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Overlady: Attack of the Minions (Thread II)

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Aleph said:
... you mean, like... maybe the multiple infernal journals covering their dance together that her husband explicitly subscribes to?
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Ok, that part I had forgotten about.
No, because the magic she's been casting her entire life was, astonishingly, "uncontrolled explosions", not "explicitly Evil spells from Evil spellbooks that are used by Evil mages to do Evil".
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Funnilly enough it was still powered by Evil magic, which is why none of it would work.
Hardly. I get that Louise being on Henrietta's side might have swayed you along with her, but the fact is; Karin is not on Henrietta's side. Henrietta fucked up. She is an adulteress who promised herself to one man and then got engaged to another, and had sex outside of marriage on top of that. Her actions have destroyed the legitimacy of her claim to the throne, endangered all of Tristain by damaging the alliance with Germania they were depending on, and the queen is completely incapable of ruling in her current state. The Council are the only viable choice capable of ruling Tristain, and Louise is murdering them.
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The council is *not* a viable choice for ruling Tristain. Least of all reasons being their own undeniable corruption.
Yes, of course, let's trust the word of the vampire who's thrown her careful Good conditioning out the window, given into her instincts and is regularly murdering large numbers of people, gorging herself on human blood and making huge groups of monstrous familiars bloated on hellish power. I'm sure we can believe her when she says that Louise isn't an Evil influence on her and that it's all a misunderstanding. Definitely.
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Unless there's an instance I can't remember Cattleya hasn't actually killed anyone who wasn't trying to kill her first. ... Or was evil/Evil.
She's not wrongly imprisoned, you twit.
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She did exactly what she was imprisoned for. She is an adulteress who is ineligible for marriage because she promised herself eternally to a dead man. She cannot marry, and that means that she singlehandedly wrecked Tristain's best hope for an alliance with Germania - and now she's sullied her reputation and is a dreadful choice for the throne, even worse than her mother.
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Unless I'm remembering wrong, which I might be (re-reading to find it would suuuuck because it wouldn't be able to enjoy it), Comte de Mott is actually singlehandedly responsible for the loss of alliance with Germania, and the sullying of her reputation, because he neglected the duty he was charged with to retrieve the letter that ruined both.
She despises the Evil taint to the royal family and the church, and explicitly says that there is no excuse for Evil deeds. Which Louise is committing. In bulk.
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Except that's where we disagree. Murdering usurpers to the throne and razing corrupt cities is very much a Good thing because no, the regency council isn't a valid or viable way to secure the throne both because they're hopelessly corrupt and... well... rather stupid.
You are starting from the OOC knowledge that Louise is not evil and using it to ignore or wave away the obvious, self-evident facts. Karin has absolutely no reason to do that. All of the precedent, all of the evidence and all of Louise's actions point to her being evil with a 99.999% confidence - worse by far than the bear man or the evil clown that Guiche & co killed, who might have had similarly noble motivations. Karin is not going to hang around and give a threat to all Tristain the benefit of the doubt based on that tiny remaining sliver of a chance. If she was the kind of person to do that, someone would have long ago exploited it, and she would be dead.

I mean, ffs:

Bolded for friggin' emphasis.
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Actually I'm well aware Louise is Evil with the capital E. Evil with a capital E however, isn't always actually bad. And as far as the people Guiche and co have killed go... they were both fucking insane and ya know... killing people, random citizenry. Now Louise isn't exactly a beacon of mental fortitude herself but she has yet to just walk into a random town and ya know start laughing maniacally and murdering people.
 
True she's evil with standards, given time to develop she could end up being the sort of evil that removing makes things worse. Of course it seems odds are against her for getting to that point though given Karin and other heroes are running around. A million to one odds I am thinking.
 
Alane1 said:
True she's evil with standards, given time to develop she could end up being the sort of evil that removing makes things worse. Of course it seems odds are against her for getting to that point though given Karin and other heroes are running around. A million to one odds I am thinking.
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The real problem with that is that the type of Good ES has constantly stated Karin is... won't care. That's the problem I have with it and why I do admittedly try to ignore her existance as anything more than something to be used as a joke because honestly... I don't see this story going in a direction I'll care to finish reading if she finds out about Louise and acts according to ES' narrative says she would.
 
