I really don't understand people here. Canon, the author and his beta all say that Void Magic (and the attendant powers thereof) can be transferred between those of related blood
On one hand it is question how much peoples know canon FoZ. I for example know know just anime, haven't read novels, so no idea of last chapters revelations. So most peoples likely don't know this is easily possible in canon.

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On another hand, transfer looks like it happened too easily. Not like Elanoire tied Louise with chains, threw into magical circle and casted complex spell to steal ability. Or killed her with evil magical artefact that was used to steal power or something else more involved then minor fight with fists like when they were kids?

Like Balogi when she stole Athes power. Transfer definitely was not instant and easy. I guess that might be explained as there was much, much, much more Evil power that needed to be absorbed so slower transfer? :???:

Void power seem too much entrenched into Louise to be so easily removed?
 
I really don't understand people here. Canon, the author and his beta all say that Void Magic (and the attendant powers thereof) can be transferred between those of related blood - I wrote a whole post on how that was what Louis was breeding for, how all Void powers we've seen so far run in the rulers/familial lines Brimir set up over Halkeginia. We see Ozymandias becoming stronger once Eleanore seizes the gauntlet - gaining the Gandalfr powers, presumably, especially given he tries to show Eleanore something on his left hand. Why is it so hard for people to accept that Eleanore seizing the Gauntlet makes her Tristain's Void Mage, and thus frees Louise from the burden? Why is it so hard to accept that Eleanore and Louise were candidates for the power of the Void, that Louise was the one who succumbed to it and gained the ability to use it through the Gauntlet, and that without the Gauntlet, the power then reverts to the wielder of the Gauntlet who is also a candidate?
At a guess? Because it's Familiar of Zero canon, and thus new to many of the readers (including me), so it seems like it came out of left field even though strictly speaking it didn't.
 
At a guess? Because it's Familiar of Zero canon, and thus new to many of the readers (including me), so it seems like it came out of left field even though strictly speaking it didn't.

It is rather amusing - to me, at least - that a comedy pastiche like this which superficially is only using some of the names actually has quite a few elements that dive into the deep lore and the other things that most ZnT fanfics never ever get to. Thus most readers don't even know about some of the things I'm using or working with because most ZnT fics die before Albion and a lot of fic writers are only building things off other fics (which also never got that far).
 
I'm actually not sure the Void went with the Gauntlet. I mean, okay, obviously it went with the Gauntlet, but I'm not sure it's, you know, attached.

I mean, for the purposes of clarification, we basically have two separate titles on Louise's shoulders here:
  • The Void-mage master of the Gandalfr. This is the magic that lets Louise cast things like Dispel on Montespan's wards, gives her enormous natural talent at Evil magic, and suppresses her natural Wind affinity. It's why she's been the Zero her whole life (and she deals with the Evil by converting it to tsun).
  • The Overlady. This is what makes her eyes glow, connects her to the Tower Heart and comes with a loyal horde of Minions.
This much is unarguable. It is possible to be an Overlord and not be a Void mage, because the vampire before her was. And it is possible to be a Void mage and not be an Overlady, because Tiffania is. The Gauntlet and the connection to the Tower Heart, make Louise the Overlady. The mantle of the Void is one she's had since birth. Now, certainly both of these titles are intimately connected to a) Evil and b) Brimir, who was probably both the first Void mage and the first Overlord. So it may be that the two have fused from contact and that the Void transferred as a result of the Gauntlet changing hands.

However, it is also plausible that there were several candidates for the mantle of the Gandalfr-Void, and that the life-and-death all-out battle for supremacy between two valid candidates was a valid way to transfer it - sort of like the Elder Wand. In which case the fact that the Gauntlet also changed hands would not be directly connected to the Void abandoning Louise for a worthier host. Eleanore happened to use it and claim the title of Overlady by doing so, yes, and the Evil magic it was soaked in or the connection to Brimir may even have helped the Void's decision to jump ship. But under this hypothesis, her use of the Gauntlet was merely an acceptance of the mantle of the Void - and it would have happened even if she hadn't taken the Gauntlet had she beaten Louise and accepted the mantle of the Void some other way.
 
