- Location
- Earth
It is not too much overkill. Barely.
Libra's Lament, a Magical Girl Quest [Complete]
- Thread starter Naron
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- behind you
I think it is funny that you want to tell the QM what in HIS quest goes and what not. It is rare that some people have this much arrogance and yes I label it under arrogance, because it is nothing less.
Naron and me often helped you or at least tried it. All you appear just seem to be salty because of the recent situation, even if you are the ones who are responsible for it. Your whole attitude right now points to pissed and salty.
Besides that you and some others should look again and think about a few little things. Like how often my ideas saved you all and how often I was right:
Examples:
1. Back then with burning our house down, back in our hometown.
2. The forest with Judge. I told you that going trough the forest means Brave Heart and the other means soldiers. You all were surprised and within the encounter I gave you points of shouting to bind her down. Otherwise we would have died there first.
3. The situation with our defense in general. Called it long enough but you needed a fight like Hand of Fate to understand. (Your really weird plan is only a sidenote.)
4. The merging of the twins (at least 50-60% of it at least)
5. The first mission with glory, where your plans would have had much more problems because a Soldier Supreme sniping us away. (Even if the rest of my plan didnt worked.)
Besides them I gave you enough thoughts and hints, that even Naron rebuked me sometimes. Stil you behave like you now everything better, even better than the QM.
Besides the fact that Baleful Eclipse wont be that inefficient if you consider that we can nearly drop everything with 1 fu***ng hit. With that we could even have surprised the seasons and would have got a few extra EXP for knocking someone from the seasons out (even if it was training). Now that I told about it, it wont work most likely anymore. But you are soooooooo right that a spell which will definitly be strong enough to easily knock out nearly everything without the fear of going lethal is ineffective and therefore useless.
EDIT: A last thing: How many times did you something like this? ...... There is a reason I am mostly silent and act as a tie-breaker.
EDIT 2: I am curious if this ends like every other time if I bring up arguments which you seemingly cant counter and just went silent again and/or just ignore me.
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This changes things massively.
Assumed threshold I've been working with for "too much overkill with weapon that you haven't trained to be non-lethal at it's current power" is more along the lines of "((Final End Damage > 2 * Target's Current Health) || (Final End Damage > 1.25 * Target's Maximum Health) || (Final End Damage > Target's Current Health + 1,000)".
Going down the list,
Not salty at all actually. Just grew up in an environment in which using this type of tone in peaceful discussion is perfectly normal. Despite what it might sound like, situations such as the current one are actually when I find the quests that use the system of CWMGQ most fun, and thus are also when I participate most actively. I'm having a blast puzzling out this fight.
1+2: I don't even remember much about that part of the story, since I joined a bit late and didn't really participate much back then. Running into enemies when trekking through the forest didn't surprise me though.
3: Still doesn't come across as a problem. A bit more as needed, sure. Making it a main focus? Makes fights boil down to "Does your opponent have a way to hurt you despite your ridiculous numbers? Yes: You are fucked. No: This is an easy fight. Only if they create a special situation or get really lucky: Not a cakewalk, but difficulty depends on how much info you get going in, and even truly absurd numbers probably wouldn't work if you fall into a trap due to lack of info." And that would make combat boring.
4. That is something I have always supported strongly and have no regrets whatsoever about.
5. I didn't really participate much in the base invasion plans, because that type of planning (stuff like "how is a military base laid out") is something I'm not good at wrapping my head around. Only things I really did there was analyze the known sections of new character sheets and try to think of useful equipment we could bring with us.
In regards to Baleful Eclipse, you're misunderstanding my issue with it. Being able to drop almost anything non-lethally in a single hit is nice and all (if a bit boring at times), but it's already at the point where it does that (can oneshot almost anything that isn't a veteran MG, most of whom are already allies).
That is NOT what I mean by its inefficiency. That part is good. The inefficiency is in regards to scenarios like "opponent has a Dodge ability", "outnumbered by strong MGs", and "beating the opponent requires multiple powerful attacks, even if those attacks have effectively infinite damage". Also that we can't do something like heal an ally in the same turn we cast Baleful Eclipse.
