MakeAmericaSaneAgain. A 2016 political campaign.

Goddamn. I finally get back here and find you've all run into an abortion argument. Ya goddamn lunatics.

To throw in my two cents. Pataki and Social issues mix like oil and fire. You will get fucked.
Yeah, Pataki's just too moderate and pragmatic to get along with the Republican base on the big social issues. The base really doesn't want to hear things like "Roe v Wade has been settled law for more than 40 years, and we should probably stop fighting a battle we'll never win."
 
So train pataki to figth off social issues and focus on fiscal policy.
 
Okay. I'm finally in the right spot to work on this quest again. Can someone recap me the plan and everything? I'm feeling kind of sick (So I'll be working on this instead of sleeping).
 
On the abortion issue, could we just keep it legal but de-fund PP on the federal level? I don't really care about it in real life but I gather it's a big deal in America.
 
On the abortion issue, could we just keep it legal but de-fund PP on the federal level? I don't really care about it in real life but I gather it's a big deal in America.
This is a terrible idea.

PP doesn't just do abortions; they provide women's health services outside abortion as well. Defunding them means robbing a valuable asset for women's health.
 
PP doesn't just do abortions; they provide women's health services outside abortion as well. Defunding them means robbing a valuable asset for women's health.
...You really should read the last few pages in the thread, because we've discussed this. 1) Defunding PP is incredibly popular among conservatives, 2) defunding PP can be reasonably tied to 'no federal funding of abortions', and 3) defunding PP shores up Pataki's massive vulnerability on social issues. If we can ensure that those same federal funds go to other organizations that provide STD testing, etc., then that should alleviate the 'women's health' concern. Nothing's going to persuade the pro-choice hardliners, just as nothing's going to persuade the pro-life hardliners, but there's plenty of room in the middle.

In fact, per this Gallop longitudinal survey of polls, 50% of America believes that abortion should be legal only under certain circumstances. Parsing it further, three-quarters of that group (37% of Americans) believe that abortion should be legal "only in a few circumstances" (rather than "most circumstances").

Per those May 2016 numbers:
29% of respondents say abortion should be legal under any circumstances. These are pro-choice hardliners.
12% of respondents say abortion should be legal under most circumstances.
37% of respondents say abortion should be legal under few circumstances. This is the group we're appealing to.
19% of respondents say abortion should be legal under no circumstances. These are the pro-life hardliners.

Politically, targeting that under-represented 37% seems like a pretty decent strategy on social issues. We have a pro-choice reputation coming in, so we know that we're not going to be pro-life hardliners, but our quasi-hardline stance of "no post-viability abortions" should match the 'few circumstances' condition pretty well.

Frankly, we could probably take it further. Further down on the same Gallop poll page, there's a survey that asks "should abortion be generally legal or illegal in a given trimester:
First Trimester (months 1-3 of pregnancy): 61% say 'legal', 31% say these abortions should be illegal
Second Trimester (months 4-6): 27% say 'legal', 64% say abortions should be illegal
Third Trimester (months 7-9): 14% say 'legal', and a whopping 80% say these abortions should be illegal.

And all of these numbers are for the general electorate, not just for the Republican Party. In other words, we could probably extend our hardline stance to say "no abortions after the first trimester" (roughly ~14 weeks?) and still receive the support of the majority for our position even after we get out of the primaries. The trick is to survive the primaries, with a Republican base that wants more stringent abortion restrictions than we're willing to provide.

On the other hand, assuming that most of the 37-percenters vote Republican, we'd actually have a broader base of support than Cruz or the other pro-life hardliners on this issue. I'm not at all convinced our position would be calamitous. The trick would be in outmaneuvering the media, both the mainstream and the talk-radio contingent, by presenting our case to the people in our own words and on our own terms. Twitter should help. Using the plank to ambush the other candidates at the debate would also work. Lots of options generally.


Okay. I'm finally in the right spot to work on this quest again. Can someone recap me the plan and everything? I'm feeling kind of sick (So I'll be working on this instead of sleeping).
Yeah, we don't have a plan. You hadn't yet called the vote on decided what 3-4 planks we'd be focusing on and the timing of when we release them. I believe most votes were for my plan (staggered release, focus on the three Major Planks + 'Defending Life' minor plank), but I haven't counted.

I'm going to be afk for a bit, but when I get back I can probably put some work in to figuring out more of the details of those planks.
 
@Publicola has summed up my position on this perfectly.

I'd just like to add that we could fudge the issue by saying de-fund PP just for abortion, and keep federal funding for the other women's health issues.
 
@Publicola has summed up my position on this perfectly.

I'd just like to add that we could fudge the issue by saying de-fund PP just for abortion, and keep federal funding for the other women's health issues.

Uh ... I think you missed the whole point of the defunding issue as explained by Publicola while saying that you agree with him. The US government already doesn't fund PP for abortions, just all the other services they provide. However, the government funding everything else they do means PP is free to spend all the money they get from other sources on abortions.