Selonianth said:
The real problem with that is that the type of Good ES has constantly stated Karin is... won't care. That's the problem I have with it and why I do admittedly try to ignore her existance as anything more than something to be used as a joke because honestly... I don't see this story going in a direction I'll care to finish reading if she finds out about Louise and acts according to ES' narrative says she would.
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We do have to remember that Karin isn't a perfect Hero, as the existence of Ellanore would attest. Factor in retirement and the stresses of Louise's disappearance and top it off with the revelations of basically all her kids' wrongdoing, and you've got some seriously shit going into the head of someone who is used to things being simpler.
 
Selonianth said:
Unless I'm remembering wrong, which I might be (re-reading to find it would suuuuck because it wouldn't be able to enjoy it), Comte de Mott is actually singlehandedly responsible for the loss of alliance with Germania, and the sullying of her reputation, because he neglected the duty he was charged with to retrieve the letter that ruined both.
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"I did a thing I wasn't supposed to which lots of people including the ruler of the kingdom next door who I was supposed to marry to seal an alliance disapprove of, but it's totally someone else's fault that my reputation is ruined and the treaty is lost because that person didn't cover up for me" is not actually a terribly compelling defence.
 
grommile said:
"I did a thing I wasn't supposed to which lots of people including the ruler of the kingdom next door who I was supposed to marry to seal an alliance disapprove of, but it's totally someone else's fault that my reputation is ruined and the treaty is lost because that person didn't cover up for me" is not actually a terribly compelling defence.
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This is why we let the demon lawyer do the talking and don't represent ourselves.
 
Selonianth said:
Ok, that part I had forgotten about.

Funnilly enough it was still powered by Evil magic, which is why none of it would work.

The council is *not* a viable choice for ruling Tristain. Least of all reasons being their own undeniable corruption.

Unless there's an instance I can't remember Cattleya hasn't actually killed anyone who wasn't trying to kill her first. ... Or was evil/Evil.

Unless I'm remembering wrong, which I might be (re-reading to find it would suuuuck because it wouldn't be able to enjoy it), Comte de Mott is actually singlehandedly responsible for the loss of alliance with Germania, and the sullying of her reputation, because he neglected the duty he was charged with to retrieve the letter that ruined both.

Except that's where we disagree. Murdering usurpers to the throne and razing corrupt cities is very much a Good thing because no, the regency council isn't a valid or viable way to secure the throne both because they're hopelessly corrupt and... well... rather stupid.

Actually I'm well aware Louise is Evil with the capital E. Evil with a capital E however, isn't always actually bad. And as far as the people Guiche and co have killed go... they were both fucking insane and ya know... killing people, random citizenry. Now Louise isn't exactly a beacon of mental fortitude herself but she has yet to just walk into a random town and ya know start laughing maniacally and murdering people.
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None of this is knowledge that Karin would have though. Nor would anyone she's in contact with, except the council who would obviously not be willing to share their own damning secrets.
 
grommile said:
"I did a thing I wasn't supposed to which lots of people including the ruler of the kingdom next door who I was supposed to marry to seal an alliance disapprove of, but it's totally someone else's fault that my reputation is ruined and the treaty is lost because that person didn't cover up for me" is not actually a terribly compelling defence.
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Which would be true in our society.

In one ran more like this... Well, Comte de Mott was charged with a duty to retrieve a letter, instead he took the letter and iirc actually used it to discredit Henrietta, because of the aforementioned council being hopelessly corrupt.
king208 said:
None of this is knowledge that Karin would have though. Nor would anyone she's in contact with, except the council who would obviously not be willing to share their own damning secrets.
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Oh please. All of the nobles we've seen so far have definitely been aware of it, and most of them with every reason to hate the council themselves.
 
Selonianth said:
In one ran more like this... Well, Comte de Mott was charged with a duty to retrieve a letter, instead he took the letter and iirc actually used it to discredit Henrietta, because of the aforementioned council being hopelessly corrupt.
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That just means he should get hung out to dry with her.
 
grommile said:
That just means he should get hung out to dry with her.
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As a point, it's not *what* she did. So much as everyone knowing about it. Which is his fault, because he TOLD everyone. So yes, very much "shame on you" to her, but ultimately as far as who actually caused the treaty and everything to fall apart? Actually Comte de Mott and the Regency council. Henrietta made it possible, but they DID it.
 
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Hmm well lord Vetinari they are not. I mean the cardinal's historical counterpart was infamious for his greed and only survived a popular royalist uprising against him led by the nobles and surported by the people by extreme luck.
 
