Mandat de l'impératrice des Cieux - Imperial Princess Troubleshooter Space Opera Quest

[NedTheNanite]

Looking back on those warnings/hints I don't think they were saying we shouldn't let the General meet Ahri, more that we shouldn't be super overly open with the general and tell her Ahri gets some of her ideas on FoxChan. So perhaps just having her meet Ahri wouldn't have been bad. Probably would depend on what side of the Yui/Ahri internal IRG schism she's on.

 

[Always Late]

Looking back on those warnings/hints I don't think they were saying we shouldn't let the General meet Ahri, more that we shouldn't be super overly open with the general and tell her Ahri gets some of her ideas on FoxChan. So perhaps just having her meet Ahri wouldn't have been bad. Probably would depend on what side of the Yui/Ahri internal IRG schism she's on.

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I agree, and that's what we were proposing: Just a private meetup.

But that's not what people took away from Whiskey's warning, so eh. *shrug* What's done is done.

 

[Axslashel]

I agree, and that's what we were proposing: Just a private meetup.

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Yeah, I never saw that warning relating to anything in the write in option. If anything it was reassuring because we did not after all tell Johny about the Fox-anon thing.

[X]Coyotes and Wolves
-[X]Personal loyalty to the Empress: Her Imperial Majesty has privately requested that this investigation be made, as the matter of military weapons getting into the wrong hands is a significant priority to her. However, it has become much larger than was anticipated, and she needs loyal, capable people at this earliest, most tenuous date of her role.
--[X]Bait the hook: If the General wishes, a personal, private meeting can be arranged to address her concerns about our "influence".

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If anything this vote is actually pretty close to "Appeal to patriotism" except to Ahri herself. Which in an empire might as well be the same thing, especially for the IRG.

 

[Serialkilerwhale]

Tl;dr: none of the options were bad per se, just different in presentation and approach.

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How were our write-ins? Specifically, Personal Loyalty, Cards on the Table, and Those Sumeragi Fuckers Are Up To Something?

 

[derpy101]

What would happen if we play ahri? Also i won't he suprise if foxthot4chan will be her main intelligence agency.

 

[Whiskey Golf]

How were our write-ins? Specifically, Personal Loyalty, Cards on the Table, and Those Sumeragi Fuckers Are Up To Something?

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Suprisingly I'm actually writing a post on that but I figured yanno, i did enough infodumps for one night

 

[Whiskey Golf]

And as an out-of-universe thing, personal loyalty and feudalism is a failed system. We live in the era of MeToo, of government coups being tweeted and streamed live, and social media having more influence over how people engage with their nation's and global politics than conventional media.

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This, I submit, is perhaps part of the reason you're having so much trouble groking this quest. It doesn't operate on the same rules you're used to. On the other hand other people seem well enough able to understand this quest so I dunno, maybe it's the player, not the game kind f situation.

You gotta at least try to engage with the setting and it's conceits on its own terms, not just yours.

(And to the foxthots, it's democracy that's the failed system, by the way...)

Why would we put all our money on Uncle Johnny when one scandal, like the whole Sumeragi deal, could tear apart that lifetime accumulation of sterling reputation in the navy?

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This is actually going to be touched on in another side...

But the tl;dr is that Johnny has a contingency to reduce fallout in case of scandal, which is part of why Maggie hasn't tried to use blackmail on him.

Not to mention this is all very much why Ahri is being kept a total secret.

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No, not even close.

Strictly speaking personally here, I think there's an element that is in theory covering both but by your own word kinda isn't: Culture. The shared ideals and beliefs. Until the revelation that about half the Guard wants to pull a Praetorian and put Yui on the throne, It's been reiterated continually that the IRG is fanatically loyal to the Empress. They swear Space Marine level loyalty to whoever's in the seat so they should theoretically already have that loyalty to, their own image of, Ahri. Plus the fact is, or at least should be, that Ahri and Yui can't rule with just family support. Her ruling coalition needs more allies, and turning the IRG from an enemy of Yui into a friend/counterweight sounds like a straightforward idea... on paper.

