Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Original Historic
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Personally, I have a certain admiration for incorrigible, incorruptible, irascible old sons-of-a-gun, and Cato was the granddaddy of them all.
Admittedly, the problem with Cato was that while he was too stubborn to be corrupted, he was also too stubborn to change things in order to fix them.
Hmm, looking this over...
The real problem with this is that the Marian legions make good coup troops not because you need to convince the leaders, but because the men are dependent on their general's political success to get the land that serves as their retirement plan. It doesn't matter how many officers or units there are under a general like Pompey if each individual soldier is counting on Pompey, personally, to secure their "forty acres and a mule" at the end of their stint in the legions. Because they'll cheerfully murder a bunch of Pompey's patrician rivals to make sure they have a farm to retire to with their children at age fifty, instead of being on the streets or slaving away (perhaps literally) on someone else's plantation.
[Swap out Pompey for any other major Roman general if you like, the principle remains]
- Location
- The Philippines
Exactly why I want to establish the party of the moderates: to curb the abuses that we can curb, to aid the Roman people where we can without pissing off the upper classes like the equites too much, to establish the peace and justice of Rome across the lands under its imperium. For are we not all the children of Rome, and do not the children of Rome deserve justice?
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- Location
- France
It doesn't, most early Emperor became emperor because of the populares support.
- Location
- Europe
Exactly. Atellus is 18 right now. He has a long political career before him which can always change his beliefs.
Besides, we can always ensure that each and everyone's voice can be heard from high above them, as the fair and just judge.
(We would be more equal than the others in that case.
)
- Location
- The Philippines
It doesn't. Gaius Marius is a popularis, and so is Julius Caesar.
It's just that in public we are the client of the optimate Scaevola who believes in the traditions of the Republic and stands against the demagoguery of the Marians, and in private we believe that the people of Rome deserve justice and a voice in the workings of the Republic, so it is naturally in character for us to believe deeply in the worth of Rome as a Republic.
- Location
- France
...Really? Uh, Well I don't actually believe in the worth of Rome as a republic, as I said, I believe it to be impossible to administrate a territory the size of Rome Empire in the current time, as it is, Keeping a republic will either make it worse for every non-citizens living in the Empire, or end up like the Hellens.
If Rome survive long enough I could see the republic making a come back though, which is why I want to lay the foundation of a lasting empire.
Someone would probably knock out the Republic after we die in any case...
Anyways, let us not get into that debat right now, we have a long time before deciding anything related to that.
- Location
- The Philippines
You may not, but Atellus probably does.
Rome may fall to the rule of kings in a generation or ten after us, but while we live we will not let it!
FILII ROMAE LIBERAE SUMUS! NON REGEM ROMA VULT!
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I just want to make sure that on the one hand, none of us actually think we speak for a quest-wide "we" in agreeing what we want for Quintus Atellus want... While at the same time, let's nobody get too defensive about the idea that other people are trying to speak for the 'we.' There's a lot of diversity of opinion here, and that's probably for the best, especially right now.
Me, my heart sings a bit louder at the idea of "No kings in Rome" than at the idea of "Quintus Atellus, emperor." But that's me.
Me, my heart sings a bit louder at the idea of "No kings in Rome" than at the idea of "Quintus Atellus, emperor." But that's me.
- Location
- France
Well, for one, nip hereditary Emperorship in the bud by codifying an elective Monarchy style of selection that hopefully Augustus can pick up on and expend properly.
Laying a common Roman identity troughout the Empire is also an important thing, giving citizenship to everyone within our lifetime is an impossibility, and in fact not something we want as long as we are a republic, but making step in that direction by making the Romans more accepting of non-romans and making Romans less hated by local population would once again lay foundation on which I hope Augustus can build.
Right now that's all I have at the top of my head.
There is quite a few problems with this, like who can elect the Emperor? Who is eligible to become Emperor? How to make sure the election don't become corrupted? Etc etc...
But if people are willing to help find solution I am sure we can work out something.
You may not, but Atellus probably does.
That is kind of Rude, considering that Atellus is us, are you saying my(and several others) opinion isn't even in consideration?