I really don't understand people here.
Oh, you don't understand something so simple and obvious? What "people here" were objecting to wasn't the now undeniable fact that Void can hop around people, they were objecting to it supposedly being obvious. Because it wasn't.

I myself was still on the verge with the whole Evil = Void thing. This fact is played with, but to my knowledge the subject is never directly touched upon. In fact, the word "Void" never comes up in the whole story in any meaningful way, and the doubt would have still remained had Aleph not cleared it up. Although, if I want to get picky, Evil = Void is still false, because while Void is apparently Evil, Evil is not necessarily Void (as evidenced by everything else that is Evil and not Void).

Similarly, I had the idea the whole Good and Evil things were more like political alignments, and that Evil alignment was not necessarily related to Louise's Evil magic. We find out only now that apparently Evil is a very concrete object you can touch, and taste, and play ball with if you wish so. And maybe even feed to babies. And it still wouldn't have been clear if not for Aleph.

Sure, there are inconsistencies that beget questioning on part of the reader, but the conclusions of "Void is Evil" and "Evil is transferrable" are not exactly the first things that come to mind. Louise lost the gauntlet and is now a wind mage? For those of us not up to date with the latest LNs the cause could have been literally anything, and the Unicorn is a prime suspect by virtue of being a new factor in Louise's life, which just happens to be at the same time she cast her first succesful non-Evil spell. Simultaneity is not really indicative of causality, but it's one of the first leaps the reader's mind is likely to make.

As a side note, something that doesn't really make sense to me is why on Earth would the Void, in all of its Evilness, choose to posses the naturedly good-hearted Louise when the standard measure for meaness was available right there, probably in the next room.

It wouldn't be the first time I miss something painfully obvious, so it could be my fault. Alternatively, it could be the author unwittingly being too clever for his own good (our own good?). Or it's neither, and all this confusion is "all going as planned." Who knows?

And while I was writting this Aleph basically said that hers are not the Words of an Archangel. I think. So I really don't know how much was confirmed and what is still unclear.
 
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As a side note, something that doesn't really make sense to me is why on Earth would the Void, in all of its Evilness, choose to posses the naturedly good-hearted Louise when the standard measure for meaness was available right there, probably in the next room.

Yeah, I don't get this either. Especially considering how 'kinda-sorta' evil Louise actually was being (and was actually using the power for some lower-case good in terms of saving Henrietta and such), and how easy it was for Eleanore to be corrupted and actually 'fall'.

Maybe the 'concept' of the Void doesn't have an inherent 'sense' about such things that other EVIL sources do, but that still makes the whole thing feel a bit weird.
 
Yeah, I don't get this either. Especially considering how 'kinda-sorta' evil Louise actually was being (and was actually using the power for some lower-case good in terms of saving Henrietta and such), and how easy it was for Eleanore to be corrupted and actually 'fall'.

Maybe the 'concept' of the Void doesn't have an inherent 'sense' about such things that other EVIL sources do, but that still makes the whole thing feel a bit weird.
I'm pretty sure it cares more about the potential for great Evil, than the starting point. Oh sure, Eleanore is lightyears more mean about it, but that doesn't make her more properly Evil.
 
Well, it's also that Louise is really good at Evil. Uh, bad at Evil. Talented at Evil. She's got buckets of willpower and determination, ridiculous magical skill, a fierce temper (even with Niceness +500, she's still holding a grudge against Wardes), the scheming and planning instincts of an old-school de la Valliere - it specifically calls out that those instincts are still there, just suppressed by her sudden surge of Niceness. Hell, I'd even bet she's currently riding a Niceness high from losing the Void and will settle back to slightly less Nice (though still Nicer than Catt, probably) once she's had time to adjust.