In practice, the only shared beliefs people seem to have is "trust only family, as in whatever social circle you have, everyone else is an enemy".

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This is how things work in feudalism, yes. Like, culturally, the foxthots don't have the same trust in institutions that y'all have. An institutional is impersonal and you can never truly be sure you have a large organisation's measure, with all the factioning and internal divisions. A relationship is personal and you can be sure you have the person's measure.

When the option that best handles the ideals of the empire and service to the Empress, the patriotism option, is built entirely around playing the person, it almost begs the question of just how salvageable this whole empire is. If public service has no moral weight and is entirely phrased as an almost capitalist "What have you done for me today", then there doesn't seem like much we could actually discuss. After all, you did say that line of thought would be like the jaded character realizing the big naive speech by the protagonist is being played completely earnestly and honestly.

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You're more cynical than than I am. The patriotism option is playing the person? Well, I guess choosing how we present ourselves in daily life is playing the people we meet, then. Look back at all three of the default options. All three of them work because all of them are true. Yui is a patriot who joined the Navy to serve, she is a military officer, she is a pragmatist as well.

I am a shitposter, an author, a walking JAV encyclopedia, a subject matter expert on Domino's Pizza, a specialist in writing SOPs and process flows, a person passionate about pizza. You're saying that when I present myself as that specialist, when I present myself as a pizza lover in a meeting with the CEO, I'm playing the person? C'mon.

I actually started writing the patriotism vote (and then gave up once it was clear Pragmatism) was going to win, which was a pity, I feel, because it was a nice little scene of Yui establishing to Tarisa that she gets it, that she gets what drives Tarisa, the same things drive her, and that's why she should help her, because Yui isn't building a power base to serve herself, she's building a power base to serve Ahri, to serve the Empire, which speaks to Tarisa's heart. I mean, paid out of pocket for her custom power armor (Tarisa is something like 5'3", the height requirements for the power armor corps are 5'8"-6'2" thereabouts). Over twelve generations of her family have served. It would have been an uplifting scene right out of Designated Survivor: 60 Days, where Park Mu-jin makes idealism and sincerity work.

I guess I could put it like this: I hear and think I understand the rules of the game. I think the rules are going to lead to us losing. So I wish to alter the rules, if not outright flip the table. But if you as the GM say "I have bolted the table to the floor", all I'm going to do is throw my back out and piss off other people.

But that's mostly down to me trying to quickly get a response out before work, and even during the past when I had more time to sit and ruminate on the quest I've missed pretty big keys, so what the hell do I know? For all I just said, I could be 200% wrong about the entire thing.

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I think this is the heart of the matter: you think you understand the rules of the game, but in actuality, you don't. This exchange, I feel, was a little telling:

@Whiskey Golf What about the "Meet Ahri and the power of moe" write in option?

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I think we already got a semi-direct answer to that: Bad End.

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Translation: Yui has kept the fact that Ahri made her main source of news Foxthot-4chan concealed from everyone except her closest aide, someone who she can rely on to take to her grave. Breaking this secret that not even Yui and Ahri's surrogate father Johnny knows is going to have Consequences, and normally I'd let you all drive straight off that cliff.

After that, everyone got pretty much scared straight.

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Remember how you said you thought you understood the rules of this quest? This right here is showing to me that you don't actually understand the rules of this quest. You don't understand why it was a bad idea for people to know that Ahri got Qanon'd. Well, we'll get to that in a while. And then there's also the matter of the flaw in your write in, which you didn't see...

 

[Serialkilerwhale]

Remember how you said you thought you understood the rules of this quest? This right here is showing to me that you don't actually understand the rules of this quest. You don't understand why it was a bad idea for people to know that Ahri got Qanon'd. Well, we'll get to that in a while. And then there's also the matter of the flaw in your write in, which you didn't see...

