So, the main question I have is does the current Louise count as the 'real' Louise, given she seems to have had all her Evil removed? Since that Evil was sort of there from the start, that's technically how she should be... Or I could be completely wrong; it happens.
Let's say you were infected by a terrible virus while in the womb that caused you to be weak and lethargic except when you let yourself be consumed with rage. The virus also enhances your anger so that even minor annoyances could make you lose control of your temper. In that situation would you say that being a temperamental asshole is how you "should be" and what you were really like?

What if someone managed to cure you of that virus and you were suddenly able to enjoy life without being a rageaholic? Would you say that they had taken away your ability to "be how you should be"? Or would you be happy that you could finally be yourself without constantly being influenced by a unnatural virus that made it extremely hard for you to not be a raging asshole for every waking moment of the day?

That's basically the situation Louise is in right now.
 
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Let's say you were infected by a terrible virus while in the womb that caused you to be weak and lethargic except when you let yourself be consumed with rage. The virus also enhances your anger so that even minor annoyances could make you lose control of your temper. In that situation would you say that being a temperamental asshole is how you "should be" and what you were really like?

What if someone managed to cure you of that virus and you were suddenly able to enjoy life without being a rageaholic? Would you say that they had taken away your ability to "be how you should be"? Or would you be happy that you could finally be yourself without constantly being influenced by a unnatural virus that made it extremely hard for you to not be a raging asshole for every waking moment of the day?

That's basically the situation Louise is in right now.

But that assumes that everyone that is Evil is supposed to be good. You could also flip it the other way - say you had a disease that made it so you could never get angry, and was always happy? Should you be upset they made you able to be angry, or happy that you are now yourself?

Since it may be that Louise is no longer under the effect of Evil - or it could be that a chunk of her Soul has been stolen away. We don't know. (Well, I don't know; a few people here should.)
 
Here is a different view on why Louise is so "good" right now: she is overcompensating.

Given she has some really impressive inherited evil tendencies as a De La Valliere and has been exposed to evil magic from the Void, or as one person out it radioactively evil magic en utero, she comes off as a rather balanced individual. One possibility is she has been reflexively tried to be good for so long that when that devil on her shoulder isn't there anymore she comes off as creepily nice. She is trying to auto correct for currently nonexistent evil factors.
 
May a pose I question if you find out that someone has ADHD or Bipolar disorder would you not medicate them to help them even though it would have obvious changes to their personality? I find those who think Good!Louise isn't the true Louise seem to be along the lines that offering to heal a disability takes away from a person's "uniqueness".
 
I'm actually aware of a couple of bipolar people who tried medication and didn't like it. They didn't feel like themselves. On the other hand, a relative and I both have ADHD, and we feel that our medication allows us to be more like ourselves by removing an obstacle to expressing ourselves and accomplishing our goals. Still, I'd like to have some input into chemical alterations to my personality. In either case, denying the patient (or, in the case of minors, the patient's guardians) the opportunity to accept or reject the treatment is somewhat unethical.
 
May a pose I question if you find out that someone has ADHD or Bipolar disorder would you not medicate them to help them even though it would have obvious changes to their personality? I find those who think Good!Louise isn't the true Louise seem to be along the lines that offering to heal a disability takes away from a person's "uniqueness".
As an autistic person, yes. I am who I am, I accept who I am, and though I believe I would be happier in life if I was more normal, if given the choice I would reject it because I would stop being me. Luckily autism isn't really something that can be medicated so it wasn't forced on me.
In my school mandated therapy sessions I made friends with plenty of others students. Some with ADHD and others with assorted depressions (including bipolar), and of those students many detested their medication for the exact same reasons I would reject a "cure" for my autism.
 
So moral of the story is that wanting to keep Good!Louise may just be a monstrously selfish desire?

Gnarl's comments on the state of the capital and the class divides and the nature of Good/good feel like they'd work depressingly well here...

why does overthinking stuff in this fic get so goddamn depressing?
 
So moral of the story is that wanting to keep Good!Louise may just be a monstrously selfish desire?

