Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Original Historic
taovkool
Forever Gone
- Location
- The Library, Department of General Works
Just for the record, how far is the valley from Atellus current position? Because I get the impression that the main rebel base must not be that far from Geminus' camp.
By the way, where is that priestess now?
- Location
- Central Europe
Travel distance is not really the issue here. The issue is that attacking the valley could lead to either a prolonged siege or a costly assault ('Heart of Steel' trait makes it difficult to quickly break his army).
After that we woud still have to clean up the rest of the army and bring at least some order to region. If you don't intend to do the last two, then you really shouldn't bother with the valley of the Vulturnus in the first place. According to our latest information, Tercerian is barley keeping his army together and is in no position to expand into the territory around it.
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Given that Tercerian's forces outnumber us and are likely dug in I'd like to avoid getting into a fight with him right now. The fact that Sertorius wants us to reinforce him now also means we can't afford to spend to much time cleaning things up. I suggest marching back to Bovianum leaving our wounded and our weakest cohort there with Rufus to ensure nothing all to unexpected comes up while we're away. If everything goes well they can get a good start on rebuilding the roads and continue securing our supply lines. Then once Sertorius beats the main rebel force we can come back with the entire legion and finish off Tercerian while outnumbering him.
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
[] Kill them all.
--[] Have them executed by your men here and now.
This was a routine occurrence in Antiquity, there was no default code of honour of keeping prisoners of war alive. After a hard and bloody grind like this battle it was a near inevitability that things like this would happen.
I see this as a sacrifice of gratitude to Mars.
It would satiate the bloodlust of our soldiers and further forge our bonds with them.
We have a golden occasion to start gaining the loyalty of soldiers to us personally, we should make the most of it.
A 150 slaves is not worth that much at the financial levels of legions. Like, we have 20 legionnaires for each slave, it's an extra pay bonus, not a fortune. It's penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Absolute veto against crucifixion, it goes completely against the counter-insurgency doctrine we have followed for this campaign.
EDIT: Actually slavery is the choice with most disadvantages, see further downthread.
--[] Have them executed by your men here and now.
This was a routine occurrence in Antiquity, there was no default code of honour of keeping prisoners of war alive. After a hard and bloody grind like this battle it was a near inevitability that things like this would happen.
I see this as a sacrifice of gratitude to Mars.
It would satiate the bloodlust of our soldiers and further forge our bonds with them.
We have a golden occasion to start gaining the loyalty of soldiers to us personally, we should make the most of it.
A 150 slaves is not worth that much at the financial levels of legions. Like, we have 20 legionnaires for each slave, it's an extra pay bonus, not a fortune. It's penny-wise and pound-foolish.
EDIT: Actually slavery is the choice with most disadvantages, see further downthread.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
Not sure what I want to vote for yet, but a small payday makes sense. Probably leaving our injured plus one of the reduced cohorts behind also.
Very strong update though, especially the sacrifice scene. The whole thing was very well written.
Very strong update though, especially the sacrifice scene. The whole thing was very well written.
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- Location
- Central Europe
Holy shit, this roll:
Gemino even had the better overall modifiers than us for this... +8 for him vs +6 for us.
We rolled a Nat 20 here and it gave us a +4 (and Gemino a -4) for the rest of the battle. So, many rounds would have been lost or a lot closer, if we hadn't been this lucky at the start.
Gemino even had the better overall modifiers than us for this... +8 for him vs +6 for us.
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xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
It's not.
It's what the soldiers want.
If we want whole legions loyal to us, we have to show willingness to follow their will. That what we want is what they want.
This choice is a choice where blood is worth infinitely more than gold.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The soldiers don't necessarily want BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD.
somnolentSlumber
(Verified Proofreader)
- Location
- hell
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Indeed, wouldn't they prefer the more loot-providing option?
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
No, they want it because it's what happens to humans in the heat of battle, they want to kill the enemy, because they saw their comrades slain in front of their eyes. (though we should absolutely not discount in-game supernatural effects)
Also, the Samnites want to be killed too. True followers of Gemino would rather die standing on the battlefield than living in chains.