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You mean the part where Ahri is high-key Siscon and hangs off every word Yui says, and trying to show Ahri off to prove you aren't planning a coup basically shows that you've already succeeded a softcoup in all but name, Ahri would go ahead with basically anything Yui wants, up to and including "abdicate in favor of me"?

 

[Mizu]

You don't understand why it was a bad idea for people to know that Ahri got Qanon'd

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Was it that she was taken in by conspiracy theories? Jumped at the chance at using her power and position to do things, before checking through proper channels that her rumours had some basis in fact? Something else?

 

[Whiskey Golf]

You mean the part where Ahri is high-key Siscon and hangs off every word Yui says, and trying to show Ahri off to prove you aren't planning a coup basically shows that you've already succeeded a softcoup in all but name, Ahri would go ahead with basically anything Yui wants, up to and including "abdicate in favor of me"?

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Yup, pretty much this.

Was it that she was taken in by conspiracy theories? Jumped at the chance at using her power and position to do things, before checking through proper channels that her rumours had some basis in fact? Something else?

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The explanation is in the post below!

but tl;dr it looks like you're trying to establish Ahri is unfit to rule so that you can legally remove her and replace her as Empress, thus softcoup.

 

[Whiskey Golf]

I mean... y'all want critique, I give you critique. So I wanted to come back to this and talk about the write-ins:

[]Write In
-[] Cards on the table.: We lay out what our current issues and "orders" are as well as a summary of what intelligence we already have and explain that "These are what we are doing at the Empress's request"
edit: also, if she wishes to confirm this with the Empress that can be arranged.

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[]Write In
-[] Be Blunt: "I started a very concerning investigation after the empress read some online conspiracy I sent someone to look just so I can use the whole thing as a lesson on why what random foxes on the internet say shouldn't effect her ruling now we are going down a rabbit hole of a seemingly dangerous situation. I need all the help we can get to protect this nation and the Empress."

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I want to touch back on these two plans : the danger with these plans is not just that the IRG takes over your investigations and shuts you out, or hands you an investigation team with a few operators slipped in with the analysts, ready to headchop you: there's another danger here, and that is that by being so open about Ahri getting Qanon'd, it raises red flags. It will make Manandal suspicious. Here she is, she's just the head of the IRG, she's not close enough with either the Empress or the Heir Presumptive to be privy to these sorts of things... and yet the Heir Presumptive is telling her that the Empress got Qanon'd? In their first private meeting? Where Princess Yui is asking for help building her power base? That's suspicious as all fuck. The immediate reason that springs to mind: you're trying to establish that the Empress is unfit to rule so that you can legally softcoup her. Why else would you start talking about these sorts of things?

"Whiskey, you never said anything about that!"

Actually, I did, but people didn't notice:

I mean, if you know more than the QM about how the proposed plan would go wrong:

By all means share with the group. I'm keeping an open mind, what are we all missing?

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That's one outcome, but not the only outcome. I'm not spoon-feeding here. I would direct you to this exchange:

Or the possiblity that she interpretates your words as the empress is unfit to rule and is mentally unstable.

You do not have the full measure of what the chibi is thinking.

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A very good point, yes. Reminder for the thread that even when Yui was briefing her navy buddy Shiki and her mentor/uncle Johnny about the Egon investigation, she pointedly avoided saying that she was sent there because the Empress read conspiracy theories on foxthot 4chan.

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Like, I really dunno how did people overlook this part. I certainly wasn't drawing attention to it because I didn't want to influence the voting too much, but I mean, you have a poster raising a possibility and the QM agreeing that he's made a very good point. But if you missed that, you missed that.

So, since we're already here, let's go to plan @Always Late :

[X]Coyotes and Wolves
-[X]Personal loyalty to the Empress: Her Imperial Majesty has privately requested that this investigation be made, as the matter of military weapons getting into the wrong hands is a significant priority to her. However, it has become much larger than was anticipated, and she needs loyal, capable people at this earliest, most tenuous date of her role.
--[X]Bait the hook: If the General wishes, a personal, private meeting can be arranged to address her concerns about our "influence".

