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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Metapontion. We need allies among the Greeks, and if we do not get them we will be diplomatically isolated, relying only on Kerkyra and a pack of barbaroi. Not to mention we can hear more about the state of Greek Italia and Sicily.
[X] It is true that we need money for stone walls, but what kind of protection can we expect to have if we neglect the Gods? Poseidon can send a quake and break stone, Zeus can strike the city with a bolt of lightning, Athene can smash the gates and break down the walls. We must honor the gods or perish. [-30 talents, can be paid next year if you decide to build something].
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!
 
Sponsoring a claimant at this point would serve to provoke the Daunii into war with us. Plus, without tacit support/approval from the Messapii, it could create problems for them and, in turn, for us. The Messapii could then be tempted to strike a deal with the Daunii and overwhelm us by attacking from two opposite fronts, say, if they came to an agreement to partition our territory after the war is won and redistribute the new possessions among them. It's likely the Peuketii would want a piece of that pie, or at the very least an assurance of good conduct from their soon-to-be powerful neighbours, so they'd turn on us. All in all, a good idea, but just a terrible time and circumstances to act on it. That's a card we must keep, I feel.
 
Vote Tally : Original - Alt. History - Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest) | Page 16 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 391-477]
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[24] We cannot spend any more talents right now! The money can come later, but for the moment we absolutely must have enough money to fund the expense of stone walls. [No talents paid, Timaeus waives interest on the temple debt]
[24] It is true that we need money for stone walls, but what kind of protection can we expect to have if we neglect the Gods? Poseidon can send a quake and break stone, Zeus can strike the city with a bolt of lightning, Athene can smash the gates and break down the walls. We must honor the gods or perish. [-30 talents, can be paid next year if you decide to build something].

[17] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Canosa and then to the Dauni. We must get a good view of what the political situation is in the area around Eretria, especially among our subjects and the Dauni. They are an unknown quantity and we must secure some kind of assurance from them of peace or else go to war.
[29] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Metapontion. We need allies among the Greeks, and if we do not get them we will be diplomatically isolated, relying only on Kerkyra and a pack of barbaroi. Not to mention we can hear more about the state of Greek Italia and Sicily.
[1] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Atria in the north of Italy. There are rumors of a Liburnian resurgence, and they are a fearsome lot of pirates who nearly sacked our city. We must make sure that they do not rise again without our knowledge and attack us with a stronger fleet, and gather allies in such an eventuality.

What should the city build this year?

[2] Olive Farm [120 Talents, takes 1 year to build, will produce five units of Olive Oil after five years] Olive Oil is a valuable trade resource that the city can ship abroad for export.
[7] Fishing Jetty [140 Talents, takes 1 year to build, will produce three units of Salted Anchovies immediately] Salted Anchoves are another trade resource, and a fishing jetty can encourage fishing among citizens, improving the city's naval and merchant tradition.
[0] Temple [130 Talents, takes 2 years to build, will raise the city's reputation and trust among Greeks and strengthen its Civic Tradition by 5].
[1] Stone Theater [130 Talents, takes 2 years to build, will raise the city's reputation and profile and net 30 talents a turn from citizens].
[40] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!

[1] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Metapontion. We need allies among the Greeks, and if we do not get them we will be diplomatically isolated, relying only on Kerkyra and a pack of barbaroi. Not to mention we can hear more about the state of Greek Italia and Sicily.[X] It is true that we need money for stone walls, but what kind of protection can we expect to have if we neglect the Gods? Poseidon can send a quake and break stone, Zeus can strike the city with a bolt of lightning, Athene can smash the gates and break down the walls. We must honor the gods or perish. [-30 talents, can be paid next year if you decide to build something].

Total No. of Voters: 50

@FriedIce Please use the exact phrasing for the vote next time, it makes the tally easier to clean

@Shebe Zuu Your vote has also been messed up a bit. Each of your vote choices is required to be on separate lines.

That said, we are still neck and neck on the Temple. I really hope we decide not to pay it, we have zero guarantee that the current funds will be enough for the wall and it is better to have a buffer than build a subpar wall.
 
Rex Romulus said:
Sponsoring a claimant at this point would serve to provoke the Daunii into war with us. Plus, without tacit support/approval from the Messapii, it could create problems for them and, in turn, for us. The Messapii could then be tempted to strike a deal with the Daunii and overwhelm us by attacking from two opposite fronts, say, if they came to an agreement to partition our territory after the war is won and redistribute the new possessions among them. It's likely the Peuketii would want a piece of that pie, or at the very least an assurance of good conduct from their soon-to-be powerful neighbours, so they'd turn on us. All in all, a good idea, but just a terrible time and circumstances to act on it. That's a card we must keep, I feel.
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While sponsoring someone might be too early of a position to take, I would assume that Arpus is curious about the movements of Daxtus' nephew, Gamrusa, I believe. I think getting our hands on the information might be worth a premium in the future.
 