Gnarl's comments on the state of the capital and the class divides and the nature of Good/good feel like they'd work depressingly well here...

why does overthinking stuff in this fic get so goddamn depressing?

Because you're overthinking things.

In all seriousness, Overlady is a comedy, and part of the nature of comedy is taking all kinds of situations and playing them for laughs. Sometimes, this involves things that would be horrifying/depressing/sensitive if they weren't being presented in a comedic light.

If you strip away the comedic tone of Overlady, then yes, without that filter suddenly a lot of things are going look a lot more depressing.
 
Because you're overthinking things.

In all seriousness, Overlady is a comedy, and part of the nature of comedy is taking all kinds of situations and playing them for laughs. Sometimes, this involves things that would be horrifying/depressing/sensitive if they weren't being presented in a comedic light.

If you strip away the comedic tone of Overlady, then yes, without that filter suddenly a lot of things are going look a lot more depressing.
It's been often said that we laugh at things so we won't cry at them instead.
 
Probably skipped it. I don't pay much attention to non-story posts, especially since this thread is prone to go on tangents that I find uninteresting. Similarly, in the hypothetical case that I just found this story, you can't really expect me to read through more than a hundred pages when Reader Mode is right there asking to be used.
I suggest using the search function next time. When I was reading, that was what I did - searched for all posts by @EarthScorpion in the thread. Thus I had the story pots and the added benefit of all the background info and issues that had already been discussed and @EarthScorpion clarified.


... No... The Gauntlet nurtured her Evil by letting her actually use magic, Evil magic at that. It led to her getting fame, and respect, and companionship she couldn't get no matter how hard she tried when she was being a Good girl. *Maybe* it subtly nudged her the same sort of way it's now hamfistedly bashing at Eleanore's psyche, but that's all it took for her.
Louise could use Evil magic before she gained the Gauntlet - she used it to cleanse the Tower, only then getting the Gauntlet. Even after, she had no problems using her staff to cast magic. It was only later that she came to solely rely on the Gauntlet. And if you think Louise isn't being directly influenced by the Gauntlet, I don't know what you're reading:
The Gauntlet had started whispering to her when she studied magic
Her gauntlet whispered to her, saying words which were right on the edge of comprehension.
She felt… good. Quiet. Peaceful. Like she'd been listening to the background roar of a crowned city for a very long time and for the first time she knew what true silence of the countryside sounded like.
Not to mention the rather recent experiences at Goicang, with constant feelings of warmth from the gauntlet, as well as actual visions and dreams. And that's just what Louise is aware of.


And considering that normal horses don't give a damn if you're Evil or Good I'm pretty sure that particular part is a coincidence. Also, given that she's not actually pure Good now...
This support for my theory that we're also not reading the same story continues to accrue:
The pony retaliated by biting down on her sleeve. She managed to twist her arm out of the way – she was used to the cunning ways of such beasts – but it still managed to lock onto her sleeve. And refused to let go, no matter how much she shouted at it.

So Louise punched it in the face with her armoured fist.

As one, the other ponies turned to face her.

"Nice ponies?" Louise tried.

The beasts disagreed.


Also, it's not 'harder' doing it the Good way. If anything it's not actually possible at all unless she somehow develops the ability to go full Karin and basically just mauls the regency council. Reason why? They control what is and isn't legal. She has no way of proving they've done anything wrong since everything they've done is 'in service to the crown'.

Nevermind that doing it the Evil way is *not* the easy way. First, it's as you said against what she was raised. Second, she has to deal with the potential of her own Mother trying to take her head. Third it's not like it's going to be easy to do *anyway* even without those two complications.
I refer you to the quote in my signature. "There is nothing impossible to him who will try." Louise has learned a lot from her time as the Overlady. As Eleanore thinks in this chapter, a member of the Regency Council possessed an Evil Artifact that allowed her to be possessed by a Dark Angel. Another member of the Regency Council (Wardes) has been sleeping with her, which is reasonable grounds for suspicion. Not only that, but Wardes has clearly committed adultery - sleeping with Marzipan when his fiance was still alive. That's far worse than Henrietta's adultery, which was only on paper and against someone she was not yet betrothed to. Eleanore has been unlawfully imprisoned for six months, by the above-mentioned possessed Regency Council Member. There are ways to fight the Regency Council that don't require violence. Political and legal maneuvering that wound end in them being deposed is not impossible. It's just not as easy as blasting them with a fireball.

