- Location
- Central Europe
The Stone Wall will be finished in 3-4 years. He can do a whole lot before then, especially with us only keeping a token force at home.
Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- in the trash
We still have the wooden palisade to cover for the sections where we don't have the stone wall built yet.
- Location
- Central Europe
Yeah, great argument for picking the 80% option. If the Dauni attack they will only burn our lands, make the Peuketii break away and show the Epullian League that we can't even defend ourselves... hubris.
Edit: I apologize, if I come across too brash...
I might be a bit upset that I appear to be the only one taking his time rereading on old updates and looking up QM information provided...
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- Location
- in the trash
I've been looking up the old updates as well.
Harpos is clever and careful. He's shown a willingness to make peace if it would benefit him (though we rejected his offer), and I don't think he's going to make a move unless he thinks he'll benefit.
He probably had some kind of ploy planned with Canosa, but Harpos' purge of the city probably axed any plans he had there, and when that happened he decided to cut his losses and pull back.
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- Location
- Central Europe
1) Wrong King
2) Excatly, we just snubbed him. Now we are building a massive stone wall so that his armies can never hope to threaten our city ever again. What would you do if you were him? Hope for the best and let those silly greeks fight in the south. Or, use this major diversion of forces to weaken your most dangerous rival? If he plays his cards right, he will have no problem breaking apart both of our client states (the Peuketii and the League) while we have to hunker down within our walls.
Let me make an additional argument against sending 80%. How grateful do you think Metapontion will be, if we have to send back most of our army the second the Dauni make a move? Do you really think Harpos will stay in the south while his new kingdom is endangered?
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Walker Of Chaos
Best/Worst Dynasty
- Location
- Sweden
While he undoubetedly hates us i'm not sure he can actually afford to strike against us. If he marches on the Epulian League he will leave himself open to attacks from the Frentani and the Samnites. Securing himself against that is going to take some time so as long as the intervention doesn't drag out we should be relatively safe.1) Wrong King
2) Excatly, we just snubbed him. Now we are building a massive stone wall so that his armies can never hope to threaten our city ever again. What would you do if you were him? Hope for the best and let those silly greeks fight in the south. Or, use this major diversion of forces to weaken your most dangerous rival? If he plays his cards right, he will have no problem breaking apart both of our client states (the Peuketii and the League) while we have to hunker down within our walls.
Let me make an additional argument against sending 80%. How grateful do you think Metapontion will be, if we have to send back most of our army the second the Dauni make a move? Do you really think Harpos will stay in the south while is new kingdom is endangered?
- Location
- Central Europe
On one hand I have all of you telling me how Arpus has to mind his own borders. How he might choose peace over war. How even if he attacks us he will not be able to hurt us too much...
On the other I have the official status of the Dauni Confederation:
Arpus will strike if we send 80% of our army south. Heck, he will probably strike if we send 50% south but then we will at least have more forces at home to oppose him. Also he seems to have fortified his border with the Fretani.
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- Location
- Sweden
New
[X] Commit a small force [50% of Levy is devoted to the war].
[X] Yes, let us take King Harpos and a large contingent of Peuketii [+500 men for campaign, mostly skirmishers and light cavalry, and Harpos].
[X] No, the Epulian League should stay at home [No Levies from Epulian League].
[X] Herodion, a man with the experience and expertise suited for the position.
[X] Yes, let us take King Harpos and a large contingent of Peuketii [+500 men for campaign, mostly skirmishers and light cavalry, and Harpos].
[X] No, the Epulian League should stay at home [No Levies from Epulian League].
[X] Herodion, a man with the experience and expertise suited for the position.
- Location
- Luton Airport
[X] Commit a large force [80% of Levy is devoted to the war].
[X] Yes, let us take King Harpos and a large contingent of Peuketii [+500 men for campaign, mostly skirmishers and light cavalry, and Harpos].
[X] No, the Epulian League should stay at home [No Levies from Epulian League].
[X] Herodion, a man with the experience and expertise suited for the position.
@Spacegnom you seem to be overlooking that if we're sending a large and prestigious force to aid fellow Ionians in their wars, it's fairly likely they'll respond if we call upon them in our hour of need in future. The prospect of such reinforcements would very much break the deadlock between us and the Dauni, and provide us a backstop should the Lucani or Samnites go on the rampage.