Here's the problem with this write-in: It doesn't answer Manadal's question. Yes, her question was literally "Why should I help you?", and on the surface this write in answers that, but it's not answering her true question. Now okay, sure, there needed to be some reading between the lines there, but I mean...

"I will speak frankly, Your Highness. It's one matter to be assisting Her Majesty's Vicereine on Her Majesty's business. It's another matter entirely to be assisting the Heir Presumptive in establishing her power base. The Guard protects Her Majesty the Empress. Against all foes, foreign, or domestic. Near or far, Your Highness."

"I resigned my office as Imperial Vicereine," you say, stalling for time. Manandal gives you a flat, unamused look.

"You are Vicereine, Your Highness. In thought and deed, if not word. If you want the Guard's assistance, I need to have your measure. Why should I help you?"

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So let's break this down a little:

- She sees your actions here as establishing your power base.
- She's reminding you that the Guard protects the Empress from threats near or far, and is implying you could be one of those threats.
- She wants your measure. She wants to know you.
- What she's really asking is "Why should I help you form your power base?"

(Also she has no patience for bullshit.)

The way this write-in is framed, what you're saying here is effectively "You should help me because I'm following the Empress' commands and you're loyal to the Empress". Here's the problem: that does nothing to address what Manandal wants answered: building a power base. Best case, you look like someone who can't read between the lines and understand what she's asking, oblivious to the fact that you're establishing a power base. Worst case, she takes this as Yui deliberately trying to deflect and not answer her question; you're talking doing this investigation for the Empress, ignoring the issue she raised that you're building a powerbase. And bringing up the private meeting with Ahri is just raising suspicion. She hasn't said anything yet about Yui's influence on Ahri, but in a preemptive effort to show that the IRG doesn't to worry about Yui's influence over Ahri... Yui is showing her influence over Ahri. Why would you preemptively offer something that was never asked? Why are you trying so hard, is it because there is cause for concern?

So yeah. How we present ourselves to the CG, with this write in, is problematic. With the default options on the other hand, you're presenting yourself to the Commanding General as a patriot, a military officer, a pragmatist. Those are things she understands and can work with.

Had this write-in won, Manandal would have reiterated her question again, making the point that she's unsatisfied with your answer. You could recover from that, but it would definitely have weakened your personal standing with her (and she'd consider you less than reliable, if not sus).

Here, have a write-in. I'm not voting for it till I'm sure it gets some support, since atm, avoiding "Oh shit the DM asked "are you sure about that?"" is priority one, but here.

[]Appeal to the Mutual Threat (Those Sumeragi Fuckers Are Up To Something): The simple fact of the matter is, the Great Houses are gearing up for war. Sumeragi in particular seems to be eyeing the throne itself, and the Navy is partially compromised and stretched thin as is. Necessity demands that you make certain any intelligence force you assemble be loyal to the Empress first and foremost, as well as limit any information the Great Houses could acquire on the formation of such.

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So this write in is on the face of it also okay, but it runs into the same problems as the Personal Loyalty Coyote & Fables write in, which is that great, you're answering the Commanding General's stated question of "why she should help you" but it doesn't really answer her question of "why should I help you build your power base?" She'd again reiterate her question, and you'd have a chance to answer and recover.

It's a subtle but significant difference that is the difference between Manandal thinking "she's deflecting, trying to hard and avoiding the question, why is she doing this, what is she hiding?" and "you get the situation, but that's not what I asked, get to the point."

-[]Also, Ri-Sumeragi is fucking chew and you have pictures.

EDIT: Made the joke optional.

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Yeah this would have been vetoed anyway, because nobody knows that Johnny and Maggie are an item. And anyhow, as I've alluded to in the past, while the affair is scandalous, Johnny has a contingency to reduce the fallout if their affair leaks, which is something that I'm going to touch on in the next Salt Thirst side.

I know people skip over the salt thirst sides, but fuckit, I like writing Johnny and Maggie and I also use them as glimpses to to seed thoughts and ideas about the world. Those who have eyes, let them see. It's not all salt thirst.