Yes, the Evil way isn't 'easy' in general, just easy in comparison to the Good way. That doesn't make it better. It's likely to result in far more collateral damage, far more mortality, and far more potential for moral corruption. These things come with a price tag attached. Until now, Louise did not possess free choice, because she was being subconsciously affected by the Gauntlet. Remember how originally, her goal was just to become proficient in magic and then leave? Somehow, that never happened. After killing Velvet, she then wanted to cleanse the world of 'wrong'. But once she put on the Gauntlet... well, convenient, isn't it, how 'wrong' is her enemies and eradicating them gains her more power, isn't it?

Now, she possesses free choice. She still doesn't recognize 'Evil' as a force on its own - she tried using Evil spells before she succeeded with Lightning. It's just that she's once again completely aware of the difference between right and wrong, and so knows leaving Marzipan out in the snow would be wrong. Louise hasn't has a sudden Heel Face Turn. Rather, the force than has been trying to brainwash her and cloud her moral perception has disappeared. That you find this boring does not invalidate it being meaningful development for Louise's character. It offers her a true choice - to try to forge on without the Evil crutch to support her, or rely on it despite possible awareness of the moral consequences.


This is ES saying that Louise *is* one of the most Evil people to ever walk Halkeginia in raw potential. She doesn't necessarily want to be, but that's who she *is*. The Gauntlet didn't make that the case.
Yes, Louise has immense Evil potential. That means 'currently unrealized ability'. Remind me, how exactly did she actualize this Evil potential until she became Overlady? By occasionally shouting in anger at people who were teasing her? After becoming Overlady, before the Gauntlet, what was the worst she did? Kick the Jester once, and cast Evil magic to kill vampires/skeletons/zombies?
 
But that assumes that everyone that is Evil is supposed to be good. You could also flip it the other way - say you had a disease that made it so you could never get angry, and was always happy? Should you be upset they made you able to be angry, or happy that you are now yourself?

Since it may be that Louise is no longer under the effect of Evil - or it could be that a chunk of her Soul has been stolen away. We don't know. (Well, I don't know; a few people here should.)
No it doesn't, stop putting words in my mouth. I assumed that Louise in her natural state is good because we have seen that she is. And my argument does not give a single fuck what the natural state is anyway. Even if the real Louise was a complete asshole the Gauntlet and Void would still be a mental affliction that made her far more so than she would otherwise be like a schoolyard bully being turned into a raging berserker by PCP.

Your attempted reversal is also hilarious. Yes if I was brainwashed into being happy all the time I would want to be cured because being happy all the time is not good for me and doesn't let me be a real person. I would not want to be happy that my mom died for example.

Or in Overlady terms turning someone Good by brainwashing them isn't really making them Good at all. Its just making a puppet that acts the way you want it to act. If they don't choose to be Good on their own then it has no meaning.

Now maybe you're going to point at what happened to Louise there but Louise was not brainwashed to become Good, instead she had her inner goodness constantly suppressed by the Void and later by the Gauntlet. For the first time in her life she actually has a real choice in whether she wants to be good or evil and I for one hope she chooses to stay good and that she finds a way to make that work.

And no her soul has not been stolen stop being ridiculous. She's Frodo after the One Ring was destroyed, a horrible addicting influence on her mind has been removed and she's back to being a kindly hobbit instead of a junked out addict lashing out against his friends if they try to take his "precious" away.
 
And no her soul has not been stolen stop being ridiculous. She's Frodo after the One Ring was destroyed, a horrible addicting influence on her mind has been removed and she's back to being a kindly hobbit instead of a junked out addict lashing out against his friends if they try to take his "precious" away.
I wouldn't say she's back to being kindly, as far as i know, this is literally the first time in her entire life she has had free will and only now is she having a personality that is not being influenced by anything, she never had a chance to be kindly before until now, hell, her friends and family didn't even know about the Void influencing her and only know her from that state.

