- Location
- The Philippines
I'm just praying both Sulla and Marius die in the east. A pox on both their houses.
Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Original Historic
- Location
- The Philippines
Oh right.
Gods. We shot ourselves in the foot ratting Pompey out. Ah well, hindsight is 20/20.
Pompey influence is that he has 3 legions and somewhat rich. He has to take his legions on campaign and relatively soon since they are just standing around costing him money. Also remember that the real power in Rome rember his frailer attempt to start several riots and assassinate Marius. Which would have torn Rome apart. Pompey has a lot of physical power but no hard power right now.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Eh, more that we had no good option there.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Dunno. Pompey would be one of several major power-brokers in Rome. He'd command the loyalty of those three legions, but as noted, they're eating a hole in his pocket if he doesn't take them on campaign and get some loot with them.
If Marius kills Sulla, then dies himself, his legions are still fine. There's nothing actually stopping, say, Sertorius from picking up the Marian legions and whatever else he can gather up and just chasing Pompey all over Italy until his strength and influence gets ground down to a nubbin.
Historically, Pompey was able to leverage his control of those three legions into a good relationship with Sulla, which in turn meant that he was in a good position to gain glory and wealth by chasing down the Marian holdouts. If Sulla isn't around, and the Marians aren't utterly routed and destroyed as they were OTL after Marius the Elder's death, Pompey doesn't have a firm foundation to anchor his military power to.
Moreover, he may have a bad reputation even among the optimates, because his attempted coup could have backfired disastrously and gotten them all killed. The only person who's likely to thank Pompey for trying to stage that coup (the one we informed on to the other optimate leaders) is Sulla, who was conveniently out of town when it happened and who would have been handed Rome on a silver platter if Pompey had succeeded. So if Sulla never comes back, Pompey's in trouble.
...
By contrast, if Sulla does come back then WE are in trouble, because Pompey will do everything in his power to ingratiate himself with Sulla and convince him to have us proscribed. Ouch. Our best hope is that Scaevola can intercede with Sulla on our behalf, possibly explaining to him with the help of other optimates who were in Rome at the time of Pompey's coup plan just how bad an idea it was.
A Short History of the Decline of the Cingulii
- Location
- Texas
*muse strikes*
Well, there's actually a very good reason for that:
A Short History Of The Decline of the Cingulii, by Georges McCaulay (pub. 2014, Northwestern University):
Built sometime around 155 BCE by the orator and jurist Lucius Cingulatus Cotta (popularly known as Cotta the Elder), the Villa of the Cingulii was originally meant to be a summer home for the twice-Consul and his large family. By the end of the century, however his last living relatives would count it as their sole remaining possession of worth.
Though beloved in his day, Cotta and his heirs would become the most popular victims of what was later called the Punic Curse. In his time, Cotta was one of the most adamant supporters of Cato the Elder in his efforts to see Carthage destroyed, and, during his Consulship, famously ended his own speeches with "...and, in my opinion, Cato must be heeded in the matter of the Carthaginians.", both echoing and signifying his support for Cato's famous refrain: Carthago delenda est — Carthage must be destroyed. Many in Rome opposed this course, for Rome had previously sworn a holy oath to never again take up arms against the Carthaginians unless provoked, and many feared breaking it would incite the gods themselves.
Nevertheless, Cotta and his allies formed a major part of Cato's support, and, in 149 BCE, succeeded in convincing the Senate to declare the third and final Punic War. His son, Cotta the Younger, was placed in command of one of the legions sent to destroy the city of Carthage. Cotta the Younger was instrumental in the siege of Carthage, being one of the first through the walls, and plundered many of the riches of the Carthaginians, a wealth he would later call '...the vilest and most subtle curse ever set upon a man'. Under Cotta and his fellows, the Romans easily sacked the defenseless city, sold its inhabitants into slavery, and burned it to the ground.