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- Location
- The US
As I recall, it's the Optimates who are way more likely to be traditional republicans, although viewing the Optimates and Populares as like modern political parties is a bit of a trap
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- Location
- The Philippines
I'm sorry I offended you, that wasn't what I was implying. I didn't mean to be rude. I was just thinking that, as an idealistic young man who believes in the ideal of justice for the commoners and under the tutelage of a traditionalist like Scaevola, the idea of saving the republic seems natural for the character of Atellus.
I apologize again for any disrespect I may have committed against you and other voters here.
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- Location
- Texas
It...varies. Cato was an Optimate, and was the staunchest Republican to ever Republican. On the other hand, Caesar, a lifelong populare, claimed to only want to reform the Republic, and refused monarchy several times. And, in the end, it was the populares who ended up making the widespread reforms that saved the Roman state, even if they damned the Republic in the process.
And yes, they aren't exactly political parties, and aren't even sides in the strictest sense, more descriptions of how a Senator chose to operate, and whether he drew his support from the masses or the entrenched nobility.
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- Location
- France
I'm sorry I offended you, that wasn't what I was implying. I didn't mean to be rude. I was just thinking that, as an idealistic young man who believes in the ideal of justice for the commoners and under the tutelage of a traditionalist like Scaevola, the idea of saving the republic seems natural for the character of Atellus.
I apologize again for any disrespect I may have committed against you and other voters here.
No problem really, it's just that we are the ones with the power of decision over Atellus, and as an 18 years old he can change and form his own opinion anyways. There is no inevitability here
Here, have hug *hug*
*shrug*can't be worse than trying to figure out how to make a republic work really.
Perhaps you could have an assembly of the most accomplished man of Rome and have them choose a ruler between themselves? Maybe the most accomplished youth because otherwise the emperor would have to change every decades? If they can't choose have them compete with each in a variety of competition to decide who is best?
I don't know, I am open to ideas.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
Hmm. Spitballing here, but what about extending the cursus honorium all the way to the office of Emperor-Elect (Edit: to be clear, this is the current heir, the Emperor once appointed serves for life), which is held for a single five year or so term? If the current Emperor dies, you get a new 40-ish Emperor, and new Emperor-Elect is chosen for (his) five year term?
Failure modes include emperors dying every five years by falling onto multiple poisoned knives. And the Emperor-elect office being horsetraded like others.
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I could see that working that's not the problem, the issue is political. A republic has tradition associated with it and there were still quite a few people who wanted to maintain it and seizing power through your armies has the virtue of simplicity but making an elective monarchy popular with Romans seems like a long shot.
- Location
- France
It is a good idea, except that it is going to be very, very Hard to push for major reform with so little time in power, I think restricting successor to below 30 years old is a must and having the post be for life probably would work better, how the emperor is chosen is bery important though.
Canon Omake: Councils of War
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Councils of War
"Congratulations on securing the loyalty of the Pentri," Sertorius says in his letter. "Flatten the rebels and meet me at Nola, that we may put an end to this war," he says. But at least one Pentri of note remains adamantly disloyal, and defiantly lumpy- Gemino.
You frown slightly, picking up one of the wooden markers spread across the map pinned to your campaign table, moved out into the fresh air and sunlight for now. Hm. Gemino has avoided contact with the legion for over a week, and you're eating the foundation of his strength out from under him. You've consolidated many of your existing gains, so perhaps it's time to push Roman influence further out.
Your musings are interrupted by a trotting horse. Not walking, trotting. That is rare inside the camp, straight up Main Street and this close to your headquarters. One of the still-undisciplined Gauls, perhaps?
The red hair might belong to a Gaul, but the face beneath it does not. Rufus dismounts hastily, handing the reins of his horse to a soldier, and trots up to you. He doesn't normally rush this way. Something has got him very excited. Or worried. Probably worried, you realize as he approaches.
"Word for you-" despite the tension in his face, he smiles slightly with cheerful amusement at the irony- "from the trader in black."
You can feel the sudden flash of interest reach your eyes. Rufus has been doing his own work to cultivate informants. And one of his best is Vettus the charcoal merchant. The man who sells charcoal to many of Bovianum's great households- including Marcus Himatus's- has an impeccable reason to give himself opportunities to pass messages to you. He also, by the very nature of his business, has dozens of contacts scattered through the countryside for miles around Bovianum, who know the woods intimately.
