Rock the Cradle: A cultivation story

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhh.... Verdant Valley is a ruler technique so it wouldn't be the technique itself that would refuel it. Still, Eithan's Hollow King's Crown does show that you don't need to be in direct contact with where a technique emanates. The principles from Verdant Valley could possibly be used for it or Verdant Valley itself could be adjusted to help.
 
Verdant Valley works on plants and Keras has been shown to be able to grow a plant at a distance, "reloading" would just be a more advanced application of this, no?
 
If so, then use Verdant Valley to pump more madra into the construct which it can then use to grow more seeds. It'd be harder sure, but less complex than having the construct be able to draw in madra on its own.
 
Sure. I'd buy that we could modify the technique to do so, but I don't think it'd be able to do so in its current form.
 
Why would Verdant Valley need modification? It can already pump madra into plants/people at a distance, why would a Life madra construct be different?
 
Why would Verdant Valley need modification? It can already pump madra into plants/people at a distance, why would a Life madra construct be different?

Because it isn't just a matter of pumping madra into things. Ruler techniques use madra to shape aura and it's that aura that manipulates what it's connected to. Verdant Valley is reliant on the existing life aura within plants or people. Forged life madra doesn't have life aura.
 
It would honestly probably be infinitely easier to get a soulsmith to make like, a drone that fires weaponized life aura at things and draws it in using scripts to power itself. Sadly we decided to be a refiner not a soulsmith.

What we really need is to find like, some naturally carnivorous plant that we can rapidly grow into being with verdant valley. Just some mass of hook thorned vines that pull things to a central mouth lol. Just toss out some seeds and insta grow some Thorn Horrors or whatever.

Problem is, a lot of the cooler plants in setting likely get that way from years or centuries of absorbing one type of aura or another to Advance themselves, and I dunno how much of that we'd be able to reproduce with our ruler tech. You know, it's a bit surprising how little we see of any like, beast tamer paths in canon. Somebody probably has a path for raising all those winged snakes and such. I'm not sure we even see any contracted beasts aside from Lindon's. Well, the blood shadows come close.
 
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Turning Dandelion Rain into turrets kind of kills it's main use case; which is being able to fire a bunch off from different angles at weird timings as surprise attacks. A turret is only a surprise for the first bullet and then it gets destroyed, so it seems like it'd be more cost for not much more benefit.

The ways I see Dandelion Rain really improving are;

Numbers - As is, we throw out a couple shots and they hit as hard as a punch, which isn't amazing. But if we are launching out dozens of them it becomes harder to defend against. Wouldn't increase the base damage, but if we are hitting with 6 instead of 1 that's improvement. But this is probably expensive and as said above, we are not grinding our soul strength endlessly like Lindon.

Striking Damage - This might combo with speed, but making individual shots more of a threat is important. But a basic straightforward 'this hurts a lot more like a striker technique is meant to' is good. The downside here being that it's the boring but powerful option.

Weird esoteric death stuff- I could see us making Dandelion Rain into a technique that uses a life casing to launch a death-seed at our enemies. Probably adds some of the negative effects our current death additions add, sapping techniques or awareness ot physical strength or something. Make it more of a damage over time technique? Wouldn't improve our ability to hit with it, but would make it more threatening when it does.
 
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Heck, maybe the technique could even be formed around an actual seed to reinforce the theme at hand and potentially influence the resulting construct - we've still got that renewed collection of useful seeds from our birthday, after all, that hasn't been touched on-screen since.
I'm pretty sure this is something that Keras can already do with Verdant Valley, and that it's literally the first thing they learned?
Since it's the foundation of their family's Path.
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The only real problem is making it be a viable tactic mid-combat.
That's... not what that section was talking about? I wasn't thinking about just fast-growing an otherwise normal plant, I was thinking about a possible variant on my previous sentence's 'planted' Dandelion Rain idea; which essentially consumed a physical seed as a material component to both reinforce the Forged Seed's imagery and to in some way influence the madra construct that grew as a result of it being planted.
 
That's... not what that section was talking about? I wasn't thinking about just fast-growing an otherwise normal plant, I was thinking about a possible variant on my previous sentence's 'planted' Dandelion Rain idea; which essentially consumed a physical seed as a material component to both reinforce the Forged Seed's imagery and to in some way influence the madra construct that grew as a result of it being planted.