In fact, it's likely that some people will think that she is being influenced or brainwashed NOW because she is different to how she has always been in her entire life, still, i agree with you that i want Louise to continue having free choice, the idea that Louise is only a tsundere because of the Void is an interesting one and it's something i would like to see being explored.

Oh, and i really want Louise to meet Karin and Kirche as she is riding with her unicorn, mostly, i want to see Kirche trying to mock her again and wanting their old rivalry back as Louise is being nice to her freaking Kirche and her group out.
 
ike she'd been listening to the background roar of a crowned city for a very long time and for the first time she knew what true silence of the countryside sounded like.
of a crowded city for
"But she's on a unicorn. Everyone know they hate evil" and "But aren't we…" and "Shh, shh!".
hate evil." and
Interesting that Louise is a Square-class lightning mage on raw power when she's not Void suppressed. Wouldn't lightning spells need experience casting to cast, too? Although she's arguably got that from Overlady spells already, I guess.
 
of a crowded city for

hate evil." and
Interesting that Louise is a Square-class lightning mage on raw power when she's not Void suppressed. Wouldn't lightning spells need experience casting to cast, too? Although she's arguably got that from Overlady spells already, I guess.
She has probably gotten the experience needed through frequent…
:cool:
…air spellasting.
 
Yes, I rather suspect that with all the "tsun counts as Evil to most effects that look for it" jokes, ES has been setting this up for literally years and has been eagerly awaiting the chance to be show off how the only reason that Overlady!Louise is "just" a temperamental tsundere when burdened with (a quarter of) all the world's Evil is because without it she's apparently even more naturally Nice than Cattleya.

I suspect the reason why Eleanore is so mean is because she inherited all of the natural spite that was meant to go to her sisters. :V


I wouldn't say she's back to being kindly, as far as i know, this is literally the first time in her entire life she has had free will and only now is she having a personality that is not being influenced by anything, she never had a chance to be kindly before until now, hell, her friends and family didn't even know about the Void influencing her and only know her from that state.

In fact, it's likely that some people will think that she is being influenced or brainwashed NOW because she is different to how she has always been in her entire life, still, i agree with you that i want Louise to continue having free choice, the idea that Louise is only a tsundere because of the Void is an interesting one and it's something i would like to see being explored.

Oh, and i really want Louise to meet Karin and Kirche as she is riding with her unicorn, mostly, i want to see Kirche trying to mock her again and wanting their old rivalry back as Louise is being nice to her freaking Kirche and her group out.

Louise's personality was certainly influenced her status as the heir of the Void. Yes, her personality has undergone a shift now that she's no longer under its influence. But saying "this is the first time in her life she's had free will"? No. That's a load of steaming bullshit.
 
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I think that saying Louise didn't have free will before is a bit off base. Certainly, her temperament was being influenced by the Gauntlet and/or the Void, but it's also now apparent by contrast with Eleanor that she's been doing her best to resist her Evil impulses through sheer stubbornness. That tells us at least as much about what kind of person Louise is as how her behavior has changed without those influences. I also think that calling Louise with or without the Void the true Louise kind of misses the point. Good or Evil, with or without the Gauntlet, it's still Louise. The salient point here is that up until now, her personality was subtly shaped by Evil forces in ways she wasn't even aware of. It's a sobering thought, that who you are as a person can be altered and you might not know it. But this does give Louise the chance to make an informed choice about who she wants to be. She couldn't have done that as long as she was still blind to how she was being affected by Evil forces. It's only now that the Void and the Gauntlet are gone that Louise has any basis for comparison. This is why I'm so happy with this development and why I'm excited to see how things play out.
 
If only canon Louise had an excuse like "I have been subjected to the subtle influence of Evil magic working to shape my thinking and behavior since I was in the womb." :whistle:
 
But she has an even better excuse! She has to put up with Saito.
What was supposed to be point of summoning ritual? Summoning creature most appropriate to summoner or something?

