Mandat de l'impératrice des Cieux - Imperial Princess Troubleshooter Space Opera Quest

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PlatypusofFail said:
On a different note how much thought has been given to seeking to form a partnership with some faction of the Guard? As I see it Yui does need to form a power-block an they are a good starting spot. Right now she is both isolated and seen as puppeting the empress. We need to start getting more power in her corner. It is a shame that we allowed the 13th fleet to be disbanded but we didn't know what we do now then.
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Dealing with the IRG will be touched upon in the future, which is all I'll say about the matter. I have an infopost about the IRG and some other sidestories in the works to flesh out the world somewhat.
 
First off: I really have enjoyed the story, including the sidestories of Salt Admiral and Salt Honeypot. I'd read those out of order, and right up until I read one that pretty much explicitly stated she was a honeypot, I was holding out hope...

In either case, it was mentioned that this was going to be roughly Modern Naval Operations in SPAAAAACE without a fighter equivalent.

I'm assuming the lack of single-pilot fighters (which will be sorely missed for destroying the Death Star Excalibur) is because of the following issues in putting Modern Naval Operations in SPAAAAACE.

1) No ocean == no surface clutter for aircraft to hide in. Also no surface clutter for ships to hide in; warships will spot each other from great distances away, and while it's possible there's an enemy warship hiding behind a celestial body, you can just fire off a recon drone/missile for that. As such, fighters aren't exactly stealthy, and their role in recon is much less important.

2) Some vital piece of equipment (e.g. inertial dampeners, reactors) just doesn't scale down well enough.

3) Turbojets do not exactly work in space, so you can't save money trucking rocket-propelled missiles halfway to the target on an aircraft*.

*Turbojets are vastly more fuel-efficient than rocket engines, at the cost of scaling down poorly and having a high purchase cost.

4) Loiter time is likely less important when warships are easy to spot from a long ways off.

As such, mass and volume spent on fighters can be more profitably spent on more missiles, more sensors, more guns, etc.

That said, Sumeragi's new batteries could partially address scaling of reactors. You're not about to use them to go to Dagobah, but parasite fighters/vessels/drones could be made substantially more effective with a compact power source.

You're also likely going to see some specialized ASFs (Aerospace Fighters), because while there's no surface clutter in space... there is surface clutter when not in space. Launching a ground invasion may well call for on-site air support more discreet than warship-grade orbital artillery. Likely a weapon of last resort for actual space battles... but if they exist, they've likely been thrown into some kind of desperate battle or another, likely with horrific casualties and not terribly much effect.

Beyond that, though, if stuff starts to get bad politically, I wouldn't be surprised if Yui needed to formally resign from the Navy to keep the IRG from gifting us an all-expenses-paid trip to Gitmo. We are unquestionably amassing soft power via influencing Ahri, and trading out hard power may keep a lid on the IRG. That said, she still has personal loyalty from numerous sailors and officers, and if it comes time to rally the Navy against seditionists, we can still lean on that even if we can't call ourselves an admiral anymore.
 
Starman4308 said:
I'm assuming the lack of single-pilot fighters (which will be sorely missed for destroying the Death Star Excalibur) is because of the following issues in putting Modern Naval Operations in SPAAAAACE.
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Actually the biggest issue with fighters IN SPAAAAAACE is that on earth aircraft and ships operate in different medium. Planes are in the air, ships float in the water that provides each one with unique abilities to leverage against each other.

In space... everything is in space. In a *really* scientific setting bigger will be better due to more mass for weapons, heat management, and fuel to provide more delta-V. There are a few ways to get small fighters to occur but you have to thread the needle... or just go full Star Wars.
 
This is the current state of my PC.



Yeah. :/

Progress was already delayed so much due to IRL cucking (if this wasn't bad enough, I'm out 4,000 bucks for car repairs) and workload at the office, and now this. It's still struggling along. ._.
 
Starman4308 said:
First off: I really have enjoyed the story, including the sidestories of Salt Admiral and Salt Honeypot. I'd read those out of order, and right up until I read one that pretty much explicitly stated she was a honeypot, I was holding out hope...

In either case, it was mentioned that this was going to be roughly Modern Naval Operations in SPAAAAACE without a fighter equivalent.