Abortion is, unfortunately, one of those issues where we'll just have to give the base what they want if we actually want to win the election.
 
Well the easiest way to deal with defunding Planned Parenthood is to call it a fiscal cut. We're just balancing the budget, and that's just an expense that's getting axed.
 
This is a terrible idea.

PP doesn't just do abortions; they provide women's health services outside abortion as well. Defunding them means robbing a valuable asset for women's health.
Uh ... I think you missed the whole point of the defunding issue as explained by Publicola while saying that you agree with him. The US government already doesn't fund PP for abortions, just all the other services they provide. However, the government funding everything else they do means PP is free to spend all the money they get from other sources on abortions.
To put this simply:
Planned Parenthood has an intial budget of 100 million dollars before government funding. (arbitrary number)
It spends 50 million on abortions and 50 million on STD-prevention.
The government gives PP 10 million dollars earmarked for STD-prevention.
PP redistributes 5 million dollars of their original budget from STD-prevention to abortions.
PP's final budget will therefore be 55 million on abortions and 55 million on STD-prevention.

This is why earmarking subsidies for businesses and development aid to countries is usually meaningless. They'll just reorganize their initial budget so they get their desired outcome. Of course that's not always so easy to do in practice but it'll still happen broadly this way.
 
Uh ... I think you missed the whole point of the defunding issue as explained by Publicola while saying that you agree with him. The US government already doesn't fund PP for abortions, just all the other services they provide. However, the government funding everything else they do means PP is free to spend all the money they get from other sources on abortions.

Abortion is, unfortunately, one of those issues where we'll just have to give the base what they want if we actually want to win the election.


Oh sorry I thought that they were funded generally ie just given one block grant, and that PP used some of that money for abortions. I thought that was where the controversy arose from, and I suppose I could see the argument there with tax dollars funding abortions.

I'm sorry this is my ignorance of the minutiae of US politics rearing its head.
 
Yeah yeah let's just make sure we've always got people talking about anything besides abortion and gun control. Quick hardline "no abortions post-viability" then a topic change with a "for now this is the best we can do until Roe v Wade is overturned so let's do that" if really pressed. We've had this written out for a long time now.

Desperately need strategy on guns though. Abortion and Guns are the two biggest single-issue voter blocs, period. We can survive losing the abortion hardliners that were always gonna go to the religious right candidate. Gonna have a much bigger problem if the NRA goes scorched earth on our asses.
 
Yeah yeah let's just make sure we've always got people talking about anything besides abortion and gun control. Quick hardline "no abortions post-viability" then a topic change with a "for now this is the best we can do until Roe v Wade is overturned so let's do that" if really pressed. We've had this written out for a long time now.

Desperately need strategy on guns though. Abortion and Guns are the two biggest single-issue voter blocs, period. We can survive losing the abortion hardliners that were always gonna go to the religious right candidate. Gonna have a much bigger problem if the NRA goes scorched earth on our asses.
Think we could pivot on guns by bringing up we need better mental health care not more useless regulations because if a criminal wants a gun he will get a gun regardless*? Mental health is a topic no politician I seen actually cover and it buys into the whole unconventional stances we are taking such as nuclear energy and the ilk.
*maybe bring up the ease of getting guns on the dark web. Just saying the words Dark Web might net us some interest when they ask other candidates about it and they have no idea what it is?
 
Think we could pivot on guns by bringing up we need better mental health care not more useless regulations because if a criminal wants a gun he will get a gun regardless*? Mental health is a topic no politician I seen actually cover and it buys into the whole unconventional stances we are taking such as nuclear energy and the ilk.
*maybe bring up the ease of getting guns on the dark web. Just saying the words Dark Web might net us some interest when they ask other candidates about it and they have no idea what it is?
A big part of politics is about how we present ourselves. I could very easily see Pataki using similar language and tone to talk about gun rights in a way to appeal to the NRA base, while defending his (pro-control) record. Things like having Pataki repeat the lines "Guns don't kill people; people kill people" and "we don't have a gun problem in this country, we have a mental health problem in this country." But use those lines, twist them to apply in an unexpected way: "we have a mental health problem, so perhaps we should do more to restrict access to guns until that mental health problem is fixed...."

Honestly, though, Pataki's position here will definitely hurt him in the primaries, especially among those for whom gun rights play a major role in deciding how they vote (and there are a lot of such people in America). Any pivot or policy we do here is mainly a matter of minimizing the damage done. I do think emphasizing mental illness is a good call, as well as referencing the black market. We might also emphasize enforcement of existing gun-control laws (emphasis on our 'law and order-ness'?) rather than generating new laws.

