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Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

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@Caesar we are in these wierd moderate place between the Sullan and the Marian's factions. With both of our main teachers example of both factions. We could theoretically go either way and gain a lot either as a back channel or betraying one of our teachers for wealth and land.

Julia minor increasing looks like a good marriage prospect. Besides her impeccable bloodline she also has no major scandals caused by her and bore her otl husband 5 kids.
 
You guys are boring, clearly we should try to swing a marriage with Cleoptra herself. Sure she isn't a proper Roman and yes she probably has (had) other lovers but I doubt anyone can beat one of the richest and most important countries as a benefit for marriage ;). Where is your ambition and sense of adventure ?! :p.




... I am mostly joking though I have to say that if you really want to go the "warlord" route (or even establish a "second" roman state) getting egypt to join us could be hugely beneficial. Though when I think about it there surely must be a suitable Seleucid princess around too if you really want to attempt to derail history^^.
 
Erandil said:
You guys are boring, clearly we should try to swing a marriage with Cleoptra herself. Sure she isn't a proper Roman and yes she probably has (had) other lovers but I doubt anyone can beat one of the richest and most important countries as a benefit for marriage ;). Where is your ambition and sense of adventure ?! :p.




... I am mostly joking though I have to say that if you really want to go the "warlord" route (or even establish a "second" roman state) getting egypt to join us could be hugely beneficial. Though when I think about it there surely must be a suitable Seleucid princess around too if you really want to attempt to derail history^^.
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Yeah, I'm sure Mark Antony thought the same. And then Octavian's propaganda ruined him in the eyes of Rome for being ruled by an exotic woman and having set aside a good and proper Roman one. That and getting some stupid idea about granting Cleopatra or her son Roman land or something.
 
Erandil said:
You guys are boring, clearly we should try to swing a marriage with Cleoptra herself. Sure she isn't a proper Roman and yes she probably has (had) other lovers but I doubt anyone can beat one of the richest and most important countries as a benefit for marriage ;). Where is your ambition and sense of adventure ?! :p.




... I am mostly joking though I have to say that if you really want to go the "warlord" route (or even establish a "second" roman state) getting egypt to join us could be hugely beneficial. Though when I think about it there surely must be a suitable Seleucid princess around too if you really want to attempt to derail history^^.
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Well she will not be born for 18 years but if you want to go for it you do you.

The more I look at it the more I want to marry Julia minor because of the awkward situation the wedding will be. We could invite Sulla, Cinna, Marius and several other close relatives of her family.
 
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The problem with marrying (as opposed to seducing) Cleopatra, or any other notable foreign noblewoman, is that, IIRC, the children of a citizen and a non-citizen are non-citizens themselves, which is something of an obstacle. (Alas, poor Gallic princess, we shall never carry you over our threshold.)

Of course, if we already had heirs from a previous marriage, it would merely be an absolutely massive scandal, and such things can be born if one has sufficient auctoritas and dignitas. Cato's great-grandmother Salonia was a slave and freedwoman before Cato the Elder married her. (In order to troll his son and daughter-in-law, by some accounts :D.)
 
Nurgle said:
Sulla must have had fortuna own luck because otl he several times when he should have been killed. Than after he killed a lot of people stole there property and money. To finally retire to the countryside with his male lover and his wife. The only good thing is we are not rich enough to be worth killing if proscribes happen these time.
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Point of order. From the sound of it our domus has considerable resale value...


Ok now I see three possibilities happening. First Sulla wins in a epic battle against Marius on top of the dead Mithridates king body. Epic glory and loot is had and we get something similar to the otl.
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True except for Sulla having, in all probability, a badly scarred rump force depleted from his battle with Marius. He can make good those numbers if he can link up with Pompey, of course, but on the other hand, Pompey may actually be in danger in the wake of a Sullan victory in this timeline. The Marians have had more time to consolidate their hold on Rome. And they're not stupid; they know that if Sulla comes back they're all on the chopping block.

Given that rumors of Pompey's plans for a coup attempt have probably propagated within Rome, Pompey's willingness to back Sulla by force is probably taken for a given, and simply removing the arrogant youngster from the equation would be no worse than any number of other things the Marians have already done. It would deprive Pompey's three legions of clear leadership, possibly enabling the Marians to at least divide their numbers somewhat and add to their own strength for a final desperate confrontaiton with Sulla, probably under Sertorius using multiple legions.

The biggest problem with this plan for the Marians is that Pompey's likely to be a hard target, given how many soldiers he has.


