that that kind of precognition (for Keras at least) would be limited to Underlord at the earliest.
We see Dross do so in canon when Lindon was Truegold, but that required a lot of stuff to come together. For Keras if we'd picked the seers instead of Cheng/Beti/Refining we probably could've managed it earlier, but not as we are now.
And honestly 'better at what it already does' isn't much of a limiting factor when the technique already does 4 different things.
Combat Precognition is some very scary stuff, Keras is likely going to be forced to learn some Oracle stuff by Venkenta so it's possible. It's also possible Keras will get more of an edge for it through mastering their remanent and it's knowledge.

I figured when our techniques were advanced enough we'd be able to pull off combination moves, maybe with soulfire to help nudge things along?
At higher levels and with soulfire the hard lines become very blury.

I mean I didn't lament that for this specific reason before, but yeah I did actually think it was sad no one latched onto the ability to see people's weak points. All the talk about seeing injuries and what not meant nothing compared to being able to detect our enemies weaknesses (super)naturally!
It would be useful for healing and combat.

I agree here at least. It's a good technique as it is. It is an all around general boost to everything, which is a little 'jack of all trades' but a general boost is very useful. Making it a better general boost isn't a bad idea.

But seeing people's moves before they make them is cooler.
Boosting Keras's mind and body and just going deeper into that is a good path. I'm thinking that Keras could possibly create a sensory technique and pull more off the Remanent to help.

While our mental boosts and potential combat precog are fun, there *is* a point where it doesn't matter how mentally enhance we are if our body or madra reserves can't execute whatever plan we make with our extra time to think. There's some people in Cradle that are terrifyingly fast or strong or can just nuke an entire grid square like Sophara. Our enforcer technique is more for strength and toughness than speed, but it does help us all around, and I'd like to keep pushing that over adding more esoteric aspects.
Speed is a weakness of Keras's fighting style.

I mean, we just (recently) voted to master a fighting style based on mental enhancement and careful execution, over all else. Whose main weakness was pointed out to us as 'those who are faster than us'. Speed boosts are, thus, probably more valuable to focus on than Strength/Toughness.

Like I said, I'm not saying 'current version +' is a bad idea. Just that it's not as cool.
Boosting speed would be very useful and having it something boosted by Field's Strength would be useful.
 
My own two cents would be that unifying verdant valley and dessicated valley, as our sister has, seems like a very fruitful endeavor. Especially if we can master it to a degree that we're not just switching between the two quickly but manifesting both aspects of the technique at once. Something like using the life and death to feed into each other in a loop and hyper accelerate healing by killing whatever we don't like inside it.

It would also be very anime to leave a tiny grave of blackened earth surrounded by a giant field of flowers made from an enemies drained life force.
 
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But seeing people's moves before they make them is cooler.
Going harder on the mental enhancement of the technique is the play I agree with that. A lot of people use generic body enhancement enforcer techs with a little spice to give it some flavour and for Keras the mental boost is the flavour. I do think in this specific example of a technique though going all in on the reaction speed would be more in line with where Keras is going. We chose against being an oracle so I don't think it makes sense to start reaching into that space

Keras has incredibly fine tuned senses combined with absurd reaction speeds that can allow them to look at a twitch of a finger and movement of madra and immediately read the action and counter it. That would be the plan anyway.

On a more general note I'm gonna state that I think Keras physical stats are probably fine as is. A jade cycling plus a technique boosting strength and toughness is more than enough investment honestly. Speed seems pretty solid too. I just think stamina is where it's at. The way Keras can put all of their techniques except Field's Strength (which is the kind of enforcer technique built for long term use anyway) through the madra efficiency boost of saint's palm makes every bit of stamina last even longer relatively for Keras. If we want to keep up the enforcer technique while spamming clinging vines and dandelion rain, while charging up or maintaining a ruler technique we'll need as much reserves as we can get.
 
On a more general note I'm gonna state that I think Keras physical stats are probably fine as is. A jade cycling plus a technique boosting strength and toughness is more than enough investment honestly. Speed seems pretty solid too. I just think stamina is where it's at.

We should be trying to find any 'cheat' to increase our stats we can, no matter the stat, IMO. Rare elixir recipes, ancient treasures, extra special teachers, anything and everything is of value. But I personally feel there is definitely a clear hierarchy of value to them. I wouldn't say 'no' to a boost to any of them, but I'd probably take 1 boost to Coordination over 2 boosts to strength.

Coordination > Speed = Stamina >>> Strength > Toughness is about where I'd put them.

Coordination is the key to our whole strategy - we can use more techniques than most people, while still focusing on and reacting to their own moves. We are at our core a bit of a trickster-fighter, luring enemies into openings and mistakes and taking advantage of them.

Speed is explicitly the one thing we are weak against - people who are too fast for us to react to are people our expert coordination doesn't matter against. If we're weak against speedsters, we just need to be the fastest one in the room.