The closest thing we've seen to something like that requires hunger madra, and going decently far into it. It might still be possible without that. Cradle's power system is pretty broad, but it'd be going past what we've seen from the books.
 
I read all of Cradle (twice) but I never really got that good of a feel for why certain techniques were what they were. Why is Yerin summoning small swords to slash at enemies a striker technique but her summoning massive huge sword is Forger?
As I understood it
Striker: Controls madra outside/far from the body
Enforcer: Controls madra within/near the body
Ruler: Uses madra as a tool to manipulate aura
Forger: Uses madra to create physical matter

A forger technique can be functionally very similar to a striker, as Yerin's is, but it gets there in a pretty different way. A striker technique that shoots a sword at someone is shooting the spiritual energy of a sword, a forger technique is making a literal sword. Forger techniques can be used to make permanent objects which don't need to be sustained afterwards.

The most common example of this is Scales. Scale making is just so ubiquitous that no one really thinks of it as a technique. Also brings me to one of my favorite retrospectively funny details of Cradle. Lindon is generally paying for stuff in pure madra. Normally pure madra is acquired through harvesting the madra of children in foundation establishment.

He spends the first few books wondering why everyone is getting so freaked out by him while wandering around using the path of indisicriminate destruction, looking like he's just got back from a murder, and paying for everything in what most would assume are child corpses.
 
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Instead of owls like Charity, Forest Sage Keras has a horde of carnivorous tree constructs seeded through the forest feeding them information and devouring trespassers while soaking up life aura to sustain themselves.
That's one of the main inspirations I had for it actually.

The problem is, a turret plant technique would require you to pump in enough Madra for *all* the shots it's gonna take, and Keras isn't Lindon or Eithan with their ridiculous reserves. You could maybe create a seed technique that could draw in life aura to power itself, but then it's some kind of ruler/striker combo and would likely require Keras' active attention or a much much more complicated initial technique to perform, and I dunno if they're capable of either as is.

I suppose the closest counterpart in canon would be Sophara's moon ruler techs that autonomously debuffed her opponents with water and fire aura?
Oh yeah it would be an absolute madra hog, while Keras has more reserves then most people they fall short of Eithan and Lindon's bullshit.

We could probably develop some sort of root network technique in order to feed madra into a set of turrets, but I can't imagine that helping with our speed. We'd probably also need to go into soul smithing if we want to learn how to make a proper launcher construct for the turrets. It feels like spreading ourself too far in my opinion.
Soulsmithing is something I want Keras to learn because it's a useful skillset and it fits them as a character given that they're very curious and interested in experimenting.

It would honestly probably be infinitely easier to get a soulsmith to make like, a drone that fires weaponized life aura at things and draws it in using scripts to power itself. Sadly we decided to be a refiner not a soulsmith.

What we really need is to find like, some naturally carnivorous plant that we can rapidly grow into being with verdant valley. Just some mass of hook thorned vines that pull things to a central mouth lol. Just toss out some seeds and insta grow some Thorn Horrors or whatever.

Problem is, a lot of the cooler plants in setting likely get that way from years or centuries of absorbing one type of aura or another to Advance themselves, and I dunno how much of that we'd be able to reproduce with our ruler tech. You know, it's a bit surprising how little we see of any like, beast tamer paths in canon. Somebody probably has a path for raising all those winged snakes and such. I'm not sure we even see any contracted beasts aside from Lindon's. Well, the blood shadows come close.
There are likely paths centered around raising impressive plants and Keras is well suited for such a path.

Turning Dandelion Rain into turrets kind of kills it's main use case; which is being able to fire a bunch off from different angles at weird timings as surprise attacks. A turret is only a surprise for the first bullet and then it gets destroyed, so it seems like it'd be more cost for not much more benefit.

The ways I see Dandelion Rain really improving are;

Numbers - As is, we throw out a couple shots and they hit as hard as a punch, which isn't amazing. But if we are launching out dozens of them it becomes harder to defend against. Wouldn't increase the base damage, but if we are hitting with 6 instead of 1 that's improvement. But this is probably expensive and as said above, we are not grinding our soul strength endlessly like Lindon.

