- Location
- Norway
"Somewhat" being maybe twenty years longer.
Also you need it to be more about causes and principles, less about Sulla and Marius.
Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome
- Thread starter Telamon
- Start date
- Original Historic
Also you need it to be more about causes and principles, less about Sulla and Marius.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The flip side of that is that if we're going to metagame like that (not necessarily a bad thing), we can't just assume that the QM would only offer up strategies likely to lead to a good outcome, or that major predictable bad consequences won't happen because Sertorius would be a fool to get suckered into such a situation. If you vote to advise a friend to walk up to the lion and put their head in between its jaws, the result is predictable in the unlikely event that they follow your device.
More generally, unless we assume the description of the Carcellan strategem is lying, there simply is not much room in the plan for Sertorius to send large forces or forces under his personal leadership into or around the countryside around Nola. A cohort or two, but not the legion or even half of it. That's just the geometry and geography.
Oh, it's not a trap. It's a clear description of consequences:
1) It ensures the legion is safe and well-supplied, at the cost of making it considerably easier for the enemy to recover their strength.
2) IF we elect to leave blocking forces on the roads, it also exposes those blocking forces to a lot of obvious risk- but again, preserves the safety of the legion. We can't really avoid that; it's in the nature of the decision 'leave a cohort or so behind to block the roads' to expose that cohort we leave behind to risks. Especially since I doubt there are any convenient hillsides or anything that we can trigger as avalanches to block the roads.
My point is, THAT is the argument for the Carcellan strategem: it reduces existential risk to the legion. If things go poorly for us this turn we will in all likelihood have at least a turn or two before things get really bad (one turn in a few weeks after harvest, another as winter really sets in). But it's true that if we have repeated bad turns, the situation under the Pompolussan strategem could get pretty bad, potentially.
It parallels the situation we were in at Bovianum in some ways: we'll have to take turns and steps to pacify the surrounding countryside and procure/secure food shipments, and work to keep the supply line open, through the upcoming winter.
We might actually be better off sending the Hirpini home for the winter. Now that the legion is reunited, we really don't need that extra manpower just to maintain the siege. And frankly, it would simplify our supply problems quite a bit.
I'm fine with this, what I object to is the representation of the "detach a cohort or so to block the roads around Nola" plan as anything other than a major risk to the detachments we release. No amount of 'but scouts!' or 'but Sertorius is smart!' will negate the reality that small detachments of your army much closer to the enemy than to yourself will always be in greater danger.
I think that the "lots of Meddix's men desert" outcome is far, far disproportionately 'lucky' than te "Plan Pompolussa gradually grinds up the enemy's strength. Plese don't equate them in that exact way. One is the plan working as foreseen and specifically intended by its designers, the other is a purely speculative possible benefit that is only going to happen if Meddix's army has very poor morale, something we have no specific reason to expect.If everything goes well, then Plan 'Digging In' will end this campaign over the winter by starving the Samnites our. Then again IF everything went well with Carcellan, then the looser siege around Nola could lead to many warriors abandoning Meddix. Who knows? (The QM, obiviously)
Honestly, it's both. Beneventum is twenty miles away, closer than it was for us at Bovianum, but as we saw before, guerillas can certainly attack a twenty-mile supply line. "Outriders" is very much important for the success of the Pompolussan strategem, simply because it reduces the threat of guerilla activity in our rear and on our supply line.
Again, this is the part of the plan difference I respect. I agree that the Carcellan strategem is lower-risk, in the sense of less likelihood of Bad Stuff happening to the legion. My concerns are one, that the subvote option means greater risk of Bad Stuff happening to the isolated detachments we're dangling out under Meddix's nose... And two, that by disengaging from the Samnites entirely, we expose ourselves to greater risks in the spring. Time to operate freely, or even close to freely, in the middle of Samnium is almost certainly going to do more for Meddix than for us.
If he can flip the Hirpini, which is a distinct possibility, then he would enjoy an overwhelming numerical advantage over us with even slight reinforcement. Moreover, reinforcements for Meddix are likely to come from the local surrounding area, which means they're likely to come from places in a good position to smuggle food into Nola and prolong its resistance.
By the same token, a gap in the siege during the winter also lets Meddix smuggle noncombatants OUT of the city and into the countryside, which may prolong his capacity for resistance.
We still have a whole year to besiege Nola under the Pompolussan strategem. It's not like we're going to have to turn round and go away in April or whatever.
If our cohort is split up into centuries, Meddix can send multiple 500-man columns out along all the roads out of Nola and hit all of them at once.