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Selonianth said:
Unless I'm remembering wrong, which I might be (re-reading to find it would suuuuck because it wouldn't be able to enjoy it), Comte de Mott is actually singlehandedly responsible for the loss of alliance with Germania, and the sullying of her reputation, because he neglected the duty he was charged with to retrieve the letter that ruined both.
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I thought it was Wardes who was supposed to retrieve the letter and instead published it. And IIRC, hasn't the Council formed a treaty with Reconquista. That is to say, they formed an alliance with a revolutionary movement that WIPED OUT A ROYAL FAMILY DESCENDED FROM THE FOUNDER! That's an entire bloodline wiped out, thanks to them the only hope for keeping Albion's piece of the Void from vanishing forever is chock full of Elven blood, and the Church doesn't even know about Tiffania yet. Hmmm. I wonder what they'd consider worse, a Void bloodline completely annihilated beyond hope of recovery or a Void Bloodline chock full of Elf DNA.

As to Henrietta's alleged crimes, I thought she was still a virgin? She was basically imprisoned for writing an erotic letter. Do they even have proof that the letter Wardes published was actually written by Henrietta or is everyone just taking his word for it?
 
JumperPrime said:
I thought it was Wardes who was supposed to retrieve the letter and instead published it. And IIRC, hasn't the Council formed a treaty with Reconquista. That is to say, they formed an alliance with a revolutionary movement that WIPED OUT A ROYAL FAMILY DESCENDED FROM THE FOUNDER! That's an entire bloodline wiped out, thanks to them the only hope for keeping Albion's piece of the Void from vanishing forever is chock full of Elven blood, and the Church doesn't even know about Tiffania yet. Hmmm. I wonder what they'd consider worse, a Void bloodline completely annihilated beyond hope of recovery or a Void Bloodline chock full of Elf DNA.

As to Henrietta's alleged crimes, I thought she was still a virgin? She was basically imprisoned for writing an erotic letter. Do they even have proof that the letter Wardes published was actually written by Henrietta or is everyone just taking his word for it?
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See... I knew there was something wrong with it being Comte de Mott but I couldn't remember what it was.

But yea, the rest of that yea.

BadRoad said:
It seems like every two or three chapters we get someone who wants to argue moral relativity in a setting that the author has repeatedly and explicitly stated contains Good and Evil as verifiable physical forces.
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Because funnily enough Good doesn't mean Nice and Evil doesn't mean Mean or Cruel. Not inherrently.
 
BadRoad said:
It seems like every two or three chapters we get someone who wants to argue moral relativity in a setting that the author has repeatedly and explicitly stated contains Good and Evil as verifiable physical forces.
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In a fic where the Evil protagonist and her accomplices are mostly good and the Good antagonists are very obviously evil? I wonder why that might be.
 
JumperPrime said:
I thought it was Wardes who was supposed to retrieve the letter and instead published it. And IIRC, hasn't the Council formed a treaty with Reconquista. That is to say, they formed an alliance with a revolutionary movement that WIPED OUT A ROYAL FAMILY DESCENDED FROM THE FOUNDER! That's an entire bloodline wiped out, thanks to them the only hope for keeping Albion's piece of the Void from vanishing forever is chock full of Elven blood, and the Church doesn't even know about Tiffania yet. Hmmm. I wonder what they'd consider worse, a Void bloodline completely annihilated beyond hope of recovery or a Void Bloodline chock full of Elf DNA.

As to Henrietta's alleged crimes, I thought she was still a virgin? She was basically imprisoned for writing an erotic letter. Do they even have proof that the letter Wardes published was actually written by Henrietta or is everyone just taking his word for it?
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She still is. Here's the relevant quote:

Part 7-2 said:
"Wow. So you and your prince never… you know?"

"I remain a pure virgin of the royal blood of Brimir!" Henrietta declared triumphantly, putting her hands on her hips. "We were very careful to make sure of that. It would have been very wrong for us to act in such an inappropriate way as to make love before we were married!"
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The letter was obviously nothing more than an excuse for the Council to usurp power, while getting the Queen – weak-willed twit that she is – to go along with it.
 
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Oh, but Good and Evil ARE a thing! Everyone just got things a bit backwards in the six or so millennia since Brimir's death!
 
SwiftRosenthal said:
In a fic where the Evil protagonist and her accomplices are mostly good and the Good antagonists are very obviously evil? I wonder why that might be.
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Henriette is a necromancer, Jess is a half-incubus who is fully on the side of evil, Catt is a vampire who loves to eat people and basically anything else filled with blood. Everyone else on her side is minions.

Her accomplices are far and away from Good.
 
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