I'm assuming the lack of single-pilot fighters (which will be sorely missed for destroying the Death Star Excalibur) is because of the following issues in putting Modern Naval Operations in SPAAAAACE.

1) No ocean == no surface clutter for aircraft to hide in. Also no surface clutter for ships to hide in; warships will spot each other from great distances away, and while it's possible there's an enemy warship hiding behind a celestial body, you can just fire off a recon drone/missile for that. As such, fighters aren't exactly stealthy, and their role in recon is much less important.

2) Some vital piece of equipment (e.g. inertial dampeners, reactors) just doesn't scale down well enough.
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You've put a fair bit of thought into this, which I applaud, but there are some gaps in your assumptions. On the tactical/strategic aspect, the biggest reason we don't see fighters and carriers in fleet battles is because fighters are just insanely too small to mount jump drives (frigates are the smallest warships that can mount jump drives), which is a problem when tactical jumping is part of the meta. It'd be pretty annoying to jump a carrier in, launch six dozen fighters for an Alpha Strike, and then have to rage as your targets jump away and you must now recover your fighters (this is also why missiles are doctrinally a short range weapon, even though long range shots are technically feasible).

Also, fighters IRL don't hide themselves in surface clutter; well kinda sorta. What happens is that fighters allow a carrier to make offset attacks, without directly putting the carrier in danger, vs warships which have to put themselves in danger to engage other warships (If my ship's in range to shoot at you, your ship's in range to shoot at me), and the greater range of fighters means that the area of uncertainty you have to search is much higher. And while sea clutter is a thing for warships... that's why the US operates its warships in concert with a carrier, so that the onboard Airborne Early Warning aircraft can use that bigass radar to search for air and surface targets (Russian assessments credit the E-2D at being able to detect warships at 450 km). The air meta that the US and China are pursuing meanwhile, is to use stealth fighters with sophisticated ECM suites to hide in the sky, the idea being that VLO shaping + deception ECM will tai chi the radar return, so that at long enough range, even if the enemy radar picks you up, the return is so low, you fall under the radar noise threshold.

Which is pretty much the naval combat meta for the quest, it's just that we ended up politicking instead of combating.

3) Turbojets do not exactly work in space, so you can't save money trucking rocket-propelled missiles halfway to the target on an aircraft*.

*Turbojets are vastly more fuel-efficient than rocket engines, at the cost of scaling down poorly and having a high purchase cost.
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It's more that the benefit of a fighter is that it's effectively a reusable first stage to extend the range of the missile, and allows you to attack without risking the carrier, and if you're doing a high altitude attack profile, it lets the fighter fix the locations of the target ships and send that data to the missile, so that when it's in seaskimming mode it'll have a better mental picture of the targets. Also, quite a few missiles use turbojets - Tomahawk, Harpoon, NSM are the ones that immediately come to mind.

4) Loiter time is likely less important when warships are easy to spot from a long ways off.

As such, mass and volume spent on fighters can be more profitably spent on more missiles, more sensors, more guns, etc.
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Er, no, the way things work is that it isn't easy to detect warships at long range. Note the Combat Doctrine infopost. It's a combat doctrine influenced by 5th Generation fighters and an assumption that vs a stealth fighter, the only way to get reliable target lock is to be at close range, using sensor fusion (hence the people whining about the F-35 not being able to dogfight - protip, it can in fact dogfight.) And if your ECM and radar kit is sufficiently power, you can no-sell peoples' sensors and jamming, which is why pirates with milspec gear is such a big deal.

Now, you can detect jump wakes, as we saw in the guard force's comm logs, but that assumes that you're in range to pick up the jump wakes, and jump wakes can only give you an estimate on size.

That said, Sumeragi's new batteries could partially address scaling of reactors. You're not about to use them to go to Dagobah, but parasite fighters/vessels/drones could be made substantially more effective with a compact power source.

