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Per Aspera (Space Agency Plan Quest)

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[X] Plan Punch The Moon

Imo, irl the failures, and perhaps the very attempts at sending animals in space themselves, cemented space exploration as a sacrificial science, where loses are expected and embraced.

If we really want to test that, why not send some insects? Or hell, plants. Those are living organisms that we could learn lots from if they die, and even if they live.

A spider or tomato plant dying is much less important to the public than a pet or Caesar.
 
[X] Plan Punch The Moon

Fly me to the Moon, and let me punch it in the face, let me show it what I learned in Moon jujitsu class
 
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VoidSpace0 said:
[X] Plan Punch The Moon

Imo, irl the failures, and perhaps the very attempts at sending animals in space themselves, cemented space exploration as a sacrificial science, where loses are expected and embraced.

If we really want to test that, why not send some insects? Or hell, plants. Those are living organisms that we could learn lots from if they die, and even if they live.

A spider or tomato plant dying is much less important to the public than a pet or Caesar.
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The importance of animal testing after we're confident in our spacecraft is in making sure that complex life with human-ish physiology can handle sustained periods of zero-G. For all we know at this point, after a few minutes of zero-G, the heart stops working or something, and it's better if we find that out by a dog dying than a human. Insects or plants don't help with that. That said, we should only launch animals once we are reasonably confident in it; we shouldn't pull a Laika.
 
Redhead222 said:
so got too ask. is there a reason we are putting a focus on the solar sail thing??
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You really should read the thread, but I'll bite: It's not a solar sail. It's a solar thermal, like using a magnifying glass to burn paper except instead of paper it powers a rocket. It's a poor man's ion engine, and the peeps here think actual practical ion engines are far enough away for it to be a worthwhile stopgap.

VoidSpace0 said:
[X] Plan Punch The Moon

Imo, irl the failures, and perhaps the very attempts at sending animals in space themselves, cemented space exploration as a sacrificial science, where loses are expected and embraced.

If we really want to test that, why not send some insects? Or hell, plants. Those are living organisms that we could learn lots from if they die, and even if they live.

A spider or tomato plant dying is much less important to the public than a pet or Caesar.
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A plant would be no use to use, totally different respiration mechanism. But the spider? That'll work for life support testing if we can't monitor gas concentrations remotely (but if not that is VERY DAMN IMPORTANT to become capable of doing!). Maybe frogs, if we really need something large enough to disect.

But yeah your post has convinced me the awesome name plan is the best plan.
[X] Plan Punch The Moon
C_Z said:
The importance of animal testing after we're confident in our spacecraft is in making sure that complex life with human-ish physiology can handle sustained periods of zero-G. For all we know at this point, after a few minutes of zero-G, the heart stops working or something, and it's better if we find that out by a dog dying than a human. Insects or plants don't help with that. That said, we should only launch animals once we are reasonably confident in it; we shouldn't pull a Laika.
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But by metaknowledge we do know what zero-G does to people, and it's not directly lethal. We aren't at risk of political capital loss for not investigating.

OK there's one possible issue. I recall an excerpt from ProjectRho of a sci-fi story where the issue was that if you fall asleep motionless in zero g and the air circulation fans stop, the lack of convection means you suffocate in a cloud of your own CO2. Google search results are polluted with some stupid "zero g posture" beds and chairs, so I can't quickly verify. Given how unlikely it is for the capsule's fans specifically to break down just as laika is sleeping though, I am not sure we'd reliably catch that with animal testing.
 
General_Urist said:
OK there's one possible issue. I recall an excerpt from ProjectRho of a sci-fi story where the issue was that if you fall asleep motionless in zero g and the air circulation fans stop, the lack of convection means you suffocate in a cloud of your own CO2. Google search results are polluted with some stupid "zero g posture" beds and chairs, so I can't quickly verify. Given how unlikely it is for the capsule's fans specifically to break down just as laika is sleeping though, I am not sure we'd reliably catch that with animal testing.
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That's the problem with liquids, due to the surface tension. This, and 0 gravity, means that if you were to put air inside a water bubble it would stay there, and that would lead to no gas circulation.
But outside of that, gases have little cohesion between molecules, so the question would be: is the thermal energy of the molecules enough to break that extremely small cohesion between them? I'd think so, except for extremely heavy gases. And even then this is assuming the force an astronaut breathes them out is negligible, but even when I breathe normally on Earth the force is strong enough that I feel a gust a good dozen cm away from my nose, more than enough to break a bubble that weak, if it can even exist..
 
