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Path of the Immeasurable Swarm [Worm/Cradle]

Reader mode
Within Cradle the top position is Monarch. Right now the only Monarchs are Akura Malice, Reigan Shen, the Dragon King, Northstrider, Shia Miara, Emris Silentborn. So only 6. After that Sages and Herals are kind of equal but different in power. The 8 man empire is a speical group of 4 heralds and 4 sages with armour that allows them to share power and are considered the equal of a Monarch.

There are quite a few Sages and Heralds around though. Within the Akura Clan there was Charity and Fury and they have the Winter Sage as a Vassal. So only 3 really. But I think the total worldwide number is roughly about a 100. The Aurelius Clan which was very big 15 years ago is reduced to just a single Sage right now. The Dreadgod Cults I think have roughly one Sage and one Herald each so about 8 in total and they are currently working with Reigan Shen who has at least one Sage and one Herald as direct subordinates. It think having 1-4 subordinates for each Monarch is standard. But the 8 man empire, the Cults, and quite a few independents like Yerin's old Master bolster the numbers quite a bit.
 
Stahor said:
As non-Cradle reader, how exceptional sage is?
For example, in Akura clan? I gather there Charity, Fury (was), and Malice herself.
Does this mean that essentially, besides their Monarch, they only have one? And those numbers are representative for other big players?
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Once you reach Archlord, you can then become either a Sage or a Herald. A Sage can then become a Herald or vice versa, and that's how you become a Monarch. Fury was a Herald. (Becoming a Sage as an Underlord or Overlord is known to be possible, but hasn't happened in a long time.)

All of the Monarch factions are allowed two Sages/Heralds -- so the Akura had Fury and Charity. We know the Dragon King has two Heralds -- Xorrus and someone who hasn't been mentioned in the story yet (the Rootfather). With most of the other factions we're only told about one of these. For example, we know Shen has a Herald, the Thunder Fairy. And we know about one of the Nineclouds' Heralds.

It's directly mentioned in the story that the Akura clan is weakened by Fury leaving, so I assume most factions have two, even if they're not named.

In terms of how exceptional they are, the short answer is very. For example, the Akura seem to have only one vassal Sage -- the Winter Sage. The Temple of Rising Earth only had an Archlord, and the Blackflame Empire/Seishan Kingdom only have Overlords.

I believe there's Word of Will there are only about 50 Sages in the entire world, and about double that many Heralds.
 
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Stahor said:
As non-Cradle reader, how exceptional sage is?
For example, in Akura clan? I gather there Charity, Fury (was), and Malice herself.
Does this mean that essentially, besides their Monarch, they only have one? And those numbers are representative for other big players?
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Attaining Sagedom before Archlord is exceptional/unusual. It's theoretically possible to attain it at any lord stage but as far as most of the world knows its not something that can be done without being an archlord.


Lindon did it at underlord in canon.

An Archlord Sage is the rung in power below a Monarch like Akura Malice, with Archlord Heralds like Fury before he became a Monarch being equivalent to Archlord Sages but with a different type of power.
 
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Stahor said:
As non-Cradle reader, how exceptional sage is?
For example, in Akura clan? I gather there Charity, Fury (was), and Malice herself.
Does this mean that essentially, besides their Monarch, they only have one? And those numbers are representative for other big players?
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Let me put it this way. The Akura rule half a continent. (remember cradle is a LOT larger than earth) For who knows how long their main family boasted 1 monarch, 1 sage, and 1 Herald. That's it. One of the most powerful groups on the planet and they had only 2 members a step below monarch. During canon they also had sages who where their vassals… two of them.

1 monarch, 3 sages, and 1 herald and they held half a continent against the rest of the world. One of those power houses just left and Taylor is set to replace him if the clan buys her time, or buries her in resources, to advance to Archlord and become a full powered sage. Taylor is now a nuclear deterrent.
 
She's also a member of the Akura family. By adoption, but given a lot of the Akuras we've seen, that may be more reassuring than being of genuine Akura genestock.

Leapfrogging past Mercy is going to be of some concern, but Mercy is still, IIRC, a teenager, so she's not expected to be the most powerful member of the clan.

It does however mean that she's more likely to be drawn further into the clan ruling structure instead of getting a semi-independent position, like a subordinate sect leader.
 
Jinx999 said:
She's also a member of the Akura family. By adoption, but given a lot of the Akuras we've seen, that may be more reassuring than being of genuine Akura genestock.