Striking Damage - This might combo with speed, but making individual shots more of a threat is important. But a basic straightforward 'this hurts a lot more like a striker technique is meant to' is good. The downside here being that it's the boring but powerful option.

Weird esoteric death stuff- I could see us making Dandelion Rain into a technique that uses a life casing to launch a death-seed at our enemies. Probably adds some of the negative effects our current death additions add, sapping techniques or awareness ot physical strength or something. Make it more of a damage over time technique? Wouldn't improve our ability to hit with it, but would make it more threatening when it does.
Those do seem to be the main three paths to developing Dandelion Rain.

As I understood it
Striker: Controls madra outside/far from the body
Enforcer: Controls madra within and near the body
Ruler: Uses madra as a tool to manipulate the aura within an area
Forger: Uses madra to create physical matter

A forger technique can be functionally very similar to a striker, as Yerin's is, but it gets there in a pretty different way. A striker technique that shoots a sword at someone is shooting the spiritual energy of a sword, a forger technique is making a literal sword. Forger techniques can be used to make permanent objects which don't need to be sustained afterwards.

The most common example of this is Scales. Scale making is just so ubiquitous that no one really thinks of it as a technique. Also brings me to one of my favorite retrospectively funny details of Cradle. Lindon is generally paying for stuff in pure madra. Normally pure madra is acquired through harvesting the madra of children in foundation establishment.

He spends the first few books wondering why everyone is getting so freaked out by him while wandering around using the path of indisicriminate destruction, looking like he's just got back from a murder, and paying for everything in what most would assume are child corpses.
Another good summary of the various types of techniques.

Lindon looks suspicious as hell and it's kinda hilarious.
 
Regarding super combat plants I think its the same as weapons.

If you want a good one, you raise it from seed, and keep it in a portable flowerpot or something, then you Enforce it when it comes to combat.
 
For Keras specifically technique wise I think they're pretty well rounded right now. One thing I think we should keep in mind is that 5 techniques is actually a lot of techniques for a Path to have. Cradle goes hard on that "fear kick practiced one thousand times not one thousand seperate kicks practiced once" thing. Lemme just run through em all.
Verdant Valley: Mastered Life-aspected Ruler technique
You can force plants to grow quickly or grow healthy with a thought, compressing weeks' worth of growth into seconds. You have additionally learned to heal using this. After weeks of Bronze Serpent coaching, while you cannot wholly replace lost or mutilated organs or extremities, with enough time and madra, little else is beyond you. Even poisons and diseases will give way. The chief limitation is if powerful madra opposes you: you must overcome it to heal. With plants, your field of effect has both reach and breadth: it encompasses far more area and reaches farther than others expect, encompasses dozens of square yards.
Verdant Valley is the utility technique which exists as the reminder Keras is running a farmer's Path. That doesn't mean it's utility isn't huge though. Healing is an amazing utility to have and for a refiner being able to boost plant growth has obvious benefits. It can be developed further (all of them can) but as is it's great. It does it's job.
Field's Strength: Mastered Life-and-Dream-aspected Enforcer technique
You draw energy from your core and the Remnant you've taken in to enhance your body and mind. You are faster, stronger, and tougher with it buoying you. While this much is obvious and wreathes your body in the faint impression of ivy, the other benefit it grants is speeding your mind and senses, so you can think and react quickly. Overuse of this last benefit can strain you.
This is honestly one of Keras' best techniques currently. It's well refined with the general benefit people use enforcer techniques for with the power of its Dream boosted sense enforcing specialty giving it flavour. I don't think we can justify another enforcer technique with this as it is. We can build on it but another would just be overlapping two seperate techniques requiring two seperate costs and that's not what we should be focusing Keras' concentration specialty on honestly.
Clinging Vines: Advanced Life-and-Death-Aspected Forger technique
You throw out a string of madra meant to catch and bind. It can be dodged by someone sufficiently quick, but otherwise ghostly ivy will manifest and restrain your target. You can use it to hold things or bind things together although sufficient raw strength or the right technique will break it. It has a currently-subtle effect that tries to kill techniques on those it binds, making it a little harder to activate or keep active techniques.
I am biased for Clinging Vines I believe in its power as a supporting combat technique. Especially with how specced Keras is into concentration and having 4 hands. Clinging Vines can ge incredibly hard as the main control technique of the Path and I really want to empower it's draining aspect. We could use more forger techniques though. Another boosted by the iron body isn't something to complain about.
Dandelion Rain: Basic Life-aspected Striker technique, with Forger elements
Although it can also be used as a basic ranged Striker technique, launched from your hand, like most Striker moves, its real power is in your ability to throw a "seed" of madra that will only shoot after a delay, from the point it was thrown to. This can be used for surprise or as a way to multiply your power by having them strike simultaneously. At present, you can maintain only two seeds at a time.
This functions as the ranged damage option and honestly I think it's better to keep it focused on an ambush of damage. I don't think we want to split its focus further and weaken the damage potential considering the access Keras has to other debuffing techniques. It's the technique that really brings the Path together currently. This and Clinging Vines is where Keras's concentration can shine by sheer weight of techniques used in unison to harass the opponent.
Desiccated Valley: Basic Life-and-Death-aspected Ruler technique
A technique where you use a spinning boundary field of life madra to try to suck out life power. Originally a gardening technique meant to clear an area of plant life, you've found that the life-suction is much more potent if you also pour in death madra to replace the removed life madra. Although you're loathe to use this to a lethal degree, even a lesser form of the death madra claws at senses, making others sometimes miss crucial details.
And finally. The showstopper. The (current) finisher. The big charged up ruler technique trump card. This is also where concentration gets to pop off. It's funny how this technique pretty much perfectly aligns with a Life/Death Path in concept and functions as a foil to Verdant Valley. Keras is already inclined to Ruler techniques from the first technique vote. The iron body empowered them as an option even further. The goldsign combos with the iron body to allow multitasking. Keras can be an utter monster of building ruler fields and harassing with Clinging Vines and Dandelion Rain to overwhelm by sheer weight of techniques. All things grow and wither at their whim.