Basically, Louise as a candidate was a very nice girl who rolled natural 20s for both Heroism and Villainy. The addition of the Void mantle cancelled out the Niceness and basically left her roughly in the middle on average, except it's more like wild swings to either side - which concidentally matches the definition of a tsundere. As an end result, that's a person who could go either way and would be brilliant whichever side of the divide she fell on - and that means it's a pretty attractive prospect to the Void compared to the less-talented Eleanore (who at the time Louise was born hadn't yet screwed up and gotten Catt Turned, so she wasn't even all that Mean).
 
It was also mentioned Louise was better at magic than Elanor. If we only look at who would make a better Void Mage Louise wins, maybe why she got it in the first place. Elanor is mentioned to be a better candidate for rule, which was apparently a secondary criteria.

Aleph may have a point on potential, Louise is slated for great things. We never said it it was going to be good or evil, just that is it likely to be big/ important.
 
As a side note, something that doesn't really make sense to me is why on Earth would the Void, in all of its Evilness, choose to posses the naturedly good-hearted Louise when the standard measure for meaness was available right there, probably in the next room.

It wouldn't be the first time I miss something painfully obvious, so it could be my fault. Alternatively, it could be the author unwittingly being too clever for his own good (our own good?). Or it's neither, and all this confusion is "all going as planned." Who knows?

And while I was writting this Aleph basically said that hers are not the Words of an Archangel. I think. So I really don't know how much was confirmed and what is still unclear.


We were actually specifically told, though it was a long time ago. It had to do with how Karin and the Duke bound Louis with a shard of the Tower Heart, and how close proximity to artifacts like that can taint newborns and force them to develop a talent for evil magic and an inability to use normal magic. Louise found out about that during that episode. So it wasn't just the old blood, it was also that she was literally infected with evil radiation at birth, while her sisters weren't.
 
Similarly, I had the idea the whole Good and Evil things were more like political alignments, and that Evil alignment was not necessarily related to Louise's Evil magic. We find out only now that apparently Evil is a very concrete object you can touch, and taste, and play ball with if you wish so. And maybe even feed to babies. And it still wouldn't have been clear if not for Aleph.
EarthScorpion and Aleph have said repeatedly in this thread, whenever confusion over Evil and (small "e") evil comes up with some regularity, that (capital) Good and Evil are actual physical forces that are quantifiable in this universe. I'm surprised you hadn't come across one of those posts previously.
 
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Does this mean that mirrorverse Louise is a goody two shoes who was never evil, so basically Karin 2.0, except so blooming nice she'll apologise to the skeletons the whole time she's disassembling them to get at the necromancer controlling them?

EDIT: And when she trips and stumbles and hits her head and get convinced by one of the villains she was always evil, she ends up running the evil conspiracy before the end of the day and the other baddies have to team up with the heroes to get her memory back?
 
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Does this mean that mirrorverse Louise is a goody two shoes who was never evil, so basically Karin 2.0, except so blooming nice she'll apologise to the skeletons the whole time she's disassembling them to get at the necromancer controlling them?

EDIT: And when she trips and stumbles and hits her head and get convinced by one of the villains she was always evil, she ends up running the evil conspiracy before the end of the day and the other baddies have to team up with the heroes to get her memory back?
I'm pretty sure she'd just be very much Mommy's Little Girl (Well, if her mommy was from the normal universe, since mirrorverse Karin would be a ruthless evil badass).
 
I'd picture mirrorverse Louise being extremely sheltered and kept unaware of her power while being doted on by her evil and extremely ruthless parents, prehaps surrounded by comically dangerous animals and monsters who would be a deadly threat to anyone else but are doted on by her.
 
I'd picture mirrorverse Louise being extremely sheltered and kept unaware of her power while being doted on by her evil and extremely ruthless parents, prehaps surrounded by comically dangerous animals and monsters who would be a deadly threat to anyone else but are doted on by her.
That's pretty much Cat, minus the evil parents and plus a chronic disease.
 
EarthScorpion and Aleph have said repeatedly in this thread, whenever confusion over Evil and (small "e") evil comes up with some regularity, that (capital) Good and Evil are actual physical forces that are quantifiable in this universe. I'm surprised you hadn't come across one of those posts previously.
Probably skipped it. I don't pay much attention to non-story posts, especially since this thread is prone to go on tangents that I find uninteresting. Similarly, in the hypothetical case that I just found this story, you can't really expect me to read through more than a hundred pages when Reader Mode is right there asking to be used.
 