It wouldn't be a defeat in detail for the whole legion, that's not really in the cards. But what it comes down to is that nothing less than the whole legion (or half the legion plus a big auxiliary force) is strong enough to keep the Samnites bottled up in Nola without risking getting pasted. Especially not with Meddix commanding the Samnites and some underling of Sertorius commanding the Romans.
We're still risking the detachments, and they're still vulnerable under any circumstance where their presence annoys the Samnites significantly.
[x] Plan Wait Out The Winter And Be Productive
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
Not sure about thefirst, but the second can be done via shifting things within the city of Rome itself so it becomes more of an ideological argument. Maybe."Somewhat" being maybe twenty years longer.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Funny you should later mention Augustus. I mean these guys.
Well, if we're talking 'reform into an empire' level of political reform, I can think of one potential way to get a lesser version of the concept off the ground. Essentially, play it like Mexico's Community Police. While the Senate will very likley cry populism, so long as they don't actually mess with local government, aid law enforcement, and in general have a deft hand working them from the shadows, they can't bring too much force against them.
... I was about to ask why that was a thing, then I remembered Roman Senators didn't usually care about the plebs.
yeah no, that's a bad idea.
- Location
- Central Europe
I honestly envy your drive to keep discussion going (It has done this quest a lot of good!), but I don't have your energy for long posts. So here are the three things in your post I wanted to touch on the most:
I think you miss the point that our 500 men blocking force is not meant to engage sallies in strength. Especially not those probably rare ones led by Meddix himself.
Glad we can agree on that, the rest is really up for the majority to weigh up and decide. As I said if the majority wants to go for a winter siege, then lets do it. I don't disagree with you. Plan Digging In has a significantly higher chance to win this siege quickly.
Yes, and? Why did you quote me there? Just to state the obvious? Did you think I (or anyone else) thought differently? I honestly think that this detracts from your otherwise, overall well-made argument.
Yes, our scouts could roll a Nat 1 and miss thousands of Samnites leaving Nola to annihilate the 6 centuries we would disperse throughout the region.
I think you miss the point that our 500 men blocking force is not meant to engage sallies in strength. Especially not those probably rare ones led by Meddix himself.
- Location
- Aotearoa
Not for the Senator, or the winning bidder, which seems to be rather the central point.
- Location
- Texas
Not for the Senator, or the winning bidder, which seems to be rather the central point.
Yeah, there's a reason the Bible and other contemporary sources treat tax collectors as being worse than prostitutes, murderers, and thieves. These companies, the publicani, would literally milk entire provinces dry, taxing as heavily as they needed to in order to make a profit, and then some. And then the Senator in charge of the province might tax them again to fund his wars/construction projects/orgies/because he could, meaning the people of places like Judea and the Eastern provinces, which had few Roman citizens (and as such, no one who cared enough to champion them in the Senate) would often end up without two denarii to rub together. And then the Senate itself might tax them even further — blood from a stone, indeed.
In the core provinces, things weren't much better — in fact, they were only compounded by the problem of all the young men in Italia being snapped up into the army, losing their farms to wealthy landowners while off at war because they weren't there to tend them, and returning home only to join the growing pool of Rome's homeless.
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Tax farming is generally used whenever there isn't a sufficient bureaucracy, nor ability/desire to create a bureaucracy, to handle tax collection. It runs into a lot of problems, but it has the "advantage" of being very straightforward for the people in charge.
- Location
- Norway
Footnote: "Tax collectors", while historically correct and standard, is perhaps not the best translation into common present-day usage. Modern tax collection has changed significantly, while something much like the publicans has been reinvented elsewhere.
For a different comparison to possibly elucidate why this practice is so hated but also maintains legitimacy in its time, think perhaps in terms of asset forfeiture: The police power in some countries to seize money and goods obtained through criminal activity.
(Or which looks like it was probably obtained through criminal activity, or which the cop thinks was going to be used for criminal activity, or which someone else used for criminal activity at some point, or the cop just doesn't like your stupid face and decides to take your stuff and say that it was stolen goods...)
It's hard to object to the police being able to take the criminals' stuff, right?
In the only moderately bad countries, stuff confiscated this way is destroyed or sold to contribute to the general national budget. In the very bad countries like America, stuff confiscated by the police this way goes to the police department's own budget, resulting in horrible incentives for corruption and a conflict of interests.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
There is plenty that can be said about that horrid practice, but this isn't right place for that, so I'll be quiet.In the only moderately bad countries, stuff confiscated this way is destroyed or sold to contribute to the general national budget. In the very bad countries like America, stuff confiscated by the police this way goes to the police department's own budget, resulting in horrible incentives for corruption and a conflict of interests.