General_Urist said:
You really should read the thread, but I'll bite: It's not a solar sail. It's a solar thermal, like using a magnifying glass to burn paper except instead of paper it powers a rocket. It's a poor man's ion engine, and the peeps here think actual practical ion engines are far enough away for it to be a worthwhile stopgap.
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I object to "poor man's ion engine" when it has orders of magnitude higher thrust and could reasonably keep doing good service with today's technology :D.
General_Urist said:
But by metaknowledge we do know what zero-G does to people, and it's not directly lethal. We aren't at risk of political capital loss for not investigating.
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Should we be operating on metaknowledge though?
 
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Vote closed
  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by Shadows on Jul 23, 2024 at 1:47 PM, finished with 24 posts and 19 votes.
    • [X] Plan Punch The Moon
      -[X] Construct an R-4a Dawn 34/100 (4 dice, 120R)
      --[X] And launch it (2 dice)
      ---[X] Mark 1 Single Crew Capsule, (Max Q Abort, integration and recovery procedures test, unmanned.)
      ---[X] Curiosity B High Earth Orbit and color photo return.
      -[X]Build a Payload
      --[X] Lodestone-class impactor (40R, 1 turn)
      --[X] Mark 1 Single Crew Capsule (45R, 1 turn)
      -[X] Build a new Space Center (Singapore) (Phase 2 (436/600) (3 dice 105R)
      -[X] Build a Scientific Complex
      --[X] Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (290/450) (3 dice, 75R)
      -[X] Tracking and Communication Station Construction (Phase 3) - (474/550) (2 dice, 60R)
      -[X] Design/Redesign an Orbital Rocket [R-3, 1/2 turns] (1 die, 15R)
      -[X] Lander Design Studies - (1/4 turns, 15R per turn, 1 dice locked)
      -[X] Solar Thermal Rocketry [PHYS] - (100/450) (2 dice, 30R)
      -[X] Expandable Nozzles (PROP) (0/400) (1 die, 15R)
      -[X] Nuclear Power Plant Design Studies - (7/8 turns, 1 locked dice, 25R per turn)
      -[X] All-Sky Survey (Phase 1) (124/300) (2 dice, 20R)
      -[X] Very Long Range Communications (2/3 turns, 1 die, 5R)
      -[X] Synthetic Aperture Radar ( 1/4 turns, 1 die, 20R)
      -[X] Transistor Computing Investigations (3/6 turns, 1 die, 20R)
      -[X] Coordinate with the AEC (-5R/turn permanently or until coordination ends)
      -[X] Propagandize for Nuclear Power (-4 PS, 2 dice)
      -[X] Laboratory Talent Scouting - (0/150) (2 dice, 10R)
      [X] Plan: We'll Always Have Oak Ridge
      -[X] Construct an R-3 Snow (7/80) (2 dice, 1 capacity, 50R)
      --[X] And donate it to the Visitor Center
      -[X] Construct an R-4a Dawn (0/100) (2 dice, 1 capacity, 60R)
      -[X] Construct a Payload
      --[X] Lodestone-class impactor (2 mass) (0/1 turn) (1 die, 40R)
      --[X] Mark 1 Single Crew Capsule (0/1 turn) (1 die, 45R)
      -[X] Weather Observation Satellites (1 slot, 40R)
      -[X] Build a new Space Center (Singapore) (436/600) (3 dice, 105R)
      -[X] Build a Scientific Complex
      --[X] Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (290/450) (3 dice, 75R)
      -[X] Tracking and Communication Station Construction (Phase 3) - (474/550) (2 dice, 60R)
      -[X] Lander Design Studies (1/4 turns) (1 die, 15R)
      -[X] Nuclear Power Plant Design Studies (7/8 turns) (1 die, 25R)
      -[X] Redesign an Orbital Rocket (R-3) (1/2 turns) (1 die, 15R)
      -[X] Spacesuit Design Studies (0/2 turns) (1 die, 15R)
      -[X] Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (0/2 turns) (1 die, 25R)
      -[X] Solar Thermal Rocketry [PHYS] (100/450) (1 die, 15R)
      -[X] Animal Cosmonauts (0/1 turn) (1 die, 75R)
      -[X] All-Sky Survey (Phase 1) [PHYS] (124/300) (1 die, 10R)
      -[X] Very Long Range Communications (2/3 turns, 1 die, 5R)
      -[X] Transistor Computing Investigations (3/6 turns, 1 die, 20R)
      -[X] Synthetic Aperture Radar ( 1/4 turns, 1 die, 20R)
      -[X] Coordinate with the AEC (1 die, 5R/turn)
      -[X] Propagandize for Nuclear Power (788/???) (4 dice, 8PS)
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    Shadows threw 4 100-faced dice. Reason: R-4a Dawn Construction Total: 152
    83 83 14 14 47 47 8 8
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Capsule Launch Total: 64
    64 64
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Curiosity B Launch Total: 46
    46 46
    Shadows threw 1 3-faced dice. Reason: Weather Sats Total: 2
    2 2
    Shadows threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Singapore Space Center Total: 77
    8 8 55 55 14 14
    Shadows threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Sydney Microelectronics Centre Total: 223
    49 49 85 85 89 89
    Shadows threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Tracking Station Construction Total: 205
    81 81 62 62 62 62
    Shadows threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Solar Thermal Rocketry Total: 138
    63 63 75 75
    Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Expandable Nozzles Total: 9
    9 9
    Shadows threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: All-Sky Survey Total: 167
    72 72 95 95
    Shadows threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Lab Scouting Total: 180
    68 68 12 12 100 100
    Shadows threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Propagandize for Nuclear Total: 85
    68 68 17 17
    Shadows threw 2 5-faced dice. Reason: Sydney Bonus Total: 8
    3 3 5 5
     