You're also likely going to see some specialized ASFs (Aerospace Fighters), because while there's no surface clutter in space... there is surface clutter when not in space. Launching a ground invasion may well call for on-site air support more discreet than warship-grade orbital artillery. Likely a weapon of last resort for actual space battles... but if they exist, they've likely been thrown into some kind of desperate battle or another, likely with horrific casualties and not terribly much effect.
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Quite possibly, yes. Hibiscus Energy is currently looking at yachts and downscaling for truck-portable applications, but if you can make E-caps to power yachts, you can certainly make E-caps to power orbital patrol vessels. While fighters are indeed a thing for terrestrial combat, they're not exactly F-22s:

Whiskey Golf said:
This is why the IMC has "fighters", as does the Imperial Army Aerospace Corps, with the main tasking in IMC and IAAC use being to 1) secure air superiority against enemy fighters, 2) perform SEAD/DEAD missions against enemy air defenses, and 3) provide CAS to the ground force once it's engaged in combat (though that is generally the task of dropships). The typical air element for an orbital assault will see a mix of fighters, dropships and gunships.
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Tbf my mental image of a fighter is something closer to the R-352 Sepia with a 4-man crew - pilot, copilot, EWO, WSO. Other operators of fighters include the IRG (for similar taskings as the IMC, and patrolling air exclusion zones around the Empress), and the Imperial Police Force*'s Special Anti Smuggling Division and the Imperial Coast Guard*'s orbital patrol units, where they patrol the orbitals to catch smugglers and other nefarious people.


* They haven't shown up yet because they've not been that relevant, but basically imagine the hybrid of the Mounties and the FBI, as a federal LE agency trying in vain to get 500 star systems to adhere to a consistent policing standard, while also having to serve as local LE for the Empress' holdings of Takama-ga-Hara.

**This is not actually the formal name but after a few hundred years of being called the Coast Guard, even they use the name themselves.
 
I've always liked how things are in The Lost Fleet universe. Namely that whilst 'Light Attack Craft' (I think that's their name) exist as void units... A LAC going up against even a Destroyer or Hunter-Killer (a cheaper, less independent alternative) just gets laughed at before being blown up outside of it's weapon range. Now Corvettes might be in some danger one-on-one, but those are obsolete in the 'modern' time of the setting, with them at the stage of 'Would be retired if it wasn't for the penny pinchers/politicians' even before the 100 year war between the Alliance and Syndicate Systems kicked off.

However, unless you are an idiot you deploy them in squadrons and only around planets, dwarf planets, moons and other astronomical objects. Because in those conditions where they can actually use said object as a sensor horizon to disguise your movements, you can pull off attacks which will deter many raiding forces without wiping out all of the LACs. Of course, if the enemy just wants to hit targets with rocks (kinetic bombardment) they don't need to get close enough for it to matter. Also, if a serious fleet comes along they're just going to cause scratch damage to the lighter elements in the fleet for a total wipe.
 
In the setting I'm working on missles can't afford to mount the better drives so the total D-V means missles may not be able to catch up with ships outside of relatively close range where the acceleration matters more.

So instead they use small craft to provide most of D-V since the small craft can return and be reused thus avoiding making and throwing away 100s of pulse drives. That makes them more like dive or torpedo bombs (in spaaace) but whatcha going to do?

Granted in big fights your likely using drones not people but it makes more sense economically If you use them often so they are used the most by police types or motherships doing security work where having a person onboard for judgement calls is useful.


Edit: I really need to finish reading this...
 
I've taken a gander at those to try to bring myself up to date on your assumptions.

Probably my biggest qualm is stealth in space, which is virtually impossible. In atmosphere, there's plenty of ways to dump heat. In space, there's just three:

1) Radiate it out into space.
2) Temporarily sink it... which only lasts until your thermal control system can no longer keep heat from leaking to the hull without frying crew or equipment.
3) Release coolant (which will radiate heat out into space). This also applies to rocket exhaust.

While you can plausibly coast for a while at roughly room temperature/minimum power and get relatively close, any sort of maneuvers will light you up like the Fourth of July. One quote from Project Rho: "The Space Shuttle Main Engines could be detected from Pluto". I'm unsure how ECM works; I'd imagine you might be able to spoof sensors a bit and reduce the quality of enemy targeting solutions and ID, but you're going to know that something is present and roughly where it is.

Detection - Atomic Rockets

www.projectrho.com www.projectrho.com
www.forbes.com

'The Expanse' And The Physics Of Stealth In Space

How fundamental physics makes it impossible to perfectly conceal yourself in outer space.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com

There's also a substantial issue with any sort of unguided munition. Ships have rudders maneuvering thrusters, and even if you have perfect tracking information, the volume where they could be in X time is proportional to the square of time. I can't say for sure what useful ranges you could expect without knowing things like "how fast are railgun rounds", "what acceleration do ships have" and "what's typical target cross-sectional area", but I wouldn't be surprised if beam cannons had a longer effective range than railguns purely due to much higher velocities.
 
