Lets Read: World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War

also- kinda an inescapable fact of the material structures of the Rockies safe zone post-Redeker government. I think I actually had a previous post already talking about it
Even in the most anodyne reading of the text the government is basically cut down to "whatever's fighting WWZ" over most of the country, with a war coalition in government restricting most politics to "internal fights within the primaries" in terms of time and space, which goes double for half the country only hearing about it all a couple weeks later through ham radio, and restricting most politics to "how do we fight WWZ" in terms of the ideological spectrum of a state now devoted to non-partisan management of the crisis over any other political goals. That state of affairs persisting over a decade, and building the political structure to not just exhaust itself and collapse in year 5 or whatever, that's very much like Kemal's Turkey or Pilsudski's Poland if you just replaced zombies with colonialism, and the establishment of a modern nation-state against both the great colonial European powers... and against internal minorities. That's kinda the big unexamined bit of Brooks' post-zombie national redoubt governments right there, even more than just the military as the tail wagging the dog as like most of what the government does now, in that the fundamental structure of a besieged national coalition suspending most politics in the name of building or rebuilding a nationality and an apparatus of state is an almost impossible needle to thread here, to avoid authoritarianism.

Like, imagine its in the heyday of the worst of the KMT dictatorship and the White Terror justifying itself as through building a state out of the wilderness in Taiwan to fight Mao and reclaim the mainland for the Republic of China, but then in some weird Fallout style atomic post-apocalyptic timeline Chiang Kai-Shek does get that opportunity to start marching through Guangdong, and just I dunno also having to fight off atomic mutants and monsters while doing so. I would think that even anti-communists can agree that this scenario is like, the most unhealthy circumstances for the reborn ROC's political environment, and that voluntarily laying out a grand strategic vision to purposely do the 40s and the flight to Taiwan all to arrive at that moment (which is the Redeker Plan in action) can only be a crime against your own people.
 
I apologize if I was unable to glean some things from the fic, English is not mother tongue but I do try. [...] Before I continue I do just want to apologize if was unable to read too deep into things, I have a friend reading over my shoulder making sure I'm writing correctly (He's from missasauga).
It's fine.

With the Redeker plan being fascist, in a sense you are right, sacrificing people for the national goal of self preservation is a authoritarian way of doing things, but I also can't imagine another way of doing things being especially effective given the in-universe issues with the zombie apocalypse. I specifically relate to this point, the Germans in the story specifically mention its inherent similarity with what the Nazis were doing in 1943, my father is German so I can sympathize with him wanting the blow the easterners head off after such an order. The beauty of the story is that despite stooping to these depths, the ideals of the old world are still maintained, democracy prevails in the end and humanity rebuilds in a broken world. I also know this is a very transformers movie series way of framing my point, but imagine the ending scene to a Michael bay movie and that feelings pretty much it .

While I don't think every crisis requires a solution as extreme as this, Redeker is the reason why in certain crises we have emergency powers, so that extremist solutions can be undertaken by the often ruling moderate party. But I also don't agree with how the author hand waves it away so quickly to replace it with a plan that magically saves more people. I understand it is a gotcha moment, that Redeker is supposed to be this mas***batory aid for the hardcore 'hard men make the hard decisions' people who I meet enough of to know that they're an insufferably large amount of the population. But in essence the bristol plan is like a power fantasy, if you've ever read the slop they're putting out in the Isekai genre these days its almost exactly like what the MC can do 5 chapters in.
Okay, but a core part of this Let's Read premise is veteranMortal poking holes in the narrative of the book and show how the text can be reinterpreted to tell a different kind of story, one where the horrible things done were not grim necessities and the spirit of liberty did not win in the end.

I suppose your argument is that she went too far from the original source in her reinterpretation; that she made the US too evil, survival too easy, the PRC too competent, etc? Do you think you could give more specific criticisms, with examples of violating the text of the book? Because at the moment it mostly just seems like a matter of complaining about veteran's writing not matching your tastes.
 
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First two points is bit of an exaggeration, this was back in the 2000s so Tiananmen square was still fresh in the mind of someone as old as Brooks and before the economic liberalization petered out to the rest of the world so China was still a very mysterious place to the rest of the world—
The book was written in 2005, not 1805. I was an American in 2005, so trust me when I say: China wasn't a mysterious oriental realm to Americans. It was an enemy, or at best a potential rival.

When pundits wanted to make people care about the deficit, they talked about all the money "we" owed to CHINA, even though most government debt was owed to other Americans (or even other branches of government) and China didn't even have a majority of foreign-owned debt. The fear of China being able to leverage that debt to influence the USA was terrifying.

People talked about Chinese communist totalitarianism, sometimes referencing actual human rights abuses, but just as often talking about the state-run aspects of their economy or weird cultural differences or wholly fictitious claims about China. It's a superstitious place, and a godless one, and a dictatorship, and communist, and advanced, and savage, and worst of all, a potential rival to US hegemony. Every effort to exert soft power on the global stage was viewed with open suspicion or hostility, even when they were just providing foreign aid like any other country. It's evil because China's doing it, and we don't want China's influence to spread!

At best, this China was being used as a foil to America, a mirror to examine American values. They're all collectivist, we're individualist; they're communist, we're libertarian. At worst, it was used as a fearmongering tool. Loads of sci-fi stories (mostly but not entirely cyberpunk) included increasing Chinese influence as a sign of how dystopic things were getting.
There were also a surprising number of stories where China being more magical than the West was just taken for granted. I can remember two separate cartoons from my childhood about a struggle between the good-guy team and the bad-guy team to control a set of magical Chinese artifacts, and while that's not a lot, I'm pretty sure there are other examples I don't remember (which probably don't fit that narrow description as well as Xiaolin Showdown or Jackie Chan Adventures).

Anyways, China was well-known to Americans. But it was known as a threat, and while many of the things known about China were not actually accurate, there isn't really an excuse for that ignorance beyond "everyone was saying this kind of shit". It's hard to blame any individual when there's so much sinophobia flying around, but as a collective? We should have known better, even in 2005.

