- Location
- in the trash
Emperor Lee: "Ah yes, I had that done to one of my rivals once. Bag, shank, and dump the corpse in a river. Then kill the bandits you hired so no one will know you hired them to do it."
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Overlady: Attack of the Minions (Thread II)
- Thread starter EarthScorpion
- Start date
- Fantasy
Emperor Lee: "Ah yes, I had that done to one of my rivals once. Bag, shank, and dump the corpse in a river. Then kill the bandits you hired so no one will know you hired them to do it."
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
On a side note anyone else think that the Minions (or at least Gnarl) are aware of when time is altered using this spell? I say this mostly because in the explanation for it Gnarl was able to recall the bit that was undone.
- Location
- Can't read map
For all we know Gnarl could be spirit of first Overlord (or first Evil element minion with 1000X more Evil energy then normal Evil minions, who served as advisor, as they seem intelligent before exploding, no broken words?) possessing random minion, and since original necromancy was calling ghosts to ask on future or past as they aren't too connected with time...
Or is immortal time traveller explaining how is every overlord advised by minion name Gnarl.
Has
He was right next to caster of time breaking spell and so preserved his memory?
Other ideas how Gnarl could have cheated to get that knowledge?
- Location
- Spain
Dios Time Loop, he's always there, just that when the loop resets he's sent all the way back to the start (with or without memory, who knows).
While the easy answer would be "Gnarl was standing near the caster and thus his memory was preserved", I don't think it's inherently the best answer. Gnarl might just know things because he's the Gnarl, the eternal right hand (because the left is the Gauntlet) of the Overperson. He exists to serve the position and advise, tutor, provide exposition for, raise from childhood, and / or breed the current incumbent as needed. What Gnarl is beyond that is probably the same sort of mystery that is "what is under the loincloth of a minion?"
Prince Charon
Just zis guy, you know?
The difference is that we may want to know more about what Gnarl is, but we really don't want to know the latter.
i believe the answer is more Minion Skin and that Gnarl as a creation of Evil made from Evil is more or less indiferent to things that alter his own mind.
why? because Evil always finds a way, that's why.
why? because Evil always finds a way, that's why.
- Location
- Bs. As.
Or, the caster was Gnarl. Somehow. For all we know, King Julius the Benevolent might have just been an overlord that managed to purify the void or something and someone had to take steps to correct that.
Not that I actually believe Gnarl was the caster, but it's good to consider all options.
Not that I actually believe Gnarl was the caster, but it's good to consider all options.
no, Gnarl wouldn't step that low as actually doing something, more likely he just 'suggested' and 'implied'... and made King Julius the Benevolent cast ?Time Shatter' under the guise of "no this TOTALLY is not going to erease you from the worldline, trust me"
Somehow, I just can't get my head around the idea of Gnarrl being responsible for the casting of the spell. It doesn't seem to be his style. It never has. Gnarrl is always really straightforward and simple. Cunning, yes, and brilliant, but not inclined to take the massively technical or indirect routes to solving problems. It's part and parcel of the whole thing with him trying to kill Louise in the first chapters--a less direct force of Evil would have just let her go, because she is clearly more lucky than skilled, or even sought to corrupt her to their own ends, but Gnarrl just straight up tried to kill her, and be on his evil little way. It's pretty much the only way his thought processes resemble those of the standard minion, really.
And even with that, I sometimes wonder if Gnarrl is Evil, or more of a check or a balance upon Evil, to make sure that it can never truly take over the world. After all, he does seem to put in an awful lot of time thwarting the schemes of the truly evil, does he not?
And even with that, I sometimes wonder if Gnarrl is Evil, or more of a check or a balance upon Evil, to make sure that it can never truly take over the world. After all, he does seem to put in an awful lot of time thwarting the schemes of the truly evil, does he not?
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
Well if we work off the theory that those in the room where the ritual takes place are aware of the timeline rewrite then it is possible that Gnarl was just there when the spell was originally cast.
It is the simplest version, yes. There is only one question...
How "the room" is determined by the ritual?
So, I would say that only the operators of the ritual are aware of the it, where "operator" means mage who has initiated ritual and those mages who came in contact with the initiator by virtue of slinging spells at him during ritual's "wind-up". And familiars of those mages, of course.
Which would mean that the first time it was performed by the Overlord, presumably on the brink of defeat. Or that inventor of the ritual was compromised, and Overlord tried to stop him from performing it in suitably dramatic fashion.
P.S. Calling that Eleonore's attempt at suicide would be foiled by Ozymandias after Louise's failure to stop her.
How "the room" is determined by the ritual?