Leapfrogging past Mercy is going to be of some concern, but Mercy is still, IIRC, a teenager, so she's not expected to be the most powerful member of the clan.

It does however mean that she's more likely to be drawn further into the clan ruling structure instead of getting a semi-independent position, like a subordinate sect leader.
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I don't think leaprogging Mercy is too much of a concern. It is obvious to everyone that Taylor is very close to Mercy. Especially after her Overlord revelation.

Moreover Mercy is still ahead in some ways. She will very likely reach Archlord first and if it is anything like canon she will make Herald very easily. She is also about 6 years younger than Taylor from what I remember.

It is Lindon and Yerin which may cause more concern as there is decent chance both of them will become Sages as well soon and don't have as much loyalty to the Akura clan. I think several will be worried that Eithan will steal them for the Aurelius clan.
 
Maping said:
In terms of how exceptional they are, the short answer is very. For example, the Akura seem to have only one vassal Sage -- the Winter Sage. The Temple of Rising Earth only had an Archlord, and the Blackflame Empire/Seishan Kingdom only have Overlords.
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Remember that when shit hits the fan in book 11, Malice calls out a bunch of other sages and heralds to help defend Moongrave, somewhere in the realm of 4. Although that is in the circumstances of a second dread war so it's a larger number than she'd be able to recruit for a territorial squabble.

I imagine that a lot of Sages/Heralds don't bother holding territory, and are either wanderers like the sword sage or focusing on their advancement in a cave somewhere or are research hobos like a less powerful/effective Northstrider.
p235711131719 said:
It is Lindon and Yerin which may cause more concern as there is decent chance both of them will become Sages as well soon and don't have as much loyalty to the Akura clan. I think several will be worried that Eithan will steal them for the Aurelius clan.
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Ehh, from Malice's POV they aren't likely to forget the help the Akura have provided them in evacuating Sacred Valley, or giving them advancement resources, or Malice specifically risking territory elsewhere to defend the Blackflame Empire from the Bleeding Pheonix which is a decision she would not have made unless she expected it to pay off.
"My first purpose was to congratulate you both." Purple eyes moved over them warmly. "I see many things in the future, many possibilities, and they very rarely pay off as I wish. But you…I am so glad to have given you my support."

Eithan bowed with a flourish, but Lindon had always wondered one thing.

"Pardon if this is too far, but if you don't mind, would you tell us what exactly you saw?"

She stared into the distance, as though at a fond memory. "I saw a shadow of Eithan Arelius ascending to Monarch. His face was clear, but those of his followers vague. Two Monarchs followed him, or perhaps four. Enough to change the balance of this world, and not in a way that anyone could challenge."

The truth slapped Lindon again, as he realized what it meant that Malice knew. She knew that Monarchs sustained the Dreadgods, and she wanted to raise up more.

Malice must have caught something in his spirit or in a change in his breathing, because her smile grew larger and a touch malicious. "You were down there quite a while. I'm sure you learned much. Yes, the Monarchs in Cradle have reached an equilibrium to avoid letting the Dreadgods grow too strong. We keep each other in check, and the number of Monarchs from becoming too high. If someone reached Monarch independently, then we might allow that. Assuming they cooperated.

"But if one of us managed to raise another Monarch—like my son Fury—the others would turn on them in the name of maintaining the balance. Two cannot face six.

"That was the situation when there were eight Monarchs. If you were to raise four Monarchs at once, all loyal to one another…well, you could accomplish whatever you wished."
Eithan's smile could mean anything, but Lindon's gut twisted.

"The Dreadgods…you knew all along, didn't you, Arelius? Tiberian would have told you."

"I worked it out on my own, actually," Eithan said cheerily. "But he did swear me to silence on…certain issues."

Malice tapped the side of her cheek as she turned to Lindon. "So it is only you who remain informed and unbound. How do you feel, now that you know what price we Monarchs must pay?"

Lindon thought it was brazen of Malice to call it a price she was paying, when she was paying with the lives of thousands of others, but he didn't let that show on his face.

"Overwhelmed," Lindon responded. "I admit, I wondered how the Dreadgods could possibly be such fearsome opponents that the Monarchs couldn't be rid of them."

Malice gave a disgusted expression. "They're fearsome in more than one way. Anyway, this day had to come eventually. Swear not to reveal this to the uninformed, and I won't force you to ascend."

For yet another time that day, Lindon was pushed into swearing an oath. It hung in the air between them, unfulfilled.