...that said, if anybody has pictures, it'll be Johnny. Maggie gave him a choice between photographing her "impromptu" photoshoot as she devolved from being dressed to wearing only her tails and a smile, or playing alone with his guns in his room

 

[Always Late]

... Ah. That's... hoo boy. I've just been anti-genre savvy this whole time. Not answering the prompt in the vote, yes, but all that's...

Ugh. I gotta go back to work, but the short and utterly inaccurate summary response is that I have absolutely misread the entire world and narrative because I kept trying to apply realism instead of treating like fully anime Warhammer.

 

[Whiskey Golf]

... Ah. That's... hoo boy. I've just been anti-genre savvy this whole time. Not answering the prompt in the vote, yes, but all that's...

Ugh. I gotta go back to work, but the short and utterly inaccurate summary response is that I have absolutely misread the entire world and narrative because I kept trying to apply realism instead of treating like fully anime Warhammer.

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You continue to not understand the point.

 

[Serialkilerwhale]

So this write in is on the face of it also okay, but it runs into the same problems as the Personal Loyalty Coyote & Fables write in, which is that great, you're answering the Commanding General's stated question of "why she should help you" but it doesn't really answer her question of "why should I help you build your power base?" She'd again reiterate her question, and you'd have a chance to answer and recover.

It's a subtle but significant difference that is the difference between Manandal thinking "she's deflecting, trying to hard and avoiding the question, why is she doing this, what is she hiding?" and "you get the situation, but that's not what I asked, get to the point."

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Fair. Honestly, I slapped that particular write-in down with about half the thought I really should have put into it to get the joke out ASAP. But I do think the angle of "necessity/mutual enemies" could have worked for that. The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend and so on. Tarisa doesn't have to trust you beyond knowing that you aren't out to take the throne for yourself, just know that with the state things are right now, anyone who wants Ahri on the throne needs to be working together because again.

Those Sumeragi Fuckers Are Up To Something.

Yeah this would have been vetoed anyway, because nobody knows that Johnny and Maggie are an item. And anyhow, as I've alluded to in the past, while the affair is scandalous, Johnny has a contingency to reduce the fallout if their affair leaks, which is something that I'm going to touch on in the next Salt Thirst side.

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Yeaaaah I was operating on rule of funnies for that bit. Didn't expect actual photos. Also, this was contingent on Yui being physically able to notice romantic inclinations.

 

[Winged_One²]

... Ah. That's... hoo boy. I've just been anti-genre savvy this whole time. Not answering the prompt in the vote, yes, but all that's...

Ugh. I gotta go back to work, but the short and utterly inaccurate summary response is that I have absolutely misread the entire world and narrative because I kept trying to apply realism instead of treating like fully anime Warhammer.

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Every time you try to map this quest to things you're familiar with, especially Western things, you end up with a distorted view.

 

[Zaealix]

...*whistles*...
Well cripes. This doesn't look good.

 

[ckk185]

... Ah. That's... hoo boy. I've just been anti-genre savvy this whole time. Not answering the prompt in the vote, yes, but all that's...

Ugh. I gotta go back to work, but the short and utterly inaccurate summary response is that I have absolutely misread the entire world and narrative because I kept trying to apply realism instead of treating like fully anime Warhammer.

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Jesus christ, do you even deal with people? It's common courtesy in most cultures to answer questions asked to you directly in a conversation.

 

[Thebigpieman]

because I kept trying to apply realism instead of treating like fully anime Warhammer.

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Man dude, Warhammer doesn't have a monopoly on feudalism. Because unless you were not aware Feudalism existed in the real world for a good few centuries.

 

[Tiny_Dic]

There's a fundamental misalignment between what Whiskey Golf wants to convey through the story and how you perceive it, Always Late.

One of the core themes of this quest is the strength of mutual understanding, of genuine interpersonal relationships and how they can support someone in great need, and to help them better themselves.

Likewise, the chief struggle in this quest isn't warfare nor politics. It's conflict resolution.