So, I would say that only the operators of the ritual are aware of the it, where "operator" means mage who has initiated ritual and those mages who came in contact with the initiator by virtue of slinging spells at him during ritual's "wind-up". And familiars of those mages, of course.
Which would mean that the first time it was performed by the Overlord, presumably on the brink of defeat. Or that inventor of the ritual was compromised, and Overlord tried to stop him from performing it in suitably dramatic fashion.
P.S. Calling that Eleonore's attempt at suicide would be foiled by Ozymandias after Louise's failure to stop her.
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LoserThree
Finds writing poorly easy
- Location
- Greater Seattle Area
- Pronouns
- he/him
Pretty sure that those in the room will not be aware, for narrative reasons.
The protagonist has ascended a godsdamned cliff of character development in the past couple chapters that would change her relationships with every fucking other character. That's generally not done in the middle of a story like this. (I can't think of any examples where it's done well, but I could be missing things.)
So we should expect that if anyone knows what happened, circumstances will conspire to prevent the protagonist from learning or taking seriously the full scope of her alternate timeline experiences.
EDIT: Also, you should all already know this. You're reading an EarthScorpion story. He means to write well and he pretty much does so. I guess maybe some of you don't know what good writing looks like yet. That's fine. Everybody starts somewhere.
The protagonist has ascended a godsdamned cliff of character development in the past couple chapters that would change her relationships with every fucking other character. That's generally not done in the middle of a story like this. (I can't think of any examples where it's done well, but I could be missing things.)
So we should expect that if anyone knows what happened, circumstances will conspire to prevent the protagonist from learning or taking seriously the full scope of her alternate timeline experiences.
EDIT: Also, you should all already know this. You're reading an EarthScorpion story. He means to write well and he pretty much does so. I guess maybe some of you don't know what good writing looks like yet. That's fine. Everybody starts somewhere.
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- Location
- Nebraska
One of the Rules of Earthscorpion
When things look to be going positive for the main always be ready for the shoe to drop and cause chaos.
When things look to be going positive for the main always be ready for the shoe to drop and cause chaos.
Is it really fair to call it a cliff of character development? Her body converting evil into tsun was only a mental block for her relationships and her current state as a more effective and properly heroic Hero is only a result of the alignment swap. The real cliff of character development for Louise would be moving out of the Delusional Evil alignment.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's way too many shoes, isn't it?
Unless… of course. It all makes sense.
Earthscorpion is actualy an Earthcentipede!
- Location
- Can't read map
This arc will end nice and cheerful, no temporal paradoxes (or too many of them)...
Then Louise stumbles and hits head on ground reverting back to Evil? Don't look at Gnarl innocently singing, that is not club he is holding behind his back....
Or Louise get kidnapped by her Evil counterpart from alternate timeline. Evil twin is being hunted by too many peoples so she escapes into another timeline, taking place of original?
Then Louise stumbles and hits head on ground reverting back to Evil? Don't look at Gnarl innocently singing, that is not club he is holding behind his back....
Or Louise get kidnapped by her Evil counterpart from alternate timeline. Evil twin is being hunted by too many peoples so she escapes into another timeline, taking place of original?
Chojomeka
Behold! QUEEN MONKE!
LoserThree
Finds writing poorly easy
- Location
- Greater Seattle Area
- Pronouns
- he/him
Did you miss the self-awareness? Did you miss the parts where she reexamined her feelings for what's'erface and that one guy and resolved to be more open and honest about those feelings?
And, yes, she grew in power and ability, too.
And cast off evil.
And such and whatnot.
It's like she had a twenty minute bildungsroman (120 minute?). This shit puts satirical presentations of training montages to shame.
Yes, it was a godsdamned cliff.
No, she probably doesn't get to keep it. And yeah, that kind of disappoints me in a way that kind of hurts. But protagonists who get their happy endings handed to them are unlikely to show up in this kind of story except as objects of derision.
lrn2criticallyreadingcomprehension, plz
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Eh, I don't see them being treated as objects of derision. I mean, for all the story mocks Markgraf, he earns his victories, fights constantly, and is generally heroic. You know, while being seven shades of asshole. Basically he's both shown to be the asshole hero AND played straight. So the hero handed his victory would probably have a negative trait highlighted but also be played straight; maybe they have a childlike optimism that's a bit TOO childlike, maybe they have a sense of entitlement a mile wide, maybe they bumble through life.
Something like that, that both mocks them, but doesn't ruin them or make them a lie.
LoserThree
Finds writing poorly easy
- Location
- Greater Seattle Area
- Pronouns
- he/him
That asshole doesn't already have his happy ending.
His motivation, what he wants is unfulfilled because he does not get have a complete legacy. He lacks an heir.