Like most attacks, Baleful Eclipse only works if it actually hits the target, which is nowhere close to guaranteed. The old concept of "the strongest attack in the world is useless if you can't hit a damn thing with it". Being a combined attack from both bodies means that it's incompatible with the anti-evasion tactic of boxing an opponent in by attacking both their current location and the place they would go in order to dodge an attack aimed at their current location. And even if we buy the Omni-Caster abilities, we wouldn't be able to use "cast it multiple times in the same turn so that they run out of APT to spend on dodging", because one Omni-Caster only working during the day and the other only working at night means that unless it's somehow day and night simultaneously, we'd only be able to have one body at a time have multiple spell actions per turn (casting Baleful Eclipse multiple times in a single turn would require that both bodies have multiple spell actions each in the same turn).
Similar problem with being outnumbered by enemies who are all capable of doing bad things to us. Dropping one is great and all, but it doesn't stop the others from doing their bad stuff to you before your next chance to cast Baleful Eclipse. Any other spell could be cast at multiple targets in a single turn by having each body cast it separately.
By people who can't be taken out in a single attack no matter how strong you are, I'm talking about people like Brave Heart (Heroes Never Die) and CWMGQ's Red Rose (To Defy The Gods). Enemies who are defeated by lots of actions rather than lots of damage. Baleful Eclipse as the primary EXP expenditure struggles to deal with people like that.
Never said it's useless. Far from it. It's a great spell go have, but I see it as a utility spell, not a primary means of offense. A secondary thing, not a primary thing. That's why I'm trying to avoid leveling it up. Levels 5 and 10 are my typical stopping points for things that are secondary.
- Location
- Earth
There are times during the day where sun and moon are both visible. Both Omni-Casters work during those moments.
That is MG Summit's Ability. Red Rose has To Stand Amongst Gods.
- Location
- behind you
First the point above where points directed to everyone. Second your behavior seemed much more like arrogance, because Naron stated something and the only reply is that he is wrong. If the QM(or something similar) is stating things as facts, then it is so, no matter the only opinion. Naturally it is ok to give suggestions, but wording it like "you are wrong" is really bad and can be misunderstood far too easy. (More so without smileys, even if you dont like them in general or something like that.)
The other thing is, that bringing Baleful Eclipse up to lvl 15 would bring us to the point where we can completly focus our EXP towards multicaster and so on. We dont need to use more EXP to level it up, because nearly nothing should withstand that (besides you mentioned points). Besides that I doubt that MG´s which would blow up the power scale of the seasons or something like that wont be within this quest. Some of crystals MG´s go (in my opinion) into the direction of ridiculous. Such Top-MG´s shouldnt appear here. BUT something with really big defenses like Paladin are more likely.
Like mentioned before, level 13 would be enough but level 15 would be going absolutly save, even for the future.
With other words: If our offensive power is totally strong, without the worry of beeing lethal like we have now with every level up and the need to use training every time. Then we have much more freedom with our EXP spending, actions of training and other such decisions.
You may think that this is boring, but then there would be other challenges. Right now it is more like that, that we always in trouble of beeing killed. Fights arent the only thing that makes things interesting.
That is the reason I would have loved to get CA (story wise), if we would have a chance without beeing in the situation of: 1 mistake and you are deep enough in shit to be near game over.
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Derp. Damn all these similarly named abilities
- Location
- Earth
The funnier thing is that you mention Brave and Red in the same sentence.Derp. Damn all these similarly named abilities
Brave Heart's first draft was very heavily inspired by Red Rose after all.
I think there are still some parallels, even while ignoring the very obvious matching Spell.
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Which posts in particular came across that way? I want to take a look and figure out why they came across that way.
I'm ok with leveling things later if it actually affects something, but stuff that's not the primary focus and is already level 10+ I try to keep as low as possible, only adding additional levels when it makes a big difference (like a plan being dependent on it or it being a prereq for something else). I just always like keeping EXP in reserve for emergencies. Multi/Omni-Caster stuff isn't what I would want to invest in if I wasn't bothering to try to save EXP. They're always useful, but against an opponent like Brave Heart they're more useful than usual. They are expensive though.
One thing about how MGs are designed though is that you don't need to be top tier to be able to counter an extremely powerful but highly specialized kit. Abilities can make a lot of Rock Paper Scissors interactions occur. For example, Black Sky is not at all top tier but her abilities let her hard counter glass cannons, hordes of mooks, and people who can't do any significant damage except with spells.