Being able to communicate both what you intend and what you want articulately and honestly is key to facilitating the creation of new bonds, as well as to buttress existing ones. Conversely, misunderstandings can arise from failure to communicate well, which can damage those same bonds and prevent new ones from developing.

No one in this quest can read minds. All they can read is behaviour and spoken words.

Our issues with Shiki arose from miscommunication - not informing each other, not understanding each other, looking at things solely from our perspective - and it was resolved with him and Yui sitting down and talking honestly with one another, not as two admirals or rivals but as friends, which is something that they should've been doing from the beginning.

The same thing is happening here with Yui and Manandal. Manandal doesn't distrust us, she just doesn't trust us yet. In order for her to trust us, she needs to understand us, which she currently doesn't. And to do that we need to communicate our goals and intentions to her, and the fact that she and Manandal share those goals - that is, you both want to protect the Empress's rule. Hence the three vote options focusing on three identity aspects that Manandal and Yui share.

They both share a lot of common ground, which could lead to a strong mutually beneficial relationship if only they could just communicate with each other using that, instead of trying to play one another.

I think that's why the write-ins didn't quite work. They communicate intent, but not goals. They try to use persuasion to sway her to our side, but without a foundation of mutual understanding persuasion won't work.

From Manandal's perspective, this comes off as not only a refusal to communicate with her in good will, but also an appeal to the Empress's authority to force her compliance while obfuscating our true motivations. Our refusal to engage with her implies something other than mutual goals.

Obviously we as the players knows that's not what's happening nor what we want, but that doesn't matter. Once she has her first impression of us, it will colour all her future interactions with not only us, but also our group.

We have one chance to land a good first impression. Think how badly that could've gone, if we instead left her thinking that we're aiming to install ourselves as ruler.

It's not a matter of realism, of applying realpolitik. It's about mutual understanding.

Fortunately for us, Whiskey Golf is a fair, if firm GM.

Do you understand why it was so dissonant for us to read that you want to disregard the rules and establish your own, to say that this whole quest is like 'fully anime Warhammer' ? That's not understanding. It's denial of understanding, a refusal to understand. It comes off as dismissive.

Now, I don't think at all that that's how you intended it to be perceived. In fact, I don't think that was remotely your intention at all.

I think I sympathise with you, Always Late. It isn't easy to look pass your own social and cultural filters. What comes naturally to others and is taken for granted by them isn't a skill that we're both good at. It's all too easy to use your own shorthands to describe things without considering how others perceive them, or that your own perspective already deviates significantly from others.

I suppose that we both don't grok communicating with others very well.

Yeah, it is hypocritical for me to be all highfalutin this when I myself didn't even think to look at the issue from other perspectives until Whiskey and ckk185 brought it up.

But I sincerely hope this helps you to understand what went wrong.

 

[Always Late]

Yup. This isn't the first quest where Party Is Teh Dumb American stereotype, can't articulate himself, and is so utterly overworked that re-reading mean choosing whether or not to meet my extremely aging relatives. And it won't be the last.

Might as well take the walk of shame with some dignity. And hey, I hear Dunce caps can double as face masks.

 

[Whiskey Golf]

...*whistles*...
Well cripes. This doesn't look good.

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I'm actually happy that this vote has provoked more thinking from the readers, so it's not a total loss.

And I mean, we didn't actually lose in this vote either. The initial tenor of the relationship might be more impersonal, but Pragmatism's a decent foundation to begin a working relationship.

 

[Zaealix]

It's like...
I'm thinking back to this:

You mean the part where Ahri is high-key Siscon and hangs off every word Yui says, and trying to show Ahri off to prove you aren't planning a coup basically shows that you've already succeeded a softcoup in all but name, Ahri would go ahead with basically anything Yui wants, up to and including "abdicate in favor of me"?