He hesitated, but Malice kept speaking. "You're a true Sage now, so it's only appropriate that you take on a measure of responsibility. When any Sage or Herald comes close to the truth, or makes enough progress in their advancement, we make them swear."
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But a potential future sage/monarch is overwhelmingly someone you want to treat with the carrot rather than the stick. Malice would probably be willing to settle for Lindon, Eithan, and co being firm allies ala Northstrider rather than direct underlings. At least, until Eithan is revealed and she learns that her hold over Lindon and co is much more tenuous than it appeared to be.
 
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Lexical said:
Remember that when shit hits the fan in book 11, Malice calls out a bunch of other sages and heralds to help defend Moongrave, somewhere in the realm of 4. Although that is in the circumstances of a second dread war so it's a larger number than she'd be able to recruit for a territorial squabble.

I imagine that a lot of Sages/Heralds don't bother holding territory, and are either wanderers like the sword sage or focusing on their advancement in a cave somewhere or are research hobos like a less powerful/effective Northstrider.
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There seems to be a difference between allies and vassals and it's not always clear which is which. Supposedly Malice only has one Sage vassal, since the three vassal teams (Frozen Blade Sect, Temple of Rising Earth, Blackflame/Seishan) only have one Sage between them. And yet Malice calls on allied sages/heralds in both Reaper (to combat the Eight Man Empire/Shen/Dreadgod cults) and Dreadgod (to protect Moongrave). Some of those are specifically called out as "Wasteland sages and heralds" so I guess they're allies and don't actually live in Malice's territory?

Northstrider is also a bit weird. Supposedly he doesn't hold any territory but the Wasteland sages and heralds sorta cluster under his banner, and compete in his name in the Uncrowned King Tournament.
 
Maping said:
There seems to be a difference between allies and vassals and it's not always clear which is which. Supposedly Malice only has one Sage vassal, since the three vassal teams (Frozen Blade Sect, Temple of Rising Earth, Blackflame/Seishan) only have one Sage between them. And yet Malice calls on allied sages/heralds in both Reaper (to combat the Eight Man Empire/Shen/Dreadgod cults) and Dreadgod (to protect Moongrave). Some of those are specifically called out as "Wasteland sages and heralds" so I guess they're allies and don't actually live in Malice's territory?

Northstrider is also a bit weird. Supposedly he doesn't hold any territory but the Wasteland sages and heralds sorta cluster under his banner, and compete in his name in the Uncrowned King Tournament.
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Northstrider basically works as a favor-trade master at the highest level Cradle has. The Wastelanders don't owe him fealty, but they do seem to exchange various goods and services with each other. That's why they have something (unsaid) that lets them submit one of the four teams "for Northstrider" for the Uncrowned King tournament, even though the Ninecloud Court, the host of the tournament, thought Northstrider was dead. Very likely the Tidewalkers were at the tournament under Northstrider, as well: this one isn't based on anything specific except a process of elimination, mind. But I can't find a more likely candidate, and they were willing to be bribed by the dragons to go against the Akura factions in round 2, which didn't help Northstrider's goals although Penance hadn't been introduced yet. That supports Northstrider basically not having control over these groups. It's just making a deal when there's a good deal to be made.

The Wasteland group is, specifically, "three Heralds and one ancient Sage", though we don't get much detail about them. It's just the Beast King and... "the others". As far as I read them as a 'faction', there's a lot of discarded treasure and powerful aura in the Wasteland, so they like where they are and trade with the Blackflame Empire (probably food for... advancement resources? unclear) as well as Northstrider. The Beast King is a staunch enemy of the dragons, but we don't have a great view of how the others feel and what their internal set-up is like, so maybe also trading with the dragons.

I think that the Monarch factions have a deal that's basically "2-3 direct Heralds/Sages, but looser restrictions about allies". Seshethkunaaz talks about raising Sopharanatoth as his "third Herald". The Akura have (until the events of canon/this fic) one Sage and one Herald directly under Malice, plus the Winter Sage as a vassal. Both the Ninecloud Court and Reigan Shen have mention of more than one Herald (though one only gets named for each), with no explicit mention of Sages. That makes things make pretty good sense. I think that the distinction here is basically how much control you can exert over a vassal as opposed to an ally. If Malice ordered Charity to win a fight or die, Charity could be expected to obey. If Malice wanted the same out of Min Shuei, the Winter Sage would probably comply... but I feel like there would be an expectation that Malice owes Min Shuei's heirs significantly for doing so. The Beast King would be harder yet: we know he has a vendetta against the dragons, so Malice might be able to encourage him to take specific anti-dragon measures she would benefit from, but if she really wanted him to ride or die against the Tidewalker Herald (or another equivalent peer: you can put any name in here), well, she probably is stuck. She can want it all she wants, but he won't do that.