Stamina is core to us being able to take full advantage of our multiple techniques that can be utilized to force those openings. The better our stamina, the better for our long term viability in a fight - especially if we are doing stuff like in fight healing.


Strength is our ability to end fights with a decisive blow - especially since our current decisive move is an axe to the insert body part. We want to be strong enough to have our blows we land hurt, but I wouldn't sacrifice anything for more strength. Especially if we wanna go more in on stuff like dessicated valley or another Drain type move.

Toughness is super important, and not getting taken down is the most important thing in a fight. But the fact that we are a healer able to use in combat healing to keep ourselves up and running around, turning serious injuries into much lesser means that the value of 'not getting hurt when hit' is lower. Especially since Keras seems capable of knowing which attacks they're capable of taking or not.


Our Jade Cycling technique is pretty funny because it boosts our two least important stats - it keeps them on par with most people at our advancement, without us needing to really focus on it. But it's also sort of a waste in a way; it's a cycling technique that keeps us average in stuff that isn't super important to our current build, instead of being a big buff on our current build like it could have been.

In some other universe there's a muscle Keras who has A rank strength and toughness at lowgold.
 
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We should be trying to find any 'cheat' to increase our stats we can, no matter the stat, IMO. Rare elixir recipes, ancient treasures, extra special teachers, anything and everything is of value. But I personally feel there is definitely a clear hierarchy of value to them. I wouldn't say 'no' to a boost to any of them, but I'd probably take 1 boost to Coordination over 2 boosts to strength.

Coordination > Speed = Stamina >>> Strength > Toughness is about where I'd put them.

Coordination is the key to our whole strategy - we can use more techniques than most people, while still focusing on and reacting to their own moves. We are at our core a bit of a trickster-fighter, luring enemies into openings and mistakes and taking advantage of them.

Speed is explicitly the one thing we are weak against - people who are too fast for us to react to are people our expert coordination doesn't matter against. If we're weak against speedsters, we just need to be the fastest one in the room.

Stamina is core to us being able to take full advantage of our multiple techniques that can be utilized to force those openings. The better our stamina, the better for our long term viability in a fight - especially if we are doing stuff like in fight healing.


Strength is our ability to end fights with a decisive blow - especially since our current decisive move is an axe to the insert body part. We want to be strong enough to have our blows we land hurt, but I wouldn't sacrifice anything for more strength. Especially if we wanna go more in on stuff like dessicated valley or another Drain type move.

Toughness is super important, and not getting taken down is the most important thing in a fight. But the fact that we are a healer able to use in combat healing to keep ourselves up and running around, turning serious injuries into much lesser means that the value of 'not getting hurt when hit' is lower. Especially since Keras seems capable of knowing which attacks she's capable of taking or not.


Our Jade Cycling technique is pretty funny because it boosts our two least important stats - it keeps them on par with most people at our advancement, without us needing to really focus on it. But it's also sort of a waste in a way; it's a cycling technique that keeps us average in stuff that isn't super important to our current build, instead of being a big buff on our current build like it could have been.

In some other universe there's a muscle Keras who has A rank strength and toughness at lowgold.
My main reason to not value speed as highly is definitely partly the fault of the Jade cycling being kinda just boosting stats we don't particularly like. I think we're too rounded on raising weaknesses rather than sharpening strengths but I've always been of the opinion it's more interesting if the main character has good and bad matchups they have to overcome with creativity and grit. Though I suppose this is a cultivation story where you just become godlike at most things.

I also kinda love the matchup between speed versus preempting as a personal bias.

At the beginning of the quest I was absolutely a meathead advocate to take advantage of Field's Strength but at this point we've fallen into the Eithan and Lindon coordination and stamina meta so I suppose that's where we're going. Sacred artists like Yerin are definitely the strength meta and she's fucking terrifying. I'm more worried about facing her than any other possible competitor in the tournament honestly.

I would absolutely rate speed as more important than strength or toughness though.

By the way Keras' pronouns are they/them.
 
I weep for the world that could have been with max toughness Keras wrapped in constantly regenerating livingwood armor shrugging off every attempt to attack them as they wade through their opponents best attempts to hurt them to bring their axe to bear.
 
I weep for the world that could have been with max toughness Keras wrapped in constantly regenerating livingwood armor shrugging off every attempt to attack them as they wade through their opponents best attempts to hurt them to bring their axe to bear.

People saw 'our dad is the strongest guy around because no one can even scratch him' and watched him tank a hit from a gold without flinching and said 'nah, I'm good', sadly.

It's not technically too late to go back to that, but I don't think we should.

I think we're too rounded on raising weaknesses rather than sharpening strengths

I agree here in a way.