I meant that more in the sense that if fights can consistently be resolved in a single action, a difficulty spike (in the form of an enemy who can counter or no sell your usual tactic) can generally be expected to occur to prevent things from being boring, since QMs are capable of adapting to player behavior. If the QM chooses not to do that, then there basically ceases to be a point in having combat mechanics. (talking about quests in general, not just specific to here)
I never said that the other stuff isn't interesting. The storyline here is good. Can't say for other people, but a big part of what makes the things that use the system of CWMGQ so fun for me though is juggling the balance of mechanical and narrative challenges. The difficult combat makes the narrative carry more weight and the solid narrative drives me to become invested in puzzling out a solution to the combat. Either one without the other just wouldn't work anywhere close to as well.
Red Rose is just straight up an excellent example of what a top end MG who isn't a special snowflake or protagonist looks like.
Very few things on the sheet, abilities that are very powerful while being non-generic but simple and easy to understand, a near inability to be hard countered, and absurd amounts of raw skill that lets her do more than her sheet itself would suggest.
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- Location
- Ekaterinburg, Russia
She was LITERALLY the Veteran option for the quest, though. A protagonist in her own right.
Though knowing the growing pains of the quest, she would have probably turned out quite different.
I doubt Crys had the completed, current version of her sheet done at the time that vote occurred though. Would probably have had fewer abilities.
- Location
- behind you
Alone this part says that. Naron, as the QM, is giving you signals and all that comes from you is a basic: Yes we see but you are wrong.
Together with the rest of general behaviour and arguing it doesnt give another impression. Together with the arguing/complaining of some people within discord it is not accepting what Naron says. Asking and suggesting is okay but go and stating that he is just wrong is another level.
To the other point: If we complete this mission succesfully we have new EXP anyways.
To the level things: Right now all our abilitys, spells and weapons are mostly cut right before the expotential grow really kicks in. We are more like "jack of all trades" and even if this sounds good and even if we are a bit more specialized we are still one. The problem is that we dont have a strength we can play and this is our big problem/weakness. The enemy knows their own weaknesses better than us and they arent stupid, therefore will it be only harder to use their weaknesses when we dont have any really strong point ourselfs.
You have a completly shallow thinking there and assume that far too strong enemys or enemys who counter us perfectly (if we specialize) will appear. But I say it again (because it seems to be ignored ALL THE TIME):
Naron is fair and wont do such a thing. In that regard he is one of the nicest QM you can have. Then WHY do you still say that this will happen? There is absolutly no reason for it. If I remember it right he even himself stated that he isnt unfair.
Even the hint from him trough Strength was to first specialize and then go for other things.
Just look at the other MG´s. They each have a few things which are got quite the number of level ups. You spread them far too wide. At the start it is ok but we are not anymore at the start. This isnt a infinite Quest and wont go that long anymore. (we are most likely more than the halfway-point) It is really really necessary to be specialized in one way or another.
Yet you dont want to level up things where they cant use theyre expotentional growth and want to keep them low. That isnt showing that you did understand his hints at all.
Which makes your point I quote even more strange. Because what you say and what you want to do doesnt match in the slightest.
- Location
- Earth
You are quite past the halfway point. It is closer to two thirds.
- Location
- UTC -6
I feel I've foreseen some of the current problems and had multiple prongs that were meant to mitigate them fail.
Knock out Supreme Tech quickly so Brave and co have a harder time tracking us. She also looks simpler to handle than the others and has a nasty-looking offensive trick.
Have Chi set up a spot for the next stage so she can keep an eye out so we don't get blindsided. Somewhere that supports using flight to gain an advantage over non-flyers.
Trap Brave Heart with Prison of Silk if a good opportunity shows up.
And later: Say something before fighting for the benefit of Unyielding Paladin so she doesn't think we're just trying to kill her and Brave.
That last bit was outright veto'd and led to me abandoning the plan, because I thought that part was vital.
Which means I find myself in the situation where I conclude that things aren't as bad as it seems, it's worse. And every dirty trick I tried to set up has amounted to nothing. After doing precisely the wrong thing by trying to suppress Paladin and Brave earlier and no one pointed out I was feeding Absorbing Aegis until after the votes close.
Really kicking myself for missing that... He (Vertex) does that to me too sometimes. I think it's his way of advancing an argument by presenting with exaggerated certainty.