So, putting that thought together, Malice versus Sesh would have to contend with the fact that Sesh is stronger than Malice, but Malice could put more "Archlord-plus" allies in the field, complicated by whatever's going on with the Wastelanders internally and the Tidewalkers being implied to be off the northern coast of the Ashwind continent, and having expansionistic ideas about the land there. The Blackflame Empire has a couple mentions of a northern wall to keep foes from the sea out. It's not explicit but a reasonable assumption that this either is the Tidewalkers or includes the Tidewalkers.

The forces in the "Reaper" chunk, then, are the result of Northstrider having negotiated the Wastelanders' services, and the "Dreadgod" one either from one of the Monarchs continuing to make it worth their while and/or the Wastelanders just recognizing that turning Dreadgods away from your continent is just better than them rampaging close to home.

...Yeah, I put a lot of thought into Cradle's factions and politics when I started planning my currently-running Cradle quest.
 
VagueZ said:
The forces in the "Reaper" chunk, then, are the result of Northstrider having negotiated the Wastelanders' services, and the "Dreadgod" one either from one of the Monarchs continuing to make it worth their while and/or the Wastelanders just recognizing that turning Dreadgods away from your continent is just better than them rampaging close to home.
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I also suspect that the turnout in Dreadgod is also due to the fact that for the first time since the dreadwar all four dreadgods are fully awake, self-aware, and rampaging, which causes even significant existences like Sages and Heralds to look to the Monarchs for protection/guidance. I suspect that those sages went to Malice rather than the other way around. Malice said something along the lines of "anyone not under the protection of a monarch is likely to have a miserable time"
Maping said:
Northstrider is also a bit weird. Supposedly he doesn't hold any territory but the Wasteland sages and heralds sorta cluster under his banner, and compete in his name in the Uncrowned King Tournament.
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Will mentioned that this is inertia mostly, that there were a bunch of people who competed under NS's banner for a while.
 
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Boss Hoss said:
I'd love to see Taylor running a sect, if only because canon skipped Lindon doing that and I'd like to see it.
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Honestly it'd probably be pretty good practice for both Taylor and Mercy, in terms of long-term large-group administration. This serves the triple purpose of (a) something to do with all the refugees besides just dumping them on the Blackflame Empire, (b) giving Taylor and Mercy experience, and (c) something to do with the land the Temple of the Rising Earth used to occupy (we're never told what happened to it in canon).
 
Stahor said:
As non-Cradle reader, how exceptional sage is?
For example, in Akura clan? I gather there Charity, Fury (was), and Malice herself.
Does this mean that essentially, besides their Monarch, they only have one? And those numbers are representative for other big players?
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The top spot is Monarch, of which there are like 8 in the whole world currently. In truth, monarch is just achieving both of the second-level options: Herald and Sage. Malice is a Monarch.

A Herald is a person who has merged with their own Remnant (basically a ghost made of your cultivation) to massively enhance their body and madra/qi reserves. A Sage is a person that has comprehended a single aspect of the multiverse, what more traditional cultivation might call a Dao and Cradle calls an Icon.

One estimate I saw put there as 40 Sages and Heralds, total, on all of Cradle.
 
what was the point of Taylors training with the Oracle Sage chick? cause literally it read like she did not accomplish anything and it was all for not there was no pay off. Is this a Taylor must suffer fic? but slower?
 
Helkil said:
what was the point of Taylors training with the Oracle Sage chick? cause literally it read like she did not accomplish anything and it was all for not there was no pay off. Is this a Taylor must suffer fic? but slower?
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It was willpower and observation training.
 