But I'm more focused on the technique side here. We turned Fields Strength from a strength/toughness boost into a strength/toughness/coordination boost and then into a strength/toughness/coordination/speed omniboost. It probably would have been a stronger technique if we went less broad with it, like said above 'I can have attacks bounce off my face' level their father has.

Unfortunately it's too late to change our Jade cycling and it's too late to change our fields strength (and kind of a waste to not utilize it) so Keras as jack of all trades seems to be here to stay.
 
My own two cents would be that unifying verdant valley and dessicated valley, as our sister has, seems like a very fruitful endeavor. Especially if we can master it to a degree that we're not just switching between the two quickly but manifesting both aspects of the technique at once. Something like using the life and death to feed into each other in a loop and hyper accelerate healing by killing whatever we don't like inside it.

It would also be very anime to leave a tiny grave of blackened earth surrounded by a giant field of flowers made from an enemies drained life force.
Unifying those two techniques would be very interesting and I can see that being the path to a realization like what Lindon had for his Void Icon and for how his three Madra types worked together. It would as mentioned also be cinematic as hell.

Going harder on the mental enhancement of the technique is the play I agree with that. A lot of people use generic body enhancement enforcer techs with a little spice to give it some flavour and for Keras the mental boost is the flavour. I do think in this specific example of a technique though going all in on the reaction speed would be more in line with where Keras is going. We chose against being an oracle so I don't think it makes sense to start reaching into that space

Keras has incredibly fine tuned senses combined with absurd reaction speeds that can allow them to look at a twitch of a finger and movement of madra and immediately read the action and counter it. That would be the plan anyway.

On a more general note I'm gonna state that I think Keras physical stats are probably fine as is. A jade cycling plus a technique boosting strength and toughness is more than enough investment honestly. Speed seems pretty solid too. I just think stamina is where it's at. The way Keras can put all of their techniques except Field's Strength (which is the kind of enforcer technique built for long term use anyway) through the madra efficiency boost of saint's palm makes every bit of stamina last even longer relatively for Keras. If we want to keep up the enforcer technique while spamming clinging vines and dandelion rain, while charging up or maintaining a ruler technique we'll need as much reserves as we can get.
I think that going deeper into the mental enhancement elements of it is likely not just because it'll be voted for but due to needing to master your Remnant and it's knowledge if you want to advance. Increasing reaction speed would a an interesting way to take it. While Keras's stats in general are above average for their level only their Coordination is really absurd for a Lowgold with the others being great and the ones increased by Cycling being average. Increasing Stamina next is what I'd like to do because it's pretty much always followed a bit behind Coordination.

We should be trying to find any 'cheat' to increase our stats we can, no matter the stat, IMO. Rare elixir recipes, ancient treasures, extra special teachers, anything and everything is of value. But I personally feel there is definitely a clear hierarchy of value to them. I wouldn't say 'no' to a boost to any of them, but I'd probably take 1 boost to Coordination over 2 boosts to strength.

Coordination > Speed = Stamina >>> Strength > Toughness is about where I'd put them.

Coordination is the key to our whole strategy - we can use more techniques than most people, while still focusing on and reacting to their own moves. We are at our core a bit of a trickster-fighter, luring enemies into openings and mistakes and taking advantage of them.

Speed is explicitly the one thing we are weak against - people who are too fast for us to react to are people our expert coordination doesn't matter against. If we're weak against speedsters, we just need to be the fastest one in the room.

Stamina is core to us being able to take full advantage of our multiple techniques that can be utilized to force those openings. The better our stamina, the better for our long term viability in a fight - especially if we are doing stuff like in fight healing.


Strength is our ability to end fights with a decisive blow - especially since our current decisive move is an axe to the insert body part. We want to be strong enough to have our blows we land hurt, but I wouldn't sacrifice anything for more strength. Especially if we wanna go more in on stuff like dessicated valley or another Drain type move.

Toughness is super important, and not getting taken down is the most important thing in a fight. But the fact that we are a healer able to use in combat healing to keep ourselves up and running around, turning serious injuries into much lesser means that the value of 'not getting hurt when hit' is lower. Especially since Keras seems capable of knowing which attacks they're capable of taking or not.


Our Jade Cycling technique is pretty funny because it boosts our two least important stats - it keeps them on par with most people at our advancement, without us needing to really focus on it. But it's also sort of a waste in a way; it's a cycling technique that keeps us average in stuff that isn't super important to our current build, instead of being a big buff on our current build like it could have been.

In some other universe there's a muscle Keras who has A rank strength and toughness at lowgold.
Cheats to help Keras is a good path, Elixirs, treasures, teachers, training from hell, insane battles. Keras so far has gone for a very generalist distribution of stats and it's worked out pretty well for them so far but if we're going to specialize in one stat then specalizing in Coordination is the way to go. I'm kinda regretting that the Cycling increases stats instead of senses but it is what it is.

