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Overlady: Attack of the Minions (Thread II)

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Selonianth said:
... One joke causes an avalanche. This really is SV/SB style thread-discussion.
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I would like to apologize for starting it...

So, we already know that Karin will likely 'mercy' kill Louise - is there any chance that she might hold off on that until AFTER Louise has caused a ton of damage to the govt.? 'Necessary Evil' and all that...
 
Alane1 said:
So Louise and the princess has some lets say hmm interesting ancestry even when you exclude Brimir who while the halk humans view him as a holy figure is seen as being the devil(especially by the elves who don't even refer to him by name like it would somehow summon him up from his apparent grave). Necromancers, cultists, vampires, and possibly worse.

Is there any evil entities that isn't in the ancestral background of those two especially Louise?
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Louise and Henriette share most of their ancestors, and are easily linked to anyone important in either family.

As for evil entities that aren't in the blood, I can't see there being anything that a human couldn't become or breed with being there. Aside from elf. Pretty sure there ain't any elf in the blood.

Dragontrapper said:
I would like to apologize for starting it...

So, we already know that Karin will likely 'mercy' kill Louise - is there any chance that she might hold off on that until AFTER Louise has caused a ton of damage to the govt.? 'Necessary Evil' and all that...
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Honestly we don't know enough about Karin right now to make too much of a decision. Sure the speculation has been fun, but it's not looking like Louise will ever run into her until she takes the throne.

Maybe the heroic interludes will at some point cover her. Probably from the perspective of our hero party, but Karin herself or even her hubby being involved more in the story and us seeing their thoughts would be great.
 
Dragontrapper said:
So, we already know that Karin will likely 'mercy' kill Louise - is there any chance that she might hold off on that until AFTER Louise has caused a ton of damage to the govt.? 'Necessary Evil' and all that...
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No. If you see Karin, you're only seconds from death. If you don't see Karin, it may already be too late.

If Karin thought it was necessary to kill the Regency Council, she'd already have done it herself. There are only two possible reasons Karin hasn't already killed the Overlady of the North. Either she doesn't know where to find her, or she hasn't decided it's important enough yet.
 
xeivous said:
Louise and Henriette share most of their ancestors, and are easily linked to anyone important in either family.

As for evil entities that aren't in the blood, I can't see there being anything that a human couldn't become or breed with being there. Aside from elf. Pretty sure there ain't any elf in the blood.


Honestly we don't know enough about Karin right now to make too much of a decision. Sure the speculation has been fun, but it's not looking like Louise will ever run into her until she takes the throne.

Maybe the heroic interludes will at some point cover her. Probably from the perspective of our hero party, but Karin herself or even her hubby being involved more in the story and us seeing their thoughts would be great.
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Actually Brimir was married to an Elf in Canon, so presumably the Royal Families which claim descent from him come from his half elven kids.

It's just that towards the end he went off his rocker (for unknown reasons) and his wife had to kill him and left for her homeland, pregnant with another kid.

The Elves viewed her as a saintlike figure, and it is strongly implied Tiffania is descended from the kid she was pregnant with when she returned.

At least that was the way it was when I last looked a while back. We might have gotten better translations which contradict this since then.

Notably from this the only bearers of the Brimir's Power of the Void who would not have Elven Blood are the Romalians, since the first Pope was Brimir's student and received his power from Brimir.

Which means that if the Pope were able to cast the Genocide Spell with Elves as a target, well then it kills of most off the non Romalian Nobles and places the Power of the Void solely in his Blood Line.

Again it has been quite some time since I last checked this so better translations then what I had access to might have contradicted it by now.

No idea how EarthScorpion would handle this in story.

Well we will find out more about this when the Light Novel series ends. Apparently before dying the Author of Zero no Tsukaima did write down notes on how he wanted it to end, and his family is following through on his wishes and finishing the series.
 
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BadRoad said:
No. If you see Karin, you're only seconds from death. If you don't see Karin, it may already be too late.

If Karin thought it was necessary to kill the Regency Council, she'd already have done it herself. There are only two possible reasons Karin hasn't already killed the Overlady of the North. Either she doesn't know where to find her, or she hasn't decided it's important enough yet.
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There are all sorts of reasons why she can't kill the Council. Nothing to do with capability, but reasons nonetheless. After all she's not very happy with them at all and honestly doesn't even need to get her hands dirty as she can just let the Overlady do them in.

KageX said:
-snipped for space-
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Ah. Yeah I'm not so familiar with the series proper. Haven't had the time to sink into it, and honestly the OG version of it doesn't sound like it appeals to me all that much outside of the setting's potential for crossovers.
 
xeivous said:
There are all sorts of reasons why she can't kill the Council. Nothing to do with capability, but reasons nonetheless. After all she's not very happy with them at all and honestly doesn't even need to get her hands dirty as she can just let the Overlady do them in.
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That's not how Karin works. She does not mind getting her hands dirty if someone needs killing. She hasn't killed the Regency Council because they're the Government. Liking them doesn't enter into it.
 