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And I'm remembering how Yui was all 'Ahri's so thin- she cries herself to sleep-I've got to help her!' and how we were generally tending to be firm but fair when dealing with her...
And on the flipside, the idea that Ahri would even WANT to be Empress-right now I feel like Yui would have to actively talk her down from handing off being Empress to Yui, and Ahri herself does not have 'being THE EMPRESS' as a goal nor part of her image of herself...
Lemme rephrase this just to be sure:
Ahri, from what I've seen of her, doesn't actually want to be Empress. She needs arguements and reasoning just to be Empress, versus letting someone else take the role. And from her perspective, Yui is AWESOME! She's pretty, she always finds time to do 100 brushes of her tail, for all nine tails, she knows how to deal with even those smug Sumeragi foxthots...Why shouldn't someone like that be Empress?
And to combine those two factors...Well. We have to get Ahri on board with being Empress, AND impress upon her that Yui is not actually in the running, no matter how appealing it might be to hand it to someone who has more then earned the right to spread her fluffy tails in glory and victory!

And I frankly don't think I have the knowledge to really...HELP with all that. I DID pick the Yui route, and I think I went heavy thinking 'we're going to run into SOMETHING out there, and if we do we'd better be ready!' and...Gaffes like that I don't think we can afford much more of.

 

[ckk185]

There's a fundamental misalignment between what Whiskey Golf wants to convey through the story and how you perceive it, Always Late.

One of the core themes of this quest is the strength of mutual understanding, of genuine interpersonal relationships and how they can support someone in great need, and to help them better themselves.

Likewise, the chief struggle in this quest isn't warfare nor politics. It's conflict resolution.

Being able to communicate both what you intend and what you want articulately and honestly is key to facilitating the creation of new bonds, as well as to buttress existing ones. Conversely, misunderstandings can arise from failure to communicate well, which can damage those same bonds and prevent new ones from developing.

No one in this quest can read minds. All they can read is behaviour and spoken words.

Our issues with Shiki arose from miscommunication - not informing each other, not understanding each other, looking at things solely from our perspective - and it was resolved with him and Yui sitting down and talking honestly with one another, not as two admirals or rivals but as friends, which is something that they should've been doing from the beginning.

The same thing is happening here with Yui and Manandal. Manandal doesn't distrust us, she just doesn't trust us yet. In order for her to trust us, she needs to understand us, which she currently doesn't. And to do that we need to communicate our goals and intentions to her, and the fact that she and Manandal share those goals - that is, you both want to protect the Empress's rule. Hence the three vote options focusing on three identity aspects that Manandal and Yui share.

They both share a lot of common ground, which could lead to a strong mutually beneficial relationship if only they could just communicate with each other using that, instead of trying to play one another.

I think that's why the write-ins didn't quite work. They communicate intent, but not goals. They try to use persuasion to sway her to our side, but without a foundation of mutual understanding persuasion won't work.

From Manandal's perspective, this comes off as not only a refusal to communicate with her in good will, but also an appeal to the Empress's authority to force her compliance while obfuscating our true motivations. Our refusal to engage with her implies something other than mutual goals.

Obviously we as the players knows that's not what's happening nor what we want, but that doesn't matter. Once she has her first impression of us, it will colour all her future interactions with not only us, but also our group.

We have one chance to land a good first impression. Think how badly that could've gone, if we instead left her thinking that we're aiming to install ourselves as ruler.

It's not a matter of realism, of applying realpolitik. It's about mutual understanding.

Fortunately for us, Whiskey Golf is a fair, if firm GM.

Do you understand why it was so dissonant for us to read that you want to disregard the rules and establish your own, to say that this whole quest is like 'fully anime Warhammer' ? That's not understanding. It's denial of understanding, a refusal to understand. It comes off as dismissive.

Now, I don't think at all that that's how you intended it to be perceived. In fact, I don't think that was remotely your intention at all.

I think I sympathise with you, Always Late. It isn't easy to look pass your own social and cultural filters. What comes naturally to others and is taken for granted by them isn't a skill that we're both good at. It's all too easy to use your own shorthands to describe things without considering how others perceive them, or that your own perspective already deviates significantly from others.