Two weeks after Carthage fell, Cotta the Elder, in one of history's little quirks of chance, slipped off of his horse while visiting the conquered city of Utica — in what had once been Carthage. He broke his neck, but --much to his own regret-- did not die instantly. Rather, he spent four agonizing days barely-alive, paralyzed, until his heart gave out and he died. Many in Rome whispered that this was a bad omen, a sign from the gods of ill things to come, but Cotta the Younger, now heir to all his father's wealth, heeded it not. He grieved a week or two, then returned to Rome with the spoils of the Punic foe.
Cotta began to use his newfound wealth, gained from the spoils of Carthage, to improve the fortunes of the Cingulii. He built a great domus on the Palatine Hill, where Rome's most powerful and wealthy lived, and began sponsoring or taking on as clients many of the downfallen and less wealthy members of his sprawling family. He also began hosting great parties and feasts, making himself beloved of his fellow Patricians, and quickly garnered a reputation as one of the wealthiest men in Rome, and one of the most generous besides. He would often take visitors to his home aside to show them spoils from Carthage. The most prized of these spoils was reportedly a mural taken from the former home of Hannibal, which Cotta delighted in showing off to visiting senators to remind them of his 'heroics' in Carthage.
But as time passed, Cotta's troubles began to make themselves apparent. His family quickly grew accustomed to the wealth, and his cousins and nephews soon relied on him almost entirely for everything, from food to housing to clothing. His near family was affected as well: his sons grew up in opulent wealth and quickly grew decadent. At an age when other young men began aspiring for the cursus honorum, Cotta's heirs seemed satisfied with wine and women. His wife was little better, constantly throwing massive parties and feasts for which she demanded the finest silver plates and settings — replaced newly with each meal, as she felt water dulled their shine.
Cotta often despaired of his family in later life, and on more than one occasion, was heard cursing both his own seed and the womb that had borne them. Every day, new long-lost family members seemed to crawl out of the woodwork to take advantage of his famed generosity, and he found himself supporting entire branches of the gens single-handedly. The family, though exceedingly wealthy, began to lose status in the eyes of Rome proper: wealth was appreciated in Rome, but hedonism was certainly not. Cotta began to lose allies and influence as quickly as he had gained his wealth, and found his words carried less and less weight in Rome -- forcing him to back them up with coin.
Finally, in the late 140's BCE, a final tragedy struck, putting a permanent end to Cotta's troubles.
A massive fire broke out in Cotta's estate in Rome, burning it to the ground. Cotta the Younger perished, along with his wife, his two eldest sons, and at least another sixteen members of the gens Cingulii. Cotta was survived in the male line only by his brother's son — Gnaeus Cingulatus Atellus, then forty-three years of age, who was visiting a grandmother in Herculaneum at the time. Atellus raced to Rome to claim the family inheritance and rebuild the home, only to find that there was no inheritance. Cotta had merely sold some of his many treasures when he needed new funds, and all those treasures had stayed with him in his home. In his paranoia, the senator had trusted no one save himself with his wealth, and now everything had gone up in smoke. The Cingulii were destitute.
Atellus removed himself to the ostentatious villa in the Roman countryside, now all that remained of their inheritance. The other surviving Cingulii, absent even that small comfort, fell into fleshmongering, merchantry, and other practices the Romans considered distasteful. His branch of the family, the Atellan Cingulii, would remain there for the rest of the century and well into the final century of the Roman Republic.
Gnaeus himself would be plagued by financial troubles for the rest of his life, and squandered what little wealth he could gain in half-baked attempts to regain the family's status. For decades after, he served largely as a living, breathing cautionary tale to Roman youths about the dangers of greed and oathbreaking. His piteous state, as well as the fates of Cotta the Elder and his son, once Rome's brightest stars, helped give rise to the legend of the Punic Curse: a terrible doom bestowed upon Rome by the gods for the arch-sin of destroying Carthage. Those who believed in the Curse said that Rome's unjustly stolen wealth would lead to her destruction, and that the slow death of the Cingulii would play out again over the course of centuries, this time with Rome herself.
As for the Cingulii proper, it was only under Gnaeus' son, Lucius Cingulatus Atellus, that the family began the process of regaining their long-lost honor, through his deeds as a legate in Spain. However, the family would not regain any true status in Rome until the majority of his own son, Quintus Cingulatus Atellus, who would catapult the dynasty to heights not seen since Cotta's own grandfather, Lucius Cingulatus Mereber, the Dictator of Macedonian fame...