This isn't character development from where she was. This is character re-write. She didn't develop into this, it was literally forced to happen.
I really don't understand that. We're told that Louise struggled for all her life against her Evil nature, due to Good nurture:
... really, the de la Valliere girls are a triumph of Nurture over Nature
[Centurion] is, after all, where Louise gets her "look, girl, your heritage is telling you that you're born to be an evil queen and let's face it, it's what you're good at" genes from.
But she certainly has a strong inherited tendency towards Evil, yes.
For 16 years, despite Eleanore being incredibly mean to her, her relationship with her mother being not ideal (to say the least), being harshly bullied at school, having no positive relationships besides Henrietta/Cattleya, Louise fought off Evil. The most she ever did was get angry at people. And then she put on the Gauntlet, and it changed. And the Gauntlet seduced her, and she allowed herself to be convinced that what she was doing was not Evil, it was alright because she was fighting Evil, it was for the Greater Good.
Despite this, she still was (as people called it) 'barely Evil'. Yes, she was going through all the motions, but on the Evil spectrum, she was still Delusional Evil. She still thought she was doing Good, and frankly she did a great deal of good, as well as some actual Good.
And then the Gauntlet, the insidious influence that turned her to this path was taken off, and she no longer had a veil on her mind. She could think clearly. And you're surprised she went back to being Good? Louise was always good, and was also strongly influenced by Good. With self-assurance, knowledge of her power (she just discovered she's a Square-classs Wind Mage), assurance of her Good (the Unicorn) nature, you're surprised she went back to what she always was?
This was no more forced to happen than Louise's descent into Evil was forced to happen. Just as Louise's progression into Evil was realistic, in character and excellent character development because the fundamental part of it was that she was still good and still thought she could be Good, so her ascent into Good is realistic, in character and excellent character development because the fundamental part of it was that she is still good and discovers she can again be Good.

And sure, maybe Louise doesn't need the gauntlet, but that's completely besides the point even you were making here. The Gauntlet didn't make her like that. And even if she doesn't need it, guess who can't be allowed to keep it? And guess, in turn, how much more doable it is to finish off the extensively corrupt council with what the gauntlet provides? She needs an Army, the Gauntlet gives her one.
I think you completely missed my point. The Gauntlet did make her Evil. It's explicitly stated in the text. Admittedly, it didn't cause an abrupt volte-face as it did for Eleanore, but it basically is what made her descend into Evil, even if only very slowly. Proof positive - before the Gauntlet, she got along excellently with her horse, after it, all equines attacked her, after it's removed, a Unicorn helps her. The only reason Louise 'slowly accepted her heritage' is because the Gauntlet pushed her into doing so.
Obviously the Gauntlet needs to be removed from Eleanore. But Louise has just discovered she's a Square-Class Wind Mage, and that her alignment is clearly Good. She can actually make a meaningful choice now between her nature and nurture - to go about it the Good way, which would be harder, without the Gauntlet, without the Evil Magic, or the Evil way, which would be easier, but against all she was taught. I find that much more powerful, and with much more potential for character development.

But under this hypothesis, her use of the Gauntlet was merely an acceptance of the mantle of the Void - and it would have happened even if she hadn't taken the Gauntlet had she beaten Louise and accepted the mantle of the Void some other way.
I really liked what you say here @Aleph, but I think the former theory is sounder than the latter. What other way would there have been to accept the mantle of the Void? I'd like to think that that's one of the most powerful and unique powers of the Gauntlet - that if you have the potential to be a Void Mage, it also makes you a Void Mage, in addition to Overlord. That it was part of Brimir's plan, perhaps, to make sure his legacy of Evil would be passed on, so that even were such a thing like a Good Void Mage possible, The Gauntlet could either turn him Evil or find a new master more suited to the mantle.

