Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
Scion replies by hitting back, the continent promptly implode.
Path of the Immeasurable Swarm [Worm/Cradle]
- Thread starter derivativeoflife
- Start date
- Crossover
There's also one strategic advantage: If Hera is a separate individual, then she's not bound by Taylor's soul oaths.
Admittedly, that kind of thinking rather undercuts the main thrust of Taylor's argument
The problem is that the only reason Scion didn't kill Taylor out of the gates was because he considered Hosts to be more or less extensions of the Shards. It was basically a very drunk and depressed dad having a "beat your kids" episode. And even while he was being depressed and ripping wings off the flies the only reason the whole thing gone through was literal luck. There was at least two or three moments where it all came down to a binary choice where Taylor had no idea which of them was right, and even Simurgh and PTV couldn't say because Scion was blocking their info gathering from the beginning.
Any external threat that is not a Host would have been deleted the moment it became even a blip on his radar.
Honestly I've seem those kind of numbers thrown about and honestly I call bs because especially at the end wild bow kinda starts escalating the sheer scale of stuff far beyond reason like the end bringers having the mass of a galaxy
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
That calculations from information Lisa gathered at the leviathan fight, someone did the math and wildbow said it was right.
If it was the case then the debate above is probably settled in favour of worm
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
Not necessarily, the entities obviously got absurd amount of power, but the endbringers having a lot of matter invested in them doesn't necessarily make them stronger than they shown, it could be there for many reasons, like the entities keeping it there because they need to keep it somewhere.
Functionally speaking, throw a planet wiping attack at them and they will die (assuming no power interference), their durability is capped, and the galaxy matter is mostly useful for giving them a lot of matter to regenerate their bodies or stop anything that isn't planet busting from doing any damage (ignoring exotic stuff).
- Location
- washington
the entities have been shown to be able to destroy approximately one universe worth of earths. Abidan can arguably do the same also you know have conceptual stuff. Mind you the entities clearly have a whole bunch more individual abilities than even all the abidan combined but that doesn't mean much when a few powers can end a universe just as well as the entities can. Also I don't really like the argument I don't like wildbows bs statements so I'm gonna ignore anything I don't like as a statement of fact. The entities can deal with fuck off numbers of realities with their power and people just need to accept that. No one dealt with an entity in series they dealt with sock puppets with a trillionth of their power and vital functions that can fuck the entities up because their idiots.
- Location
- Texas
The Multiverse, as it is interpreted in Worm, does not really fit into the cosmology of Cradle, so it's likely that she perceived the "Earth" Iteration as a whole, while connected to the Clairvoyant. Which would count as a single world, as far as the Abidan are concerned, while having many variants of that planet which aren't the core world of the Iteration (Aleph, most likely, though it might also be Cheit due to pure human population.)
- Location
- washington
Technically this doesn't work with abidan at all and its fine if you believe this but there are plenty of empty earths connected to earth bet. Sure taylor probably saved countless billion populated earths but who knows how many were also empty. In fairness though the abidan archives can easily fit that cosmology in their own by the fact even the abidan surmize other cosmologies exist out there with their own ways and such.
As I said previously a good way for crossover to treat it is if Entities and Abidan move on perpendicular axes intersecting only around Earth Bet.
Their approach is so radically different their sight doesn't extend beyond the boundaries they basically set for themselves.
Similarly where Abidan sees the range between worlds in the multiverse as infinite Entities see it as zero.
And both sides need a big shock to their worldview to be able to get over their current limitations.
Shards are currently a little ahead since they have QA connected to Taylor and The Eye and Keeper of the Dead are aware of Cradle and probably also gather information non-stop.
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Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
There are more universes than particles in one, they destroy much much more than one universe worth of earths.
To make this debate even more annoying, because why not, I'll just say that no one in Worm has spiritual defenses or protections of any kind. One could argue that a Monarch is capable of killing any being, even Scion depending on how you interpret the human avatar thing, by just attacking their soul. Well the Monarch could do the soul crush thing via simply cycling their Madra which is what happen with the Titan.
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
The soul is the remnant if I remember correctly, this is what Eithan targets.