My main reason to not value speed as highly is definitely partly the fault of the Jade cycling being kinda just boosting stats we don't particularly like. I think we're too rounded on raising weaknesses rather than sharpening strengths but I've always been of the opinion it's more interesting if the main character has good and bad matchups they have to overcome with creativity and grit. Though I suppose this is a cultivation story where you just become godlike at most things.

I also kinda love the matchup between speed versus preempting as a personal bias.

At the beginning of the quest I was absolutely a meathead advocate to take advantage of Field's Strength but at this point we've fallen into the Eithan and Lindon coordination and stamina meta so I suppose that's where we're going. Sacred artists like Yerin are definitely the strength meta and she's fucking terrifying. I'm more worried about facing her than any other possible competitor in the tournament honestly.

I would absolutely rate speed as more important than strength or toughness though.

By the way Keras' pronouns are they/them.
We've focused on raising weaknesses and so far it's worked pretty well for Keras but it hasn't given them teeth to punch way beyond their level yet. The fact that skillsets, creativity, mindset, and circumstance very much matter for fighting is something that's awesome. Keras to me seems to be doing the same coordination and stamina meta as Lindon and Eithan it's just that they're not hard specializing in it and are keeping things equal.

I weep for the world that could have been with max toughness Keras wrapped in constantly regenerating livingwood armor shrugging off every attempt to attack them as they wade through their opponents best attempts to hurt them to bring their axe to bear.
That would've been so awesome an nigh unkillable fighter with regenerating armor and a healing factor would've been terrifying.

People saw 'our dad is the strongest guy around because no one can even scratch him' and watched him tank a hit from a gold without flinching and said 'nah, I'm good', sadly.

It's not technically too late to go back to that, but I don't think we should.
Tanking is a valid strategy to win. It's just that Keras so their dad get wrecked by poisons and assassins and had the lesson hammered into their head that anything can die or be brought down.

I agree here in a way.

But I'm more focused on the technique side here. We turned Fields Strength from a strength/toughness boost into a strength/toughness/coordination boost and then into a strength/toughness/coordination/speed omniboost. It probably would have been a stronger technique if we went less broad with it, like said above 'I can have attacks bounce off my face' level their father has.

Unfortunately it's too late to change our Jade cycling and it's too late to change our fields strength (and kind of a waste to not utilize it) so Keras as jack of all trades seems to be here to stay.
I agree that increasing Keras's technique skill is a great path of development both because it tends to help stats but also becasue getting more impressive techniques makes Keras more potent. Making Field's Strength into an omniboost and then just increasing it's abilities seems like a great idea and it fits with Keras's approach to being a generalist when it comes to stats. Keras has dedicated enough of their build to being a Jack of All Trades that it's a smart move to just continue doing so, it's totally possible to deviate but the foundations for Jack of All Trades has been layed.
 
People saw 'our dad is the strongest guy around because no one can even scratch him' and watched him tank a hit from a gold without flinching and said 'nah, I'm good', sadly.
Unfortunately I think tanking just didn't have cool votes. "Life/Death terminator that never stops coming and heals anything you do to them" is cool as fuck.

But at low levels, I think we leaned into coordination because people wanted to copy Eithan's battlefield awareness and we had already specced a bit into unusual senses and we got a Ruler/Forger body and so on. Each individual choice was small but it snowballed because I don't think any of the votes signposted "we could've been the terminator".

It's a bit of shame, because it's not really a specialty that exists much in the Cradle series. Outside of the Akura armor, most high level fighters are pretty precise fighters, not really oonga boonga. Even Fury and Northstrider are more STR builds than CON builds.
 
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Unfortunately I think tanking just isn't very cool. "Life/Death terminator that never stops coming and heals anything you do to them" is cool as fuck.

But at low levels, I think we leaned into coordination because people wanted to copy Eithan's battlefield awareness and we had already specced a bit into unusual senses and we got a Ruler/Forger body and so on. Each individual choice was small but it snowballed because I don't think any of the votes signposted "we could've been the terminator".

It's a bit of shame, because it's not really a specialty that exists much in the Cradle series. Outside of the Akura armor, most high level fighters are pretty precise fighters, not really oonga boonga. Even Fury and Northstrider are more STR builds than CON builds.
I'm still in favor of Forging a Death armor which would still be very impressive tanking wise but it's not a CON specialized build. I don't think that we consciously choose to mimic Eithan because if that's the case we'd have gotten the Jade Sense Cycling, we more went with a Jack of All Trades build with a Coordination and then Stamina being the highest. Techniques where mostly learned from the family path, adapted to add death or made to fill a gap.
 
I weep for the world that could have been with max toughness Keras wrapped in constantly regenerating livingwood armor shrugging off every attempt to attack them as they wade through their opponents best attempts to hurt them to bring their axe to bear.
Understandable, yeah; though even if it's not Keras acting as a juggernaut alone, we seem to be setting up for Beti to be capable of performing pretty much that same role with us.