Too squeamish to go through with it? Fine, then choose to free them. Make a speech about our great mercifulness. This might actually win us some goodwill. Some may even switch allegiance, and having former rebels as advisers could be a crucial benefit. But that's uncertain, they could go back to the maquis just as well.
The slavery option is demeaning and humiliating. From a hearts and minds point of view, it's barely better than crucifixion. Actually it may be worse because crucifixion at least has a deterrent effect. It will not do any favours for our reputation among the Samnites. What a way to show them we want them as allies and not abject vassals. It's a dishonourable and shameful choice. It will probably bite us in the ass down the road, say if there is massive slave rebellion, in oh a decade and a half or so, and its genius gladiator leader has access to experienced warriors with a deep personal grudge against Quintus Cingulatus Atellus.
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Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
I'd say it would depend how pissed they are at Gemino's men. Loot they will get from the enemy's camp, but how much would the slaves get us?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The romans don't do human sacrifice. It's seen as barbarian.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
Yeah, but we have 150 potential slaves, give or take a few (that either die of their wounds, manage to escape, commit suicide or are made an example for their peers), how much money would that mean, practically? and then we need to divide that by our men, and at different shares due to rank, so I think it is going to be a negligible amount.
Making slaves out of them might be a more profound message than crucifixion, though. if you oppose Rome, death won't be your end, but servitude. for a people that seem to have a fondness for a death goddess, that could probably be the ultimate insult
Dunno, didn't they did one after Cannae? sure, that is over a hundred years in the past, but it isn't that long ago
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- Location
- The US
Where in the update does it say the soldiers would prefer killing the captured over selling them?
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
It does not, it's just the reality of battlefields.
Yes, I know I meant it metaphorically, not that there would be an actual religious ceremony on the field.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That notable exception, the response to which is used as evidence for a general distaste for the practice, is mentioned in the first line of the thing I linked.
Still, my phrasing was innacurate. It would have been better to say that there was a cultural stigma to it, no that romans "didn't do it".
- Location
- Hawaii
Starting with the epically successful augury to the tune of the Voice of Mars, this has been a great update. It was too bad about the Noble levy, but perhaps our results will speak for themselves. And yeah, Mercator came back to settle some old grudges with an additional cohort. Considering the limited size of the battlefield and fairly small army sizes, the Battle of the Tabelline Pass was fairly epic. Gemino was the superior commander, but Atellus' Gallic cavalry won an incredible scouting advantage, which allowed him to seize the initiative and negate Gemino's defensive advantage, partially by using his overconfidence against him. Pompolussa took the Second, our best troops, to start the battle and drawing aggro forcing Gemino to react.
Now forced into a field engagement, the Samnites' blood is up and they are in it to win it, even managing to drive Pompalossa back. All according to keikaku. Atellus springs the trap: a massive flanking attack from where Gemino had expected a frontal assault. The Gallic cavalry smash into the Samnite rear lines, followed bythree two cohorts of Romans, and it is only through Gemino's rapid reaction that his entire army did not crumble. Despite Atellus' army decisively winning the scouting and maneuver, the legendary Samnite tenacity comes into play; the battle dissolves into a back-and-forth grindfest for several long hours. It is only with Mercator's charge to glory that the Samnite morale breaks, turning into a rout. Gemino leads a breakout with a small force, likely the core of his veteran bandits, but Atellus runs him down with the Gallic cavalry.
Reading the first and final meeting between Atellus and Gemino gave me chills. Two men, fated enemies, set as foils to one another. One defeated, but defiant, the other, conquering astride a horse. Old and young, both clever commanders, one a legendary enemy of Rome and hero of Samnium, the other, a young Roman officer, enemy of Samnites who have won over their most intractable tribe. In the end, mutual respect, and "if only you had been one of us, victory would have been possible." When it comes down to it, perhaps it was how they viewed the other that made the real difference. Gemino, having received the prophecy from the sibyl, viewed Atellus as a fated foe, one capable of unmaking him. The outcome of a battle between them was in contention. While Atellus may have seen Gemino as his enemy, he knew Mars rode with him, and victory was assured. Gemino was a problem that needed to be solved, and it was not through personal fighting prowess, but stratagem, maneuver and betraying what was expected of him. While Mars rode with Atellus today, Minerva stood beside him always.