In order for that fucker to have a happy ending, one of two things must happen: either he gets the heir he wants or he accepts the heir(s) he already has. In terms of story the first could be accomplished by, I don't know, maybe discovering that he only sires AFAB progeny because of some mechanic of fate or whatever and punching fate in the face until he gets what he wants. Whatever. The second could be achieved by character growth.
Either way, he'd be earning it. In this kind of story I'm pretty sure that sort of jerk would only have such a happy ending handed it him if it were funny to do so. And I suspect it would only be funny to do so if he the punch line mocked the jerk.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
Eh, I think you're splitting hairs here. He is pretty happy with how his life has gone. It's his daughters' (and son's, because I do think we should treat you as you identify) life he's screwing around with.
LoserThree
Finds writing poorly easy
- Location
- Greater Seattle Area
- Pronouns
- he/him
Eh, I think you're missing the point here.
Dude want's a son on his terms. Dude doesn't have that. Dude doesn't have a happy ended, eared or otherwise.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
I'm pretty sure having an actual son would be a feather in his cap but he's fine with one of his 'sons' doing a Sweet Polly Oliver. Of course if he has a 'real' son he'll toss them aside because he's an asshole. The uncertainly and fear and disruption is on his children, not him.
On the contrary--most good stories have exactly this kind of cliff happen, as a marker to indicate that things have changed, and to ratchet up the tension.
Essentially, there are two different methods to drive a story forward: the story can be driven by the situation, with the characters struggling to make do as best they can as things get progressively worse, or the story can be driven by the characters, with the tension coming mainly from their efforts to fix the problems they run into, and to correct for their own mistakes. Typically, fantasy stories tend to favor the second approach, since it usually tends to mesh better with the reasons why people read fantasy in the first place. The problem is declared--in rough outline--early in the story, and then as the story progresses, details are revealed, and the characters find a way to adapt, to improvise, and to overcome. Character development in such stories is sometimes gradual, but in most cases, it will tend to be cuspal--that is, you'll see a lot of character development at once, and then things will even out as the characters try to re-balance themselves with the new character, while at the same time still addressing the basic problem. Then, if that is not enough, there will be more character development, often by an additional character, which will further change the situation. Particularly long stories, or even series of stories, can have this process repeat itself five, six, or more times before things begin to come together for a solution. When that final solution happens, however, it will not happen because the situation has changed, or, necessarily, because the characters have finally gained the resources and the connections to fix the problem. Rather, it will be solved because the characters themselves have changed--they have grown, matured, and adapted, so that they are no longer the people they once were, and so that they can look at the problem from a different angle, and see how things have changed. If you need an example, you need look no farther than The Hobbit, where Bilbo undergoes two major "cliffs" of character development, which remain with him for the course of the story. Both of these periods of character development are sharp, they are both sudden, and they both provide a dramatic alteration of his character...and they both have a direct, and vast, impact on what happens over the course of the story.
As for Louise, this would mark not the first, but the second, or possibly even the third major character growth. The first came when she first assumed the role of Overlady, when she realized just what had happened to her kingdom, and what was going to happen. This period saw a number of pivotal changes for Louise, including the discovery that she could do magic, that she was not just the Zero, and that ultimately being a hero isn't about showing them all, but simply about doing the right thing, regardless of everybody else's opinion of you. We have been seeing hints of what she was like without the Evil power throughout the story, but it is only when the evil magic is either exhausted, or simply withdrawn, that we can finally see the true Louise, the one that has been hiding beneath the quite understandable mask of anger, rage, and, often, envy. Louise without the magic is different, yes, but both her rage at the Viscount, and Marzipan, both testify to the deep, abiding connection to her family that she still had--even to Eleanor, with whom she did NOT get along when she was a child. Given that it was already heavily implied that her temper was the result of latent Evil in her bloodline, it should come as no surprise that, with the Evil removed, so, too, is the temper.
The shift will not remain--not completely, at least. Louise will have to take up the Gauntlet again, and that will mean that she is infused with Evil energies once more. This will, as we have seen, affect her personality, and likely make it very difficult for her to act on the feelings that she now has no choice but to acknowledge. The primary effect, I would expect, would be on Eleanor, who will finally be able to lance that aching bitterness that has tormented her for so many years, and possibly on Magda, although I rather doubt that.
I can understand why it would be fairly easy to miss these signs. Moreover, I will not be surprised to find out that I am wrong, and that EarthScorpion does have something different planned for character development. But the indications leading up to this have been there throughout the story. This is not a cliff, nor is it a tomato surprise. It is something that was broadcast for at least twenty chapters prior.
As you said...lrn2criticallyreadingcomprehension, plz