On Beti's side of the bond we've got her main specialty of massively Enforcing the durability and power of her bark and vines, her expansive Madra reserves, and her sheer difference in form from the humanoid opponents most people train to defeat. She also provides a zone of safety for Keras to operate from, whether that be directly in her branches or to a slightly lesser degree from anywhere within the reach of her many and speedy vines. Then we've got Keras acting as support; puzzling out strategies and the specific nature of enemy Techniques with a genius on-call to doublecheck their work, using their advanced and accelerated senses to give Beti incoming dangers and vine-targeting suggestions at the speed of thought through their bond, personally harrying enemies that could handle either the vines or an opponent but not one seamlessly making openings for the other. And of course, even if anything does get through the kill-zone of powerful vines and hardened defense to damage Beti, Keras'd be right there and immediately healing her - no matter whether they're up in her branches or fighting nearby at the time thanks to their ability to heal at a distance and incredible coordination, and with probably even more effectiveness than they normally get thanks to her plantlike body being more suitable for our Path than the animal-healing it's mostly been used for.


Plus, there's the pair's other specialties that might be come into play on a battlefield outside of that core synergy - like, maybe Beti ends up making use of her capacity as a Refining material producer, and by the time any of this talk actually becomes relevant she's found some simple and fast products that can be mixed up on the fly or kept stored for later, giving her options to spray acidic/ sticky/ slippery/ blinding/ fire-suppressing/ etc liquids over swathes of ground or opponents as required.

Or like Keras keeping on throwing out debilitating Techniques from their perch for Beti to capitalize on - Clinging Vines to hold someone in place at just the wrong moment, larger Desiccated Valleys acting to weaken and distract over time and potentially even feed that Life back into us with further mastery, Verdant Valley might grow surrounding plantlife into something miserable for humans to travel through but which poses no obstacle for Beti, or even find direct offensive use by 'healing' an enemy from afar in ways that are very much not conductive to their continued health. Plus, of course, there's Dandelion Rain - which when used normally would find fertile metaphorical ground in all the blindspots opened up by people focusing on the big obvious tree, but could also be physically handed over to one of Beti's vines for either a vine-strike that's got an added source of damage or an explosive projectile that's effectively just been launched at incredible speeds by a massive and sentient sling. ...Much the same could be said of just about any rock Beti picks up off the ground, admittedly, and that'd absolutely be a solid and negligible-cost ranged option for her to get into the habit of regardless; but I feel like there'd probably be something extra we could do by giving her a Forged projectile besides the obvious but mostly extraneous burst of damage, even if it's not a 'something' that we've got or discovered at its current mastery level.


Adding it all up, the two've got the potential to absolutely be a force to reckon with on a battlefield. My main concern is that they'd be too much so, honestly, and combined with Beti's attention-grabbing bulk we might attract the attention of either a strong single enemy looking for their next target, or enemy group tactics/ formations aiming to overwhelm our own teamwork with numbers. But, presumably, most such battles we take part in will be ones where we've got allies too, and Beti+Keras makes for one heck of a helpful rallying point that would make assisting us a priority. ...Though, if attention becomes too much of a problem, Beti's still got us covered anyways - she's clearly a master of subtlety! See, look at that pristine and motionless Perfectly Normal Foreign Tree standing there in the middle of the pitched battle - who would ever suspect such an unobtrusive plant??? :V
 
'healing' an enemy from afar in ways that are very much not conductive to their continued health.
That feels like more of a Blood madra idea honestly. It could probably be done, but I think it would take more bending of the madra than it would with blood. Instead, use a ruler tech to Enforce any random bacteria in the person's body and give them the cold from hell :V
 
I don't think being a jack of all trades is necessarily bad either. We lack the ability to punch up like a specialist could against someone they're well suited to fighting, but it makes us perform very stably within our weight class. We won't be a one in a million Lowgold who can beat a Highgold, but we will be a Lowgold other Lowgolds can't beat easily, and once we advance we will even more importantly be a Highgold that will never get beat by a Lowgold.

Right now the main thing holding us back from that status is our techniques. They're not as advanced as the people 2-3 years older than us who are Lowgold. And at least in duels, one of our techniques we are actually good at (verdant valley) is mostly useless, because it doesn't seem like they fight with an intensity to let in battle healing be the deciding factor - these aren't fights to the death or surrender. They're nice fancy little duels that Prachi rolls his eyes at.

The one time the technique did matter, when fighting a poison specialist, it made a huge difference though.


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What I'm saying here is that, the fact that we can force 50/50 wins/losses in duels against people 2-3 years older than us with 2-3 more Mastered techniques, while one of our Mastered techniques doesn't do much in the context of our fights with them? It's because of that fact that we have no weaknesses physically. We aren't slow, we aren't fragile, our axe still Hurts when it hits. We have the madra capacity to keep going and can't just be ran out.