- Location
- Earth
I did not veto you wanting to say something. I vetoed the choice of words because it was OoC in not one but several ways.
Maybe I should have made that more clear.
Overall, I do think you did well on the plans so far.
Wasn't saying he's wrong in general terms there. Was just saying it's not an instant answer to the current fight.
In regards to 'completing the mission means having EXP anyways', that depends on how large you like the emergency fund of EXP to be. For me, that amount is 1000+, which can easily be more than what a single mission gives.
In regards to 'cutting off right before exponential growth really kicks in', that depends on where you consider big numbers to begin in the mechanical system. To me, any single stat of a character or spell that is above 10k, or an attack that can consistently hit for above 50k Total Damage, is already in big numbers territory. Once both sides have their stats deep into the 5 digit range and can casually toss out 6 digit damage numbers, you've gone past the range of big numbers and into the territory of "whoever lands a clean hit first wins", where further increases in numbers tends to have a limited effect.
Right now we (you and I) aren't disagreeing on a need to make our strengths better. I want to take some of the stuff that's already been invested in higher. The disagreement is in regards to which thing(s) are the strengths to focus on.
I'm not at all expecting perfect counters to specialized builds to appear (unless they get foreshadowed long in advance). That would be stupid. Soft counters and partial counters are more what I'm referring to. And that's not for a reason of cruelty or fairness. Instead, that's for the reason that once one side's numbers become absurdly large, the only way a different side can compete (the only way to keep combat challenging) is to either also have absurdly large numbers or to have ways to prevent the giant numbers from getting used.
It's not about a cruel QM going "Hah, you specialized in the wrong way and now this character will kick your ass". It's about "this character doesn't let you use your giant numbers, because otherwise things would be too easy". Both are counters. The difference is the degree to which they counter.
Dragonloli123
Bonedad
- Location
- Fifth Layer of the Abyss
If we are going to specialize I just want it on record that I'm against specializing in Baleful Eclipse and will vote as such I'd rather specialize in Scorching Sunlight or unlock the other kind of Eclipse and specialize in that if it's lethal. I also really want Spellslinger since it doubles Sun's damage output.
- Location
- Elsewhere
[X] Plan Baleful Diplomacy v2
-[X] "We're sorry, but we must refuse. The remote detonators on your teammates have been disabled already, and we don't want to harm you to stop you, but we will, if we have to. Please, detransform and let us take you in instead."
--[X] In case hostilities break out, drop Paladin with Baleful Eclipse and dodge Brave Soul's attack the best you can, to disengage. Chi binds Brave Heart the moment Paladin is no longer an issue. Reassure Brave Heart her teammates will be fine.
--[X] If the opposition isn't attacking and is willing to talk, explain your point of view - their pursuit has gone long enough you were asked to intervene. You hope for a peaceful resolution, but will not back down. Supreme Tech is alive, and if they surrender there will be no harm to them.
-[X] If Brave Heart refuses to detransform after being caught, use Scorching Sunlight to drop her defense and then hit her with synchronized scepter strikes to knock her out. Soul may also contribute. And if one of the girls is afflicted by Affinity Kill, try dropping and reapplying the transformation once Brave Heart is down. Secure everyone and go to Clockwork Queen and Judge to share the news.
--[X] EXP Purchase: Baleful Eclipse 13 (330 exp)
I don't like the talking strategy, but the combat plan is basically the only thing I think will work. Targeting brave heart just isn't practical - it requires us to break her defense and also subsequently hit her with a sufficiently powerful attack in about 2 seconds.
Possible, sure, but it's a huge gamble to bet on it working out in practice, even though there are theoretical ways to do it. Especially when there are simple solutions.
-[X] "We're sorry, but we must refuse. The remote detonators on your teammates have been disabled already, and we don't want to harm you to stop you, but we will, if we have to. Please, detransform and let us take you in instead."
--[X] In case hostilities break out, drop Paladin with Baleful Eclipse and dodge Brave Soul's attack the best you can, to disengage. Chi binds Brave Heart the moment Paladin is no longer an issue. Reassure Brave Heart her teammates will be fine.
--[X] If the opposition isn't attacking and is willing to talk, explain your point of view - their pursuit has gone long enough you were asked to intervene. You hope for a peaceful resolution, but will not back down. Supreme Tech is alive, and if they surrender there will be no harm to them.