The more things change the more they stay the same, amirite?

I also just want to talk about how both nations started the war with similar outdated ideologies, but in the US was able to replace those Yonkers generals with a more transparent military system while China was stuck with the 'crotchety old f*cks' in the politburo, hence needing violent action to do what the US could do in peaceful fashion.
And it doesn't strike you as suspect that, in a novel where Israel and Palestine non-problematically put aside their differences and Cuba embraces capitalism to survive, it's China that sticks to the old ways and continues to fuck with the rest of the world?

Chinese Taikonauts are picked for their loyalty to the party, in China people tried to stab Japanese children on the street because of the rhetoric the party has been putting out, is it really that much of a stretch to believe the CCP could find people in a population of 1.4 billion to do this? Also delayed fuses are a thing.
Is it a stretch to believe that the CCP could find people who were willing to throw their lives away to follow an order that doesn't help anyone? One that is not only bad for humanity at large, but also for China in specific and the person throwing the trigger even more specifically?

Many people are willing to throw their lives away for some cause they believe in, but very few are willing to do so if their sacrifice will not actually benefit that cause. People will run into the deadly melee to win a battle, but they will flee when they realize the battle is lost.

There might be people so blind or obedient that, even when the stakes are impossibly high on all sides, they will follow orders to kill themselves and fuck everyone up for no reason. But I don't think it's possible to know whether any given person is that kind of person until they've actually faced such impossibly high stakes.

Also: Taikonauts are not actually chosen for loyalty above all else! They are chosen, first and foremost, for completing the necessary training to operate spacecraft without dying, followed by meeting health requirements to live in space without dying. The pool of potential taikonauts is much smaller than 1.4 billion.
Arguing that Chinese people are fungible, that any Chinese citizen could be chosen to perform whatever job is required of them, is kinda fuckin' racist!

In case you don't believe me, have a citation. Though I hope I don't need a citation for "Chinese astronauts need as much training as American ones"...

I think part of the reason I liked this books portrayal is that it was one of the first books I read openly critical of the PRC, since I grew up in a time where Hollywood and media in general was trying to get the Chinese audience to watch their movies and read their books in not so subtle ways, so this was a bit more refreshing.
A 4chan rant about Chinese immigrants stealing jobs and eating babies fits this rubric.
Raise your standards. You deserve better
what?
You say you liked WWZ for being openly critical of the PRC.
I pointed out that that's a horribly low bar; it applies even if the media in question is telling obvious lies and advancing openly racist causes.

You deserve better than World War Z. You deserve stories that are critical of the PRC and also accurate, stories which criticize it for the things it actually does and not shit the author heard from Glen Beck (or I guess Alex Jones, these days).
Raise your standards.
 
I suppose your argument is that she went too far from the original source in her reinterpretation; that she made the US too evil, survival too easy, the PRC too competent, etc? Do you think you could give more specific criticisms, with examples of violating the text of the book?
Exactly this is what I meant, the US is reduced to a state completely unhinged from reality, massacres are mentioned very regularly and corporations (even though at LEAST 3/4s would be destroyed with the east coast overrun) still control America. The book regularly mentions that the US shifted to left-wing policies both to combat the infected through a pseudo-command economy, and as a reaction to the corporate greed which is perceived to have caused the great panic (also didn't help that the incumbent was probably republican). However this is all ignored by decrying the US as resorting to fascist industrial techniques to produce enough weapons to fight the horde, also ignoring how the American west coast safe zone is turned into the most politically, ethnically and religiously diverse area after the refugees start arriving. The special forces are a continued source of evil in the story, assassinations, exterminations are all shoved under delta forces ever expanding crime list. The US has a hell of a lot of checks and balances within the military, which is why there hasn't been a coup plot from military since 1783, almost always coming from political rivals or organizations separate from the military. They may have used people FROM the military, the big business plot comes to mind, but by the time that has happened they have left the government and are disgruntled veterans.

Survival is way easier in this fic, suddenly worker militias are able to take huge amounts of land which the US military could not defend, and can eke out rebel states throughout the apocalypse. In some ways it offers a richer world, but it makes the zombies less than useless in their effort to collapse civilization, there was no reason to employ the Redeker plan and there was no reason to abandon all the rich land east of the Rockies. From the viewpoint of a power-hungry military dictatorship, it's not rational to retreat and leave your subjects that you wish to grow fat on to die, the hard part was done they already got their man in power but suddenly whichever 5 star general in charge had a stroke and decided Honolulu was nice this time of year.

Which brings me to my next point, this fic is very generous to socialist and communist governments, to the point that its pretty much set in stone that whichever developed nation comes up next is the one to turn red. German cities in the south and the great lakes for example, both are bastions of moral freedoms which we know wasn't really how they operated in the real world. This is my complaint about the authors writing style, there should be diversity in socialist thought, the vast majority are completely blameless in the story and there should by some Stalinism, social democracy and might as well sprinkle in some posadism too. If the story is about the loss of the ideals of liberty, than extend that to every political spectrum, the nations that survive shouldn't all be fascist, and the communists shouldn't be completely blameless too, but maybe that's just the writing POV talking.

Also what is it with the hatred of religion, everytime its mentioned its either evil or crazy, the author mentioned the 'christian states' and we're already meant to infer from that that its a racist, fascist and sexist nation. I've met my fair share of Christian fundamentalists, a LOT of them are good people, they don't force their religion onto them and I'm sure if some of them were in the apocalypse they would spend their time helping people. Maybe you can say that from the name that the word Christian at the start signifies them forcing the religion onto others but there are places identifying themselves as christian states that are good place to live, Norway, Denmark and lichtenstein for example, hell the largest party in Germany is called the Christian Democratic Union!

My argument was that the PRC are just right in terms of competency with certain exceptions.
 