It's a nice, stable setup. Which fits with Keras I suppose, a strong tree has a good expansive root system.
 
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A question for @VagueZ, I know the normal path to getting to Truegold and all that involves basically eating your Remnant, if you want to do it quickly. Since we took in a remnant that is not on our Path - or even a related path - does that mean we cannot take this pathway to High/Truegold?

Taking remnants that aren't on your path is something that seeks pretty inadvisable, though we at least avoided getting disfigured like Jai, probably/possibly because the remnant itself wanted to be with us?
 
A question for @VagueZ, I know the normal path to getting to Truegold and all that involves basically eating your Remnant, if you want to do it quickly. Since we took in a remnant that is not on our Path - or even a related path - does that mean we cannot take this pathway to High/Truegold?

This one definitely falls under "close enough": although Zeyu's path doesn't match Keras', this is still covered under what Mom's mission out to Keras was about. Keras has found a balance between their own path and Zeyu's Remnant, and reaching Highgold/Truegold is about quality of madra. Keras will be following basically the classical path for their next two advancements. I would've called out difficulties to come if picking that Remnant and/or not making Dream a part of Keras' overall path would lead to that sort of problem.
 
This one definitely falls under "close enough": although Zeyu's path doesn't match Keras', this is still covered under what Mom's mission out to Keras was about. Keras has found a balance between their own path and Zeyu's Remnant, and reaching Highgold/Truegold is about quality of madra. Keras will be following basically the classical path for their next two advancements. I would've called out difficulties to come if picking that Remnant and/or not making Dream a part of Keras' overall path would lead to that sort of problem.
Hmm, so you can take in remnants that have a pretty different path. It sounds like you get a side benefit? So we'd be much strong in Life/Death if we'd taken a Life/Death remnant, whereas a Dream remnant basically got us a side-grade? (Obviously both remnants got us to Lowgold, I mean comparing L/D remnant Lowgold Keras to Dream remnant Lowgold Keras.)

Do you have any thoughts on what remnants wouldn't work? In general, not for Keras specifically. AFAIK the only advancement troubles we know of are Jai Long, and his remnant was pretty weird and hostile. It's a bit unclear whether the remnant he absorbed just had a particularly nasty path, or something about the circumstance Jai Long absorbed it in.

I imagine nasty paths like Poison are a no-go unless you're on a Poison path. Death, Destruction, and Hunger too?
 
Understandable, yeah; though even if it's not Keras acting as a juggernaut alone, we seem to be setting up for Beti to be capable of performing pretty much that same role with us.

On Beti's side of the bond we've got her main specialty of massively Enforcing the durability and power of her bark and vines, her expansive Madra reserves, and her sheer difference in form from the humanoid opponents most people train to defeat. She also provides a zone of safety for Keras to operate from, whether that be directly in her branches or to a slightly lesser degree from anywhere within the reach of her many and speedy vines. Then we've got Keras acting as support; puzzling out strategies and the specific nature of enemy Techniques with a genius on-call to doublecheck their work, using their advanced and accelerated senses to give Beti incoming dangers and vine-targeting suggestions at the speed of thought through their bond, personally harrying enemies that could handle either the vines or an opponent but not one seamlessly making openings for the other. And of course, even if anything does get through the kill-zone of powerful vines and hardened defense to damage Beti, Keras'd be right there and immediately healing her - no matter whether they're up in her branches or fighting nearby at the time thanks to their ability to heal at a distance and incredible coordination, and with probably even more effectiveness than they normally get thanks to her plantlike body being more suitable for our Path than the animal-healing it's mostly been used for.


Plus, there's the pair's other specialties that might be come into play on a battlefield outside of that core synergy - like, maybe Beti ends up making use of her capacity as a Refining material producer, and by the time any of this talk actually becomes relevant she's found some simple and fast products that can be mixed up on the fly or kept stored for later, giving her options to spray acidic/ sticky/ slippery/ blinding/ fire-suppressing/ etc liquids over swathes of ground or opponents as required.
Working with Beti in combat is a big advantage that Keras has and hasn't really used a lot so far in fights, but they are capable of doing so given the adventure they went on with Beti. Beti is able to act as muscle while Keras can act as brains and support which they're very geared towards doing.

Beti's ability to be a refining material producer could be used in and out of combat, out of combat most notably but also in combat from making exotic plant effects.