But Rufus's face is deadly serious. "Gemino is gathering his men and preparing to march."
"On Bovianum?" That would be folly, what could he be thinking?
Rufus shakes his head. "No. On Aesernia."
Oh. You... hadn't thought of that. The thought of such a gambit had hardly even crossed your mind. But now that you think about it... when you realize what a man like Gemino could do with the sheer numbers and mass of Tercerian's shambolic mass of a rebel 'army' to whip into shape...
Oh.
"Rufus- thank you." You clasp your bookish comrade's hand. "I'll gather the troops. We may have to get every last Roman on the march, and quickly- if I do, can you keep Bovianum in hand while I deal with this?"
The redheaded tribune shrugs, then smiles. "One Roman, alone amid the teeming hordes of Samnites- beset by their lawyers and crotchety old tribal elders. What could possibly go wrong? You'll come back to the best-reformed set of courts Italy has ever seen. Just watch and learn, Quintus."
"You're trying to needle me."
"Not at all. Confidence, that's the ticket! It worked for you, maybe it'll work for me too. But we must be off, I know, I know." Rufus nods, and turns back to his horse. He's right. No time for games; you'll have to move quickly. You can hear your genius counseling you, in its many voices.
Leave the auxiliaries, and a cohort, to secure the rear against treachery. The Ninth, who fell for Gemino's tricks before, murmurs the sometimes-heeded earth.
Leave only half a cohort, to stiffen the auxiliaries. Let them guard the towns. Three centuries will be enough. Some of the Sixth, whispers the sometimes-heeded sky.
Leave nothing- no half measures, put an end to this with all your strength and all that you can gather, come the words, in a reassuring voice that speaks softly with an undertone of clattering dice.
One notion or the other, or the third- which you're starting to like, now that you think about it. You give orders to your messengers, summoning your cohorts back to you, then stride away from your headquarters, to the tents of the ironically named 'natives-' the Gallic mercenaries.
Already composing in your head the letter you plan to write, as if it was a speech, you stride up to the little camp-within-a-camp that houses the Gauls. You are greeted before the rows of tents by Veniximaeus, flanked by two of his cavalrymen.
One is slim and wiry, young even to your eyes- but you remember him. He has the build of a jockey, which is exactly what you need right now, though you're surprised that the Gallic commander had brought him up with himself to meet you.
The other man, you recognize only for his height and bulk. His name still escapes you. The man stands even taller than his leader, who is of uncommon size and strength himself. You're half impressed they found a horse strong enough to carry him. You turn to the smaller one, though.
"Ah, and here I was afraid I'd have to go looking for you!" You wave to the three men as you stride closer.
"Oh! This what you called me for?" Gobanitio asks Veniximaeus. He sounds eager, cocky. The older man nods, but he's looking at you, not his little countryman.
"Aye. I saw the Romans' part of the camp all astir, and I thought to myself, what could be happening? I expect you need a good, fast horseman or six?"
You give the Gauls an easy smile that mirrors their own expressions, falling into the freewheeling role they expect of you with surprising ease. "I'm marching to battle. Gemino's gotten off his ass at last, to try and take command of the Vulturnus rebels and turn them against us."
The Gauls make surprised faces at that, though Veniximaeus appears less surprised by the sudden turn of events. You suppose that no man can serve Rome as a mercenary for two generations without getting used to the strange bedfellows Fortune makes.
Then you go on. "Now, some might choose to fort up and wait for four thousand Samnites to come roaring down on us. Me, I aim to bang some heads together and teach Gemino not to play such games. If we have all the fun to ourselves, so be it; but I think I owe it to Sertorius to see if any of his half of the legion have the belly for a quick brawl before the main event at Nola. Gobanitio, you won the last horse race."
The bigger of the two Gallic soldiers snorts. "That's right, and didn't you fine him for knocking over that vegetable cart, chief?"
You smile. "I did. But ask him the size of the purse he won from me for being the quickest. Now, Gobanitio, how fast do you think you could ride to Sertorius's camp with a letter from me?"
Rewarding the fastest Gaul in that impromptu race even as you fined them for the incidental property damages was Tercerus' idea, as you don't have to admit to the Gauls. As your father's old servant put it weeks ago, "On campaign, there are a lot of things a man can find himself in need of, but a fast rider on a fast horse is one of the most important."