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- Location
- Philippines
Correction, I need TWO Gallic names. So help me, if I don't get names from someone, I'm going with Asterix references.
Asterix and Obelix.
There.
But Pilate already want to spare Christ and wash his hand form christ's blood.What these guys said:
Also, because it'd be interesting to see just how we would go about fixing the Republic if we are ever given the opportunity.
As for other personal goals, I do like the idea of Atellus being a sort-of sympathizer to Hellenistic Judaism if ever we end up in the East. And future generations of alternate timeline Christians will look at us as a virtuous pagan.
And spare Christ for real will invite the wrath of wealthy and influence people that Roman try to govern.
- Location
- Europe
By the time of Jesus' crucifixion Atellus would be in his 130s. Save to say that this won't be his concern anymore.
Curse the Carthiginians and horrible stewardship stats!!
By the way, how would dear old dad stack up? We have seen legends getting character sheets, but I'd like to know how an competent better-than-average Roman would look like.
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- Location
- The Philippines
More likely than not Atellus won't live long enough to see the death of Herod, let alone the birth of Jesus.
What I want is for our boy to have some measure of sympathy for foreign cultures like the Jews and Gauls. Not to the point of seeming un-Roman, but enough that we won't end up with modifiers like Enemy of the Judaeans (Rank 5).
somnolentSlumber
(Verified Proofreader)
- Location
- hell
I think my favorite part of this quest is learning bits of interesting history, to be honest
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Just finished reading through (for the most part). Obviously due to my own quest I'm obligated to wish for Rome's demise, so for now I shall read and lurk rather than vote 
It is a very good quest. I appreciate the attention to Late Roman detail and how you bring the world to life.
It is a very good quest. I appreciate the attention to Late Roman detail and how you bring the world to life.
- Location
- Central Europe
I concur with most of this. There is only one situation I wanted to offer a different perspective on:
Sulla's return to Rome, should he win in the east, could well be with less strength then it was in OTL. (My personal guess is actually that Sulla will try to 'sneak' back to Rome while Marius is busy in Asia Minor, but I digress). This, plus Pompey's fallout with the optimates over his little uprising, opens up the possibility that Pompey might side with the Marians. I'm pretty sure the inspiration for the Opportunist choice in the politcs vote a while back was Pompey.
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- Location
- The Philippines
What I want is for our boy to have some measure of sympathy for foreign cultures like the Jews and Gauls. Not to the point of seeming un-Roman, but enough that we won't end up with modifiers like Enemy of the Judaeans (Rank 5).
Actually, now that I think about it, I'm actually curious what it would take to get such in-quest.
- Location
- Orlando,FL
The problem with jews is convincing them not to constantly rebelMore likely than not Atellus won't live long enough to see the death of Herod, let alone the birth of Jesus.
What I want is for our boy to have some measure of sympathy for foreign cultures like the Jews and Gauls. Not to the point of seeming un-Roman, but enough that we won't end up with modifiers like Enemy of the Judaeans (Rank 5).
Seeing as atellus is developing into a major diplomancer it might not be that hard, but its still a very tricky feat to pull off
Gauls might not be that hard to intergrate
- Location
- Orlando,FL
Kicking them out of judea
I forgot to mention it when we talked about our possible mid to long term goals but as I said before one of the things I would really love to do it once we get to a position of some influence in Rome is establish something akin to an actual police force (that depending on your viewpoint may best be paid by the Senate). It is certainly a bit ahistorical but I really think that such an institution could be a very positive influence for Roman politics (and security).
Tasoli
Life is for Living
- Location
- Behind the Keyboard.
I think lictors would be the starting point for this kind of thing.
Although that begs the question of how to stop the police from pulling their own coups. They would be at the heart of the empire with no one else to stop them.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Telamon :
Yeah, something like this fails to surprise me, but the core point remains: the income-producing assets of a typical Roman patrician are insignificant compared to the expenses typically associated with keeping up high status in Roman political life, forcing (nearly) everyone (except Crassus) to look for ways to pile up big heaps of treasure by force, instead of cultivating their own gardens.