Or like Keras keeping on throwing out debilitating Techniques from their perch for Beti to capitalize on - Clinging Vines to hold someone in place at just the wrong moment, larger Desiccated Valleys acting to weaken and distract over time and potentially even feed that Life back into us with further mastery, Verdant Valley might grow surrounding plantlife into something miserable for humans to travel through but which poses no obstacle for Beti, or even find direct offensive use by 'healing' an enemy from afar in ways that are very much not conductive to their continued health. Plus, of course, there's Dandelion Rain - which when used normally would find fertile metaphorical ground in all the blindspots opened up by people focusing on the big obvious tree, but could also be physically handed over to one of Beti's vines for either a vine-strike that's got an added source of damage or an explosive projectile that's effectively just been launched at incredible speeds by a massive and sentient sling. ...Much the same could be said of just about any rock Beti picks up off the ground, admittedly, and that'd absolutely be a solid and negligible-cost ranged option for her to get into the habit of regardless; but I feel like there'd probably be something extra we could do by giving her a Forged projectile besides the obvious but mostly extraneous burst of damage, even if it's not a 'something' that we've got or discovered at its current mastery level.
There's a lot of potential for nasty combo attacks.

Adding it all up, the two've got the potential to absolutely be a force to reckon with on a battlefield. My main concern is that they'd be too much so, honestly, and combined with Beti's attention-grabbing bulk we might attract the attention of either a strong single enemy looking for their next target, or enemy group tactics/ formations aiming to overwhelm our own teamwork with numbers. But, presumably, most such battles we take part in will be ones where we've got allies too, and Beti+Keras makes for one heck of a helpful rallying point that would make assisting us a priority. ...Though, if attention becomes too much of a problem, Beti's still got us covered anyways - she's clearly a master of subtlety! See, look at that pristine and motionless Perfectly Normal Foreign Tree standing there in the middle of the pitched battle - who would ever suspect such an unobtrusive plant??? :V
Keras is very geared towards fighting in an actual mass battlefield which would make them a target.

No, I'm pretty sure multiple votes have ended up going for coordination because people wanted to mimic the Aurelius bloodline.

I think Jade cycling vote was just an outlier/an attempt to shore up a weakness.
Ah good to know..

That feels like more of a Blood madra idea honestly. It could probably be done, but I think it would take more bending of the madra than it would with blood. Instead, use a ruler tech to Enforce any random bacteria in the person's body and give them the cold from hell :V
Blood for better or worse isn't something Keras is using. I wish we could do that but people have authority over their bodies which makes doing that really damn hard.

I don't think being a jack of all trades is necessarily bad either. We lack the ability to punch up like a specialist could against someone they're well suited to fighting, but it makes us perform very stably within our weight class. We won't be a one in a million Lowgold who can beat a Highgold, but we will be a Lowgold other Lowgolds can't beat easily, and once we advance we will even more importantly be a Highgold that will never get beat by a Lowgold.

Right now the main thing holding us back from that status is our techniques. They're not as advanced as the people 2-3 years older than us who are Lowgold. And at least in duels, one of our techniques we are actually good at (verdant valley) is mostly useless, because it doesn't seem like they fight with an intensity to let in battle healing be the deciding factor - these aren't fights to the death or surrender. They're nice fancy little duels that Prachi rolls his eyes at.

The one time the technique did matter, when fighting a poison specialist, it made a huge difference though.


Edit:

What I'm saying here is that, the fact that we can force 50/50 wins/losses in duels against people 2-3 years older than us with 2-3 more Mastered techniques, while one of our Mastered techniques doesn't do much in the context of our fights with them? It's because of that fact that we have no weaknesses physically. We aren't slow, we aren't fragile, our axe still Hurts when it hits. We have the madra capacity to keep going and can't just be ran out.

It's a nice, stable setup. Which fits with Keras I suppose, a strong tree has a good expansive root system.
If Keras waits to advance to higher levels and keeps on improving their stats, skills and technique mastery they would still be able to punch up and be far more impressive then you'd expect someone of their level to be. It's just due to not hard specializing means it'll take longer to be able to punch up.

Keras is doing well in duels where they can't utilize their fighting style to it's fullest extent or abuse their healing ability and even then they're holding their own against people older and more experienced then them and able to fight at full capability. Keras being well rounded in stats just means they don't have weak points like many others do which has served them well so far.

A question for @VagueZ, I know the normal path to getting to Truegold and all that involves basically eating your Remnant, if you want to do it quickly. Since we took in a remnant that is not on our Path - or even a related path - does that mean we cannot take this pathway to High/Truegold?

Taking remnants that aren't on your path is something that seeks pretty inadvisable, though we at least avoided getting disfigured like Jai, probably/possibly because the remnant itself wanted to be with us?
That's a good question.

This one definitely falls under "close enough": although Zeyu's path doesn't match Keras', this is still covered under what Mom's mission out to Keras was about. Keras has found a balance between their own path and Zeyu's Remnant, and reaching Highgold/Truegold is about quality of madra. Keras will be following basically the classical path for their next two advancements. I would've called out difficulties to come if picking that Remnant and/or not making Dream a part of Keras' overall path would lead to that sort of problem.
So Keras will be trying to gain control of their goldsigns and understand Zeyu's Remnant more. Would that help them further understand Ocular methods?