  • Voting
    • I think it'd be narratively interesting if we failed all three, and I'd be willing to take that L (as one of the people who pushed heavily for it).
     
    R-4a 34+164 = 100/100, 98/100 +1 R-4a
    Crew Capsule 67
    Curiosity-B 49
    Singapore 436+77+30 = 543/600
    Sydney 290+223+30 = 543/450
    Tracking and Communication Stations 474+143+20 = 637/550
    R-3 Redesign 2/2 turns
    Lander Design Studies 2/4 turns
    Solar Thermal Rocketry 100+138+18+44 = 300/450
    Expandable Nozzles 9+9+18 = 36/400
    Nuclear Power Plant Design Studies 8/8 turns
    All-Sky Survey 124+167+18+44 = 353/300
    Very Long Range Communications 3/3 turns
    Synthetic Aperture Radar 2/4 turns
    Transistor Computing Investigations 4/6 turns
    Coordinate with the AEC
    Propagandize for Nuclear Power 788+85+22 = 895/1000
    Laboratory Talent Scouting 168+22 = 190/150 Nat 100
     
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    Ops
    Construct an R-4a (34/100) - (34+152+12) = 100/100 + 98/100
    Capsule Launch (66)
    Curiosity B Launch (46)
    Weather Satellites (2)

    Facilities
    Singapore Phase 2 (436/600) - (436+77+30) = 543/600
    Sydney Scientific Complex (290/450) - (290+223+30) = 543/450
    Tracking Stations 3 (474/550) - (474+143+20) = 637/550

    Engineering
    R-3 Redesign ☑☑
    Lander Design Studies ☑☑◻◻
    Solar Thermal Rocketry (100/450) - (100+138+62) = 300/450
    Expandable Nozzles (0/400) - (0+9+20) = 29/400
    NPP Design Studies ☑☑☑☑☑☑☑☑

    Science
    All-Sky Survey 1 (124/300) - (124+167+62) = 300/300 + 53/???
    VLR Communications ☑☑☑
    Synthetic Aperture Radar ☑☑◻◻
    Transistor Computing Investigations ☑☑☑☑◻◻

    Politics
    Coordinate with the AEC
    Propagandize for Nuclear Power (788/1000) - (788+85+22) = 895/1000
    Lab Talent Scouting (0/150) - (0+168+22) = 190/150
     
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    Figures we fail the big promise. Not for lack of trying though. We put the maximum dice possible on that project every turn. So hopefully the Councilists and the M-Ls will understand.

    Now we need the politics reroll.
    Also building the visitor center gave us a +1 to politics last turn, so the overall bonus should be +11.
     
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    What we might do, if the GM is very generous, is auto-complete Singapore this turn or next with rollover from Sydney and the relay stations.
     
    Possible results of this:
    - A young Carl Sagan, working on his doctorate comes to us to do A Physical Study of the Planets, his thesis.
    - Richard Feynman, secured a work-release from his war-criminal past, has been allowed to teach physics again (+1 EDU in North America)
    - Lacking a suitable computer for interplanetary orbital calculations, we get Katherine Johnson instead :p
     
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