Pro Patria (Valkyria Chronicles)

The effectiveness of artillery in urban combat is sort of so-so. It frequently fails to kill or dislodge fortified enemies and tends to create more wreckage that can be used as cover. Time has more value.

The artillery would be rather effective at keeping the destroyers at bay, though.
 
Last edited:
This is... a very not good position for us. Our armor advantage is all but nonexistent in the city, especially since we know for certain that they have their 80mm anti tank guns. Cavalier is right. We can't give them time to reorganize the militia and reservists. Even low quality troops tend to have quite a bit more backbone in defensive actions like this, especially stiffened up by regulars, and doubly so with elite troops like marines. The battleship also offers a large amount of semi impractical oppurtunities. It is not outside the realm of possibility to capture it and other ships and then run for our lives with Imperial Navy cover. Just highly unlikely. More practically we can probably at least sink it if we can board it(trust me our 3-5 inch artillery would not be enough to sink it even if we had armor piercing shells)or beach it and use it to bombard anything that tries to dig us out of the city if we can take it.

[X] Commit to attacking Sinope now before it gets more fortified.

I don't see a chance for escape other than capturing Sinope. If we choose not to attack and withdraw, we may be able to inflict damage, but I doubt Emdeman meant another escape opportunity when he said viable alternatives.
 
Accidentally referred to East as West. Thanks for the corrections.
You need to hit the entire post. I only quoted one part, you did it consistently throughout.
Your forces join Vorbeck's and attacks the Federal defence line from the north.
The counterattack is made possible by the inaction of the Seaguard who make no move to interdict or otherwise pin down the forward defences in the south.
Baumann points out it wasn't in the plans to move north to assist.
They could easily have fled south and abandoned the field entirely.
 
I don't see a chance for escape other than capturing Sinope. If we choose not to attack and withdraw, we may be able to inflict damage, but I doubt Emdeman meant another escape opportunity when he said viable alternatives.
That would be because the voters and you are missing a few important details that would come to light if an extended planning session occurred.

The damage you can do to the Federation rear areas can range from moderate to enormous depending on the plan chosen. The sea option here would result in the least amount of disruption.
 
trust me our 3-5 inch artillery would not be enough to sink it even if we had armor piercing shells
"Sink"

I was more hoping that we could light it on fire or hit a magazine due to the high angles of fire our arty would be shooting at. Deck armor is always thinner than the belt. If we're lucky it has AoN armor and no secondary interior armor like Armored cruisers had.

If nothing else, it's a pretty obvious high value target that both won't provide the enemy with more cover/slow our forces by firing upon and has the slight possibility of provoking a counter attack from them to save the mighty vessel.

As such:
[X] Take time to gather all the commanders together and review your options.
 
Last edited:
You need to hit the entire post. I only quoted one part, you did it consistently throughout.
I was using another frame of reference, taking the general directions of each position. Sinope is in the north part of the map. I don't think I ever referred to Sinope being in the south. The strategic map I just posted wouldn't make it feasible.
Your forces join Vorbeck's and attacks the Federal defence line from the north.
Here your forces rounded the forest and attack the defence line in the rear, ie. from the north. Map for reference.
The counterattack is made possible by the inaction of the Seaguard who make no move to interdict or otherwise pin down the forward defences in the south.
The Seaguard didn't attack the front of the defence line, which was south of where Rudolf was at the time.
Baumann points out it wasn't in the plans to move north to assist.
They could easily have fled south and abandoned the field entirely.
Baumann was in the southeast corner of the map, I was using that as the frame of reference.

Sorry for spaghetti post, I think there is some miscommunication happening.
 
That would be because the voters and you are missing a few important details that would come to light if an extended planning session occurred.

The damage you can do to the Federation rear areas can range from moderate to enormous depending on the plan chosen. The sea option here would result in the least amount of disruption.
I feel like you're trying to get us to pick the mystery box...fine, I'll bite. i assume they didn't have us go into this operation blind considering that map, are we aware of any particularly significant roads or railways in the region? Also, how much artillery have we already managed to steal from the Feds when we struck the back line? Can we still contact Hall for updates on the front with our Radio?

BTW for the curious, including the more dispersed units in Aland, the Imperials have about 400k troops at the front, and the Federation has about 420k. Almost an even match. Dragging off that corps from the front may have a greater effect than we realize, and since they're so closely stalemated in numbers, if we can actually take out their supplies, even for just a week or maybe two... Breakthrough.