I'm completely positive that not only is it not because they're the government (they're not the royal family, which is the only thing that could stay her hand) but I am pretty sure she simply isn't aware they're the real problem yet.
 
Dragontrapper said:
So, we already know that Karin will likely 'mercy' kill Louise - is there any chance that she might hold off on that until AFTER Louise has caused a ton of damage to the govt.? 'Necessary Evil' and all that...
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Every second she delays is a second longer for Louise's immortal soul to be in peril, and do recall that Karin is in all likelihood a genuine believer. Hell, in the Overladyverse she may even be 100% correct. So no, I suspect she'd kill Louise instantly to save her from damnation.
 
Aleph said:
Every second she delays is a second longer for Louise's immortal soul to be in peril, and do recall that Karin is in all likelihood a genuine believer. Hell, in the Overladyverse she may even be 100% correct. So no, I suspect she'd kill Louise instantly to save her from damnation.
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Ehh... Overlord has always been deliciously... *hand waggles* on which side is actually right to think they're the right side.

And you'd think that... except it doesn't quite gel with how she treated Cattleya. Vampirism, especially inflicted by someone as evil as that infected her, is about as evil as it can get.

I'd think it would come down to if Karin determines that what Louise is DOING is evil, not her title as Overlady. And then we consider the Rule of Steel...

... And also note that the entire Brimiric religion is a farce here, Brimir himself being a lying dick.
 
Selonianth said:
And you'd think that... except it doesn't quite gel with how she treated Cattleya. Vampirism, especially inflicted by someone as evil as that infected her, is about as evil as it can get.
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Yes, but you can't kill a vampire, short of having another vampire eat them. Louise's soul can be freed to go to Heaven. Cattleya's is eternally bound to her flesh. Stake her through the heart, burn her to ash and scatter her to the four corners of the world; it still won't release her soul. It'll just mean that if somehow she ever does come back, she'll be completely insane and inhuman.

And Evil is a thing in Overlady, which means presumably Good is as well [1]. As a heroine, Karin reads very much as someone who genuinely believes what they practice - much like Guiche. I'm not the one writing the story, but I very much think that to preserve her narrative weight, it should be highly probable that she would kill Louise as fast as possible because - in her paradigm - it is the best thing she can do for her daughter.

[1] And yes, it might not be exactly the same thing as little-g "good". But while not all evil is Evil, Evil is rather a subset of evil. Louise is essentially the only one acting Evil without being evil in some way, so I'd imagine that Good at least overlaps with genuine little-g good. Also the Abyss exists (and is in many ways a horrible place, even if it has oddities and non-standard qualities), so I'm guessing Heaven does as well in some form. Even if it's a form with similar idiosyncrasies.
 
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Aleph said:
Yes, but you can't kill a vampire, short of having another vampire eat them. Louise's soul can be freed to go to Heaven. Cattleya's is eternally bound to her flesh. Stake her through the heart, burn her to ash and scatter her to the four corners of the world; it still won't release her soul. It'll just mean that if somehow she ever does come back, she'll be completely insane and inhuman.

And Evil is a thing in Overlady, which means presumably Good is as well. And as a heroine, Karin reads very much as someone who genuinely believes what they practice - much like Guiche. I'm not the one writing the story, but I very much think that to preserve her narrative weight, it should be highly probable that she would kill Louise as fast as possible because - in her paradigm - it is the best thing she can do for her daughter.
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Correction, you can't kill a vampire like Louis. Cattleya is much less powerful and easy to kill (before eating Louis that is). At least, that was how I understood it... would honestly need something from ES to prove me wrong for me to think otherwise.

And sure, Evil is a thing, so Good is too, but that's not saying she's correct in any way to think what she might. The god they pray to is certainly a crock-o-poo (even if he isn't the religion IS) and to be frank, even if it wasn't Louise' soul was apparently "doomed" a long, long, long time ago.
 
Selonianth said:
Correction, you can't kill a vampire like Louis. Cattleya is much less powerful and easy to kill (before eating Louis that is). At least, that was how I understood it... would honestly need something from ES to prove me wrong for me to think otherwise.
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Okay.
EarthScorpion said:
Ah, you see. That is the perennial trick of the vampire. There is no afterlife to snare their soul, no damnation or salvation - barring a few exceptional circumstances, nothing to hold them back once redead from resuming their endless existence if they can just get more life energy. The purpose of scattering the vampire's ashes as far as one humanly can isn't some punishment; it's to raise how much life force would be needed to resurrect them from ashes to prohibitive levels. With an intact corpse, as little as a single life can be required; if you just have a fingernail's worth of ash, that's... pretty damn costly.

Their soul is stagnant, withered, and oh so very hungry. The difference between a vampire who has gone too long without feeding and a vampire whose head has been cut off is non-existent; all they need is more lifeforce to resume their unlife.

So... cut off Cattleya's head, stake her, burn her, and as long as Louise can get all her remains she'll only need to put at most a few horses's worth of life force into her to bring her back. Admittedly, she'll be somewhat crazier from the time spent dead - one of the reasons vampires tend towards the 'hilariously insane' - and more withered and dead-looking in appearance [1], but the latter will fade with time and consumed lives.