Beside being fashion accessory, since other mages familiars don't seem to have much use or screen time, with some exceptions? I don't remember them significant in cannon or much use of special abilities they provide, like here Elanoire seeing through her familiar's eyes. Was it that having familiar is main mark of mage? Though main mark should totaly be focus item, as mage can use magic without familiar, but not without wand, staff or special enchanted sword?
 
Beside being fashion accessory, since other mages familiars don't seem to have much use or screen time, with some exceptions? I don't remember them significant in cannon or much use of special abilities they provide, like here Elanoire seeing through her familiar's eyes.

Nope, that's an entirely canon ability for mages. It just works differently for Louise and Saito - he can see through her eyes when she's in danger (happens in the Albion stuff).

As I said before, I know a good amount more ZnT canon than basically any other writers around, which means things like this just show up in passing.
 
Nope, that's an entirely canon ability for mages. It just works differently for Louise and Saito - he can see through her eyes when she's in danger (happens in the Albion stuff).

As I said before, I know a good amount more ZnT canon than basically any other writers around, which means things like this just show up in passing.
So I am incorrect in assuming that the only time the familiar bond breaks when one of the 2 parties die?
 
Louise could use Evil magic before she gained the Gauntlet - she used it to cleanse the Tower, only then getting the Gauntlet. Even after, she had no problems using her staff to cast magic. It was only later that she came to solely rely on the Gauntlet. And if you think Louise isn't being directly influenced by the Gauntlet, I don't know what you're reading:

Not to mention the rather recent experiences at Goicang, with constant feelings of warmth from the gauntlet, as well as actual visions and dreams. And that's just what Louise is aware of.
And not only have you failed reading comprehension (I said it could have done it subtly but definitely not like what it's doing to Eleanore) that last bit is more it supplying warning than anything *else* anyway. So... cheers for that.
This support for my theory that we're also not reading the same story continues to accrue:
Oh yes. A wild pony that poked her first and only even tried to bite her once she swung her hand in it's direction clearly cared that she had evil in her. And the herd of them that only turned aggressive once she punched the first one is clearly more support of the same.
I refer you to the quote in my signature. "There is nothing impossible to him who will try." Louise has learned a lot from her time as the Overlady. As Eleanore thinks in this chapter, a member of the Regency Council possessed an Evil Artifact that allowed her to be possessed by a Dark Angel. Another member of the Regency Council (Wardes) has been sleeping with her, which is reasonable grounds for suspicion. Not only that, but Wardes has clearly committed adultery - sleeping with Marzipan when his fiance was still alive. That's far worse than Henrietta's adultery, which was only on paper and against someone she was not yet betrothed to. Eleanore has been unlawfully imprisoned for six months, by the above-mentioned possessed Regency Council Member. There are ways to fight the Regency Council that don't require violence. Political and legal maneuvering that wound end in them being deposed is not impossible. It's just not as easy as blasting them with a fireball.

Yes, the Evil way isn't 'easy' in general, just easy in comparison to the Good way. That doesn't make it better. It's likely to result in far more collateral damage, far more mortality, and far more potential for moral corruption. These things come with a price tag attached. Until now, Louise did not possess free choice, because she was being subconsciously affected by the Gauntlet. Remember how originally, her goal was just to become proficient in magic and then leave? Somehow, that never happened. After killing Velvet, she then wanted to cleanse the world of 'wrong'. But once she put on the Gauntlet... well, convenient, isn't it, how 'wrong' is her enemies and eradicating them gains her more power, isn't it?

Now, she possesses free choice. She still doesn't recognize 'Evil' as a force on its own - she tried using Evil spells before she succeeded with Lightning. It's just that she's once again completely aware of the difference between right and wrong, and so knows leaving Marzipan out in the snow would be wrong. Louise hasn't has a sudden Heel Face Turn. Rather, the force than has been trying to brainwash her and cloud her moral perception has disappeared. That you find this boring does not invalidate it being meaningful development for Louise's character. It offers her a true choice - to try to forge on without the Evil crutch to support her, or rely on it despite possible awareness of the moral consequences.
As far as legality is concerned, Louise was dead. He didn't know she was alive. And you're assuming that any of the peasentry or apparently equally stupid nobility would care that Wardes was banging Marzipan. Judging by typical Overlord characters... they were probably already aware and congratulating him. And it really kinda is impossible when the reason anyone is on the regency council is they're the smart ones you'd need to be siding with *you* to take them on. Much less when you're a little girl who flunked out of the academy because she couldn't do magic. What's this? You're now a square-ranked wind mage? Clearly you performed deals with demons and devils to gain magical ability. Time to get you executed!