I myself was still on the verge with the whole Evil = Void thing.
If I may source:
Also, it helps that her [Louise's] magic, you know, is sort of made out of pure Evil
Now, admittedly, @EarthScorpion was cagy about this for a while, as we can see here:
Is she a Void mage and reality just reads Tsundere as Evil? Is she an Evil mage? Is Void Evil? Is she a Void mage and an Evil mage as well? Well, some of the precise implementation details might be argued over.
But since we now see Louise does have Wind Magic when her alignment is good, I think it's safe to say Void magic=Evil Magic.

Similarly, I had the idea the whole Good and Evil things were more like political alignments, and that Evil alignment was not necessarily related to Louise's Evil magic. We find out only now that apparently Evil is a very concrete object you can touch, and taste, and play ball with if you wish so. And maybe even feed to babies. And it still wouldn't have been clear if not for Aleph.
Already answered above, but allow me to source:
human-scale good and evil which is messy and subjective doesn't line up with Good and Evil exactly
Yeah, denying the existence of Good and Evil in Overlady is approximately as stupid as denying the existence of fire and water. And only slightly harder to contradict. The only people who make that kind of argument are people who haven't encountered real Evil before, or sometimes people who are secretly Evil and want to tempt people by going "There's really no such thing as Good and Evil".


As a side note, something that doesn't really make sense to me is why on Earth would the Void, in all of its Evilness, choose to posses the naturedly good-hearted Louise when the standard measure for meaness was available right there, probably in the next room.
Also answered above, Louise had higher potential, Eleanore wasn't as mean as she is now, allow me to source:
Louise wants to be something she's not.

Not one of the most Evil people to ever walk Halkeginia in raw potential.
(emphasis mine)
 
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I really don't understand that. We're told that Louise struggled for all her life against her Evil nature, due to Good nurture:
... Yep you've missed what I'm saying. Missed it entirely.
For 16 years, despite being Eleanore being incredibly mean to her, her relationship with her mother being not ideal, being harshly bullied at school, having no positive relationships besides Henrietta/Cattleya, Louise fought off Evil. The most she ever did was get angry at people. And then she put on the Gauntlet, and it changed. And the Gauntlet seduced her, and she allowed herself to be convinced that what she was doing was not Evil, it was alright because she was fighting Evil, it was for the Greater Good.

Despite this, she still was (as people called it) 'barely Evil'. Yes, she was going through all the motions, but on the Evil spectrum, she was still Delusional Evil. She still thought she was doing Good, and frankly she did a great deal of good, as well as some actual Good.

And then the Gauntlet, the insidious influence that turned her to this path was taken off, and she no longer had a veil on her mind. She could think clearly. And you're surprised she went back to being Good? Louise was always good, and was also strongly influenced by Good. With self-assurance, knowledge of her power (she just discovered she's a Square-classs Wind Mage), assurance of her Good (the Unicorn) nature, you're surprised she went back to what she always was?

This was no more forced to happen than Louise's descent into Evil was forced to happen. Just as Louise's progression into Evil was realistic, in character and excellent character development because the fundamental part of it was that she was still good and still thought she could be Good, so her ascent into Good is realistic, in character and excellent character development because the fundamental part of it was that she is still good and discovers she can again be Good.
Because she went from point A (Burgeongoningly becoming full on Evil) to point B (Full on Good) with literally nothing in between.

This isn't, she decided to give up the power and be Good, and redeemed herself or anything like that. The Gauntlet was removed, by force (and we have reason to think that's a relevant detail), and poof. Literally years upon years of Evil worming into her brain is basically gone. Oh sure, it's still *there*, and she's still a vindictive little poppet, but this isn't character development. This is a Heel-Face turn enforced by Deus Ex Machina.
I think you completely missed my point. The Gauntlet did make her Evil. It's explicitly stated in the text. Admittedly, it didn't cause an abrupt volte-face as it did for Eleanore, but it basically is what made her descend into Evil, even if only very slowly. Proof positive - before the Gauntlet, she got along excellently with her horse, after it, all equines attacked her, after it's removed, a Unicorn helps her. The only reason Louise 'slowly accepted her heritage' is because the Gauntlet pushed her into doing so.