Following on that if we really want more techniques at some point I'd definitely go for a ruler or forger one for sure, though the current 5 is probably fine. stat wise I think we need stamina, we really want stamina to really pop off with technique spam. For refining current techniques it's gotta be dandelion rain, clinging vines, or desiccated valley in my opinion.

If we can somehow pull out a ruler/forger technique that could be incredibly funny for Keras. Otherwise I just really want people to consider the power of overlapping ruler fields as an option Keras has available. We don't actually get to see many of those in canon but the concept of it is terrifying. It could be cool if we could somehow do a dual cast technique combo of Verdant and Desiccated Valley for an ultimate ruler technique but that is probably difficult to pull off.

Another thing I'd want to mention technique wise is that a technique has refinement but it is also bounded by advancement so a technique will always relatively grow in scope and ability as the Sacred Artist advances and practices the technique. Limitations will naturally fall off as we go, unless of course VagueZ prefers giving us more control there which would make sense in a quest.
 
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Numbers - As is, we throw out a couple shots and they hit as hard as a punch, which isn't amazing. But if we are launching out dozens of them it becomes harder to defend against. Wouldn't increase the base damage, but if we are hitting with 6 instead of 1 that's improvement. But this is probably expensive and as said above, we are not grinding our soul strength endlessly like Lindon.

Striking Damage - This might combo with speed, but making individual shots more of a threat is important. But a basic straightforward 'this hurts a lot more like a striker technique is meant to' is good. The downside here being that it's the boring but powerful option.

Weird esoteric death stuff- I could see us making Dandelion Rain into a technique that uses a life casing to launch a death-seed at our enemies. Probably adds some of the negative effects our current death additions add, sapping techniques or awareness ot physical strength or something. Make it more of a damage over time technique? Wouldn't improve our ability to hit with it, but would make it more threatening when it does.
[] Fold Dream into Dandelion Rain
You will double the amount of seeds you can throw, from two to four, and their blasts try to interject distracting dream madra on hit: small visual illusions and spikes of emotion may affect peer or weaker targets, hampering them slightly. This is worth being called an Advanced technique.
We know that getting to Advanced via Dream increases the number of seeds we can have active at once, which if that's the case here should also apply no matter what upgrade we end up picking for this tech.
 