- Location
- Europe
Or in short, the late Roman republic is terrible and regardless of what we choose, be it becoming emperor or somehow trying to keep a semblance of republicanism, the system needs reforms, badly.
Or else Rome implodes and no one wants that.
We should totally become emperor, just saying.
Or else Rome implodes and no one wants that.
We should totally become emperor, just saying.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
The Publicani are partly to blame for the war in Asia. Greeks in Anatolia and Greece were utterly financially ruined by the extortionist practices of the Publicani and their ilk, who sucked some of the richest provinces of the Republic dry for their own gain. It's why the Late Republic is generally considered a time of economic contraction in much of the Mediterranean- these places were literally being looted to poverty by Rome. The situation far improved in the Empire due to the reforms of Emperors and real stability, even if punctuated by the occasional civil war.
In the case of Asia, the abuse engendered an Anti-Roman feeling that manifested in an absolutely vicious campaign of ethnic cleansing that Mithridates hopped on in order to gain support. Around Anatolia Greeks slaughtered anyone associated with the Romans. It was brutal, unpleasant, and a last desperation. It didn't work, as you can see.
In the case of Asia, the abuse engendered an Anti-Roman feeling that manifested in an absolutely vicious campaign of ethnic cleansing that Mithridates hopped on in order to gain support. Around Anatolia Greeks slaughtered anyone associated with the Romans. It was brutal, unpleasant, and a last desperation. It didn't work, as you can see.
ThatGuyWithIdeas
Treize died for our sins
- Location
- Romania
[X] Plan Digging In
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Even the reformers rarely cared about the Roman periphery, pretty much. Their interest was in making sure more Italians got more of the loot, not that the entire system of looting the classical world was fucked top to bottom.
- Location
- The Philippines
On the one hand, I like the ideals of a republic. On the other, fucking hell I'm starting to see why emperorship is not only appealing but almost practically necessary.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
Obviously we should break up The Roman Republic into something like the United States where you have local/state governments self-governing while you have a larger/federal government handling things as a whole.
Each state has a representative they send off to the capital itself where the federal government is, with representatives and local gov heads switching off every 10 years or if one died. They're both equal in power...like Consuls, so I guess this makes them subconsuls.
So as to ensure loyalty to Rome itself, any political leader would have to go a qualified school within the capital itself from the ages of 10 to 16. Said school, with dormitory structure, would encourage them to discard/hide/ignore where they come from as they are forged into true romans. Once they graduated, they could then enter their local coursus honorem.
So as to prevent bitching/civil war, a Subconsul is considered equivalent to a local senator (more well regarded even) so if you climb the ranks back home, you don't start at the bottom again.
The school itself, besides acting as some nice brainwashing loyalty intensification to prevent civil war, would formally train people to actually rule well, and also give an easy way to block off rising stars from ascension if they didn't pass through the conditioning first. Also give an easy causus belli if they try to take over a region without said schooling.
Given the size of the empire, might have to be more than one school though. So as to prevent a schism erupting into civil war between two schools, either 3 schools (with one in the capital itself) or seven throughout the empire.
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Frankly though, I'veonly got the slightest idea how the Roman government worked, so for all I know, much of this is already in place.
Each state has a representative they send off to the capital itself where the federal government is, with representatives and local gov heads switching off every 10 years or if one died. They're both equal in power...like Consuls, so I guess this makes them subconsuls.
So as to ensure loyalty to Rome itself, any political leader would have to go a qualified school within the capital itself from the ages of 10 to 16. Said school, with dormitory structure, would encourage them to discard/hide/ignore where they come from as they are forged into true romans. Once they graduated, they could then enter their local coursus honorem.
So as to prevent bitching/civil war, a Subconsul is considered equivalent to a local senator (more well regarded even) so if you climb the ranks back home, you don't start at the bottom again.
The school itself, besides acting as some nice
Given the size of the empire, might have to be more than one school though. So as to prevent a schism erupting into civil war between two schools, either 3 schools (with one in the capital itself) or seven throughout the empire.