The book was written in 2005, not 1805. I was an American in 2005, so trust me when I say: China wasn't a mysterious oriental realm to Americans. It was an enemy, or at best a potential rival.

When pundits wanted to make people care about the deficit, they talked about all the money "we" owed to CHINA, even though most government debt was owed to other Americans (or even other branches of government) and China didn't even have a majority of foreign-owned debt. The fear of China being able to leverage that debt to influence the USA was terrifying.

People talked about Chinese communist totalitarianism, sometimes referencing actual human rights abuses, but just as often talking about the state-run aspects of their economy or weird cultural differences or wholly fictitious claims about China. It's a superstitious place, and a godless one, and a dictatorship, and communist, and advanced, and savage, and worst of all, a potential rival to US hegemony. Every effort to exert soft power on the global stage was viewed with open suspicion or hostility, even when they were just providing foreign aid like any other country. It's evil because China's doing it, and we don't want China's influence to spread!

At best, this China was being used as a foil to America, a mirror to examine American values. They're all collectivist, we're individualist; they're communist, we're libertarian. At worst, it was used as a fearmongering tool. Loads of sci-fi stories (mostly but not entirely cyberpunk) included increasing Chinese influence as a sign of how dystopic things were getting.
There were also a surprising number of stories where China being more magical than the West was just taken for granted. I can remember two separate cartoons from my childhood about a struggle between the good-guy team and the bad-guy team to control a set of magical Chinese artifacts, and while that's not a lot, I'm pretty sure there are other examples I don't remember (which probably don't fit that narrow description as well as Xiaolin Showdown or Jackie Chan Adventures).

Anyways, China was well-known to Americans. But it was known as a threat, and while many of the things known about China were not actually accurate, there isn't really an excuse for that ignorance beyond "everyone was saying this kind of shit". It's hard to blame any individual when there's so much sinophobia flying around, but as a collective? We should have known better, even in 2005.

The more things change the more they stay the same, amirite?
Sorry for my wording, but I was trying to reference the wests misunderstanding of party politics to the point where they thought of the CCP as this monolithic organization instead of the diverse political battleground that it is. so we drew a lot more comparisons to North Korea then we would have liked. Also it is a superstitious place, state sponsored industrialization meant we still kept many peasant traditions, Chinese medicine stores still exist both on the mainland and Taiwan, we didn't 'naturally modernize' so large portions of our population were still uneducated and resorted to traditional herbal remedies sometimes (rural urban divide didn't help much). Much like how in Russia the orthodoxy still maintained power, perhaps emerging stronger than before after the Soviet ban on religion went away.

I do agree that American fearmongering was a bit overplayed in the media, very similar to their treatment of Japan in the 70s, but I don't think it was wholly unjustified. For all of Chinas accomplishments it hasn't exactly become a moral haven, public opinion doesn't matter and most of their actions seem to be fueled by a desire to end the century of humiliation. 'Foreign Aid' is done with the aim of reducing reliance on the west, so the Chinese can slip in and make their own slave cobalt mines, say what you will about China helping poorer nations but it is still a deeply racist nation. There are videos online of Chinese overseers beating African workers, a common social media trope in China is showcasing how being attacked overseas (more often that not by Africans) can be solved by showing the PRC passport, which will make them get on their knees and beg for forgiveness. Chinese totalitarianism is something to be feared, hence why the US media machine mobilized against it in the early years. Most of this fearmongering is also aimed at the CCP, not the Chinese people, the presence of Taiwan also makes this helpful providing an example of a Chinese owned state without all the concentration camps and sweatshops (ok maybe we have a few sweatshops but less than the mainland I swear), honorable mention to Asian Americans, the most successful immigrant group of the US being a disproportionated influence for accurate Chinese depiction in media. My point is China is not something you want challenging US hegemony, China does not view these nations as equals, just pieces on a board to use against the west so as to end unipolarity.
And it doesn't strike you as suspect that, in a novel where Israel and Palestine non-problematically put aside their differences and Cuba embraces capitalism to survive, it's China that sticks to the old ways and continues to fuck with the rest of the world?
Israel and Palestine had a civil war to unify, sacrificing the ultraorthodox for peace. 35% of Cubas employment is by private enterprise, further liberalizing without any foreign nations able to exploit it could turn it into a high income country. Chinas political system is extremely rigid, the older you get the more power you have, it doesn't surprise me that a civil war was needed to take the party down, most you can get with the system staying in place is that a different faction of the politburo takes power.

Also: Taikonauts are not actually chosen for loyalty above all else! They are chosen, first and foremost, for completing the necessary training to operate spacecraft without dying, followed by meeting health requirements to live in space without dying. The pool of potential taikonauts is much smaller than 1.4 billion.
Arguing that Chinese people are fungible, that any Chinese citizen could be chosen to perform whatever job is required of them, is kinda fuckin' racist!

In case you don't believe me, have a citation. Though I hope I don't need a citation for "Chinese astronauts need as much training as American ones"...
You sent me an article which sourced their information from a news organization founded by the Chinese Communist Party.

You say you liked WWZ for being openly critical of the PRC.
I pointed out that that's a horribly low bar; it applies even if the media in question is telling obvious lies and advancing openly racist causes.

You deserve better than World War Z. You deserve stories that are critical of the PRC and also accurate, stories which criticize it for the things it actually does and not shit the author heard from Glen Beck (or I guess Alex Jones, these days).
Raise your standards.
There are better ones out there I know that for sure, I just wanted to share that I thought it was neat when I first read it encased in a fictional story. Ok this "it applies even if the media in question is telling obvious lies and advancing openly racist causes." is way too harsh for Brooks, the guy wrote 'Minecraft: The Novel' I don't think he was trying to advance anything of the sort or telling any intentional lies.
 