Hmm, so you can take in remnants that have a pretty different path. It sounds like you get a side benefit? So we'd be much strong in Life/Death if we'd taken a Life/Death remnant, whereas a Dream remnant basically got us a side-grade? (Obviously both remnants got us to Lowgold, I mean comparing L/D remnant Lowgold Keras to Dream remnant Lowgold Keras.)

Do you have any thoughts on what remnants wouldn't work? In general, not for Keras specifically. AFAIK the only advancement troubles we know of are Jai Long, and his remnant was pretty weird and hostile. It's a bit unclear whether the remnant he absorbed just had a particularly nasty path, or something about the circumstance Jai Long absorbed it in.

I imagine nasty paths like Poison are a no-go unless you're on a Poison path. Death, Destruction, and Hunger too?
A Life/Death remnant would've been interesting but it likely would've been tricky to get one but such a remnant would've been interesting.
 
This one definitely falls under "close enough": although Zeyu's path doesn't match Keras', this is still covered under what Mom's mission out to Keras was about. Keras has found a balance between their own path and Zeyu's Remnant, and reaching Highgold/Truegold is about quality of madra. Keras will be following basically the classical path for their next two advancements. I would've called out difficulties to come if picking that Remnant and/or not making Dream a part of Keras' overall path would lead to that sort of problem.

That's fair. We also have a Fishman who hasn't featured highly in awhile who could probably help us out with this stuff if it was a problem. 'Oh yeah I ran the math on how you can improve stuff' is his thing.

A Life/Death remnant would've been interesting but it likely would've been tricky to get one but such a remnant would've been interesting.

I wish we had taken the death bird. Black wings of death would be an awesome goldsign.

I was very shocked when I read that the seer won, and still don't quite get Why on that one. It's not too bad and hey it helped us make our omni technique.
 
A Life/Death remnant would've been interesting but it likely would've been tricky to get one but such a remnant would've been interesting.
I was very shocked when I read that the seer won, and still don't quite get Why on that one. It's not too bad and hey it helped us make our omni technique.
There was the option for a Death remnant, is just that it was from a bird and people were really aiming for extra hands (because of the Iron Body), and Zeyu's Remnant had the best chance to give the option. Everything else was secondary.
 
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A question for @VagueZ, I know the normal path to getting to Truegold and all that involves basically eating your Remnant, if you want to do it quickly. Since we took in a remnant that is not on our Path - or even a related path - does that mean we cannot take this pathway to High/Truegold?

Taking remnants that aren't on your path is something that seeks pretty inadvisable, though we at least avoided getting disfigured like Jai, probably/possibly because the remnant itself wanted to be with us?
I think what you're describing might be what we could've done with the Highgold Tree remnant, which would've given us an advantage up to Highgold?
I was very shocked when I read that the seer won, and still don't quite get Why on that one. It's not too bad and hey it helped us make our omni technique.
Personally it was a mix of a human remnant giving a chance of extra arms, and dream madra allowing us to take some inspiration from our mother. The improved spiritual senses and boost to esoteric refining was just gravy for me.
 
That's fair. We also have a Fishman who hasn't featured highly in awhile who could probably help us out with this stuff if it was a problem. 'Oh yeah I ran the math on how you can improve stuff' is his thing.
To me it feels like Etaja is trying to give Keras space to develop more on their own, they're still talking and he's still helping it's just that he wants Keras to be able to function without him.

I wish we had taken the death bird. Black wings of death would be an awesome goldsign.

I was very shocked when I read that the seer won, and still don't quite get Why on that one. It's not too bad and hey it helped us make our omni technique.
The mental boosts to Field's Strength is quite nice. We could've gone for making Dream a part of our path but I think we made the right call in not doing that given how it would've made is so that there's three elements. The only option I can see that being feasible for me now is if Keras somehow got infected with a Blood Shadow and picked up Blood as part of their cycling.

There was the option for a Death remnant, is just that it was from a bird and people were really aiming for extra hands (because of the Iron Body), and Zeyu's Remnant had the best chance to give the option. Everything else was secondary.
Personally I would've liked it if the Crow symbolism got covered more. For me teh vote for remnant was mostly related to refining speciality and I wanted an esoteric specialty and senses boost.

I think what you're describing might be what we could've done with the Highgold Tree remnant, which would've given us an advantage up to Highgold?
I think that it would've made Keras's Life stuff more potent.

Personally it was a mix of a human remnant giving a chance of extra arms, and dream madra allowing us to take some inspiration from our mother. The improved spiritual senses and boost to esoteric refining was just gravy for me.
Following in the footsteps of Keras's mother is nice given how they've already done so for their dad and have done their own thing with Death. Funnily enough the extra arms was a bonus for me and the senses and esoteric refining was the main motivation for me.
 
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