Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

[veekie]

I mean, there were constant problems with people cheating on, or bribing the proctors for, the Imperial Exams in China too. The Chinese didn't just somehow robotically follow a social pattern that Romans would have instantly broken; there was a real back-and-forth between those who had the incentive to break it in their favor, and those who kept enforcing it (when it suited them) to preserve their control over institutions.

Given the role the Imperial Examinations actually played in China, I wouldn't rule out being able to institute something similar in Rome- but you'd have to do it after the Imperial period had begun, because in the Republic there isn't any civil service for the test to act as an entryway into.

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There were, but it was considered culturally shameful to the family cheat in the same way, which meant that theres an ongoing effort to jack up exam difficulty by making it esoterica which of course only the favored scholars could have learned and blind fire wasn't going to get.

But Rome in this era was a very personal endeavor. Not using every tool you have at hand would just leave you noble, but never approaching power. Everyone wanted to be the very best. But there can only be one.

 

[Simon_Jester]

This is one the more irritating misconceptions about the past that people have, that they all died young, or that old people were very rare.

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Uh, you're reading too much into my comment. That, or you're reading too much into my standard of how unlikely something has to be to be "very impressive."

 

[globalwarmth]

much like people in rural areas today, the average lifespan was brought down by the fact that there was a huge infant mortality rate.

Most kids died before 15, that's why the Romans celebrated that age for their kids and we still kinda do it in latin countries (quinceañera). People who reached their 20 and weren't killed violently had a good chance to reach 60-70

 

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, you're the second person to mention it and I get that. What I'm saying is, reaching seventy-five was still pretty impressive.

Augustus is hardly the only major world leader to outlive multiple successive heirs through living that long; Louis XIV is another good example. He died at seventy-six and passed the throne to his five year old great-grandson, having outlived all his sons and his eldest grandson.

 

[Ridiculously Average Guy]

Huh. You sure it was a good chance to reach ~60 instead of ~40? I ask since, in the case of literal royalty, assuming he has his first kid at ~16, that means 2 generations dead in 60 years.

fauxedit: Also when I googled it, I got "reach 20, you'll probably reach 40-50. Reach 60, and you'll probably reach +70".

 

[veekie]

Huh. You sure it was a good chance to reach ~60 instead of ~40? I ask since, in the case of literal royalty, assuming he has his first kid at ~16, that means 2 generations dead in 60 years.

fauxedit: Also when I googled it, I got "reach 20, you'll probably reach 40-50. Reach 60, and you'll probably reach +70".

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Keep in mind upper class lifespan expectations are significantly comparable to modern urban lifespans due to:
-Relative isolation from urban populations
-High quality of food, water and shelter
-Having any significant effort made to keep them alive when significantly ill.
-High levels of general fitness due to martial background
-Lower number of children due to managing inheritance

The big skews in average life expectancy were:
-Vulnerability to famine. They happened lots. If you were unlucky enough to be sick during a food shortage...too bad, you're dead unless you were rich enough to eat without working.
-Childhood mortality to disease
-Childbirth for young women
-War for upper class young men

A lot of modern life extension comes from trimming off childhood diseases, misadventure and having a pretty good quality end-of-life quality of life rather than being pretty fucked once you stopped having an income.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Indeed, disease, famine, and war are three of the four horsemen for a reason and all three have been greatly reduced by modernity such as it is.

 

[Simon_Jester]

[pokes away at an Oracle of Delphi omake]

 

[Nurgle]

So I am assuming @Ridiculously Average Guy won the banner contest?

 

[Exmorri]

Indeed, disease, famine, and war are three of the four horsemen for a reason and all three have been greatly reduced by modernity such as it is.

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Ehhhh. I must say war hasn't really been reduced so much as it has been compressed into fewer larger events like World Wars. If a third one were to break out next year, future historians might describe us right now as living in the extremely violent historical period of "the World Wars".

 

[veekie]

Ehhhh. I must say war hasn't really been reduced so much as it has been compressed into fewer larger events like World Wars. If a third one were to break out next year, future historians might describe us right now as living in the extremely violent historical period of "the World Wars".

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Mostly by dint of modern warfare running too damned hot because we can draw far deeper into our economy than ancient civilizations. And having a larger economy.

But means of non-martial conflict resolution has also expanded due to the greater economy. Theres often not a lot you could do to change things short of going over to stab.