I suppose that we both don't grok communicating with others very well.

Yeah, it is hypocritical for me to be all highfalutin this when I myself didn't even think to look at the issue from other perspectives until Whiskey and ckk185 brought it up.

But I sincerely hope this helps you to understand what went wrong.

Click to shrink...

My god. I never thought i'd see the day someone that isn't part of whiskey's writing team say all of that.

Yup. This isn't the first quest where Party Is Teh Dumb American stereotype, can't articulate himself, and is so utterly overworked that re-reading mean choosing whether or not to meet my extremely aging relatives. And it won't be the last.

Might as well take the walk of shame with some dignity. And hey, I hear Dunce caps can double as face masks.

Click to shrink...

I'm really so sorry that you decided to participate in a quest whose quest writer quite clearly stated just exactly what he expects from the voters (think from more perspectives), and that you feel so offended by being held to higher standards that you resort to accusing everyone else of racism and using your dying relatives as a excuse to not bother to even read. Not even when the QM and some of the questers constantly reminds you of relevant plot points and to remind you that there's something you might be missing or to help correct your lack of reading comprehension.

Truly very sorry.

 

[Dermon]

Wow. So, first of all, thank you so much for writing these massive walls of text for us, Whiskey. I really think that they do help explain a lot of the context and the issues surrounding not just the Egon vote, but especially this one, and the direction of the quest as a whole.

Additionally, I think you're right that a lot of us (myself included) have probably been lead astray by cultural bias towards institutionalism. Now that I look back on it, I personally was viewing the Empire and our actions in it through the lens of factions, not people. I probably wrongly inferred that the Empire was a lot more institutionalized than you've presented it as. Hopefully, this explanation will help to reframe my viewpoint towards something a little more useful. (Or I might still be completely wrong, and screw up horribly.)

You've certainly made me give a fair bit of thought to our previous decisions, and I think that we'll be thinking quite differently going forward. Or at least trying our best.

Edit:
Re-examining the Navy vs. IRG assistance vote, yeah, that's exactly how I was viewing it. In the explanation-post, Whisky specifically mentions reaching out to friends and allies in the navy, and asking them for help and personnel suggestions. In contrast, my thinking was that we would have asked the Navy for assistance, and they would have their background-vetting-people investigate our candidates. In this line of thinking, we have no way of knowing if any of those people are compromised and allowing a threat to sneak in. Essentially, the institution of the Navy is full of holes.
The IRG, on the other hand, had been presented as a coherent group with a constant narrative. We thought that we understood what the goal of the institution was, eg. Serve the Empress. In our mind, those goals are identical to, or damn close to our own, so why wouldn't they fall over backward to help us?
Personally, I voted to not ask for assistance at all, but that wasn't from a better viewpoint. It was only my risk-averse view towards owing favors to anyone that led there, which isn't that much of a help when they're apparently extremely important in the setting.

At the same time, though, I can sympathize with some of what Always Late was saying. An empire built on personal loyalty is built on a foundation of sand. It leads to crises like the one we're currently trying to deal with, and can eat the person at the top who has to balance all the demands, loyalties, favours, and expectations. Right now, Ahri doesn't want to be that person, and I'm not sure that given another choice, we would want her to be. But right now, we don't have another choice, and moving away from the system of personal loyalties isn't something that can be easily done under crisis conditions.

So I at least think I understand how they feel. I don't want the Empire to work like this. But at the same time, it does work like this, and we have to play the hand we're dealt.

 

[Axslashel]

I was at one point considering the "Appeal to patriotism" option but I think I saw it as "too good to be true" when Whiskey mentioned less favours needed. I know this quest isn't dice based but it very much felt like a "high risk, high reward" option. I don't like risk so I did not want to take it.

Then I voted for "The power of moe compels you", not realising that while it would endear Ahri to the general that would not help Yui in any way.

Yui: Look, here is the empress. Is she not worthy of protection?
General: She is. *Shoots Yui*

I mean it would be interesting to read so...