Second Marius wins kills the Mithridates king epic loot and glory had and two things happen. We get proscribed like before but that more of Sulla followers die. Or Marius dies after killing Sulla. I mean he is old and going on what would be a hard campaign for a young man let alone a man his age. But most likely we get him coming back to Rome killing his enemies pulling a Sulla on the rich.
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Er, do you mean "we get proscribed" as in Quintus Atellus personally? Or do you mean "we get proscriptions?

In the former case, I suspect we can get Sertorius and to a lesser extent Cinna to intercede on our behalf, as we have on the whole done nothing to cross the Marians directly except for studying law under the wrong guy. In the latter case, well, see previous.

Or we get lucky and they both died would be Sertorius best option for so many reasons. He does not care about Marius and is Sulla enemy because Sulla opposes him in a election earlier for unspecified reasons. Also he than becomes Rome's best general. Which would also cause us to rise. Really hoping these one happens.
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I'd actually be happy with this outcome, and I think it might be best for Rome as a whole, but it would require both Marius to win and then for him to fail his "don't die" roll in fairly short order.

Nurgle said:
Well Sulla has three veteran legion and auxiliaries but was joined by Pompey (3 veteran legions )and Crassus later.
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Crassus is an opportunist; I suspect that he'll only join Sulla if he's pretty sure Sulla's going to win.

Caesar said:
While we're on the topic of waifus, as @Nurgle points out, Julia Minor is a pretty good option - her ancestry is absolutely impeccable, her living family has ties to both sides of the civil war (I've gone into the tangled web of Caesar's ties to Marius and Sulla before) but is not quite prestigious/wealthy enough to turn their noses up at us, and it ensures that Caesar won't sleep with our wife.
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Consider me sold. :p

Erandil said:
You guys are boring, clearly we should try to swing a marriage with Cleoptra herself. Sure she isn't a proper Roman and yes she probably has (had) other lovers but I doubt anyone can beat one of the richest and most important countries as a benefit for marriage ;). Where is your ambition and sense of adventure ?! :p.
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As of the in-game present, Cleopatra is about negative sixteen years old. Yes, negative sixteen. By the time she is of anything like romanceable age, Quintus Atellus will be in his fifties. So it is rather a necessity to plan for a marriage that takes place before Cleopatra's era.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Crassus is an opportunist; I suspect that he'll only join Sulla if he's pretty sure Sulla's going to win.
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Eh, his father and brother both died when Marius and Cinna retook Rome, and he himself had to flee for his life. Now, if any man in Rome can put that aside and make a cold-blooded, pragmatic decision, Marcus Licinius is that man, but as things stand if he is to prosper he kind of needs Marius dead or out of power.
 
@Simon_Jester sorry the autocorrect on my phone is corrupted. We are not reallly worth killing and having our land sold for 25 aceres. While our house is worth something most people did not want to buy houses in the country side they wanted to live in Rome. I guess you could find a buyer but they would not pay what it is worth.

Crassus is a opportunist but he also hates the Marian's. They are the reason he fled Rome and raised a army. Also otl Sulla beat a army that our numbered him by 80,000 than another army of 150,000. Sulla is no joke as a general. Before Pompey and Crassus joined him in Italy. Underestimating him is a bad idea. Most of the best officers that are veterans have served under him. He is as good or better than Marius as a general. Far better than our current commander.

Glad to see you on the Julia Minor train. Ok that sounded bad but Julia for waifu.
 
I'd like to hear what others think of the proposition that Sulla was a categorically better general than Sertorius.

EDIT:

Even if he is, the difference in skill is probably narrow enough to be offset by circumstance modifiers...
 
Simon_Jester said:
True except for Sulla having, in all probability, a badly scarred rump force depleted from his battle with Mariu
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I wouldn't count on that to be honest. Marius seems intent on beating Mithridates first, before taking on Sulla. And given his age, not to mention the fact that he is campaigning far from home, it might just mean that he croaks before he clashes with Sulla. Maybe even before he actually subdues Pontus.
 
It's a really hard comparison to make. They're the only two living men to have won the Grass Crown, and they're both incredibly inspiring generals (Sertorius waged a ~10year war in Spain on the strength of his personal charisma, and Sulla has a great track record of rallying his men to do the impossible/unthinkable.)

Beyond that, Sertorius is a guerrilla par excellence, a master of reconnaissance, ambush, and rapid movement. Sulla, by contrast, is a superb organiser and engineer, more in the Marian mould. (He won the battle of Orchomenus by digging canals and essentially flooding the Pontic army.)

