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Per Aspera (Space Agency Plan Quest)

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Derpmind said:
-[X] Engineering (3 dice, +6 Bonus to All)
--[X] Conduct Design Studies (Platform) (Heavy Sounding Rocket) [AERO] 1 die 5R 0/80 30%
--[X] Engine Cycles (Tech) [MATSCI, CHEM, PROP] 1 die 20R 0/250 (1/3.5 dice median chance)
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I found an error in my Plan. Here, I have Engine Cycles written down as using 1 die, but costing 20R. However, the action only costs 10R per die. I've fixed this back to using 2 dice instead of 1. This doesn't affect the R cost of the Plan, but it does ensure we roll all 3 of our Engineering dice. I'm fairly sure I originally intended this to use 2 dice and instead accidentally only had the R cost correct.
 
pbluekan said:
I disagree with you both. Hydrolox is easier to procure from asteroids, sure, but it certainly isn't easier to use or store by any means. IRL with modern materials science it's extremely difficult to compress and store, which goes double for in the quest. Just look at some of the recent issues with the SLS, which are a direct result of using liquid hydrogen. This makes it extremely difficult and more importantly, dangerous, to use.

Methane is almost as abundant, easy to store, easy to use, and frankly, and easy to make. To add to it, the components to make it are also extremely abundant. Water and dry ices are everywhere in the solar system.

From a reliability perspective, Methalox is the way to go.
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I think you're overstating some of the issues with liquid hydrogen - the deficiencies of SLS for instance probably has more to do with mismanagement from on high. Centaur for instance is one of the best second stages in the industry today and it runs on hydrolox. Falcon-Centaur would has been a killer combo for instance.
Hydrogen is definitely more difficult to handle, but that's ok, we don't have to beeline for it. Kerolox will serve us just fine for now, and as we start getting close and closer to re-usability (through things like engine recovery and then first stage recovery) we can switch to kerosol (kerosene solvent, a highly refined form of kerosene that's used to clean microchips and won't coke and polymerize a rocket engine).

Hydrolox is a medium to long term propellant for us to break into IMO. And if we're already doing depot type missions, then we can figure out long term hydrogen storage in LEO before we deploy it to long term deep space missions.
 
While I get how the discussion turned to it, I would point out that we are around ~6 months away IRL from when we really need to even start thinking of hydrolox as anything other than that thing we use for super high performance upper stages even if we want to push things forwards.

For now, we could probably get away with kerosene-peroxide in steel tanks going into pressure fed, ablatively cooled engines. Successfully getting a two-stage rocket to work is a huge advantage; Sputnik was 1 stage with boosters and Juno's upper stages barely deserve the term.
 
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CyberEnby said:
I think you're overstating some of the issues with liquid hydrogen - the deficiencies of SLS for instance probably has more to do with mismanagement from on high. Centaur for instance is one of the best second stages in the industry today and it runs on hydrolox. Falcon-Centaur would has been a killer combo for instance.
Hydrogen is definitely more difficult to handle, but that's ok, we don't have to beeline for it. Kerolox will serve us just fine for now, and as we start getting close and closer to re-usability (through things like engine recovery and then first stage recovery) we can switch to kerosol (kerosene solvent, a highly refined form of kerosene that's used to clean microchips and won't coke and polymerize a rocket engine).

Hydrolox is a medium to long term propellant for us to break into IMO. And if we're already doing depot type missions, then we can figure out long term hydrogen storage in LEO before we deploy it to long term deep space missions.
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The thing is, I just dont see the advantage of Hydrolox over methalox. Sure, it's dirt easy to get. Just hydrolysis. But it's so much harder to use in every respect. It's not as dense, it's hilariously volatile, it's not a great regenerating agent.

For that matter it's not like methane is that much harder to get.
 
pbluekan said:
The thing is, I just dont see the advantage of Hydrolox over methalox. Sure, it's dirt easy to get. Just hydrolysis. But it's so much harder to use in every respect. It's not as dense, it's hilariously volatile, it's not a great regenerating agent.

For that matter it's not like methane is that much harder to get.
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Hydrolox has a significantly higher ISP than Methalox. This is really important for upper stages on higher energy orbits, like GTO or interplanetary missions. A hydrolox upper stage like the Centaur should absolutely be one of the things to develop in about a decade in this quest.
 