[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Metapontion. We need allies among the Greeks, and if we do not get them we will be diplomatically isolated, relying only on Kerkyra and a pack of barbaroi. Not to mention we can hear more about the state of Greek Italia and Sicily.
[X] It is true that we need money for stone walls, but what kind of protection can we expect to have if we neglect the Gods? Poseidon can send a quake and break stone, Zeus can strike the city with a bolt of lightning, Athene can smash the gates and break down the walls. We must honor the gods or perish. [-30 talents, can be paid next year if you decide to build something].
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!
​
 
Since it's very close, I'm going to appeal to everyone to change their vote on paying the temple.

The temple's debt is not time-sensitive. The temples having to work a little harder to make ends meet is not ideal, but it's an issue that's not going to get worse if we let it sit for a year or two. Interest is being waived. That's a pretty good reason to put aside the issue for now, especially since we know that we're about to have some significant expenses soon and that trouble is on the horizon.

Furthermore, the reason the temples are in debt are kickbacks and probably some graft as well. Our ex-seer has apparently skipped town, but I'm not convinced that our corruption issues have actually been resolved: I'll eat my hat if he was the only one involved. And until there's some good proof that has happened, I see no good reason to pour money into what may turn out to be a bottomless hole. The temples got themselves into this mess; my sympathy for them is pretty limited, and demanding a bailout (at public expense no less) by appealing to our piety strikes me as a little underhanded.

Anyway, the walls are time-sensitive. We may have one-time decisions to make during construction that we will be unable to revisit later, and we do not want to have to cut corners during the construction of our last line of defense. Even if we avoid extra expenses, if trouble pops up next year, we might have to go into debt to address that trouble. Creditors are not likely waive the interest on our debt, so it might well be out of the frying pan and into the fire.
 
Again, the minimum amount of talents for the stone wall is not the only thing to keep in mind. There may be additions or improvements that the 30 talents can be used for that we may need.
 
McLuvin said:
*Looks at the hundreds stored away in the treasury for when shit happens*
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War-only.
More mundane screw-up, which would still cost ~10 talents to fix, would force us to either open ST or delay the wall.

And that's assuming, again, that there are not additional first day DLCs improvements to the wall while it's being built, and, well:
Cetashwayo said:
The cost of the Stone Wall is at least 220 talents, but it'll be a major set of decisions in its own right that will have the potential to cost more.
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So we really want to have some spare money for the build.
 
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[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Canosa and then to the Dauni. We must get a good view of what the poltiical situation is in the area around Eretria, especially among our subjects and the Dauni. They are an unknown quantity and we must secure some kind of assurance from them of peace or else go to war.
[X] We cannot spend any more talents right now! The money can come later, but for the moment we absolutely must have enough money to fund the expense of stone walls. [No talents paid, Timaeus waives interest on the temple debt]
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!

With interest payments suspended, Pydamon has the scope to work on cleaning out corruption in our temples. As with our city walls, a grand construction requires a solid foundation to sit upon - so too our temples must be overseen by honest men before the city votes them additional funds.
@Cetashwayo, might we have Ianedar of the mint or one of their assistants aid Pydamon on the financial side of organising the temples?


As to the Xenoparakletor, Kallias is correct in his assessment that the most immediate potential problem is to the north, with the Canosans and Dauni. Until our stone walls protect the city, we need to keep a close eye on these matters. The Lucani, even should they come against us tomorrow, have the Peuketti to battle through, and nonetheless lack the proper style of warfare to successfully defeat our hoplites.

In the longer term, we wish to court Metapontion, yes, but that will be enhanced if we can go to them with our relationship with the Dauni secure, and the ground broken for new walls for Eretria. We wish to treat with them, an established polis, as equals, not supplicants.
 
Our southern border is settled. The Northern very much is not. That was the whole point of declaring peace with Daxtus; get the Messapii off our backs so that if Arpus tries swiping at the Epulian League again he'll find a coiled Hellene fist punching his teeth out. Canosa and Dauni now, Metapontion later.
 
[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Canosa and then to the Dauni. We must get a good view of what the poltiical situation is in the area around Eretria, especially among our subjects and the Dauni. They are an unknown quantity and we must secure some kind of assurance from them of peace or else go to war.
[X] We cannot spend any more talents right now! The money can come later, but for the moment we absolutely must have enough money to fund the expense of stone walls. [No talents paid, Timaeus waives interest on the temple debt]
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!
 