In Italy, legion on legion, I would give a very, very slight edge to Sulla, assuming all other factors equal. But they won't be. For one thing, Sulla has Lucullus as his go to subordinate. Sertorius, currently, has us. That's as unequal a match up as Mercator against Cicero in a swordfight. For another, the Italians aren't that fond of Sulla. There are a host of other potential factors that could play a role in such a contest, too many to list here.

TL;DR That one's going to the judges.
 
Nurgle said:
Julia minor increasing looks like a good marriage prospect. Besides her impeccable bloodline she also has no major scandals caused by her a
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Nurgle said:
The more I look at it the more I want to marry Julia minor because of the awkward situation the wedding will be. We could invite Sulla, Cinna, Marius and several other close relatives of her family.
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Simon_Jester said:
Consider me sold
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Nurgle said:
Glad to see you on the Julia Minor train. Ok that sounded bad but Julia for waifu.
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"Caesar, old buddy, old pal, how ya doin? Julia's doing great. By the way, what date is it, 15th of March? What a coincidence, it's my sister's birthday! Let's go grab all our guards and visit her party before we head to the Senate House. Say, how's that nephew of yours doing, what was his name... Octavian? He's a sharp lad, and I am looking for a new protege..."

I pledge my alleigance to this ship.
 
Caesar said:
It's a really hard comparison to make. They're the only two living men to have won the Grass Crown, and they're both incredibly inspiring generals (Sertorius waged a ~10year war in Spain on the strength of his personal charisma, and Sulla has a great track record of rallying his men to do the impossible/unthinkable.)

Beyond that, Sertorius is a guerrilla par excellence, a master of reconnaissance, ambush, and rapid movement. Sulla, by contrast, is a superb organiser and engineer, more in the Marian mould. (He won the battle of Orchomenus by digging canals and essentially flooding the Pontic army.)

In Italy, legion on legion, I would give a very, very slight edge to Sulla, assuming all other factors equal. But they won't be. For one thing, Sulla has Lucullus as his go to subordinate. Sertorius, currently, has us. That's as unequal a match up as Mercator against Cicero in a swordfight. For another, the Italians aren't that fond of Sulla. There are a host of other potential factors that could play a role in such a contest, too many to list here.
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I imagine that if Sulla were returning from the Orient in wrath, Sertorius would have his pick of able Marian-aligned, military-experienced men of his generation willing to serve under him in order to avert disaster. He wouldn't be stuck with a pack of green tribunes plus one and a half promising youngsters.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I imagine that if Sulla were returning from the Orient in wrath, Sertorius would have his pick of able Marian-aligned, military-experienced men of his generation willing to serve under him in order to avert disaster. He wouldn't be stuck with a pack of green tribunes plus one and a half promising youngsters.
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The problem is that, IIRC, that's a surprisingly limited group, and most of those are likely in Asia with Marius.

Edit: And, short of wildcard Pompey, Lucullus is still going to be better than anyone lesser than Marius or Sertorius.
 
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Ok Sulla would win because well he has advantages that the Marian's don't.

1 Sull is loved by his legions. While Sertorius is well liked and charismatic Sulla literally got his legions to march on Rome twice. Something that by all rights the gods should have punished him and his men for.

2 wealth. The richest people support Sulla. Pompey can afford to have three veteran legions at his age. Crassus literally raised a army off his own wealth and his clients wealth. The Senate is having a problem with money and when Sulla became dictator they had to do proscription. All the raising of legions and civil wars had cost a lot of money.

3 both I and Caeser have touched on it before but Sulla has far better officer core than the Marian's. Sulla has some of the best officers to draw on. While the Marian's are kind f either unloved idiot or good officers. Seritous is the best officer after Marius. Than it kind of drops off fairly competent.


Now that I think about it Marius has to loot the Mithridates kingdom. He needs the gold.
 
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I mean we could look in to marrying a foreigner, but we'd have to have a pretty great power base and it would have to get us some great alliance to make up for the stigma,
 
NavySeel said:
I mean we could look in to marrying a foreigner, but we'd have to have a pretty great power base and it would have to get us some great alliance to make up for the stigma,
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How since than it was illegal for a Roman to marry foreign women and hold public office as well as the social stigma. There is no power base or anything or rome but Romans . Than we just be a foreign despot invading Rome if we use a foreign power base.
 
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Nurgle said:
How since than it was illegal for a Roman to marry foreign women and hold public office as well as the social stigma. There is no power base or anything or rome but Romans . Than we just be a foreign despot invading Rome if we use a foreign power base.
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By Powerbase I mean Caesar/Octavian tier powerbase, not something we'll be doing any time soon.
 
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