Gobanitio is plainly thinking it over, looking at the sun in the sky. "Hmm... Might take me two days, chief. Might take me three."
"The purse you won from me before? You'll have six times that if you come back with Sertorius' answer to my letter in three days. Twelve times, if you make it in two. Just get your horse ready, then come to the praetorium and wait while I write the letter."
Veniximaeus laughs. "Maybe I should send a few of the lads along, then?"
"If they can keep up." You strike a somewhat twisted form of one of your oratorical poses, gesturing your confidence at Gobanitio, whose eyes widen a bit as he turns to tend to his horse.
The bigger of the two Gallic soldiers who came with Veniximaeus scratches his head for a moment. Then he looks at you. "Hey, I have an idea, chief!"
In the freespoken way of his people, probably thinks he's being polite, though he looks amused at the idea of calling a smaller fellow about his own age 'chief.' You nod for him to go on regardless; tolerating a certain amount of this silliness is part and parcel of winning the barbarians' loyalty. Veniximaeus, for his part, is eyeing the brawny warrior with the long mane of brown hair, as though weighing and judging him.
The tall man continues. "So Gemino goes to challenge the chief up in the valley to the west- Tercerian? No relation of your man's, is he?" You grin at the crude jest and shake your head.
"So what if we join up with this Tercerian, to squash Gemino. The enemy of my enemy... is my friend." He lays a finger alongside his nose, smiling at his cleverness.
A look crosses Veniximaeus' face for a moment. You wish that by some divine gift of artistry, you could capture that ephemeral expression, a sketch or a painting formed in an instant. You'd caption it The Effective Mercenary, and it'd be one for the ages, you just know it somehow.
Then he laughs and tosses his head, and slaps the young cavalryman on the back. "Do yourself a favor, Segovax; don't get tangled up trying to play at Romish trickery. It'd be the death of you. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, and no less."
You nod once again- you agree with the older Gaul.
And besides, it's by far the straighter course. A Gaul wouldn't care about the slaughter of Roman citizens in Vulturnus. But you? You could never let Tercerian live, after what he's done. It might be convenient to have his help to defeat your own personal rival, Gemino, but then you'd have to turn on your former ally.
The letter is off, sealed tightly in a case around Gobanitio's neck; your messengers recalling the cohorts to the camp to ready for the march have been sent. You stretch, readying yourself for bed, and take one last chance to speak with Tercerus, about your battle plans.
"Pompolussa thinks we can brick up all our enemies in the valley of the Vulturnus, and then it won't matter what they do; we'll have them in a jar. Three centurions from the Ninth are bouncing up and down and talking about besieging Gemino inside Aesernia."
Tercerus simply looks levelly at you. "And what do you think?"
"I'd like to think we can win this with siegecraft, but Sertorius needs us at Nola. There isn't time to starve out an army that's had this much time to plunder the countryside, and whether Gemino beats Tercerian and takes his troops or not, he'll have access to Tercerian's granaries either way. I think this one's going to come down to a battle in the open field."
You pause for a moment, musing. "So the question is, which Samnite army do I attack- Gemino with his thousand men, or Tercerian with his three thousand? Tercerian's obviously the stronger, but Gemino's played some merry games with us before..."
Tercerus tilts his head. "Well, who would you rather wrestle with? A hundred and thirty pound Greek in top shape, or a flabby four hundred pound Thracian?"
That doesn't take you long to think about, despite the legendary skill of the Greeks as wrestlers. "The Greek. Especially if, should I choose the Thracian, the Greek circles around at my back with a rock in his fist."
The smile on the old man's face says Lucius Cingulatus raised no fools, nor did I.. Then the leathery old veteran speaks. "Hmp. I think we'll be just fine."
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- Location
- Aotearoa
The Emperor is for life. Their designated successor is a cursus honorium post held for an (age) limited time.
Or did you mean hard for us, Atellus, to push through reforms with a single Consulship?
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- Location
- France
Uh, that is actually a pretty good idea. Hummmm, perhaps with a caveat that if the Emperor is assassinated during the time you are the successor, a new successor will be chosen? Because, you know, Roman.
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