While this isn't relevant in this quest due to the different rules for tactical FTL, I liked the justification for carriers in Mouli's 30K quest, where the horizon in space is dictated by the lightspeed limit and the speed by which warships could make long range sensor data inaccurate, meaning strikecraft were useful for gaining accurate and real time views of the enemy formation and also engaging much closer than their parent vessels, allowing accurate close range fire without risking capital ships under their direct guns.
 
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Starman4308 said:
-snip for space-
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Less stealth in space than EWAR in space; everyone in-setting (as noted) packs even relatively smol ships to the gills with EWAR equipment, mostly because it's kind of a pre-requisite to not getting blow'd up. As for passive stuff like IR, well, sensor resolution; a sensor can only be so sensitive before it needs to start getting bigger, and it can only get so big before it no longer reasonably fits on a warship. Even in closer where you start getting reliable tracks, it's still borderline impossible to discern between a ship and an IR decoy when you're staring at a small handful of pixels.

From what I understand "close"-range duels in this setting are still at pretty significant ranges by terrestrial standards - i.e. when decoys/jamming/etc can no longer consistently defeat enemy sensors is about when the shooting starts, and when you can get solid, reliable, 100% tracks on targets (and they're too close to just spool up the drive and FTL away before the slugs/beams/missiles land) is where you get your point-blank brawls.
 
FC Error said:
Less stealth in space than EWAR in space; everyone in-setting (as noted) packs even relatively smol ships to the gills with EWAR equipment, mostly because it's kind of a pre-requisite to not getting blow'd up. As for passive stuff like IR, well, sensor resolution; a sensor can only be so sensitive before it needs to start getting bigger, and it can only get so big before it no longer reasonably fits on a warship. Even in closer where you start getting reliable tracks, it's still borderline impossible to discern between a ship and an IR decoy when you're staring at a small handful of pixels.

From what I understand "close"-range duels in this setting are still at pretty significant ranges by terrestrial standards - i.e. when decoys/jamming/etc can no longer consistently defeat enemy sensors is about when the shooting starts, and when you can get solid, reliable, 100% tracks on targets (and they're too close to just spool up the drive and FTL away before the slugs/beams/missiles land) is where you get your point-blank brawls.
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It's possible I'm mis-interpreting this sentence:
Whiskey Golf said:
Furthermore, while it's possible for a ship to hide itself from sensors, it cannot hide its jump signature: it is possible for a sensor node at Long Range to detect jump signature, even if the ECM completely spoofs the sensors.
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My interpretation of that was "you can outright hide in space", which to me said "undetected". Unless you handwave out thermal radiation, the best you can do is a ballistic trajectory on minimal power, pretending to be something you're not or lighting up the ECM suite. The last of these can degrade targeting solutions, but it's going to be plainly obvious that something in your general vicinity lit up an ECM suite.

So, if you wanted to do a stealthy insertion into a solar system... you can't, not so long as there's enough sensor platforms to eliminate jump signature blindspots and enough mobile units to check the volume around a jump signature. You can maybe get away with inserting a spec-ops team via piggybacking on an otherwise innocuous ship, using cold-gas thrusters (with very limited dV) for course corrections on an otherwise ballistic trajectory. Even then, the sufficiently paranoid can notice that a freighter was, however briefly, on a ballistic trajectory towards some sensitive installation +/- a few hundred m/s dV, and scramble a mobile unit to scan the volume where a specops team might be.

If you wanted to hide the fact that you'd jumped in an invasion fleet... good luck with that.

EDIT: All of this makes me wonder if there are dedicated drone carriers in a DD-sized FF-sized hull which just jump around to every detected jump signature or suspicious trajectory and fob off a recon drone(s) to actively scan the volume where ballistic/cold-gas vehicles might be.

On a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if the Hoou "heavy corvettes" were arranged such that with a bit of dockyard time, components could be re-arranged to free up enough volume for an FTL drive.

EDIT REALLY LATE: Forgot the existence of FTL-capable FF hulls.
 