Also what is it with the hatred of religion, everytime its mentioned its either evil or crazy, the author mentioned the 'christian states' and we're already meant to infer from that that its a racist, fascist and sexist nation. I've met my fair share of Christian fundamentalists, a LOT of them are good people, they don't force their religion onto them and I'm sure if some of them were in the apocalypse they would spend their time helping people. Maybe you can say that from the name that the word Christian at the start signifies them forcing the religion onto others but there are places identifying themselves as christian states that are good place to live, Norway, Denmark and lichtenstein for example, hell the largest party in Germany is called the Christian Democratic Union!
This isn't a personal indictment, but it's painfully obvious that you're not familiar with how Christian nationalists operate in America. Anyone in America who identifies themselves as a Christian nationalist, or advocates for a Christian state, is racist, fascist, and sexist. The Christian nationalists just elected Donald Trump and earlier in the year they published a manifesto titled "Project 2025" which (summarized) calls for abolishing democracy and rolling back every significant gain for the rights of everyone who isn't a white Christian - specifically Protestant - cis male of the past century.

Even in the straight text of the book - as opposed to the interpretation that veteranmortal is running with - the overtly Christian state (Russia) is a fascist hellhole straight out of a Margaret Atwood novel. Suggesting that the American Christian nationalists act like American Christian nationalists isn't a leap. Of course it'd be a fascist hellscape, they're Christian nationalists. Of course the narrator actively calls them out for being evil and crazy, she's a gay non-Christian woman.
 
There were also a surprising number of stories where China being more magical than the West was just taken for granted. I can remember two separate cartoons from my childhood about a struggle between the good-guy team and the bad-guy team to control a set of magical Chinese artifacts, and while that's not a lot, I'm pretty sure there are other examples I don't remember (which probably don't fit that narrow description as well as Xiaolin Showdown or Jackie Chan Adventures).
I do feel it's a little unfair to mention Jackie Chan Adventures in an essay on 2000-era Sinophobia, given that the core cast of protagonists is a Chinese-American family who are cast in a consistently heroic light and there's no particular indication that the Chinese government or ethnicities are in any way 'bad.'

It does sort of exoticize China from a certain point of view by presenting magic and mysticism as being effective and thriving in the Far East and not so much anywhere else, but I don't think it fits so well into the narrative of "we see China as an enemy." Not unless the show is presented as a deliberate attempt to counterbalance that cultural trend, the way that Gene Roddenberry's deliberate inclusion of a black woman and a Russian junior officer on the bridge of the Enterprise was a deliberate attempt to push back against the prejudices of the 1960s.
 
Though its likely above the paygrade of a cartoon in the first place and almost certainly yeah made with late 90s to 200s era kinda paternalistic good intentions there's probably a good argument about how such 'positive' stereotypes ultimately don't address a lot of the root of Sinophobia, no more than the model minority economic utility building America stuff does with any immigrant community when that kinda provides an implicit follow-up of "go ahead and wail on them when your life sucks and the economic vibes are bad". Chinese people getting to show off interesting mythology and cultural traditions and starting to actually own that instead of some 50s hollywood exec getting a white guy in yellowface to do complete fabrications is neat, but I don't think it does, or maybe even should be doing, the critical work of fighting off the Otherizing racialization of Chinese people and Asians in general as subtly mystical and cunningly sly and fundamentally alien to red-blooded yanks.
 
I 100% agree with the overall issues with anglosphere, and american in particular, sinophobia but I feel compelled to point out that both Sholin Showdown and Jackie Chan Adventures had enormas input from native chinese and chinese americans at basically every point in development. Along with being part of a much broader USA genre of kids urban fantasy that draws influence from all over the world including europe, native america, africa and homegrown myths like UFOs and the Men in Black.

There are definately better examples to point to of the pervasive sinophobia in american media. Both in general and the early 00s when the book was written and published.
 
I do feel it's a little unfair to mention Jackie Chan Adventures in an essay on 2000-era Sinophobia, given that the core cast of protagonists is a Chinese-American family who are cast in a consistently heroic light and there's no particular indication that the Chinese government or ethnicities are in any way 'bad.'

It does sort of exoticize China from a certain point of view by presenting magic and mysticism as being effective and thriving in the Far East and not so much anywhere else, but I don't think it fits so well into the narrative of "we see China as an enemy." Not unless the show is presented as a deliberate attempt to counterbalance that cultural trend, the way that Gene Roddenberry's deliberate inclusion of a black woman and a Russian junior officer on the bridge of the Enterprise was a deliberate attempt to push back against the prejudices of the 1960s.
I'll grant that cartoons which present China in an exotic yet positive light aren't the same kind of thing as the sinophobia I was talking about earlier. I was just trying to be thorough when thinking about what I would have heard about China in 2005.
 
massacres are mentioned very regularly
I really only remember the Let's Read mentioning one massacre, the massacre of the Lakota, which is something the original text already implied but didn't elaborate on.

and corporations (even though at LEAST 3/4s would be destroyed with the east coast overrun) still control America. The book regularly mentions that the US shifted to left-wing policies both to combat the infected through a pseudo-command economy, and as a reaction to the corporate greed which is perceived to have caused the great panic (also didn't help that the incumbent was probably republican). However this is all ignored by decrying the US as resorting to fascist industrial techniques to produce enough weapons to fight the horde,
The original book does portray its USAmerican survivor state as taking a leftward economic turn, yes. But it also portrayed its USA as being rather absurdly obsessed with property rights, squatters, ownership of money, etc. Which really does establish this as a capitalist economy with state intervention rather than a pseudo-communist economy - and all veteranMortal really did was show how that can describe the economy of a fascist state just as well as a Social Democrat one. Combine that with the other things the Let's Read establishes about the USA, and the fascist option becomes a better explanation than the leftist one.

The special forces are a continued source of evil in the story, assassinations, exterminations are all shoved under delta forces ever expanding crime list.
Just like in real life. :V

But this is 100% something I will defend veteranMortal on. As she pointed out; if the Alpha Teams really had just been killing zombies then there would be no need to seal the records of their activities, because nobody would object to that and the zombies can't read the records to come for revenge or gain some sort of tactical advantage. So the fact that they are sealed says that they were doing things other than zombie slaying, things that people would object to if learned about.