For Keras specifically technique wise I think they're pretty well rounded right now. One thing I think we should keep in mind is that 5 techniques is actually a lot of techniques for a Path to have. Cradle goes hard on that "fear kick practiced one thousand times not one thousand seperate kicks practiced once" thing. Lemme just run through em all.
Getting really damn good at your techniques is something that really matters.

Verdant Valley is the utility technique which exists as the reminder Keras is running a farmer's Path. That doesn't mean it's utility isn't huge though. Healing is an amazing utility to have and for a refiner being able to boost plant growth has obvious benefits. It can be developed further (all of them can) but as is it's great. It does it's job.
It's Keras origin point as a farmer and plant focused person. Healing is something that's gotten folded into it to great effect and plant growth is useful for Refiner.

This is honestly one of Keras' best techniques currently. It's well refined with the general benefit people use enforcer techniques for with the power of its Dream boosted sense enforcing specialty giving it flavour. I don't think we can justify another enforcer technique with this as it is. We can build on it but another would just be overlapping two seperate techniques requiring two seperate costs and that's not what we should be focusing Keras' concentration specialty on honestly.
It's very useful as an enforce technique because it boosts Keras's body, mind and sense. Honestly the only other thing I can think of is leaning into it boosting healing factor and then just pushing the technique further.

I am biased for Clinging Vines I believe in its power as a supporting combat technique. Especially with how specced Keras is into concentration and having 4 hands. Clinging Vines can ge incredibly hard as the main control technique of the Path and I really want to empower it's draining aspect. We could use more forger techniques though. Another boosted by the iron body isn't something to complain about.
Having it be useful as an interrupt, capturing and harrying technique is a good idea.

This functions as the ranged damage option and honestly I think it's better to keep it focused on an ambush of damage. I don't think we want to split its focus further and weaken the damage potential considering the access Keras has to other debuffing techniques. It's the technique that really brings the Path together currently. This and Clinging Vines is where Keras's concentration can shine by sheer weight of techniques used in unison to harass the opponent.
Focusing on damage is a great idea because it'll get Keras a way to deal damage to targets at a range and to individual targets.

And finally. The showstopper. The (current) finisher. The big charged up ruler technique trump card. This is also where concentration gets to pop off. It's funny how this technique pretty much perfectly aligns with a Life/Death Path in concept and functions as a foil to Verdant Valley. Keras is already inclined to Ruler techniques from the first technique vote. The iron body empowered them as an option even further. The goldsign combos with the iron body to allow multitasking. Keras can be an utter monster of building ruler fields and harassing with Clinging Vines and Dandelion Rain to overwhelm by sheer weight of techniques. All things grow and wither at their whim.
Has a lot of potential to be very scary and deadly. It's basically the meshing of everyting that Keras has build toward in their path between their Ironbody boosting it and their madra elements working perfectly to pull it off.

Following on that if we really want more techniques at some point I'd definitely go for a ruler or forger one for sure, though the current 5 is probably fine. stat wise I think we need stamina, we really want stamina to really pop off with technique spam. For refining current techniques it's gotta be dandelion rain, clinging vines, or desiccated valley in my opinion.

If we can somehow pull out a ruler/forger technique that could be incredibly funny for Keras. Otherwise I just really want people to consider the power of overlapping ruler fields as an option Keras has available. We don't actually get to see many of those in canon but the concept of it is terrifying. It could be cool if we could somehow do a dual cast technique combo of Verdant and Desiccated Valley for an ultimate ruler technique but that is probably difficult to pull off.

Another thing I'd want to mention technique wise is that a technique has refinement but it is also bounded by advancement so a technique will always relatively grow in scope and ability as the Sacred Artist advances and practices the technique. Limitations will naturally fall off as we go, unless of course VagueZ prefers giving us more control there which would make sense in a quest.
Making a Forger technique is what I'm most inclined towards right now. Stamina being the next B rank stat would make sense given it's Keras's main focus after coordination. I'm in favor of refining Desiccated Valley and Clinging Vines and then deciding which technique should be the one to reach Master after that.

Making a technique that's both Ruler and Forger would be very interesting. Dual Casting Verdant adn Desiccated Valley would be awesome and terrifying.

Advancement does help the abilities of a technique but so does skill and pushing skill beyond what's typical for advancement level is a good idea.
 