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Starman4308 said:
-snip-
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"We know there is a force entering the system" and "we know where this force is accurately enough to jump on top of them/shoot them" are not one and the same. (Note how Yui's gank squad arriving in Egon was spotted more or less immediately upon arrival). Plus light-lag exists; unless you're shoving an ansible on every out-system jump detector it'll be a while before you hear of something new arriving

Which, idk, they might have ansibles but it's been a while since I read the "how to war in Space Foxes Quest" post and I don't think it mentioned early-warning nets much anyhow
 
Woulda replied this earlier, but the PC is still broke and I spent the weekend being effectively blind with an eye infection.

Starman4308 said:
My interpretation of that was "you can outright hide in space", which to me said "undetected". Unless you handwave out thermal radiation, the best you can do is a ballistic trajectory on minimal power, pretending to be something you're not or lighting up the ECM suite. The last of these can degrade targeting solutions, but it's going to be plainly obvious that something in your general vicinity lit up an ECM suite.

So, if you wanted to do a stealthy insertion into a solar system... you can't, not so long as there's enough sensor platforms to eliminate jump signature blindspots and enough mobile units to check the volume around a jump signature. You can maybe get away with inserting a spec-ops team via piggybacking on an otherwise innocuous ship, using cold-gas thrusters (with very limited dV) for course corrections on an otherwise ballistic trajectory. Even then, the sufficiently paranoid can notice that a freighter was, however briefly, on a ballistic trajectory towards some sensitive installation +/- a few hundred m/s dV, and scramble a mobile unit to scan the volume where a specops team might be.
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I treat sensor nodes picking up jump wakes as analgous to Over The Horizon Radars picking up radar contacts at thousdands of KM range, or EO/IR maritime surveillance sats picking up ship wakes. An OTH radar can see something 3000 km away, but it cannot perform target discrimination (i.e. tell what that something is) and it doesn't have enough resolution to use that blip on the radar for targeting; it needs to cue a sensor asset with faster turnaround time to go and take a look. Likewise with an EO/IR sat that sees a ship's wake: there's a lot of ships wakes out there, at from orbit, a carrier's wake looks a lot like an oil tanker (and they're pretty much the same size, so it's hard to tell them apart unless you have high resolution sensors, which means a much smaller search area since physics mean you have to trade wide angle for zoom focus).

As for ECM... there's lighting up an ECM suite, and then there's lighting up an ECM suite. You're thinking of brute force jamming - to use an analogy, if radar is stretching out hands to feel for something, brute force jamming is punching those hands away. But ECM has advanced beyond that point - sophisticated ECM suites, like the F-35's AN/ASQ-239 (aka Barracuda) and Rafale's SPECTRA use emissions to deflect and weaken the returns of the enemy radar. It's akin to using tai chi to gently redirect those searching hands away. You achieve stealth not by being completely invisible to radar, but being invisible enough, by lowering your signature enough that the radar return is so weak, it drops below the receiving radar's noise threshold. (As an example: Aegis is sensitive enough to track bird-sized objects. Nobody is going to run it at that level of sensitivity because then the screen is filled with noise, so they set the radar to filter out returns below a certain size.)

Which is a longwinded way of saying that no, if you slip into a system outside of the range/coverage of sensor nodes, running in deception ECM, you can hide an invasion force. Mind you, this is if you're running deception jamming, targeted sensor/comms jamming like what TF Soyeon's capships did to FC2-PPV-880652 is deffo going to be picked up, because the jamming is stronger, more concentrated.

While IR and IIR are used on warships, they're not very effective for long range searching due to sensor resolution being a problem (plus, this is where my combat model being 21st century naval warfare. Comes in. I'd say it's about as contrived as the Age of Sail in Space trope. :p) IR gives you bearing but not range, IIR needs you to have someone look at an image... these methods become more useful in the close range fight, where they're used along with EO and radar and LIDAR for sensor fusion to defeat ECM.