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  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by Shadows on Sep 27, 2022 at 6:28 PM, finished with 27 posts and 16 votes.
    • [X] Plan PS Conscious
      -[X] Operations (1 dice, +3 bonus)
      --[X] Construct a 2-Stage Sounding Rocket 1 die 20R 0/50 54%
      ---[X] And launch it 50%
      -[X] Facilities (1 dice, +0 bonus)
      --[X] Construct a Heavy Sounding Rocket launch site 1 die 15R 0/60 41%
      -[X] Engineering (3 dice, +6 Bonus to All)
      --[X] Conduct Design Studies (Platform) (Heavy Sounding Rocket) [AERO] 1 die 5R 0/80 30%
      --[X] Engine Cycles (Tech) [MATSCI, CHEM, PROP] 2 die 20R 0/250 (2/3.5 dice median chance)
      -[X] Science (3 dice, +6 Bonus to All)
      --[X] Research Program Outreach 1 die 10R 81/120 68%
      --[X] Weather Studies (Phase 1) 2 die 20R 0/80 78%
      -[X] Politics (3 dice, +10 bonus, reroll 1 failure per turn)
      --[X] Council Liaison Office 1 die 5R Auto
      --[X] Bothering Councilors 1 die -10 PS Auto
      --[X] Rocket Boxes (Phase I) 1 die 5R 100/200 11%
      -[X] Total: 100R/160R, -10/55 PS
      [X] Plan: A PS-Conscious, Budget-Conscious Aluminum Rocket
      [X] Plan: A PS-Conscious Aluminum Rocket
      -[X] Construct a 2-Stage Sounding Rocket - The IEC's engineers and scientists have come up with a moderately reliable stage separation system for multi-stage rockets. Moderately as in "It worked the first time", anyway. It could use more development. But it does go higher and further, staying in space longer... so it is worth it. (20R per dice, 0/50, costs 1 Build Capacity until complete)
      -[X] Launch it only as part of Weather Studies, don't launch it if that action isn't ready
      -[X] Construct a Heavy Sounding Rocket launch site (15R per die, 0/60, allows launch of the Heavy Sounding Rocket and theoretical derivatives up to 30 tons)
      -[X] Conduct Design Studies (Platform) (Heavy Sounding Rocket) (5R per die, 0/80, unlocks Heavy Sounding Rocket (and a naming vote because that's unwieldy))
      -[X] (2 Dice) Advanced Concepts Office (5R and -5 PS per die, 51/150, will occasionally provide a new Program to pursue based on brainstorming and priorities)
      -[X] Research Program Outreach (10R per dice, 81/120, gives +2 bonus to 1d4 research areas (including engineering))
      -[X] Conduct Materials Research (Phase 1) (15R per die, 0/150, provides access to aluminum structures)
      -[X] Weather Studies (Phase 1) (10R per die, requires a Sounding Rocket, 0/80, unlocks weather science) (+5 PS on complete)
      -[X] Council Liaison Office (5R, establishes a Council Liaison Office, provides details on the state of Council funding priorities, budget, infrastructure status, etc.)
      -[X] Rocket Boxes (Phase I) (5R per die, 102/200. Gives Rocket Boxes to every middle-school, high-school and university or equivalent in Africa. Encourages future African scientists and engineers - some of whom will even come work with the IEC.)
      -[X] Rocket Reels (5R per die, 0/120, gain a coinflip for 1 additional Political Support per quarter; successful rocket launches give you an additional coin flip for each launch.)
      [X] Construct a Sounding Rocket (15R per dice, 0/40, costs 1 Build Capacity until complete)
      -[X] Launch it only as part of Weather Studies, don't launch it if that action isn't ready
      -[X] Construct a Heavy Sounding Rocket launch site (15R per die, 0/60, allows launch of the Heavy Sounding Rocket and theoretical derivatives up to 30 tons)
      -[X] Conduct Design Studies (Platform) (Heavy Sounding Rocket) (5R per die, 0/80, unlocks Heavy Sounding Rocket (and a naming vote because that's unwieldy))
      -[X] Advanced Concepts Office (5R and -5 PS per die, 51/150, will occasionally provide a new Program to pursue based on brainstorming and priorities)
      -[X] Research Program Outreach (10R per dice, 81/120, gives +2 bonus to 1d4 research areas (including engineering))
      -[X] Conduct Materials Research (Phase 1) (15R per die, 0/150, provides access to aluminum structures)
      -[X] Weather Studies (Phase 1) (10R per die, requires a Sounding Rocket, 0/80, unlocks weather science) (+5 PS on complete)
      -[X] Council Liaison Office (5R, establishes a Council Liaison Office, provides details on the state of Council funding priorities, budget, infrastructure status, etc.)
      -[X] Rocket Boxes (Phase I) (5R per die, 102/200. Gives Rocket Boxes to every middle-school, high-school and university or equivalent in Africa. Encourages future African scientists and engineers - some of whom will even come work with the IEC.)
      -[X] Rocket Reels (5R per die, 0/120, gain a coinflip for 1 additional Political Support per quarter; successful rocket launches give you an additional coin flip for each launch.)
      [X] Plan: A Rocket to Surpass the Metal Gear
      [X] Plan: A PS-Conscious, Budget-Conscious Rocket
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    Roll time!
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: 2-Stage Sounding Rocket Build Total: 71
    71 71
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: 2-Stage Sounding Rocket Launch Total: 97
    97 97
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: HSR Launch Pad Total: 8
    8 8
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: HSR Design Studies Total: 31
    31 31
    Shadows threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Engine Cycles Total: 70
    44 44 26 26
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Research Prog Outreach Total: 60
    60 60
    Shadows threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Weather Studies Total: 135
    80 80 55 55
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Rocket Boxes Total: 63
    63 63
    Shadows threw 1 4-faced dice. Reason: Outreach Bonus Gain Total: 4
    4 4
    Shadows threw 5 8-faced dice. Reason: Bonus Areas Total: 15
    6 6 2 2 1 1 5 5 1 1
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Bothering Quality Total: 43
    43 43
     