Honestly the only other thing I can think of is leaning into it boosting healing factor and then just pushing the technique further.
I think I'd rather leave healing for verdant valley and just amp up the physical boost we get from the enforcer technique than mix in more aspects to it.
Making a technique that's both Ruler and Forger would be very interesting.
Lindon did that with his dragon claw move right, drawing in destruction and fire aura to charge up his Forged claw?
 
If we wanted to try to upgrade our Enforcer technique beyond just 'flat better at something it already does' I think a fun upgrade to pursue with the Dream side would be some sort of combat prescience to play off the light seer themes Keras has. The ability to predict what someone will do a second or two before they do it.

Would fit well with their fighting style I think.
 
Charity had an enforcer technique that ehanced her mind so that she's better able to pick up on tells.

It's far enough from what our enforcer technique does now that it seems like it'd be difficult to achieve. With regards to the mental image perhaps we could do something with how a farmer needs to predict the weather and the course of seasons if they don't want their crops to fail? Or more personally I'm sure there's some sacred plants that have strict enough requirements to grow that we could pull inspiration from having to predict their needs.
 
I think we can sort of justify it with the stuff we already have. It already enhances our coordination, first via bullet time juicing and more stable-y through the introduction of Dream. And coordination is how we process and respond to sensory info. In a way this would be a development of us improving a response to an odd type sensory info (the very slight future).

So what I'm saying is; future sight wielding deathknight Keras.
 
I am like, 90% sure the machines they used to make scales at the pyramid filtered madra to make pure scales rather than anyone harvesting madra from pre copper children. I don't remember anyone freaking out about his money.
Seems you're correct on a quick reread. What I was thinking of was dead matter of pure madra.
 
If it was a physical plant then sure, but not forged madra.

To be honest, I don't see why not. That hadn't been in my notes as a potential option, but I think it's going in there now. It'd need to either be a development of the Verdant Valley or of Dandelion Rain, though, you're right, it doesn't really fit to work as-is without development. Some of the other suggestions discussed had already been in there.

You know, it's a bit surprising how little we see of any like, beast tamer paths in canon. Somebody probably has a path for raising all those winged snakes and such. I'm not sure we even see any contracted beasts aside from Lindon's. Well, the blood shadows come close.

There's the Beast King. Apparently he reached Herald by contracting with various powerful beasts. Kotai Taien had a contracted beast partner for the nine seconds he appeared in "Skysworn". I'm not totally clear on if the Sandvipers had a contracted partner or not, but they might also count.

Lindon did that with his dragon claw move right, drawing in destruction and fire aura to charge up his Forged claw?

It's also an Enforcer move, but yes.

Within Rock the Cradle, that's the central thing we've seen Venkata do twice; her "make a giant brilliant rainbow" move is Forger/Ruler.

I think we can sort of justify it with the stuff we already have. It already enhances our coordination, first via bullet time juicing and more stable-y through the introduction of Dream. And coordination is how we process and respond to sensory info. In a way this would be a development of us improving a response to an odd type sensory info (the very slight future).

So what I'm saying is; future sight wielding deathknight Keras.

Ah, so one of the things you regret not being involved early enough for is the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception option.

Yes, this is an intentionally unfair way to describe what I was presenting, shhhh.
 
If we wanted to try to upgrade our Enforcer technique beyond just 'flat better at something it already does' I think a fun upgrade to pursue with the Dream side would be some sort of combat prescience to play off the light seer themes Keras has. The ability to predict what someone will do a second or two before they do it.

Would fit well with their fighting style I think.
My assumption would be that that kind of precognition (for Keras at least) would be limited to Underlord at the earliest.
We see Dross do so in canon when Lindon was Truegold, but that required a lot of stuff to come together. For Keras if we'd picked the seers instead of Cheng/Beti/Refining we probably could've managed it earlier, but not as we are now.
And honestly 'better at what it already does' isn't much of a limiting factor when the technique already does 4 different things.
To be honest, I don't see why not. That hadn't been in my notes as a potential option, but I think it's going in there now. It'd need to either be a development of the Verdant Valley or of Dandelion Rain, though, you're right, it doesn't really fit to work as-is without development. Some of the other suggestions discussed had already been in there.
I figured when our techniques were advanced enough we'd be able to pull off combination moves, maybe with soulfire to help nudge things along?
 
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