"Sink"

I was more hoping that we could light it on fire or hit a magazine due to the high angles of fire our arty would be shooting at. Deck armor is always thinner than the belt. If we're lucky it has AoN armor and no secondary interior armor like Armored cruisers had.

If nothing else, it's a pretty obvious high value target that both won't provide the enemy with more cover/slow our forces by firing upon and has the slight possibility of provoking a counter attack from them to save the mighty vessel.

As such:
[X] Take time to gather all the commanders together and review your options.
If the Feds aren't stupid and the naval war of the First Europan War in the VC universe played out vaguely similar to our WW1, then the Feds know that having more than 2 inches of deck armor is a great idea, and all ammo should be in the citadel, except for AA and maybe smaller secondary ones. The fire might make it a write off if there is literally no one there to fight fires, but I doubt it.
 
I was using another frame of reference, taking the general directions of each position. Sinope is in the north part of the map. I don't think I ever referred to Sinope being in the south. The strategic map I just posted wouldn't make it feasible.
I have no idea how the previous votes made any sense, then.
[] Move west to block the Federation attack from breaking through to Nicopol.
[] Move east to encircle the Federation defensive line.
[] Write-in
Further, from briefing in the post prior to that:
Estimated enemy numbers:
The force at the defence lines around Herea
1500 approx. (reliable)

The force at the Federation base to the west
1000-3000

The force in Sinope city
2000-4000
Federation base to the west, block Federation attack to the west at Nicopol, going east to do the encirclement were all consistent with Sinope being South.
 
I have no idea how the previous votes made any sense, then.

Further, from briefing in the post prior to that:

Federation base to the west, block Federation attack to the west at Nicopol, going east to do the encirclement were all consistent with Sinope being South.
Welp, thats my stuff up. I meant it to be the other way. Thats what happens when you write updates between 1-3am. Time to go fixing some lines.
 
The artillery is mostly useful for suppressive fire against naval targets. Field artillery is a credible threat to sink destroyers and lighter ships. We couldn't sink the battleship, mind, but landing HE shells around could start fires and disable less protected secondary batteries, range finders, and directors. Given that the battleship is already heavily damaged crew losses would mean damage control is compromised, and compromised further by offloading the marines to fight in the city. Degrading the effectiveness of its support of the city garrison would definitely be helpful, especially since it seems unlikely to me they'd use their heavy primary guns to support the city- and those are probably limited in ammunition from the great naval battle, as I doubt artillery resupply would be a priority compared to repairs. The best case scenario might be starting a fire that forces the crew to abandon ship if they can't get it under control.

That said, artillery in urban combat may also be necessary as direct fire weapons to smash up enemy strongpoints and provide direct cover fire to assaults. It's just the blanket bombardments which are mostly counterproductive. The Empire has tanks as well to serve that role, but from what I recall they don't seem to have the assault guns or heavier caliber guns with effective HE shells except maybe for heavy tanks.
 
are we aware of any particularly significant roads or railways in the region?
Yes you are, I will show them if some of the other options are taken.
Also, how much artillery have we already managed to steal from the Feds when we struck the back line? Can we still contact Hall for updates on the front with our Radio?
You have quite bit, more than restored the guns that got knocked out while Pydan used them (I need to check if I mentioned that) and yes you can use the radio.
BTW for the curious, including the more dispersed units in Aland, the Imperials have about 400k troops at the front, and the Federation has about 420k. Almost an even match. Dragging off that corps from the front may have a greater effect than we realize, and since they're so closely stalemated in numbers, if we can actually take out their supplies, even for just a week or maybe two... Breakthrough.
Just note, each block represents a minimum of 10k, some have more. The Feds are on the defensive here, but they keep a sizeable numbers of troops resting in the rear as shown in the map.

Funny story about the forces in Aland...
Adhoc vote count started by Emdeman on Dec 2, 2017 at 1:04 PM, finished with 30 posts and 12 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Emdeman on Dec 3, 2017 at 7:23 AM, finished with 40 posts and 19 votes.
 
We could just review and see what our options are if we're comfortable bottling them in Sinope for a bit and leaving a blocking force at our rear ('cause we probably can't outrun them to any significant degree) and pushing either further up the coast or east inland.