 

[AvidFicReader]

Camp Discussions

You sit outside your open tent, enjoying the last warm days of summer as you put the finishing touches on your latest letter to Cicero. It is there that Rufus finds you.
"Ave, Atellus! What manuscript is that, some treatise on law or command?"
"Ave, Rufus. No, this is a letter for Cicero. He is by far the best letter writer I have ever corresponded with."
"It boggles the mind, that you can follow anything in that absurdly large pile of paper. Your last reply took me a few days to review!"

The two of you exchange banter as you walk the perimeter of the winter camp. Eventually, your conversation comes back around to the siege. "You know, Rufus, even though I recommended that we set winter quarters here, I can see the merits of Carcellus' plan. It was the factions of officers who wanted to keep the pressure on Meddix that convinced me otherwise. The next problem is the city wall. It's what, about twelve meters? And a fairly small perimeter, all told. Storming the walls becomes an unpleasant prospect from there."
"Atellus, don't pretend you know enough about siege engineering to bluff me! While you've been running patrols with those horrid Gauls, I've been working with the architects on our siege works. Just watch and learn, I'll show you one of the things that will help us win this city."
So saying, Rufus leads you to a construction site where the architects are erecting the foundations of what looks to be a wooden tower. There are additional foundations , but what draws your eye is the siege machine being assembled nearby. Two wooden arms poking through a twisted bundle of ropes, a basket of bolts the size of pila --
"This, my friend, is a scorpio, and there will be more mounted atop the towers. Ideally, they'll be taller than the walls, so we can shoot down on them, while they will have to shoot up at us. Sertorius hasn't had cause to employ them yet, but this will be a good opportunity. I am told one bolt can run through three men before coming to a halt. If we can make use of these, no one will want to stand atop the walls and suffer their fire."
"Well, that certainly is intimidating. I would assume that this scorpio is best employed against large formations of men, than static defenses. Unless you can somehow employ burning pitch or the like without setting the whole construct aflame?"

Rufus ponders it a bit, before responding, "Perhaps, I'll have to consult with the engineers. But if we can get the towers up enough that we can see into the city..."
You pick up on Rufus' thoughts, "We might be able to pick out important structures, such as granaries, or barracks. A massed fire attack at range could certainly prove disruptive, and even if it fails, the defenders would have to use some of their precious water supply."
"Well reasoned! If you could mention it to Sertorius in your sessions, I can consult with the engineers. Hah! a tribune's work is never done."
"Too right you are. Sometimes it feels like everything is on fire, and we must put out the biggest fires first."
"Well, gods and Sertorius willing, Appius Meddix will soon have that same feeling, only hotter."
"Agreed, my friend. Now, duty calls."
"Don't tell me you'll make me review your letter, my eyes went cross-eyed after just a few pages!"

Fake Edit: I should not be writing at 5AM, but here you go.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rufus has been studying siegecraft. He is very, very clearly a Roman nerd, and when nerds go to war, a giant-ass ballista is exactly the kind of thing they bring with them.

 

[Nurgle]

Ok so I am going to try to speculate on what is going to happen in the future. Marius being alive has thrown a huge butterfly to history. So now we have two armies in the east fighting the instead of one.

First the Marian's are fully behind Marius. They are not the loose support that Cinna have but United. There are a lot of them and they are powerful and a little crazy. OTL several times forces supposedly loyal to the Marian's went over to Sulla. But now they have a legendary general who is being kept alive by Apollo.

Sulla must have had fortuna own luck because otl he several times when he should have been killed. Than after he killed a lot of people stole there property and money. To finally retire to the countryside with his male lover and his wife. The only good thing is we are not rich enough to be worth killing if proscribes happen these time.

Ok with two armies in the east you think the war would finish sooner. But I think it wil last about the same maybe even longer. The territory that was taken from Rome is being liberated by the brave Roman legions faster that otl. Sulla originally gave the Mithridates lenient terms but if Marius give harsher than he will also have to give the same terms if not harsher terms. Got to love politics making wars harder than they need to be.

Ok now I see three possibilities happening. First Sulla wins in a epic battle against Marius on top of the dead Mithridates king body. Epic glory and loot is had and we get something similar to the otl.