[X] Yes, let us take King Harpos and a large contingent of Peuketii [+500 men for campaign, mostly skirmishers and light cavalry, and Harpos].
[X] No, the Epulian League should stay at home [No Levies from Epulian League].
[X] Herodion, a man with the experience and expertise suited for the position.
@Spacegnom you seem to be overlooking that if we're sending a large and prestigious force to aid fellow Ionians in their wars, it's fairly likely they'll respond if we call upon them in our hour of need in future. The prospect of such reinforcements would very much break the deadlock between us and the Dauni, and provide us a backstop should the Lucani or Samnites go on the rampage.
- Location
- Central Europe
No I don't. I can very well see the huge potential benefits of having Metapontion & Rhegion be in our debt.
I rather think that you and many others are seeing the huge long-term benefits and discount the short term drawbacks.
Sure, it would be nice to be able call our fellow Greeks to aid us against the Dauni once we have beaten the Dorians.
The big problem with that is that Arpus can see that as well. He knows he will have to to strike now, if only to force us to recall our army and thus anger our new allies, should we choose to send a large contingent south.
- Location
- Luton Airport
He has no decisive advantage to make an attack while the bulk of our army is away particularly useful to him. Let's say he magically gets across the river, past the Peuketti, and burns our fields, sitting in siege around our polis.
We then recall our troops, and a while later several thousand blood-maddened Greeks and their Peuketti auxiliaries land on his head while he's stuck out at the end of a long and tenuous line of retreat.
- Location
- France
- Pronouns
- She/They
It's also worth noting that if we go to war without calling the Epulian league with us, they will be thankful for respecting their wishes, and ready to offer aid if we are attacked after that. Maybe we can even convince them to preemptively put themselves on the ready for it.
[X] Commit a large force [80% of Levy is devoted to the war].
[X] Yes, let us take King Harpos and a large contingent of Peuketii [+500 men for campaign, mostly skirmishers and light cavalry, and Harpos].
[X] No, the Epulian League should stay at home [No Levies from Epulian League].
[X] Herodion, a man with the experience and expertise suited for the position.
[X] Commit a large force [80% of Levy is devoted to the war].
[X] Yes, let us take King Harpos and a large contingent of Peuketii [+500 men for campaign, mostly skirmishers and light cavalry, and Harpos].
[X] No, the Epulian League should stay at home [No Levies from Epulian League].
[X] Herodion, a man with the experience and expertise suited for the position.
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
[X] Commit a large force [80% of Levy is devoted to the war].
[X] Yes, let us take King Harpos and a large contingent of Peuketii [+500 men for campaign, mostly skirmishers and light cavalry, and Harpos].
[X] No, the Epulian League should stay at home [No Levies from Epulian League].
[X] Herodion, a man with the experience and expertise suited for the position.
[X] Yes, let us take King Harpos and a large contingent of Peuketii [+500 men for campaign, mostly skirmishers and light cavalry, and Harpos].
[X] No, the Epulian League should stay at home [No Levies from Epulian League].
[X] Herodion, a man with the experience and expertise suited for the position.
Around 301 OL
This was back in 306 OL.
I might have GnaTia number wrong. But 800 for the league is too low.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Yeah I'll throw that number out, mostly because it's far too high. I significantly reduced the size of the cities afterwards because they were far too large.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Okay, to help clarify, the most accurate numbers for ally levies are on the front page in the city slider box, under "City Statistics, Laws and Decisions". Go to the dependencies and alliances tab.
The reason why Peuketii numbers are lower is because I have decreased their maximum levy from 10% to 5% of the population, which is more reasonable for a newly conquered vassal, whilst 10% is for the Epulians. However, that means that the Epulian League's levies have been decreased further to 685 in total. The Peuketii are at 1,007. These are specific numbers because I actually have a spreadsheet tracker for all their populations.
This also includes Gnatia, whose maximum levy is now 350, and Kerkyra, which is 2,000+70 ships. Although I'm not too wedded to the Kerkyra numbers, and if someone finds an earlier contradiction for them let me know and I'll see if I should revise them or not.