New
[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Canosa and then to the Dauni. We must get a good view of what the poltiical situation is in the area around Eretria, especially among our subjects and the Dauni. They are an unknown quantity and we must secure some kind of assurance from them of peace or else go to war.
[X] We cannot spend any more talents right now! The money can come later, but for the moment we absolutely must have enough money to fund the expense of stone walls. [No talents paid, Timaeus waives interest on the temple debt]
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!​
 
[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Canosa and then to the Dauni. We must get a good view of what the poltiical situation is in the area around Eretria, especially among our subjects and the Dauni. They are an unknown quantity and we must secure some kind of assurance from them of peace or else go to war.
[X] We cannot spend any more talents right now! The money can come later, but for the moment we absolutely must have enough money to fund the expense of stone walls. [No talents paid, Timaeus waives interest on the temple debt]
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!

Okay, fair enough, containing Taras and securing Greek allies can wait a couple of turns while we sort our current situation.
 
Switching over to Canosa

[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Canosa and then to the Dauni. We must get a good view of what the poltiical situation is in the area around Eretria, especially among our subjects and the Dauni. They are an unknown quantity and we must secure some kind of assurance from them of peace or else go to war.
[X] We cannot spend any more talents right now! The money can come later, but for the moment we absolutely must have enough money to fund the expense of stone walls. [No talents paid, Timaeus waives interest on the temple debt]
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!
 
[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Metapontion. We need allies among the Greeks, and if we do not get them we will be diplomatically isolated, relying only on Kerkyra and a pack of barbaroi. Not to mention we can hear more about the state of Greek Italia and Sicily.
[X] It is true that we need money for stone walls, but what kind of protection can we expect to have if we neglect the Gods? Poseidon can send a quake and break stone, Zeus can strike the city with a bolt of lightning, Athene can smash the gates and break down the walls. We must honor the gods or perish. [-30 talents, can be paid next year if you decide to build something].
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!
This appears to be a nice quest.
 
[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Canosa and then to the Dauni. We must get a good view of what the poltiical situation is in the area around Eretria, especially among our subjects and the Dauni. They are an unknown quantity and we must secure some kind of assurance from them of peace or else go to war.
[X] We cannot spend any more talents right now! The money can come later, but for the moment we absolutely must have enough money to fund the expense of stone walls. [No talents paid, Timaeus waives interest on the temple debt]
[X] Don't Build Anything and wait to get money for the stone wall!
 
For those still voting for Metapontion, please consider how it's going to look to them, us courting them right now. We're going to come across as being in a position of weakness, our vassal Canosa discontent with us, Azetion a vacuum, the Dauni resurgent, looking for a strong ally in Magna Graecia to counterbalance our betrayal of Taras, because our polis remains vulnerable. We don't want to open a new relationship on that footing.

Consider instead if we can go to them next year, with a solid buffer of Peuketti vassals extending to abut their territory, our northern flank secured by an agreement with the Dauni, and with our strong stone walls in the process of being raised. Then, we come as an equal, to establish a relationship between equals.
 
Amending my vote, @Ironanvil1 makes very good points on why Canosa+Dauni should have priority over Metapontion.

[X] Let us send our xenoparakletor to Canosa and then to the Dauni. We must get a good view of what the poltiical situation is in the area around Eretria, especially among our subjects and the Dauni. They are an unknown quantity and we must secure some kind of assurance from them of peace or else go to war.
 
Um guys, remember how shitty our theatre is? Do you want that to happen to our religion as well? Because this is eerily similar to how we screwed up our theatre culture
 
McLuvin said:
Um guys, remember how shitty our theatre is? Do you want that to happen to our religion as well? Because this is eerily similar to how we screwed up our theatre culture
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I don't think anybody here is saying that we shouldn't pay off the temple's debt eventually, just that we can't afford to do so right now. As others have said, the issue is not time sensitive since the interest is going to get waived. The temple's services isn't going to suffer due to a debt that they don't have to pay.
 
McLuvin said:
Um guys, remember how shitty our theatre is? Do you want that to happen to our religion as well? Because this is eerily similar to how we screwed up our theatre culture
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We can earmark the money to pay off the Temple debts, it'd just be nice to take the time to clear out any remaining corrupt clergy and straighten out the Temple finances before we actually hand over the money. With the interest rescinded, we have the freedom to take that step.
We can have another festival next year to mark the renewal and cleansing of the Temples! :p
 
Ironanvil1 said:
We can earmark the money to pay off the Temple debts, it'd just be nice to take the time to clear out any remaining corrupt clergy and straighten out the Temple finances before we actually hand over the money. With the interest rescinded, we have the freedom to take that step.
We can have another festival next year to mark the renewal and cleansing of the Temples! :p
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When are we going to work?
Or are we just going to make Enough Slaves to not have any citizens work? Antique version of post-scarcity utopia, where nobody (who we care about) does have to work with festivals (for citizens) every day?
 
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