MakeAmericaSaneAgain. A 2016 political campaign.

Most years they generally do lobby both sides but this year well, they gave $800,000 to the Clinton campaign in direct contributions and $300,000 to the Sanders campaign total contribution and from what I can find on Open Secretes they never broke the top 20 for any of the republican candidates.
Probably because the Republicans had a candidate who said he'd shut "down the internet". On the other hand, both Clinton and a lot of Republicans don't like encryption, but tech companies do... so that's a issue we can shut Clinton and the other Republicans down on.

From Clinton:

Article:
Q: Tech companies are responsible for the encryption technology to protect personal data, but the government wants a back door into that information. Is it possible to find common ground?
O'MALLEY: I believe whether it's a back door or a front door that the American principle of law should still hold that our federal government should have to get a warrant, whether they want to come through the back door or your front door. And I also agree with Benjamin Franklin, who said, no people should ever give up their privacy or their freedoms in a promise for security.
CLINTON: I was very pleased that leaders of President Obama's administration went out to Silicon Valley last week and began exactly this conversation about what we can do, consistent with privacy and security.
Q: The leaders from the intelligence community went to Silicon Valley, they were flatly turned down. They got nowhere.
CLINTON: That is not what I've heard. Let me leave it at that.


Hillary Clinton on Technology
 
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I've got an idea about the abortion problem, but I'm not 'merican so I want to hear your opinion. Can we deflect using the FREEDOM argument? That we'd be against it, but damn it, we're in America, the land of the free, not Russia/China/Whatever and we're not about to take away the citizens' freedom of choice only because we don't like what they choose?
 
I've got an idea about the abortion problem, but I'm not 'merican so I want to hear your opinion. Can we deflect using the FREEDOM argument? That we'd be against it, but damn it, we're in America, the land of the free, not Russia/China/Whatever and we're not about to take away the citizens' freedom of choice only because we don't like what they choose?
Not at all, since that's effectively the pro-choice position. Which wouldn't fly with portion of the populace that thinks abortion = murder. And, unfortunately, people who believe that make up a sizable chunk of the Republican base.

One bit of good news though, since it seems the abortion issue came up on a Libby action, would that mean the question was directed at her? That does leave us some maneuvering room for damage control. Then again, it seems we got some results from nominally good/successful rolls that come across more like crit-fails.
 
I've got an idea about the abortion problem, but I'm not 'merican so I want to hear your opinion. Can we deflect using the FREEDOM argument? That we'd be against it, but damn it, we're in America, the land of the free, not Russia/China/Whatever and we're not about to take away the citizens' freedom of choice only because we don't like what they choose?
That's a pretty standard argument used... by Democrats and by those who are 'pro-choice' (hence the label).

The Republican counter-argument is that "my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" -- that is, it's all well and good to speak of "freedom of choice," but when your choices violate the rights (life, or liberty, or property) of someone else, then it's hardly a violation of your freedom for the government to prevent or punish you for making such a choice.

That's the key to the abortion debate: if it were just a random medical procedure, the whole hullabaloo would be nonsensical. But from the conservative point of view, the unborn human fetus is a child, a human life, with the same intrinsic right to life as every other person on the planet. (That's why they call themselves "pro-life"). In other words, they believe that the abortion debate is fundamentally about whether or not it should be legal to end a human life.

...This is why there are no easy answers. This is why the issue causes passions to flare on both sides, why the whole thing gives headaches and conniptions to most Americans (especially those who are politically disengaged or apathetic). The hardliners on both sides have very good, internally consistent arguments (the fetus isn't yet a 'person' = abortion is about women's health; the fetus is human = abortion is about a child's right to life), both sides believe that their ideological opponents are horrible human beings for denying what is so obvious, and through it all the issue hasn't been satisfactorily handled or resolved despite decades of intense debate. This is why most Americans tend to take the 'lukewarm' path of "I think abortion should be legal, until the fetus starts to look like a human, in which case it shouldn't be" with a bunch of ad hoc exceptions and caveats to make things even more convoluted.


Incidentally, it gets even worse when you're talking about a politician like Pataki or Tim Kaine or Nancy Pelosi any of the many many Catholic politicians in the US. Officially, church doctrine teaches that the unborn fetus is a human life with a right to life, which is why so many pro-life rallies are filled with Catholic parishioners. However, due to (complicated) US political history, Catholics have historically associated and voted with the Democratic party, which made it pretty uncomfortable for them when the Democratic party embraced the pro-choice position. (As recently as the early 90's, Al Gore was a remarkably consistent advocate for pro-life before being given the VP nod by Bill Clinton, at which point Gore pulled a quick 180 and became 'pro-choice' to appease to the national base).

Anyway, Catholic politicians (usually Democrats, but including the occasional Republican like Pataki) have always toed a very uneasy line, arguing that they may personally believe the fetus is a human life (hence "agreeing" with their Church), but as a public figure they are unwilling to impose their morality on others who disagree with them. Which is the sheerest nonsense, of course -- if they were actually convinced that a fetus was a human life, then they would conclude that abortion means forcibly ending that life... and suddenly "imposing your morality on others" doesn't sound so bad.
 
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The Republican counter-argument is that "my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins" -- that is, it's all well and good to speak of "freedom of choice," but when your choices violate the rights (life, or liberty, or property) of someone else, then it's hardly a violation of your freedom for the government to prevent or punish you for making such a choice.