One possible new law might be criminalizing those who share guns with the mentally ill. In my hometown, there was a (unsuccessful, thank God) school shooting in which the shooter received his guns from his aunt (iirc), who had them unsecured in her house despite knowing that her nephew was mentally ill. (Or she might have had a gun safe, but shared the combination with him?) This would certainly be better for the general elections, not the primaries, but that might be a good centrist position to take, since it emphasizes securing guns that people own, rather than restricting who can buy them.

Still, I'm not particularly excited about developing a gun rights/gun control minor plank, since we'll be straddling a very fine line between "defending things Pataki has said and done" and "arguing for policies that will send Pataki's poll numbers into a nose dive."
 
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A big part of politics is about how we present ourselves. I could very easily see Pataki using similar language and tone to talk about gun rights in a way to appeal to the NRA base, while defending his (pro-control) record. Things like having Pataki repeat the lines "Guns don't kill people; people kill people" and "we don't have a gun problem in this country, we have a mental health problem in this country." But use those lines, twist them to apply in an unexpected way: "we have a mental health problem, so perhaps we should do more to restrict access to guns until that mental health problem is fixed...."

Honestly, though, Pataki's position here will definitely hurt him in the primaries, especially among those for whom gun rights a major factor in how they vote (and there are a lot of them in America). Any pivot or policy we do here is mainly a matter of minimizing the damage done. I do think emphasizing mental illness is a good call, as well as referencing the black market. We might also emphasize enforcement of existing gun-control laws (emphasis on our 'law and order-ness'?) rather than generating new laws.

One possible new law might be criminalizing those who share guns with the mentally ill. In my hometown, there was a (unsuccessful, thank God) school shooting in which the shooter received his guns from his aunt (iirc), who had them unsecured in her house despite knowing that her nephew was mentally ill. (Or she might have had a gun safe, but shared the combination with him?) This would certainly be better for the general elections, not the primaries, but that might be a good centrist position to take, since it emphasizes securing guns that people own, rather than restricting who can buy them.

Still, I'm not particularly excited about developing a gun rights/gun control minor plank, since we'll be straddling a very fine line between "defending things Pataki has said and done" and "arguing for policies that will send Pataki's poll numbers into a nose dive."
Quite true however we need to stay away from Law and order though, that tends to turn off black voters. But yeah I agree we don't bring it up unless it's brought up which we case we obfuscate the issue with mental health or maybe even lie then adopt a centrist position after the primaries?
 
Quite true however we need to stay away from Law and order though, that tends to turn off black voters.
...We're Republican.

According to Gallup, in the last Presidential election (2012), 95% of African-Americans voted for Obama, vs. only 5% for Romney.

Of course, part of that was the fact that Obama was African-American, so going by the last election before Obama was on the ticket... hmm. In the 2004 election between Bush and Kerry, only 93% of African-Americans voted for Kerry vs. an impressive 7% for Bush.

Yeah.

Republicans really don't mind talking about 'law and order' -- it's hardly like they could do worse in that demographic. Plus, it's not exactly a kiss of death: Pataki was a remarkably popular governor of (heavily Democratic) New York, despite earning a reputation as a 'law and order' conservative.
 
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Of course, part of that was the fact that Obama was African-American, so going by the last election before Obama was on the ticket... hmm. In the 2004 election between Bush and Kerry, only 93% of African-Americans voted for Kerry vs. an impressive 7% for Bush.
Bush actually secured a very impressive 11% of the African-American vote.
 
This Neil de Grasse Tyson endorsement will send the media into a frenzy especially with Tyson being so active on Twitter.
 
...We're Republican.

According to Gallup, in the last Presidential election (2012), 95% of African-Americans voted for Obama, vs. only 5% for Romney.

Of course, part of that was the fact that Obama was African-American, so going by the last election before Obama was on the ticket... hmm. In the 2004 election between Bush and Kerry, only 93% of African-Americans voted for Kerry vs. an impressive 7% for Bush.

Yeah.

Republicans really don't mind talking about 'law and order' -- it's hardly like they could do worse in that demographic. Plus, it's not exactly a kiss of death: Pataki was a remarkably popular governor of (heavily Democratic) New York, despite earning a reputation as a 'law and order' conservative.

Not to mention Pataki's style of 'law and order' involves a lot of things black voters would approve of, like community policing and more dash and body cams.
 
This Neil de Grasse Tyson endorsement will send the media into a frenzy especially with Tyson being so active on Twitter.
I still cackle every time I read over our endorsements.
Celebreties:
James Todd Smith (LL Cool J)
Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson
Hakeem "Chamillionare" Seriki
Curtis James Jackson III (50 Cent)
Brock Lesnar
Michael Mizanin (The Miz)

Paul Wight II (Big Show)
"Stone Cold" Steve Austin
WE GOT THE THE ROCK, THE BIG SHOW AND STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN.
I WANT PATAKI ON WWE STAT. :rofl:
 
Well, update is about.....95% done? I'm just stuck on the Fareed Zakaria bit. I'm at work rn, so don't expect it to be finished in the next few hours, but I'll give it a shot during my lunch break.
 
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