As an aside, Venixmaeus has a keen eye and a hell of a throwing arm, throwing a spear "halfway across the battlefield" and hitting his target in time to save Tercerus from a terminal case of sword-to-the-back (a worse ailment than arrow-to-the-knee). It's a good thing he is old, since he'll never live down the fact that he owes his life to a Gaul.
Getting to the options, what we do with our prisoners ties into our next move. Freeing the prisoners and securing the western towns might have good synergy. Field execution or crucifixion would make an example of them, or rile up the Samnites even more. Selling them into slavery would improve our finances and standing with the legion, but we must also consider the PR angle. Is it vae victis, and does that benefit our image of stern but fair? "You rebelled, I captured you, off to slavery you go." I'm not really feeling any prisoner choice in particular, so as a write-in:
[] Decimation: Have the prisoners draw lots. One in ten draws a short straw, and his lot-mates are to beat him to death. The rest may return to their homes.
Decimation is absolutely a Roman thing, and this is a symbolic acknowledgement that yes, you are now Romans, and you shall do Romans things. Since the victims are selected at random, they cannot be singled out as martyrs. Things left to chance were left to the will of the gods. "Are you arguing that the gods chose wrong? Are you saying that the Romans can deceive the gods? That's blasphemy!There's no way the Romans could do something so epic." "Plus, the Romans let nine of ten go, that's way more merciful than we expected from Romans." Also, the Romans aren't doing the killing in this instance, this makes the Samnites complicit, and their own sense of guilt may restrain them from future action. It is both mercy and cruelty; it is an execution reserved not for rebellious slaves, but for soldiers (citizens or future citizens).
Now forced into a field engagement, the Samnites' blood is up and they are in it to win it, even managing to drive Pompalossa back. All according to keikaku. Atellus springs the trap: a massive flanking attack from where Gemino had expected a frontal assault. The Gallic cavalry smash into the Samnite rear lines, followed by
Reading the first and final meeting between Atellus and Gemino gave me chills. Two men, fated enemies, set as foils to one another. One defeated, but defiant, the other, conquering astride a horse. Old and young, both clever commanders, one a legendary enemy of Rome and hero of Samnium, the other, a young Roman officer, enemy of Samnites who have won over their most intractable tribe. In the end, mutual respect, and "if only you had been one of us, victory would have been possible." When it comes down to it, perhaps it was how they viewed the other that made the real difference. Gemino, having received the prophecy from the sibyl, viewed Atellus as a fated foe, one capable of unmaking him. The outcome of a battle between them was in contention. While Atellus may have seen Gemino as his enemy, he knew Mars rode with him, and victory was assured. Gemino was a problem that needed to be solved, and it was not through personal fighting prowess, but stratagem, maneuver and betraying what was expected of him. While Mars rode with Atellus today, Minerva stood beside him always.
As an aside, Venixmaeus has a keen eye and a hell of a throwing arm, throwing a spear "halfway across the battlefield" and hitting his target in time to save Tercerus from a terminal case of sword-to-the-back (a worse ailment than arrow-to-the-knee). It's a good thing he is old, since he'll never live down the fact that he owes his life to a Gaul.
Getting to the options, what we do with our prisoners ties into our next move. Freeing the prisoners and securing the western towns might have good synergy. Field execution or crucifixion would make an example of them, or rile up the Samnites even more. Selling them into slavery would improve our finances and standing with the legion, but we must also consider the PR angle. Is it vae victis, and does that benefit our image of stern but fair? "You rebelled, I captured you, off to slavery you go." I'm not really feeling any prisoner choice in particular, so as a write-in:
[] Decimation: Have the prisoners draw lots. One in ten draws a short straw, and his lot-mates are to beat him to death. The rest may return to their homes.
Decimation is absolutely a Roman thing, and this is a symbolic acknowledgement that yes, you are now Romans, and you shall do Romans things. Since the victims are selected at random, they cannot be singled out as martyrs. Things left to chance were left to the will of the gods. "Are you arguing that the gods chose wrong? Are you saying that the Romans can deceive the gods? That's blasphemy!