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  • Voting
    • pbluekan said:
    The thing is, I just dont see the advantage of Hydrolox over methalox. Sure, it's dirt easy to get. Just hydrolysis. But it's so much harder to use in every respect. It's not as dense, it's hilariously volatile, it's not a great regenerating agent.

    For that matter it's not like methane is that much harder to get.
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    Mass.

    Between higher specific impulse and lower mass, hydrogen significantly reduces how much mass you need to put into orbit for interplanetary missions.

    A hydrogen upper stage is just nice.

    A hydrogen third stage meant for earth departure is fantastic.

    The kicker is that to get good performance out of hydrogen, you need to keep your dry mass low (insulated common bulkhead for prop tanks, lithium-magnesium alloys, etc.)
    Mind you that's not necessarily a bad thing because plane companies will be very happy with all the matcsi research you're funding!
     
    CyberEnby said:
    Mass.

    Between higher specific impulse and lower mass, hydrogen significantly reduces how much mass you need to put into orbit for interplanetary missions.

    A hydrogen upper stage is just nice.

    A hydrogen third stage meant for earth departure is fantastic.

    The kicker is that to get good performance out of hydrogen, you need to keep your dry mass low (insulated common bulkhead for prop tanks, lithium-magnesium alloys, etc.)
    Mind you that's not necessarily a bad thing because plane companies will be very happy with all the matcsi research you're funding!
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    I'm not disputing that, but that is entirely offset by the issues of fuel density. You need much more rocket to hold enough hydrogen to make any of that worth it.
     
    pbluekan said:
    I'm not disputing that, but that is entirely offset by the issues of fuel density. You need much more rocket to hold enough hydrogen to make any of that worth it.
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    Compared to kerosene anyway, hydrogen-based upper stages easily double the throw weight of an equal-sized rocket to the moon or escape velocity. With methane the difference is presumably smaller and might be more case-by-case. But until you drive flight rates really high, and probably even then, hydrogen definitely has big advantages for launch vehicles.

    For the more forgiving math of missions where you start with space-sourced resources, it seems very likely that viability of each fuel is driven more by availability than its physical properties.
     
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    pbluekan said:
    I'm not disputing that, but that is entirely offset by the issues of fuel density. You need much more rocket to hold enough hydrogen to make any of that worth it.
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    That's why I talked about the importance of reducing dry mass. Larger tanks are a downside, but it's a downside that can be worked around - stainless steel balloon tanks for instance are a good way to go about it because they have relatively low heat conduction, and low mass. Centaur does it that way. Indeed, they're a good option for expendable upper stages in general, being cheap to manufacture (through there's a bit of a learning curve in how to store and handle balloon tanks, but it's not onerous - see Atlas).

    We're probably going to make at least one buckle on the launch pad, but that's what test launches are for! :D
     
    2-Stage Sounding Rocket 71+3+1 = 75/50 Launch 97
    HSR Launch Site 8/60
    HSR Design 31+12+6 = 49/80
    Engine Cycles 44+26+12+10+14+8 = 114/250
    Research Program Outreach 81+60+6 = 147/120
    Weather Studies 80+55+12 = 147/80
    Council Liaison Office AUTO
    Bothering Councilors AUTO
    Rocket Boxes 102+63+10 = 175/200

    Another rocket launched without an explosion. Giving us two successful launches with the new avionics which gives us a bonus of 1d2 to a random field of research.

    With the research program outreach completed, I guess it's time to roll the bonus gacha.
     
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    You got 4 bonuses from the gacha + 1 from the coinflip - +4 to AERO, +2 to AVIONICS, +2 to COMP and +2 to MATSCI.
     
    Maximum possible bonuses. Neat.
    Poor PHYS tag, still all alone with no bonuses.

    CREW gets a pass on account of we can't even get a rocket out of the atmosphere, much less put a person in one.
     
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