The reason why Peuketii numbers are lower is because I have decreased their maximum levy from 10% to 5% of the population, which is more reasonable for a newly conquered vassal, whilst 10% is for the Epulians. However, that means that the Epulian League's levies have been decreased further to 685 in total. The Peuketii are at 1,007. These are specific numbers because I actually have a spreadsheet tracker for all their populations.
This also includes Gnatia, whose maximum levy is now 350, and Kerkyra, which is 2,000+70 ships. Although I'm not too wedded to the Kerkyra numbers, and if someone finds an earlier contradiction for them let me know and I'll see if I should revise them or not.
While I think it would be stupid of him, we can't count on the new king of the Dauni to not fall to hubris. I'll switch to 50%. It's more than enough to support Metapontion with.
- Location
- Luton Airport
Problem is we want sufficient mass that the troops we send can take a minimum of casualties via employing overwhelming force so far as possible.
True. And I guess Harpos is supremely confident of his control of the Canosa river crossings, otherwise he wouldnt propose coming a long.
I guess it could be okay to bring 80%. I just hope the Lucani don't show up.
- Location
- Luton Airport
The Lucani are inland, our territory is coastal and Eretria fortified - they'd likely be ravaging the Peuketti lands, if anything.
- Location
- Central Europe
There is nothing magical about fording a river that is only defend by 500 Peuketii.
We would be lucky if the Dauni just decides to sit there and besiege us. A smart foe, as Arpus undoubtedly is, will focus on our allies. To the Peuketii he will make promises of land and revenge in exchange for joining his confederation. Our fellow Greeks he will try to pressure into abandoning our city, we will see how long their resolve last after they warned us not to go. If the worst comes to pass Arpus could see most of the progress we've made over the last decade undone.
Our army is set to march as far as Krotone and Rhegion. I wish you good luck trying to catch the Dauni 'at the end of a long and tenuous line of retreat.' At the latest he will hear of their coming when they march through Messapii territory.
Anyway it seems to this hoplite that with Kallias and Sideros in agreement the course of Eritrea Eshkata is set. Even as most of his peers march south to win glory in battle, he shall remain behind to defend Eritrea's lands. Should his fears prove unfounded, then this forsaken chance will be his punishment. But should Arpus and his barbarian hordes dare to cross the Aufidus, he shall take up arms. He would serve the wise Drako in the defence of this city, ready to lay down his life. Only hoping that Herodion manages to return before it is too late.
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Night_stalker
Slava Ukraini!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You know, when IRL historians hear of our exploits, they're gonna think we the craziest Greeks around.
I mean, attacking a 50 ship fleet with 3 vessels?
Our war against a multi city alliance with just 2,600 troops and doing good?
Our somewhat progressive social policies?
I mean, attacking a 50 ship fleet with 3 vessels?
Our war against a multi city alliance with just 2,600 troops and doing good?
Our somewhat progressive social policies?
Well if our vassal Harpos isnt worried about that, then we should go all in.
Switching back.
- Location
- Luton Airport
The Peuketti have seen the cost of warring with Eretria. They literally lost half their population battling us, and ended up prostrate before us. With their best remaining warriors off on an expedition alongside our troops, they are deeply unlikely to provide Arpus any great advantage even if they chose to join him.
Similarly, the Epulian League cities have been rescued by us repeatedly from Arpus and his barbaroi hordes - they need us a damn sight more than we need them.
The central point is that what Arpus has to fear is not our vassals or our League, it's our hoplites, against whom he can do essentially nothing whilst they're off in Siciliy, but who he knows will return with steel and fury if he tries anything.
The threat to our long term position is if those hoplites are lost in any great number, and that's why we want to ensure a critical mass of force is sent, lest we end up losing 50% of our men for lack of commitment to the enterprise.
- Location
- Central Europe
We are fighting Greeks not Barbaroi. From what I read loses on the field in greek hoplite warfare ranged between 5% - 15%.
Sending more men and winning a drawn out campaign might just cost us more men that sending less and losing once decisively.
Edit: This example is meant disprove the notion that sending more men automatically leads to smaller loses. I still believe that sending 50% + 500 Peuketii cavalry under the command of Herodion will be enough to win.
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