-[X] If Brave Heart refuses to detransform after being caught, use Scorching Sunlight to drop her defense and then hit her with synchronized scepter strikes to knock her out. Soul may also contribute. And if one of the girls is afflicted by Affinity Kill, try dropping and reapplying the transformation once Brave Heart is down. Secure everyone and go to Clockwork Queen and Judge to share the news.
--[X] EXP Purchase: Baleful Eclipse 13 (330 exp)
I don't like the talking strategy, but the combat plan is basically the only thing I think will work. Targeting brave heart just isn't practical - it requires us to break her defense and also subsequently hit her with a sufficiently powerful attack in about 2 seconds.
Possible, sure, but it's a huge gamble to bet on it working out in practice, even though there are theoretical ways to do it. Especially when there are simple solutions.
- Location
- Earth
Any particular reason you insist on going a lethal route?
I did read your previous reasoning (for drama) before and really hope it is not just that.
I abhor adding drama to a story for no reason, especially one that already has its fair share of it.
Dragonloli123
Bonedad
- Location
- Fifth Layer of the Abyss
Actually combat isn't run on a narrative system and is strictly run on a number based battle system which means that the In the blink of an eye plan will work while Baleful Diplomacy requires dodging which is much less likely to work and could result in another death for us if we fail.
- Location
- Earth
That is actually wrong. This system is heavily narrative.
While the amount of actions and each character's damage output are quantified by numbers, it is ultimately my call how they use any of it. I can do whatever I want for as long as it is within the bounds of their behaviour.
In the end, the main reason for all of those numbers to exist is so that the players have an easier time telling how much of a treat any given opponent might be. It allows to actually plan properly and work out strategies to exploit weaknesses.
It is not a hard-coded set of rules that says exactly what works and what not.
- Location
- Elsewhere
Uh. I can say the first one is completely incorrect. There are numbers, but the narrative/soft mechanics play a huge role.
You are correct that Blink of an eye should work to deal with heart, but it has a similar problem against paladin - we don't actually have a defense if she energy surges and hits us in that case. Flying up to escape is even less backed than dodging, especially when the enemy has 6 APT.
Baleful diplomacy shouldn't require dodging - even if we fail to dodge, we saw how that worked in the update - they'll need an extra attack to actually kill us (if they hit moon. They might not even manage it with that if they hit sun.) And chi can bind brave heart very quickly, taking her out.
The dodge is even listed as "the best you can". It's not something we are relying on.
No, it's not strictly number based. If it was, the soft mechanics wouldn't exist.
The actual points of potential failure with that plan are
1) It ignores the possibility that the soldiers are off doing something and doesn't try to check up on that after defeating the MGs but before meeting up with our allies.
2) It could run into issues if Brave Heart (whose name is still typo'd in it) dodges Chi's bind now that she knows it's around. That would still slow her down, but she would still have more actions per turn than we can dodge.
- Location
- behind you
Suggesting of us giong the lethal-route come really late. More so if our mission is to capture our enemys. Everything in character and story wise was going non-lethal. Sry to say that, but if you dont have a REAL reason for that you are quite wrong here. Naturally you can still try to go that way, but even then it wouldnt make much sense if we look at our characters.
Dragonloli123
Bonedad
- Location
- Fifth Layer of the Abyss
Well kinda I really liked the conflict earlier on where the twins had to seriously consider that they may end up killing someone unintentionally with their powers due to them getting stronger at random times and Sun actually did do that once. I wanted to see them either come to peace with the fact that sometimes they would have to kill to do what they believe in or get strong/skilled enough that they would be able to take someone down nonlethally which is way harder then just killing someone. But getting Baleful Eclipse just threw that entire line of thought into the trash along with the potential character growth since it's such an easy a perfect solution to the problem. In fact It was so easy that it actually came off as kind of lazy to me since we just had a solution to a problem that had been plaguing us the entire quest set down in our lap. While I agree with you that adding drama to a story for no reason isn't good I also feel that removing drama from is a story for no reason is just as bad. I realize that the ship on this has sailed since I wasn't here when we got it but I just wanted to say my piece.
Edit: Ok I admit I'm not that good with the intricacies of the system it just kinda seemed like a good Idea to me.
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