See, you can twist it however you bloody well want, you're clearly going to anyway, but it doesn't really change much. See, one of the things about Evil. It may be a physical force. And it may be corrupting. But it never takes away your ability to choose, your Free Will. Even with Eleanore, as utterly hamfisted as it's being, all it can do is try to convince her to do what it wants. So sorry luv, but not only did Louise choose what she was doing, admittedly under much much self-delusion, that's all on her. And you can say it's "convenient" that she has to gain more power to bring down the council using her current plan... And that's different from the political games you're suggesting how? I'm sorry, when did political maneuvering, a game where you have to be a lying prick to get pretty much anywhere, become less about who has more Power?

Plus, and I'm really really sorry to point this out, her deciding she was going to do it this way was so far from out of character it's adorable you think the Gauntlet *had* to do anything, even if it could have. She was deluding herself long before it showed up. Or did you think she was telling the truth to herself when she said she was going to just learn some magic and that was all, really?

She tried using Evil spells once she lost the Gauntlet because she doesn't know any other spells (that work for her normally). THAT isn't anything anyone's trying to use as proof she's still quite Evil under all that sunshine and gumdrops.

It's also worth pointing out she's not so much worried about Marzipan being in the snow, because quite frankly no one is home and I'm not completely sure there's a body there anyway... (nor do I remember her picking one up and dragging it with her...) but the fact that she doesn't want Marzipan to be trapped eternally because she was a collosal moron. Which is actually pretty uncharacteristic of Louise even as she is now, she does afterall still hold a pretty significant grudge against Wardes... But then again, she probably just wants to save her so she can throw Marzipan into the deepest darkest dungeon she can find. That's not Good or Evil, that's Personal.
Yes, Louise has immense Evil potential. That means 'currently unrealized ability'. Remind me, how exactly did she actualize this Evil potential until she became Overlady? By occasionally shouting in anger at people who were teasing her? After becoming Overlady, before the Gauntlet, what was the worst she did? Kick the Jester once, and cast Evil magic to kill vampires/skeletons/zombies?
Oh I'm sorry that she didn't not have it long enough for you to be proven wrong. Oh so sorry.
 
Indeed, Louise and Saito are perfectly suited. They are both horrible people who, although not actually villainous, should never be inflicted on someone else.
Eh, i dunno, Louise is only terrible to Saito, something which she admits later on, and even says he is better off with Tiffania, and it's literally just Saito, she had feelings for Wardes and maybe Julio too and she didn't act like a tsundere to them.

Apart from her behavior without Saito around?

She isn't shown to be that bad, hell, she even gives up on being a noble to save Tabitha and she tries to kill herself in the light novels because she thinks that her death will save Saito, heck, she tends to be calmer and nicer without Saito around, it's like Saito being around her just makes her more mean and evil, like Louise is under some spell that forces her to become worse when she sees or knows Saito is near her.

And again, in the light novels, there are some periods of time where the two are far away from each other and Louise's attitude is very different, i think even Siesta makes a comment about Louise being more likeable and calmer(Siesta starts insulting Louise more and more to her face even pratically calling her a useless girl and that Brimir probably only gave her Void Magic because otherwise she would just be pitiful and Louise doesn't strike back or talk back, she just takes the insults) when Saito isn't around.
So I am incorrect in assuming that the only time the familiar bond breaks when one of the 2 parties die?
Yes, in the light novels, both Saito and Louise die at different points and are ressurected with the familiar bond broken, though in Louise's case, her dying means the Void Magic just went somewhere else and without the Void in her so it became impossible for her to have a human familiar.
 
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