Second Marius wins kills the Mithridates king epic loot and glory had and two things happen. We get proscribed like before but that more of Sulla followers die. Or Marius dies after killing Sulla. I mean he is old and going on what would be a hard campaign for a young man let alone a man his age. But most likely we get him coming back to Rome killing his enemies pulling a Sulla on the rich.


Or we get lucky and they both died would be Sertorius best option for so many reasons. He does not care about Marius and is Sulla enemy because Sulla opposes him in a election earlier for unspecified reasons. Also he than becomes Rome's best general. Which would also cause us to rise. Really hoping these one happens.

 

[Ridiculously Average Guy]

Ok now I see three possibilities happening. First Sulla wins in a epic battle against Marius on top of the dead Mithridates king body. Epic glory and loot is had and we get something similar to the otl.

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With an army both cut down in numbers, and tired of war, couldn't Sertorius swoop in and finish off Sulla? At that point he'll have solidified a core of Marians behind him, and be unchallanged as Rome's top general.

 

[Nurgle]

With an army both cut down in numbers, and tired of war, couldn't Sertorius swoop in and finish off Sulla? At that point he'll have solidified a core of Marians behind him, and be unchallanged as Rome's top general.

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Well Sulla has three veteran legion and auxiliaries but was joined by Pompey (3 veteran legions )and Crassus later. Also the veterans of the 6th are veterans of Sulla social war. So while the men are love there commander we would have to deal with at least some of the veterans being sympathetic to Sulla. Not also counting that our last misses from our spy master said that Pompey veteran legions are desperate for something to do.

Also the army that would have been sent against him was sent with Marius. I mean they could theoretically raise another army but cost and time to get something better than green troops are not with him. Pls the officer core with the Marian's seems to be hit or miss on competence.

 

[Thyreus]

So, I'm currently listening to the History of Rome podcast and a Sulla victory wouldn't be so bad for us, unless we run off to Spain for some reason?

I mean, we are unmarried. We have a sister who is unmarried. We can always try to marry into the winning faction.

Besides, we are a small and not particularly wealthy fish and are a pretty good student of Scaevola (I'll eat my hat if the man hasn't already written some of his allies about our prodigious talent just to brag).

Not to mention that Sulla's reforms of the republic which were aimed to prevent another Sulla will be rolled back sooner or later after his death (another reason to get rid of the republic, serious reform efforts have a problem to actually stick).

Also, I totally want Sulla to say about Atellus that he sees "many a Marius in him."

As long as Pompey doesn't manage to get us killed before Sulla grows tired of him I don't think we have to worry that much about who wins.
We are not yet part of the elite.

 

[Nurgle]

So, I'm currently listening to the History of Rome podcast and a Sulla victory wouldn't be so bad for us, unless we run off to Spain for some reason?

I mean, we are unmarried. We have a sister who is unmarried. We can always try to marry into the winning faction.

Besides, we are a small and not particularly wealthy fish and are a pretty good student of Scaevola (I'll eat my hat if the man hasn't already written some of his allies about our prodigious talent just for the bragging rights).

Not to mention that Sulla's reforms of the republic which were aimed to prevent another Sulla will be rolled back sooner or later after his death (another reason to get rid of the republic, serious reform efforts have a problem to actually stick).

Also, I totally want Sulla to say about Atellus that he sees "many a Marius in him."

As long as Pompey doesn't manage to get us killed before Sulla grows tired of him I don't think we have to worry that much about who wins.
We are not yet part of the elite.

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We voted to get closer to Sertorius so we may have to run to Spain if Sulla wins. Other wise I say stay in rome we are not rich enough to be murdered and have our property auction off to the highest aristocratic bid.

 

[Thyreus]

We voted to get closer to Sertorius so we may have to run to Spain if Sulla wins. Other wise I say stay in rome we are not rich enough to be murdered and have our property auction off to the highest aristocratic bid.

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We can always say "no".
Really, we'll have to backstab some people to get to the top, and if Sertorius needs to be added to the list where Cicero's name is already at the top, so what?

Better than losing a hopeless battle in Hispania.

 

[Nurgle]

We can always say "no".
Really, we'll have to backstab some people to get to the top, and if Sertorius needs to be added to the list where Cicero's name is already at the top, so what?

Better than losing a hopeless battle in Hispania.

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I actually expected you to go the other way. Usually when you talk about having to betray a well liked character most people are vehemently against it. I am sorry I thought that.