What's our objective here? To preserve our force and try and get out? To do the most damage for the sake of the war? To cover ourselves in glory? That will inform what we should do.

Mind, ignoring Sinope isn't necessarily a bad move even from the sake of trying to find an exit, as it does mean keeping our forces mostly intact and refusing combat while they're going to take a couple days probably to rearm and fortify before realizing we don't want to have anything to do with them.

Trying to make for the contested territory far to the east would be hilarious. A hilarious pipe dream, but hilarious nonetheless.
 
Last edited:
If the Feds aren't stupid and the naval war of the First Europan War in the VC universe played out vaguely similar to our WW1, then the Feds know that having more than 2 inches of deck armor is a great idea, and all ammo should be in the citadel, except for AA and maybe smaller secondary ones. The fire might make it a write off if there is literally no one there to fight fires, but I doubt it.
I don't know, if the feds have had naval dominance essentially permanently, and with a lack if any sort of aerial threat to navies, I somewhat doubt they've developed along the same lines as OTL interwar navies. Maybe we could ask the naval infantry as to plausible specifications?

And fires are a way bigger threat on any naval vessel than you are giving credit to.

All that still aside, it'd be better to bombard the ship than the city proper anyway, at least until we have accurate positioning of enemy forces.
Adhoc vote count started by Claytonimor on Dec 2, 2017 at 4:22 PM, finished with 34 posts and 15 votes.
 
Honestly I don't see why we should attack Sinope, the only way I can really see of us getting out of this is if we can break through the front lines somewhere and get back to our own people, luckily we have a radio so we can coordinate with our army and if we can find a sufficiently lightly defended section of the front line (somewhere to the east it seems like) we can ask for our troops to attack from their side just as we attempt to break through and pincer the federation troops. This does however depend on us getting far enough east, therefore:
[X] Take time to gather all the commanders together and review your options.
 
Well we're at a decisive moment.

Are we only thinking about escape, or are we considering our original objectives?

Going for the city gives us a chance of escape, but it has negligible disruption to the front. Good chance we'll be assigned straight to the meat grinder if we get out too.

Waiting and considering our options reduces our ability to take the city and the chance of escape it offers, but it allows us to pursue disruption actions and other methods of escape. Most likely we would be trying to be a big enough pest in their rearlines that the front is effected before they finally defeat us.

[X] Take time to gather all the commanders together and review your options.

Our GM is hinting that we've got a lot of options if we wait, so unless you're set on a grueling city fight for the ships and taking them back to friendly territory we should wait.
 
Gave it some more thought and looked on the map more. I think there's still some more opportunities in play here after contemplation and we don't -need- to pile into the desperate urban fight. I'm comfortable playing for time and I think it's possible to bottle these guys up here for awhile with a token rear guard while we advance in another direction.

More importantly, we need time to reform the Seaguard (either get a better commander in charge or probably more realistically split them off at the Battalion level as Brigade support for the other forces). We also probably should rest our own men as well as make sure the other commanders aren't being stupid with each other.

So, changing vote:
[X] Take time to gather all the commanders together and review your options.
 
[X] Take time to gather all the commanders together and review your options.

im taking the red pill morpheus i want to see the bottom of the rabbit hole.
 
The assault on the city should not happen. At best, enemy forces number 6k, our - 12k. (But may be even 7k vs 10k).
We would be lucky to have a 2:1 numbers advantage, not 3:1 which is the "okay to attack a fortified position" ratio.
Now, the city may not be very well protected from a land assault, but it is still a city => longer fighting time; and their artillery is better. Even if we slog through the Feds (which IS unlikely), by the end we will be battered and have the enemy corps at our back. That is, assuming the Feds don't just sink the transports as soon as they are threatened.

We need to bolt away and start being a nuisance: damaging roads/railways/bridges, looting supply trains and so on. This war will be won or lost on land - the whole Europa is a contigious landmass. Thus, lessening Fed naval advantage is not as important as damaging their land elements' ability to fight.

[X] Take time to gather all the commanders together and review your options.
 
So, Sinope was where that heavy cruiser was headed when we ran into it. Good to know.

Attacking the city just to deny the Federation a battleship and a naval base for a little while is pretty tempting, but I'm still undecided if it's a good idea considering the odds.

[X] Take time to gather all the commanders together and review your options.

We can still attack the city afterwards if we really want to.
 
Back
Top