People outside of cradle don't have what cradle people call souls.
There are other stuff, like origin and such brought up by abidan though.
A fair point but given Monarchs can stack conceptual authority that is multi-versal in compatibility on top of their soul attacking Madra, I don't think the distinction would matter. I also think that simply putting will behind the attack would be enough as willpower can be used to contend against any being in the Willverse, even conceptual ones like the Great Elders.
"They could be broken apart, but they would only re-form. Any attack capable of removing them conceptually would prompt the Dreadgod to reintegrate."
As a counter I will say that the people who died from the Titan's spiritual pressure didn't die from their remnants being destroyed. Something about the spiritual pressure of the titan killed them, then their remnants rose and then they were reduced to nothing. So its possible that spirtual pressure attacks both what the Abidan consider the soul and what Cradle views it as.
"Hundreds of people, closer and weaker than she was, fell like grass before a scythe. Their Remnants rose and were reduced to shining dust in the same instant."
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Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
Extremely unlikely, origin seems significantly more advanced than anything people in cradle can touch.
I don't think the origin was mentioned once in a cradle narrative, maybe with the penance?
Pure madra when backed by authority might be able to do more outside, Lindon could turn off machines with it for example, but I seriously doubt anything monrachs or dreadgods have can touch the origin.
It's worth noting that according to Will, Abidan and Cradle natives define the soul differently. With the Abidan, it's the part of a being which connects them to the way, and is used interchangeably with the term 'origin of existence'. Meanwhile for Cradle natives, soul is used interchangeably with spirit and refers to a person's madra network.
The takeaway being that I'd expect Cradle spiritual attacks, unless backed by authority, to do nothing to someone without a spirit to damage.
The takeaway being that I'd expect Cradle spiritual attacks, unless backed by authority, to do nothing to someone without a spirit to damage.
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I'm torn because it makes sense for the Origin to be what the Abidan consider souls but I'm not sure it is. Will describes a Soul as the force that connects human will to the Way while the Origin is something stored in a, "the metaphysical record storage system." Whatever the fuck that means. However, the Soul stuff comes from a 2017 WoW while the Origin stuff is much newer, 2021. It's possible he changed his mind and created the Origin for that purpose. Though I'm not sure.
Honestly, I'm going to try to get Will to answers how spiritual pressure works outside of Cradle on those without a Madra system. The idea that any one of his other characters could stand next to a Dreadgod and not die because they don't have a spirit/madra system is kind of hilarious.
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
I don't think that related, the people who died created remnants who also died, so the damage isn't spiritual, otherwise remnants wouldn't form.
Damn, yeah nvm. This just brings up so many questions, because what killed them? There's no mention of them being slammed into the ground by gravity from the earth aura. Nor was it a consume technique as their remnants just get obliterated. Wtf did the Titan do???
Roth963
If I become inactive with this massage, I died
It was the smell?
You could probably treat Origin as the True Name. Not like in Dresden Files but closer to D&D or Warhammer and some other works as in not just a designation but a word that encompasses the whole of the being. If you destroy it you destroy the idea of the person it describes.
Well, Dreadgods attacks are backed by a level of authority, so it would matter in either case. But something like, say, Lindon's empty palm, wouldn't do anything to someone who doesn't rely on Madra pre-lord tier. Post lord tier, the empty palm might carry either soulfire+willpower, or be backed by the void icon, in which case it carries the effect 'disrupts foes powers' on the conceptual backend as well and could plausibly effect anything.
NemiTheNen
Perpetual Phone Poster
No, Willverse only has human intelligence. Either by becoming human, or copying human, or preying on human. Because if other intelligences were possible then why bother with humans? (IE The Culture. Why do the great AIs of the setting bother with humans ot let them.make decisions?)
Furthermore, how 'earth' is the center of the itteration
This, i thunk rather the entities are swiming through itteration trees.
Dragons Exist.
The only reason that dragons look human-ish is because they are trying to mimic their current leader, who himself only looks human due to a complex involving his late adoptive sibling.
Nothing forces them to be like humans in any way, shape, or form beyond politics.
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