That's the key to the abortion debate: if it were just a random medical procedure, the whole hullabaloo would be nonsensical. But from the conservative point of view, the unborn human fetus is a child, a human life, with the same intrinsic right to life as every other person on the planet. (That's why they call themselves "pro-life"). In other words, they believe that the abortion debate is fundamentally about whether or not it should be legal to end a human life.
I've always wondered. Given that they're entire argument is that we shouldn't allow medical procedures that harm someone else's life for convenience, what about abortions that are needed to stop the mother from dying?
 
I've always wondered. Given that they're entire argument is that we shouldn't allow medical procedures that harm someone else's life for convenience, what about abortions that are needed to stop the mother from dying?
Some people who are pro-life will draw a line there and say it's fine, but a large number don't - my understanding is they believe (roughly) that a mother choosing to end her child's life to save her own is wrong.

I admit I'm not sure how they square this with the fact that the fetus will die anyway when mom dies.
 
Some people who are pro-life will draw a line there and say it's fine, but a large number don't - my understanding is they believe (roughly) that a mother choosing to end her child's life to save her own is wrong.

I admit I'm not sure how they square this with the fact that the fetus will die anyway when mom dies.
It's risk vs. certainty. It's very rare that it's certain that the mother will die of complications from childbirth, especially with modern medical technology, but abortion will certainly kill the fetus. If you value the life of the fetus the same as the life of the mother, the rational course of action would be to prevent/discourage the abortion. Their argument is strengthened the lower the risk to the mother is, since it'd be "selfish" of you to kill a fetus because you had 5% risk of dying during childbirth.

Of course, some pro-lifers will not say it's chance that the mother lives despite complications but rather divine intervention... and if they die they can always say that "god works in mysterious ways" to the grieving widowers.
 
I've always wondered. Given that they're entire argument is that we shouldn't allow medical procedures that harm someone else's life for convenience, what about abortions that are needed to stop the mother from dying?
Post chain is relevant

 
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It's risk vs. certainty. It's very rare that it's certain that the mother will die of complications from childbirth, especially with modern medical technology, but abortion will certainly kill the fetus. If you value the life of the fetus the same as the life of the mother, the rational course of action would be to prevent/discourage the abortion. Their argument is strengthened the lower the risk to the mother is, since it'd be "selfish" of you to kill a fetus because you had 5% risk of dying during childbirth.

Of course, some pro-lifers will not say it's chance that the mother lives despite complications but rather divine intervention... and if they die they can always say that "god works in mysterious ways" to the grieving widowers.

There are also a fair number of people who are generally pro-life, but make an exception in the case severe medical problems or cases like rape/incest.
 
There are also a fair number of people who are generally pro-life, but make an exception in the case severe medical problems or cases like rape/incest.
Of course you're right. @Publicola helpfully provided the numbers on:
Per those May 2016 numbers:
29% of respondents say abortion should be legal under any circumstances. These are pro-choice hardliners.
12% of respondents say abortion should be legal under most circumstances.
37% of respondents say abortion should be legal under few circumstances. This is the group we're appealing to.
19% of respondents say abortion should be legal under no circumstances. These are the pro-life hardliners.

The group you're talking about is the 37% and the 12%, which I think we have a fair chance of appeasing with our position, while we don't have to worry about the pro-choice hardliners since they're mostly also hard-line democrats. I will note that @Publicola's info doesn't break down what the position is among Republicans, so I decided to take a look and found this data from Pew which is a veritable gold mine:
Type of Republican: Abortion should be legal in most/all cases Abortion Should be illegal in most/all cases
General 38% 59%
Conservative 30% 68%
Moderate/Liberal 54% 41%
The problem is that we're more or less only appealing to the 38% of general Republicans with a third trimester ban on abortion. Maybe our defunding of PP will bring some of the 59% over, especially if they agree with us on other issues. We also don't know how important the question of abortion is to the respondents, so while some of them might be pro-life, it may not be the deciding factor in their choice of candidate.

Some other general interesting stats:
Demographic: Abortion should be legal in most/all cases Abortion Should be illegal in most/all cases
Evangelical Protestants 29% 69%
Mainline Protestants 66% 30%
65+ years of age 52% 43%
Women 55% 41%
College graduates 66% 31%
I'm surprised that the Evangelical vote is that split, which gives us some room to gain support here, if not anywhere near a majority.
Old people are also fairly split, which is a positive given that they're far more likely to vote than young people. Keep in mind that this is among all old people and not Republicans, which will probably look more like the conservative Republican split.
 
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Well that was horrifying and painful all the way through.

And very stigmatising.


Also. We're defunding planned parenthood? Dafuq?

Yes, I too am confused.

Why we defunding PP? There's literally no reason. We're trying to play the sane candidate, remember? Why are we avoiding the abortion question, and not avoiding ramifications of policy that'll turn off people from us in the generals.

everything's going to be fine.
 
Also. We're defunding planned parenthood? Dafuq?
Why we defunding PP? There's literally no reason. We're trying to play the sane candidate, remember? Why are we avoiding the abortion question, and not avoiding ramifications of policy that'll turn off people from us in the generals.
Have you guys been reading the thread or just the updates? The reasoning has been laid out very clearly, even if you disagree with it.
 
*shrug.* I think just about all of us are leftist/centreist IRL. Unfortunately we also want to win this. And that doesn't mean win the Sufficent Velocity vote. That means win the largest minority or even a majority, in the republican party, that means centreish to right.
 
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