[1] Hence why vampires who aren't too good at staying alive tend towards the nosferatu or the 'rotting corpse' in appearance.
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And as to your other point...
Selonianth said:
And sure, Evil is a thing, so Good is too, but that's not saying she's correct in any way to think what she might. The god they pray to is certainly a crock-o-poo (even if he isn't the religion IS) and to be frank, even if it wasn't Louise' soul was apparently "doomed" a long, long, long time ago.
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Yeah, about that.
EarthScorpion said:
To put it another way, "everyone is just Evil really" is boring. Guiche, Kirche and Monmon are all broadly heroic, and Tabitha is the party's antihero. If everyone's a bad guy for realz, then it just turns into a dark mire and then you stub your toe because you can't see where you're going. And of course, I'm doing a pastiche of fantasy, and that means that the small band of heroes actually have to be heroes. And also, yes, killing machines who can blenderise their way through vast swathes of bad guys. Fantasy pastiche, after all.
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It doesn't matter if Karin's faith is right or not (though I suspect she might be, broadly - after all, outside of Jess, Lilly and maybe Izah'belya and Scarron, the Abyss pretty much is genuinely evil for the most part, so Heaven should presumably be mostly-good-with-a-few-oddities-and-exceptiions). What matters is what she believes, and I very much think that yeah, she is genuinely devout and heroic. Hence, kill Louise as soon as possible, because if there's anything left of her soul then it needs to be saved ASAP and if there isn't then she's a monster who needs to die for the good of the nation.
 
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Though admittedly kinslaying is considered a specially evil even if said target deserved it so I imagine that might be seen as a victory by the forces of evil if she is unrepentant about it.

Nothing like a hero dooming their souls while being righteus about it I suppose. Though given how much she seems to terrorize them I can't imagine they'd want her down there even after death to avoid her pulling heroics after death as a few heroes have.
 
Aleph said:
I suspect she might be, broadly - after all, outside of Jess, Lilly and maybe Izah'belya and Scarron
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Scarron: "Excuse me! I am not Good. I am a demon prince! I'm just trapped by the machinations of a hero and when I am free, there will be much lamentation and wailing and revenge. Yes, lots and lots of revenge. Unfortunately my binding prevents me from trying to find a way to escape my binding, but I am immortal. I can wait."
 
The solution for Louise is to ensure that the fate of the nation and all innocent souls residing therein depends on her continued survival thus forcing Karin to conceed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.
Or that she is all but irrevocably damned but that her continued actionscan result in the salvation of many, which just might be key for Louises redemption.

Of course both of those plans depend on Karin not determining Louise is lost, it is an Evil plot, minimize casaulties.

Edit: I mean of course, the needs of l'Roy outweighs the needs of the one.
 
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Arcus2611 said:
So, that vampire who Louise reduced to cinders...
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Is not coming back without his ashes being gathered and a shitload of blood being funnelled into them in a massive necromantic ritual.

At which point, should someone bother to go to all that trouble, Louise would probably just incinerate him again. Because unlike Louis, he was neither smart nor particularly powerful, and likely didn't set up groups of minions with orders to revive him should he ever be killed, because he was a one-note minor antagonist speedbump.
 
That makes Vampirism a lot more of a curse than some settings, since sooner or later something's going to kill you and you won't get to enjoy the afterlife.

Of course, it also makes Vampirism a great tool for people who don't want their souls burned for fuel in the Abyss, but can't bring themselves to actually be good.
 
SolipsistSerpent said:
It's particularly bizarre when you realize he could have just grafted arms to the snake body, the way the bear-man did to his bear body. Admittedly, that would require a pretty big snake to avoid throwing the balance entirely out of wack.
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That can be solved with more arms, actually.

Alane1 said:
Though admittedly kinslaying is considered a specially evil even if said target deserved it so I imagine that might be seen as a victory by the forces of evil if she is unrepentant about it.
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Fantasy (which is what ES is mostly parodying here) is more liberal on that point: it's perfectly Good to kill a tyrant. At least as long as you have a Good rightful heir around to take the throne afterwards.
 
Just dropping by to check on this story, because it's really funny. Well, it's pretty funny. I suppose. Not quite as funny as the funniest post on Sufficient Velocity, obviously, but where would we all be without goals in life? Everyone needs something to aim for.

Dragontrapper said:
So, we already know that Karin will likely 'mercy' kill Louise - is there any chance that she might hold off on that until AFTER Louise has caused a ton of damage to the govt.? 'Necessary Evil' and all that...
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I suspect Karin would take a very direct and violent issue with the idea that there can be such a thing as a "Necessary Evil".

It simply means you're not trying hard enough, or aiming high enough.

xenondestroyer said:
Corrections brought to you by a resident italian :V
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Where's Italy?

This is a local dialect of Romalian, so it's fine.

Everything is fine.
 
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