Satar
Xetares, Third Redeemer; World Drinker
- Location
- Sesh
I'm against the prevailing mood here re: the rebels. Yes, yes, in antiquity murdering your captured or selling them into slavery was quite common. But I don't think that gruesome murders or cruxifictions will subdue the Samnites. Sulla was fond of such things, and yet he failed to bring these people to heel because their heart of steel fears no corpses.
But what did subdue them? What did we speak of at the Assembly of the Elders that convinced these men, long deeped in bitterness, to lay aside their dead and their lost to embrace a Roman peace? Food, peace, sons who did not have to grow up fighting an eternal war. The way to subduing the Samnites lies not in the stick, which we have demonstrated by defeating Gemino, but in the carrot.
Let the men go. A few hundred leaderless rebels will make no grand difference even should they turn to banditry and if they do so, after mercy from Rome, will rightly lose all native support for their cause. Gemino and those who supported him feared that they would be made slaves if Rome conquered, and being merciful and generous now is a good way to allay those anxieties. We should also go and properly bury Gemino, for he was a worthy foe.
[] Free them, and order them to return to their homes and farms. With Gemino gone, they are no longer a threat.
But what did subdue them? What did we speak of at the Assembly of the Elders that convinced these men, long deeped in bitterness, to lay aside their dead and their lost to embrace a Roman peace? Food, peace, sons who did not have to grow up fighting an eternal war. The way to subduing the Samnites lies not in the stick, which we have demonstrated by defeating Gemino, but in the carrot.
Let the men go. A few hundred leaderless rebels will make no grand difference even should they turn to banditry and if they do so, after mercy from Rome, will rightly lose all native support for their cause. Gemino and those who supported him feared that they would be made slaves if Rome conquered, and being merciful and generous now is a good way to allay those anxieties. We should also go and properly bury Gemino, for he was a worthy foe.
[] Free them, and order them to return to their homes and farms. With Gemino gone, they are no longer a threat.
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- Location
- Europe
Ah, I honestly regret that we never could put more emphasis on the worship of Mars. But alas, other things always got in the way. Besides, those auguries are cool as hell even without that.
Gaul, Samnite, Roman, Greek, all are people with different languages and they know him by a different name. But they know him, because war is as unseparable from man as Earth is from the sun.
And war is what Rome is. As seen here in Augustus' character sheet:
So GODDAMN COOL.
(Mars is totally jealous that the voters didn't choose his gift and shows us now what a mistake it was.)
I drink to that!
What if the legions abandoned you? Are you for real? We've been chasing that man since we came, you really think we just pack and leave when we don't catch him now and let all our effort go in vain?
Mercator is here, ready to smash some fools.
And I'm starting to like Himatus, I hope for some cool interactions with him in the future.
Oh boy, I hope we start paying respect to both Minerva and Mars who are clearly our patron gods. And maybe Apollon, too, considering we tend to roll that goddamn high on important speeches.
We did what Sulla could not. And in the end, I'm not even angry with him. Pass on, Gemino of the Pentri, we could only triumph through numbers.
Our first great enemy beaten on the battlefield.
Makes me think we want to go to Bovianum first, and also to indulge us with a small victory parade through a jubilant city. The man who starved the people is dead.
Holy shit, some of those rolls...
It's rank 7 for command. We are already on rank 6. (Theoretically we are close enough to buy the rank up, but since it won't provide us with a better modifier it's unnecessary.)
Ok, pacifying the towns would be nice, but since we'll move to Nola soon we would either need to station men here to protect them from the predation of the Vulturnus rebels, or leave them to their fate afterwards. We can save them once we are in the clear in the south. Or we tell the Pentri to do it, but who knows how that turns out.
Marching into the valley with our wounded? To fight a rather unimportant battle in the grand scheme of things? Pass, Tercerian will get his when we are done with Meddix.
Bovianum I favour. Don't want to lose Pompolussa.
Also, not in favour of killing, it's not like we didn't already make a statement of how we bring law to these lands. Either we let them go or sell them into slavery.
Unless someone has a better idea.
(Also we want to be at Nola before our augury runs out.)