The US has a hell of a lot of checks and balances within the military, which is why there hasn't been a coup plot from military since 1783, almost always coming from political rivals or organizations separate from the military. They may have used people FROM the military, the big business plot comes to mind, but by the time that has happened they have left the government and are disgruntled veterans.
Something not having happened in the past does not mean its impossible.

More importantly, a large part of this Let's Read is poking holes in the illogical nonsense of the WWZ book. The book's stated reasons for the loss at Yonkers is illogical nonsense, so veteranMortal needed to come up with an alternate explanation for why things went so wrong there. One of the other things she noticed about this book is how the pre-war civilian government is consistently demonized while the military is lionized-if-flawed. She also noticed how they frame the President as a puppet figure for the rest of the government. She also noticed how somebody had essentially drugged and usurped the Vice-President.

A coup which was too successful in undermining the previous government and caused a general collapse in the east was a logical explanation for all of that.

Survival is way easier in this fic, suddenly worker militias are able to take huge amounts of land which the US military could not defend, and can eke out rebel states throughout the apocalypse. In some ways it offers a richer world, but it makes the zombies less than useless in their effort to collapse civilization,
This is something I would consider a legtiimate critique of the Let's Read; that it downplays the threat of the zombie apocalypse too much in comparison to the book, and mostly does so with completely original worldbuilding rather than through reinterpretation of the original text. I still think it's defensible though: poking holes in the original book's focus on continuity-of-government requires that you have new governments/states form for contrast after all.

Plus, let's be real here; if you use even a little bit of logic it is extremely obvious that the type of slow zombies that WWZ uses just aren't a real threat on the scale the book uses them. Not without authorial fiat, anyway.

As for the favouring of communist governments, well... read two sections down.

there was no reason to employ the Redeker plan and there was no reason to abandon all the rich land east of the Rockies. From the viewpoint of a power-hungry military dictatorship, it's not rational to retreat and leave your subjects that you wish to grow fat on to die, the hard part was done they already got their man in power but suddenly whichever 5 star general in charge had a stroke and decided Honolulu was nice this time of year.
Well yes, because the Redeker plan is a stupid plan, and a big part of this Let's Read is pointing that out by stripping the justifications away. But also, veteranMortal did justify why the USA executed the Redeker plan despite its flaws; they didn't, they just claimed to because they'd already lost control over everything east of the Rockies anyway due to their military fuck up and saying it was All Part Of The Plan made themselves seem less incompetent.

Which brings me to my next point, this fic is very generous to socialist and communist governments, to the point that its pretty much set in stone that whichever developed nation comes up next is the one to turn red.
*shrug* Everyone has their political/ideological biases, and veteranMortal does not hide hers. The communism favouritism is something that can be critiqued I'm sure, but I don't take any issue with it. Kinda just comes back to the "complaining about whether the Let's Read aligns with your taste or not" issue.

German cities in the south and the great lakes for example, both are bastions of moral freedoms which we know wasn't really how they operated in the real world.
Point of order: I'm 99% sure that the south German government mentioned in the Let's Read is not a communist nation, or particularly moral one. I'm pretty sure veteranMortal establishes it as a military dictatorship, even a fascist-y one attempting to annex the same parts of Czechia that Nazi Germany did; it's just one that's not descended from the pre-war German government which institituted Redeker.

This is my complaint about the authors writing style, there should be diversity in socialist thought, the vast majority are completely blameless in the story and there should by some Stalinism, social democracy and might as well sprinkle in some posadism too. If the story is about the loss of the ideals of liberty, than extend that to every political spectrum, the nations that survive shouldn't all be fascist, and the communists shouldn't be completely blameless too, but maybe that's just the writing POV talking.
See my previous comment about the communism bias, but I do think you might be a little harsh here. The communist states are not portrayed all-positively, and not all liberal/capitalist states are portrayed negatively - just the ones which instituted the Redeker plan.

Also what is it with the hatred of religion, everytime its mentioned its either evil or crazy, the author mentioned the 'christian states' and we're already meant to infer from that that its a racist, fascist and sexist nation. I've met my fair share of Christian fundamentalists, a LOT of them are good people, they don't force their religion onto them and I'm sure if some of them were in the apocalypse they would spend their time helping people. Maybe you can say that from the name that the word Christian at the start signifies them forcing the religion onto others but there are places identifying themselves as christian states that are good place to live, Norway, Denmark and lichtenstein for example, hell the largest party in Germany is called the Christian Democratic Union!
I mean, religion basically only comes up in a negative context in the original novel too. Russia, ghoul cults. All veteranMortal really did was add another theo-fascist country, based on a very real theo-fascist movement.

My argument was that the PRC are just right in terms of competency with certain exceptions.
All veteranMortal really did was push back against the book's sinophobia. If that leaves the Let's Read's version of the PRC without much in the way of flaws, then perhaps the original book shouldn't have relied so heavily on Falun Gong conspiracy theories, fearmongering about Chinese immigrants/tourists, and Tom Clancy-esque tech-thriller nonense.
 
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Plus, let's be real here; if you use even a little bit of logic it is extremely obvious that the type of slow zombies that WWZ uses just aren't a real threat on the scale the book uses them. Not without authorial fiat, anyway.
Also, in the (Non-canon to the Lets Read,) Survival Guide, which *is* Canon to the actual WWZ Book, it outlines a Dozen different strategies a purely civilian force can be expected to undertake in order to take and clear large portions of territory via abusing the shit outta the fact Zeke are Dumb As Shit.

Shit, the ZSG even outlines theoreticals for *clearing cities*, but notes that such operations would almost certainly be undertaken alongside Government Forces like the Military and Remnant Police.