Having a dedicated law enforcement agency in Rome might actually help, the only problem is keeping them from being a corrupt arm of someone or other...
You know, this might be the ONE thing Cato would be good for! He's a stubborn asshole, but he's conscientious, cannot be bought, and is utterly freaking fearless about confronting powerful people.
Yeah, something like this fails to surprise me, but the core point remains: the income-producing assets of a typical Roman patrician are insignificant compared to the expenses typically associated with keeping up high status in Roman political life, forcing (nearly) everyone (except Crassus) to look for ways to pile up big heaps of treasure by force, instead of cultivating their own gardens.
I would have taken bit characters, but yes, something like that was my fallback option.
To be fair, he probably HAS spared a few thoughts for what to do depending on outcomes in the East, but he's probably not worrying about it very much right now, you're right.
On the contrary; in Roman Mediterranean, Carthage curse YOU!
I too am curious about this, @Telamon . We know what Atellus looks like, but he is (implied to be) the larval form of a great Roman. We don't have a good sense for what a merely pretty good Roman looks like, and that could matter, because it's going to inform a lot of our ideas about (for instance) what hypothetical clients of ours are and are not capable of. Or actual clients, for that matter; I bet Marius Himatus has some skills higher than ours that we could benefit from.
The Romans already had this problem anyway with the Praetorian Guard.
Having a dedicated law enforcement agency in Rome might actually help, the only problem is keeping them from being a corrupt arm of someone or other...
You know, this might be the ONE thing Cato would be good for! He's a stubborn asshole, but he's conscientious, cannot be bought, and is utterly freaking fearless about confronting powerful people.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
I smell SWAT tactics.
I think you may have the other piece to my puzzle here.
- Location
- USA
Might be a good angle to set him up as a client to Atellus once he sets up shop in Rome, if he hasn't already formally established that relationship off screen.
That said, one hell of a short-term pay off already.
- Location
- Arcadia
Would that we had never come to Pompey's attention at all. Alas, there were no optimal solutions to that particular conundrum. Furthermore, as a ruthless, amoral social climber with no loyalty to anyone except himself and the acquisition of power, I am not sure Pompey would have been much better as a "friend". I wish Caesar was occupying the vast majority of Pompey's attention, but we are not so fortunate.
Speaking of Caesar, he was originally targeted by Sulla's proscriptions, but Caesar's mother's family included supporters of Sulla, and they interceded on his behalf. Ultimately, Sulla did reluctantly spare Caesar.
It may be a similar situation for us. If Sulla returns, our association with Sertorius could well draw Sulla's wrath upon us, and should Pompey gain Sulla's favor, he will waste no time whispering poison about us in Sulla's ear. Scaevola and the other optimates could intercede on our behalf, and as it was with Caesar, it may be enough for Sulla to reluctantly spare us. Still, such is not enough. We should be thinking ahead for how we could earn our way into Sulla's good graces and manipulate the situation to make Sulla tire of Pompey early on, if it comes to such.
As for Pompey, whatever else comes, I dread one scenario above all others. We must not let him become one of the First Triumvirate. If it reaches that stage, we will be one of the foremost entries Pompey places on the proscription lists.
Speaking of Caesar, he was originally targeted by Sulla's proscriptions, but Caesar's mother's family included supporters of Sulla, and they interceded on his behalf. Ultimately, Sulla did reluctantly spare Caesar.
It may be a similar situation for us. If Sulla returns, our association with Sertorius could well draw Sulla's wrath upon us, and should Pompey gain Sulla's favor, he will waste no time whispering poison about us in Sulla's ear. Scaevola and the other optimates could intercede on our behalf, and as it was with Caesar, it may be enough for Sulla to reluctantly spare us. Still, such is not enough. We should be thinking ahead for how we could earn our way into Sulla's good graces and manipulate the situation to make Sulla tire of Pompey early on, if it comes to such.
As for Pompey, whatever else comes, I dread one scenario above all others. We must not let him become one of the First Triumvirate. If it reaches that stage, we will be one of the foremost entries Pompey places on the proscription lists.
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