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Frankly though, I'veonly got the slightest idea how the Roman government worked, so for all I know, much of this is already in place.
xa na xa
A.E.I.O.U. - Antarticae est imperare orbi universo
- Location
- σ Octantis
[X] Plan Digging In
-[X] Spend 950 free XP on Diplomacy to level up
-[X] The Pompolussan Stratagem
-[1] Outriders
-[2] A Matter of Allies
-[3] Blessed by Mars
-[1] Old One-Eye
-[2] Bonds of Brotherhood
-[3] Write Home:
--[X] Scaevola
--[X] Cicero
-[4] Study Logistics
-[5] Study Finance
-[X] The Pompolussan Stratagem
-[1] Outriders
-[2] A Matter of Allies
-[3] Blessed by Mars
-[1] Old One-Eye
-[2] Bonds of Brotherhood
-[3] Write Home:
--[X] Scaevola
--[X] Cicero
-[4] Study Logistics
-[5] Study Finance
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Thing is, that was actually pretty close to "commonly accepted best practices" throughout the history of the world on much of the planet. With premodern technology, transportation and communication were so limited that it could be practically impossible for foreigners to directly govern a population without, in essence, tax farming.
Basically, you as the king designate that guy, yeah that guy over there who already has enough roughhewn muscular types to coerce the rest of the locals. His job is to collect the taxes, specifically to hand you a fixed sum of money every year. He owes you a sum every year, and in return, he gets the promise that anyone who manages to stop his legbreakers from collecting the taxes will have to answer to the royal army.
That way, you get a fixed income stream, and since he's overcharging the peasants so blatantly he has his own palace which means you know where to go looking for him if he stops paying you.
And this is actually more practical than the alternative for a typical ancient/medieval imperial government. Because frankly, anywhere more than a hundred miles from the imperial capital they speak a weird dialect your agents can barely understand, the peasants are all illiterate and can't even read written notices or keep written accounts and like it that way, and the record-keeping practices are execrable. Even if the peasants broadly acknowledge your right to tax them directly, they have so much power for passive-aggressive resistance, selective deafness, and noncompliance, while you have so much trouble making your will known and holding together a system capable of enforcing it. You may well actually wind up with less money trying to run a tax collection system yourself.
Directly administering a large domain with ancient technology and social conditions is so hard that it's a huge incentive towards feudalism, tax-farming imperialism, city-states, and any other form of government that results in on one person having to directly run or administer a land area much larger than he can travel across in a day.
Quote box hiccup. I planned to reply something like "we have all next year to win the siege anyway, because the Pompolussan stratagem doesn't somehow cause all our siege equipment to turn into pumpkins in March of next year or something." The big problem is that the Carcellan stratagem effectively mashes a 'reset' button on the siege; Nola won't stay cumulatively weakened by this year's siege if it isn't kept bottled up over the winter.
Meddix could certainly ride out at the head of, say, a thousand picked men.
Also, "is not meant to" is nowhere near the same thing as "will not have to." I mean, sure, the plan will no doubt be that if 80 or 160 of our men see several hundred Samnites charging down on them, they'll run away. But our men are heavy infantry burdened by bulky equipment, they don't know the terrain as well as the Samnites, and the Samnites may well still have some cavalry. Probably not enough to matter in a full-scale battle, after being in a besieged city so long, but possibly enough to matter in a skirmish with only a few hundred men on each side.
You can't just send isolated infantry companies to loiter around in the vicinity of a "besieged" enemy brigade-strength force, obstructing road traffic, and expect nothing to go wrong. Especially not when the rest of your own brigate is 15-20 miles away and has to travel on foot.
I'm starting to come around to this idea. It's not that I prefer autocracies to republics per se, but the Roman Republic in particular simply didn't have enough of the legal and bureaucratic 'technology' it would have taken to administer anything remotely like a decent government over the whole Mediterranean.
It wasn't a modern democratic nation-state, it was a city-state on POWERTHIRST!
The thing is, the Senate wouldn't support this because it decentralizes Rome's political power, and the provinces would just take their provincial governments and constantly stage all the rebellions. We'd have to break the Senate and, in effect, become an emperor to make anything like this happen, and it would tend to destabilize in the long run anyway, especially whenever different provinces became governed by political rivals.
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Far to a-historical to ever be viable/realistic.
- Location
- Texas
Romans were exceedingly selfish. Even the most radical reformers like Catiline and the Gracchi were concerned only with Italia and Rome itself. The Julio-Claudian idea of extending the franchise of citizenship to Gaul and other provinces was almost unthinkable, and granting every person in the empire citizenship took hundreds of years to even be thinkable.
My next Roman Histories post is going to be on the Cursus Honorum and the positions involved, which is essentially a rundown of how Late Republican government is run.
On second thought, I might just make an overall 'Roman Government' series of three or so posts covering the Republican government, the publicani, and the election system.