It is, actually, *really* feasible for moderately small groups of a few hundred to a couple thousand to successfully hold regions of territory with solid standards of safety, anywhere from "You are About as likely to step on a landmine as you are see a Zeke" to something close to Medieval times in terms of "How Likely One Is To Die Terribly Outside Towns".
 
Max Brooks representation of China is mostly accurate I'm sorry to say, the government bolted people into their own apartments when COVID happened without letting them get groceries or extra food first, and the cover-up is very accurate to a certain degree though I think PUBLIC execution of Shetou is a bit of an exaggeration.
This is literally proven false in June 2020 .

So let's repeat

Brooks argument was that China didn't do anything.
You just shown that police BOLTED people inside to stop people from breaking quarantine, the literal opposite.

China lockdown and etc stopped the outbreak in Wuhan and left them Covid "free" in 2020. While it's most likely that undetected subsymptomatic clusters of covid remained, everytime it did trip the system, massive lockdown and testing of everyone. The precise opposite of what Brooks said


Organ trade? Zilch.

Shetou? This isn't 1980s. Chinese people literally just tried taking plane tickets/visas overseas. Guess who stopped that in Mar 2020? Chinese government ....

Coverup? COVID 19 is called COVID 19 for one reason. Notification on Wuhan CDC on Dec 31/12/2019, 1 day after they gotten the notification results as shown by AI Fen. There was friction, problems with detection and execution and etc, but everything was normal when compared to other countries, including US. Hell, even Ai Fen actions and the reactions by administrators was repeated in US by a female researcher who repurposed flu samples to show covid was spreading in California. Albeit, US action a bit more legally serious since Ai Fen doesn't have HIPAA .


Covid literally showed that Brooks depiction of China pandemic response doesn't exist. This isnt 2002 and Guangzhou, even though Hu and Xi vaunted reporting system was shown to be an utter failure.

China is still very much superstitious, and while it has changed in recent years, back when World War Z was written I think it would have been very much possible that Chinese citizens believed there to be a cure in the west, during COVID rich Chinese were traveling to western nations for better healthcare.
You mean fleeing a potential outbreak.... then returning back to China because worse in USA.


The mass exodus is also a very likely prospect, especially through smuggling, there were even cases of parents leaving children in the Wuhan airport to leave the province, such is the will to flee in that situation.
? Citation??? Because they just took airplanes.

Why I think it is different these years is because China started ramping up nationalist propaganda about their technological advancement being better than the west, which isn't true, you may heard of Chinese EVs catching fire or Companies hiring cosplayers to pretend to be real robots.
You mean Elon Musk?
Meanwhile in real life China shut down viral transmission in China, although one should note that because Taiwan internet noted Wuhan notification on 31/12/2019, you know, the public notification you insisted shouldnt exist because of a cover-up, Taiwan enjoyed an uninterrupted year of non transmission.



A really weird problem is the author insistence that the 'Redeker plan' was only instituted by first world countries intent on abandoning its civilians to the zombie horde, but the 'Bristol plan' helped everyone without Redeker's drawbacks. The book (and to the lesser extent) the movie is supposed to be about sacrifice and rebuilding, Redeker is supposed to symbolize the ultimate sacrifice to save humanity, without it its just the turner diaries written by a Proud Boy.
Because As pointed out just on this page, Redeker doesn't work? It turns out making more zombies is a bad idea.


It's crazy talking about COVID and Taiwan because despite Taiwan health minister protests, the reason why Taiwan acted so fast .... Was because Wuhan was open and public about covid. There was no Guangzhou style coverup. A delay, maybe even burying head in sand between. Jan 10-Jan 17 by various officials? Sure. But it wasnt unique. We saw the same happen with Taiwan when their first outbreak occurred, with the ROC military discussing how friction/interference helped cause the outbreak in base.



Sorry for my wording, but I was trying to reference the wests misunderstanding of party politics to the point where they thought of the CCP as this monolithic organization instead of the diverse political battleground that it is. so we drew a lot more comparisons to North Korea then we would have liked. Also it is a superstitious place, state sponsored industrialization meant we still kept many peasant traditions, Chinese medicine stores still exist both on the mainland and Taiwan, we didn't 'naturally modernize' so large portions of our population were still uneducated and resorted to traditional herbal remedies sometimes (rural urban divide didn't help much). Much like how in Russia the orthodoxy still maintained power, perhaps emerging stronger than before after the Soviet ban on religion went away.
I'm sorry, anyone who writes about TCM popularity while being ignorant of why Mao Endorsed TCM due to Western sanctions while rationing out Western meds to elites is ignorant of Chinese history.
sciencebasedmedicine.org

In the tradition of Chairman Mao, traditional Chinese medicine gets a new boost by the Chinese government

Despite a lack of evidence for its efficacy and safety, traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) has made major inroads into US medical centers, both academic and community. I've told the story of how Chair


Just how on earth are you leery of China and ignores how TCM promotion was a deliberate strategy by Mao intended to sidestep a shortage of medicine in China ???


You even acknowledged the elite divide, by pointing out how "urbanities",the richer portion of Chinese will use Western meds preferentially.



Suffice to say it's pretty clear WHY you think Brooks portrayal is accurate.
 
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This isn't a personal indictment, but it's painfully obvious that you're not familiar with how Christian nationalists operate in America. Anyone in America who identifies themselves as a Christian nationalist, or advocates for a Christian state, is racist, fascist, and sexist. The Christian nationalists just elected Donald Trump and earlier in the year they published a manifesto titled "Project 2025" which (summarized) calls for abolishing democracy and rolling back every significant gain for the rights of everyone who isn't a white Christian - specifically Protestant - cis male of the past century.

Even in the straight text of the book - as opposed to the interpretation that veteranmortal is running with - the overtly Christian state (Russia) is a fascist hellhole straight out of a Margaret Atwood novel. Suggesting that the American Christian nationalists act like American Christian nationalists isn't a leap. Of course it'd be a fascist hellscape, they're Christian nationalists. Of course the narrator actively calls them out for being evil and crazy, she's a gay non-Christian woman.