Helkil said:
what was the point of Taylors training with the Oracle Sage chick? cause literally it read like she did not accomplish anything and it was all for not there was no pay off. Is this a Taylor must suffer fic? but slower?
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It lays groundwork for what she does in the most recent chapter

Killing Sophara after attaining the Shadow Icon's Acknowledgement/Sagedom at Overlord, which is highly unusual/exceptional in the context of the Cradle setting, typically people only attain Sagedom/Heralddom at the Archlord Stage
 
I'm gonna stop I just can't continue reading when stories blue ball you into expecting a outcome or payoff that fits the tension and it never arrives.
please tell me when Seph dies by Taylors hand and what chapter it's the only way I can concentrate/focus on the goings of the story and characters I'm running on close to 2 day no sleep cause this shit and that chap with training tay to win batle wit seph had all tenion but no payofflose9hnuvdddddddddddddddd i'm bed
 
Helkil said:
I'm gonna stop I just can't continue reading when stories blue ball you into expecting a outcome or payoff that fits the tension and it never arrives.
please tell me when Seph dies by Taylors hand and what chapter it's the only way I can concentrate/focus on the goings of the story and characters I'm running on close to 2 day no sleep cause this shit and that chap with training tay to win batle wit seph had all tenion but no payofflose9hnuvdddddddddddddddd i'm bed
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Taylor kills Sophara in Penumbra 3.6
 
Helkil said:
I'm gonna stop I just can't continue reading when stories blue ball you into expecting a outcome or payoff that fits the tension and it never arrives.
please tell me when Seph dies by Taylors hand and what chapter it's the only way I can concentrate/focus on the goings of the story and characters I'm running on close to 2 day no sleep cause this shit and that chap with training tay to win batle wit seph had all tenion but no payofflose9hnuvdddddddddddddddd i'm bed
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If you have such a weak stomach for drama even when it's this light, I don't think you should be reading anything on SV or SB.
 
DoorAlarm said:
If you have such a weak stomach for drama even when it's this light, I don't think you should be reading anything on SV or SB.
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Truth. I've walked away from stories because of tension before but that's when trauma and uphill battles and threats worse than death stack up for something like 50k words or more with no end in site. This? Taylor wasn't even at risk of death most of this fic.
 
Honestly, I'd prefer a number of people stop reading instead of making very annoying complaints. Not that I dislike constructive criticism, just that it's actually been annoyingly difficult to make myself continue reading through the non-story posts with so many complaints I vehemently disagree with. I suppose binging the thread over the past few days also might've contributed to how annoying it feels by getting such a concentrated dose, but it's amazing how entitled, demanding, and generally shitty some of those complainers have been.

I'm loving the story and looking forward to more!
 
megamiaouh said:
This is why reader mode was invented, you're suffering from your own actions dude.
At the end of the day this is a forum, reader participation is part of the process and like I mentioned there's an option to ignore it if you want.
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No, I completely understand that I could skip it, but I haven't read Cradle and the discussion in between chapters was both interesting and useful for better understanding the story. It's just that interspersed among the interesting discussion of the story and its setting was a bunch of whiny complaints that soured some of my enjoyment and made me just want to skip to the next chapter. I ended up skipping a lot of posts that looked like complaints after a while, honestly.

Again, I'm all for constructive criticism that can help an author, but there were a ton of posts that were basically "Why isn't Taylor more badass/cool/dominating the story? Without Taylor being the badass that takes over the plot by being awesome, all of the exploration of the setting and description of her training and interaction with other characters was pointless and boring, setup with no pay-off! Why am I even reading this?" It got more annoying when people seemed to continue giving the same basic complaints repeatedly, as if complaining even louder will change the fact that this story is not the OP-Taylor-powerwank they're looking for.
 
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Dudeman said:
No, I completely understand that I could skip it, but I haven't read Cradle and the discussion in between chapters was both interesting and useful for better understanding the story. It's just that interspersed among the interesting discussion of the story and its setting was a bunch of whiny complaints that soured some of my enjoyment and made me just want to skip to the next chapter. I ended up skipping a lot of posts that looked like complaints after a while, honestly.

Again, I'm all for constructive criticism that can help an author, but there were a ton of posts that were basically "Why isn't Taylor more badass/cool/dominating the story? Without Taylor being the badass that takes over the plot by being awesome, all of the exploration of the setting and description of her training and interaction with other characters was pointless and boring, setup with no pay-off! Why am I even reading this?" It got more annoying when people seemed to continue giving the same basic complaints repeatedly, as if complaining even louder will change the fact that this story is not the OP-Taylor-powerwank they're looking for.
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I'm not sure what you're expecting. You're on SV, reading Worm fanfiction. It goes without saying that a large percentage of the audience are shallow and just want OP Taylor powerwank idiocy. If you've been part of any kind of fanfiction community for any appreciable amount of time, you will eventually come to the understanding that a vast majority of the audience for any kind of fanfiction are "Jared, 19, and never learned how to read".

If it really bothers you that much, I would recommend actually reading the Cradle series instead of the comments between chapters. If you like this story, you will undoubtedly like Cradle.
 
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