Like, at the end of the day, this is a politics quest about an empire ruled by foxgirls with fluffy tails. This is not the quest for hard sci-fi mechanics. :p

Starman4308 said:
On a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if the Hoou "heavy corvettes" were arranged such that with a bit of dockyard time, components could be re-arranged to free up enough volume for an FTL drive.
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Word of God here: not happening. This would basically be on the same level, IRL, as gutting say an Arleigh Burke to swap the gas turbines out for a nuclear reactor. Could it be done? Sure. Is it practical to do so? No, because even with modular assembly you still have to cut open the ship, rip out the guts, put the jump drive in and reassemble everything. Like, that's cancerous enough when assembling a PC (god i'm still triggered by all that fruitless troubleshooting), what more a ship. By the time you're done, it would have probably been faster and easier to build a new ship - especially since putting a heavy corvette in for the refit to turn it into a DD takes it off the picket force. (admittedly, this is not really a dealbreaker if it was supposed to be going in for refit anyway, but still.)

FC Error said:
"We know there is a force entering the system" and "we know where this force is accurately enough to jump on top of them/shoot them" are not one and the same. (Note how Yui's gank squad arriving in Egon was spotted more or less immediately upon arrival). Plus light-lag exists; unless you're shoving an ansible on every out-system jump detector it'll be a while before you hear of something new arriving.
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So, to piggyback on this, if we look back at what happened:

Whiskey Golf said:
Your three light cruiser squadrons jump into Egon in screening formation, on the very edges of the system, ECM in deception mode, sensors passive, scanning for potential threat. They then do a tactical jump further into the system, within range of Egon's listening posts: first they signal the all clear to your taskforce, and then they drop their ECM and make their presence known. Egon System Traffic Control immediately hails and challenges them, but the Hang Tuah's captain is already playing his role, loudly and publicly proclaiming he's leading an Imperial Navy task group on a Freedom of Navigation exercise, that they don't take their marching orders from Egon STC, that they are on Her Majesty's service and are not to be hindered (and oh, by the way, might they be pointed towards docking berths for a spot of shore leave) -
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So from Egon SDF's perspective, Hang Tuah's CL flotilla jumped into the edge of the system, outside of Egon SDF sensor node coverage - because not everybody has seeded sensor nodes/listening posts throughout their systems, then tacjumped closer in and dropped their ECM and went loud, which made Egon SDF shit themsleves. So yes, @Starman4308 against someone who doesn't have sufficient sensor coverage in the system, you can still make surprise attacks. And plenty of systems have designated shipping lanes for efficient movement of merchant shipping, so it is possible to slip into a shiplane and maskirova (at least, until an inspection boat comes for a looksee).

FC Error said:
Which, idk, they might have ansibles but it's been a while since I read the "how to war in Space Foxes Quest" post and I don't think it mentioned early-warning nets much anyhow
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I have no idea what ansibles are - my paradigm for FTL comms is based on my experience growing up in the jungle. :p Tl;dr FTL comms move 10 times the speed of FTL travel, so there's a 4-hour transmission lag between Egon and Jinko Sei (which is also a 4-day travel time by ship), and you have FTL comm bouys analogous to radio retransmission stations that are relaying signals from system to system. (And now I am reminded of when, growing up in the jungle with an ATUR phone, we had to drive up the hill to get signal for incoming and outgoing calls. Goddamn that thing was heavy.)
 
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or if you want tacticall near instant communication you make it be essentially morse code where sending one dot or dash takes a sec and only goes to the edge of the system
 
If it's not Eyes Turned Skywards level hard sci-fi, well... that's still OK. It's not the focus nor the strongest point of foxthot politics quest.

On a side note: assuming FTL travel is 10 Ly/day, that 10x faster comms speed is "fast enough" to be near instantaneous for in system comms: 100 ly/day is about 73 AU/sec, where 1 AU is roughly the mean Earth-Sun distance. The question then is if they're cheap enough in power, mass and money to litter a star system with FTL comms equipped sensor buoys.
 
Back in the old days, the Navy used to have dedicated communications ships, which were essentially CA-sized hulls stuffed with commo gear to act as mobile FTL comms repeater buoys. They've since been retired and stored in the mothball fleet because when was the last time the Navy fought a major campaign where the opposition was denying them use of Comstar Telekom Imperial's comms buoys? :V

But I mean, while this is all interesting, ultimately we're on Empress Meigyoku Raising Project instead of Legend of the Blooded Admirals or Admiralty House: Pillars of Salt :p
 
I mean, if you ever do want to run Admiralty House: Pillars of Salt, I would love to be along for the ride.
 
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