Obviously the Gauntlet needs to be removed from Eleanore. But Louise has just discovered she's a Square-Class Wind Mage, and that her alignment is clearly Good. She can actually make a meaningful choice now between her nature and nurture - to go about it the Good way, which would be harder, without the Gauntlet, without the Evil Magic, or the Evil way, which would be easier, but against all she was taught. I find that much more powerful, and with much more potential for character development.
... No... The Gauntlet nurtured her Evil by letting her actually use magic, Evil magic at that. It led to her getting fame, and respect, and companionship she couldn't get no matter how hard she tried when she was being a Good girl. *Maybe* it subtly nudged her the same sort of way it's now hamfistedly bashing at Eleanore's psyche, but that's all it took for her.

And considering that normal horses don't give a damn if you're Evil or Good I'm pretty sure that particular part is a coincidence. Also, given that she's not actually pure Good now...

Also, it's not 'harder' doing it the Good way. If anything it's not actually possible at all unless she somehow develops the ability to go full Karin and basically just mauls the regency council. Reason why? They control what is and isn't legal. She has no way of proving they've done anything wrong since everything they've done is 'in service to the crown'.

Nevermind that doing it the Evil way is *not* the easy way. First, it's as you said against what she was raised. Second, she has to deal with the potential of her own Mother trying to take her head. Third it's not like it's going to be easy to do *anyway* even without those two complications.

And again, that's god damn *boring*. "Oh I'm so evil, oh wait... no I'm a Good person now!" Not only are there no god damn consequences to it, it completely invalidates everything she's already done.

Edit: Also, learn how to use the damn enter key. Having no space between paragraphs makes it basically a wall of text.
 
All I can say is that these last two chapters worked great for me. There have been hints about Void being Evil since the very first chapter, and it was amazing to finally get to see the payoff. Not to mention how it was all but stated that the Gauntlet was sapient, and strongly implied to be connected to Brimir. I was certain it was foreshadowing when I first read it, and I was pretty sure the Gauntlet would cause problems for Louise at some point, but I still didn't expect it to play out like this at all. I felt it was very well done.

Though I was even more surprised to see how drastically Louise's personality has been warped by the Void all along. I didn't see it coming at all, but it makes perfect sense with everything we've seen of how Evil can change people. Take Cattleya, for example. Being turned into a vampire clearly had a profound effect on her personality, which, in retrospect, makes her a perfect narrative foil to Louise. This puts everything we've seen about Louise throughout the entire story in an entirely different context, which is the best kind of plot twist. I'm going to have to do a reread from the beginning to look at how Louise has been written and how she interacts with Evil. It completely changes how I think of Louise, and I'm really eager to see where @EarthScorpion is going to take her character from here.
 
So, the main question I have is does the current Louise count as the 'real' Louise, given she seems to have had all her Evil removed? Since that Evil was sort of there from the start, that's technically how she should be... Or I could be completely wrong; it happens.
 
@Meneldur just wanted to say I'm not going to engage with you because a) I can't figure out how to do so without a severe case of spaghetti and b) just seeing the loops and twists you go through to justify your own position makes my head hurt.

Besides, you're missing the point. I never engaged with you in a right-or-wrong debate, I only said that the "right" conclusions are not obvious. And if you have to quote non-story posts from three years back to prove your point... you're actually proving mine.
 
Thanks to @Kintty for making me go back and read some of what you addressed to her because it actually helps *my* position. Thanks luv.
Meneldur Quoted ES saying said:
Louise wants to be something she's not.

Not one of the most Evil people to ever walk Halkeginia in raw potential.
Just to really quickly point out. This is ES saying that Louise *is* one of the most Evil people to ever walk Halkeginia in raw potential. She doesn't necessarily want to be, but that's who she *is*. The Gauntlet didn't make that the case. Louis being a cunt when she was a baby might have but that's so far back it's irrelevant, and her own currently suppressed Evil instincts only affirm it.
 
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