I mean, religion basically only comes up in a negative context in the original novel too. Russia, ghoul cults. All veteranMortal really did was add another theo-fascist country, based on a very real theo-fascist movement.

I've read Project 2025, its a horrible plan that would turn America into a dictatorship, I've also read Agenda 47, I think that to a lesser extent would also centralize American bureaucracy around the executive. But I do think both plans are focused on too much by the media to explain the rights general views on policy, if you read it out to evangelists you wouldn't get a lot of yes's from the vast majority of the population. I think if you really gave christians the opportunity to create a nation, in the greater amount of cases you wouldn't get Nick Fuentes style clerical fascism, but a GOP style decentralized democracy. I understand that its in fashion to demonize christians as fascists but the vast majority of them care as much about democracy as you and me, or enough of one that it wouldn't end up as a 'handmaids tale' for the nation.

I just want to mention that in the book the 'Fundies' were a miniscule portion of the population, and Russia is on the verge of becoming a theocracy itself which brings me into my next point. VeteranMortal downplays the influence of the Holy Russian Church and strengthens the USSR restorationists by a huge amount, with its support mainly dwelling on the elderly while the Holy Church directly commands militias in Ukraine.

The original book does portray its USAmerican survivor state as taking a leftward economic turn, yes. But it also portrayed its USA as being rather absurdly obsessed with property rights, squatters, ownership of money, etc. Which really does establish this as a capitalist economy with state intervention rather than a pseudo-communist economy - and all veteranMortal really did was show how that can describe the economy of a fascist state just as well as a Social Democrat one. Combine that with the other things the Let's Read establishes about the USA, and the fascist option becomes a better explanation than the leftist one.

This is all done away with nationalization of industry and redistribution of housing and property. Whoever says this describes a fascist economy doesn't understand what a fascist economy is, to rely on corporations and private landowners this much would make it a fascist state, but aggravating the elite by taking away their land and property identifies it as a transitioning collectivist society.

Well yes, because the Redeker plan is a stupid plan, and a big part of this Let's Read is pointing that out by stripping the justifications away. But also, veteranMortal did justify why the USA executed the Redeker plan despite its flaws; they didn't, they just claimed to because they'd already lost control over everything east of the Rockies anyway due to their military fuck up and saying it was All Part Of The Plan made themselves seem less incompetent.
So they just decided not to retake the east coast while these new nations didn't exist yet?? When most military units were mauled and wouldn't have been able to defend their fledgling statelets???

Point of order: I'm 99% sure that the south German government mentioned in the Let's Read is not a communist nation, or particularly moral one. I'm pretty sure veteranMortal establishes it as a military dictatorship, even a fascist-y one attempting to annex the same parts of Czechia that Nazi Germany did; it's just one that's not descended from the pre-war German government which institituted Redeker.
Sorry I thought they were referring to the Bavarian Socialist Republic

This is literally proven false in June 2020 .

So let's repeat

Brooks argument was that China didn't do anything.
You just shown that police BOLTED people inside to stop people from breaking quarantine, the literal opposite.

China massacred people in the story, deploying state security for every outbreak, I don't understand where you got that from brooks.

Organ trade? Zilch.

Shetou? This isn't 1980s. Chinese people literally just tried taking plane tickets/visas overseas. Guess who stopped that in Mar 2020? Chinese government ....

Coverup? COVID 19 is called COVID 19 for one reason. Notification on Wuhan CDC on Dec 31/12/2019, 1 day after they gotten the notification results as shown by AI Fen. There was friction, problems with detection and execution and etc, but everything was normal when compared to other countries, including US. Hell, even Ai Fen actions and the reactions by administrators was repeated in US by a female researcher who repurposed flu samples to show covid was spreading in California. Albeit, US action a bit more legally serious since Ai Fen doesn't have HIPAA .
The organ trade was real, the fact that you don't recognise the sacrifice the dissidents made to stand up to their government is not only ignorant, its insulting to my people. Shetou I thought was a bit overzealous but could be possible back in the early 2000s for the poor people, especially after lockdowns for the virus. Also there was a huge conspiracy theory on DouYuan encouraged by the government that the Virus came from Fort Bragg.
? Citation??? Because they just took airplanes.

Also I understand the Mao endorsed traditional chinese medicine, doesn't explain why is still popular in Taiwan too, and I don't understand wheat Mao has to do with the keeping of peasant traditions, Chinese culture is not just acupuncture as much as the west like to believe, and what the cultural revolution wanted to achieve.
 
I've read Project 2025, its a horrible plan that would turn America into a dictatorship, I've also read Agenda 47, I think that to a lesser extent would also centralize American bureaucracy around the executive. But I do think both plans are focused on too much by the media to explain the rights general views on policy, if you read it out to evangelists you wouldn't get a lot of yes's from the vast majority of the population. I think if you really gave christians the opportunity to create a nation, in the greater amount of cases you wouldn't get Nick Fuentes style clerical fascism, but a GOP style decentralized democracy. I understand that its in fashion to demonize christians as fascists but the vast majority of them care as much about democracy as you and me, or enough of one that it wouldn't end up as a 'handmaids tale' for the nation.
Fun fact. Most of the stuff such as cut Medicaid via block grants, implant officials to root out deep state or censorship was already started in 2020.

China massacred people in the story, deploying state security for every outbreak, I don't understand where you got that from brooks.


The organ trade was real, the fact that you don't recognise the sacrifice the dissidents made to stand up to their government is not only ignorant, its insulting to my people. Shetou I thought was a bit overzealous but could be possible back in the early 2000s for the poor people, especially after lockdowns for the virus. Also there was a huge conspiracy theory on DouYuan encouraged by the government that the Virus came from Fort Bragg.

Are we reading the same stories or the same articles ?

You took isolated examples such as one case where parent left children .. to support the argument of a mass exodus via SMUGGLING. This when that VERY same example actually supported what I said, people simply took aircraft to leave china.