But it really depends on who lives and dies in the east.

 

[Thyreus]

I actually expected you to go the other way. Usually when you talk about having to betray a well liked character most people are vehemently against it. I am sorry I thought that.

But it really depends on who lives and dies in the east.

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Cicero will want to save the republic, I want to save Rome. I can't do that by making Cicero my waifu (besides, I'd choose Caesar every time if not for him being a rival), and I can't do that by doggily following Sertorius outside of Italia to get slowly ground down.

So yeah, if the civil war ends with Sertorius on top, that's great, I like the guy, but I won't vote for a losing party out of misplaced loyalty.

Not that it really matters. Most of the factors to the death of the republic are already in play. Cults of personality introduced by Scipio Africanus, giant exploited territories, countless slaves on the market, demagogues and mob violence and breaking tradition through the Gracchi, Marian reforms of the army, generals who had marched on Rome...

Really, putting the republic out of her misery will be a kindness.

 

[Nurgle]

Cicero will want to save the republic, I want to save Rome. I can't do that by making Cicero my waifu (besides, I'd choose Caesar every time if not for him being a rival), and I can't do that by doggily following Sertorius outside of Italia to get slowly ground down.

So yeah, if the civil war ends with Sertorius on top, that's great, I like the guy, but I won't vote for a losing party out of misplaced loyalty.

Not that it really matters. Most of the factors to the death of the republic are already in play. Cults of personality introduced by Scipio Africanus, giant exploited territories, countless slaves on the market, demagogues and mob violence and breaking tradition through the Gracchi, Marian reforms of the army, generals who had marched on Rome...

Really, putting the republic out of her misery will be a kindness.

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Well supposedly Julia minor is still avaible for a waifu so we could go for being Ceaser brother than betray him decade down the road. There can be only one. One of Ceaser bad traits is that he is roman and missed a lot of opportunities for more power and influence by being roman. Something we would gladly take the hit with from the traditionalist for being friends with foreigners.

Cicero will one day oppose us. I would say he is a Uncle Tom but that will not be relative saying for 2000 years. He is the most roman non roman in history. Complete with being exiled once and trying to get public money to rebuy his property. The republic needs to be reformed badly and the only way it will happen is over the dead bodies of many of senators.

 

[Erandil]

Eh, I personally think that at this point it is still early enough in Cicero's career/life to change some of his opinions and traits so that he may be a bit more "pragmatic" if we and the GM really wanted to (or indeed make him less influential in roman politics). Hell, I would argue that it isn't entirely within the realm of the impossible that Cicero might have chosen to "side" with Caesar at multiple points in his careers, given the right impetus. I mean from what I remember he did view the guy as quite smart and I think Caesar also liked Cicero and offered him a place several times and in a moment of "weakness" even a guy like Cicero might have taken him up.

 

[Caesar]

He was offered a chance to essentially turn the First Triumvirate into a Quadrumvirate, but, despite realising that he was being offered "a very close alliance with Pompey, and if I want, with Caesar as well, and a reconciliation with my enemies, peace with the mob and security in my old age," refused it in one of his occasional fits of courageous principle. (The refusal, incidentally, lead to Pompey and Caesar turning Publius Claudius Pulcher into Clodius and letting him entirely off the leash.)

While we're on the topic of waifus, as @Nurgle points out, Julia Minor is a pretty good option - her ancestry is absolutely impeccable, her living family has ties to both sides of the civil war (I've gone into the tangled web of Caesar's ties to Marius and Sulla before) but is not quite prestigious/wealthy enough to turn their noses up at us, and it ensures that Caesar won't sleep with our wife. On the downside, she won't have much of a dowry (unless Marius chips in, which has complications of its own), a living Marius makes her much more attractive in the marriage market, it draws us into Caesar's orbit, and there's a non-zero chance that a hypothetical victorious Sulla would tell us to divorce her or face proscription. Oh, and it butterflies Octavian, which may be a plus or a minus depending on one's own point of view.

There are a handful of other appropriately aged young Roman noblewomen I can think of, but they're all some combination of already wed, above our station as things stand, or heavily optimate/Sullan aligned. (Aemilia Scaura may be all three.)

Anyway, a consideration for the future.

 

[Tinkerer]

To be honest I would be all for just stabbing Caesar early and just going from there.