Ditto to the early lockdown.

You then made assertions about Brooks China story that... Simply isn't there? The FIRST interview with said doctor? Went out, saw a zombie who attacked others, then his friend in the government gave him a hint to run away and thus he warned his daughter to do so. What force murder happened here?

Shetou? Nope.

Brooks does say the PLA thought it's numbers were limitless but just WHERE in brooks story does it correspond to your assertion?


As for the organ trade.... I take the WHO and other reputable organisations take on it. There is an illicit organ trade, ahem, teen selling kidney to buy iPhone news, but the scale of it is comparable to say that of the Americas. Despite what you think, the sale of immunosuppressants and the infrastructure behind organ transplant don't belie that argument .

Now, if the story was INDIA, that would have been true, or rather true in the 2000s timeframe of Brooks writing the story.

time.com

India's Black Market Organ Scandal

Shocked but not surprised. That might be the best way to sum up India's reaction to the revelation this week that a black market organ...

Or Nepal which still sells kidneys illegally today.

The closest you can come to this is China remains a hotspot for transplant tourism, due to the problematic nature of prisoner donation. Nevertheless, Falun Gong propaganda is just.... Fake news.
People tend to conflate Guttman medically questionable assertions about prisoners of conscience organ harvesting with the actual legitimate problem of potential coercion of prisoners for donation. The first is just impossible. The 2nd, which relies on death row inmates, was done and is STILL a ethically dubious question due to how impossible it is to establish real consent from a prisoner.

Also I understand the Mao endorsed traditional chinese medicine, doesn't explain why is still popular in Taiwan too, and I don't understand wheat Mao has to do with the keeping of peasant traditions, Chinese culture is not just acupuncture as much as the west like to believe, and what the cultural revolution wanted to achieve.
1. The rise in use of TCM in Taiwanese at 20% is actually less than in China or US.

The trends of utilization in traditional Chinese medicine in Taiwan from 2000 to 2010: A population-based study - PMC

There is no study exploring the trend of utilization in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) from 2000 to 2010. The objective of this study was to investigate the trends of TCM utilization among 3 cross-sectional cohorts of 2000, 2005, and 2010. This ...
I'm not sure you can say it's super popular in Taiwan when US reports usage at 40%

Traditional Chinese Medicine Use and Health in Community-Dwelling Chinese-American Older Adults in Chicago - PMC

Chinese people have practiced traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) for thousands of years, but there is a paucity of research regarding TCM use in Chinese older adult immigrants in the United States. This study aims to provide an overall estimate of ...

Granted, NHI visit is verifiable data whereas US relies more on surveys and etc to get it's usage data but STILL.


2. You do know the history of TCM in Taiwan under Japan rule and then Subsequent Chiang ?

Yeah. Same reasons as Mao essentially, minus the need to ration because Taiwan not under US sanctions .
 
Did you sign up solely to troll this thread someone24?
Click their username to go to their profile, then click the Postings button, then scroll down. Not only did Someone24 join two Junes ago, they posted in other threats starting last July.

That said, 77% of their posts are part of this one argument, and the other three posts are just commentary-free votes in quest threads. They didn't join to "troll this thread," but it doesn't seem like they care about any other thread as much as this one.
 
So they just decided not to retake the east coast while these new nations didn't exist yet?? When most military units were mauled and wouldn't have been able to defend their fledgling statelets???
No, they didn't retake the east coast before the new nations emerged because they were literally unable to. Losing the east coast meant they lost a lot of soldiers, most of their industry & logistics, etc... and by the time they managed to rebuild & reorganize themselves well enough to retake the east, the Let's Read establishes that new nations had already emerged. A lot of this is stuff the original book explained.
 
I think if you really gave christians the opportunity to create a nation, in the greater amount of cases you wouldn't get Nick Fuentes style clerical fascism, but a GOP style decentralized democracy. I understand that its in fashion to demonize christians as fascists but the vast majority of them care as much about democracy as you and me, or enough of one that it wouldn't end up as a 'handmaids tale' for the nation.

There's a massive difference between Christians and Christian Nationalism in the context of the US. Christianity is a religion of diverse poltical views, which can justify both right-wing and left-wing stances, though since the rise of the Religious Right it's been a tool of the right-wing. Christian Nationalism grew out of the Religious Right, and seeks to establish America not as a place where Christians live (a Christian nation) but a near theocratic and explicitly Evangelical Protestant state that is centered on extremely literal reading of the Bible and a very authoritarian state apparatus to enforce said reading. No LGBTQ+ rights (including the right to live in many cases), women are marginalized to making babies and dinner, non-believers are persecuted, all underneath a government that is strong enough to enforce all of this with extreme prejudice. Even if voting is preserved for men, I don't think you can call the state they hope to set up as anything but clerical fascism.

Note that the description above isn't describing all Christians as inherently fascist, but is instead about a political movement of fascists that happen to cloak themselves in the Bible. That's the difference that's being described when people talk about Christian Nationalism.

Also, lol @ republicans wanting anything near a "decentralized democracy." They may say they hate the government, but that's only when it isn't doing what they want. Don't fall for that "small government" propaganda they push.
 
I've read Project 2025, its a horrible plan that would turn America into a dictatorship, I've also read Agenda 47, I think that to a lesser extent would also centralize American bureaucracy around the executive. But I do think both plans are focused on too much by the media to explain the rights general views on policy, if you read it out to evangelists you wouldn't get a lot of yes's from the vast majority of the population. I think if you really gave christians the opportunity to create a nation, in the greater amount of cases you wouldn't get Nick Fuentes style clerical fascism, but a GOP style decentralized democracy. I understand that its in fashion to demonize christians as fascists but the vast majority of them care as much about democracy as you and me, or enough of one that it wouldn't end up as a 'handmaids tale' for the nation.

The activist 'conservative' voters will happily tell you Project 2025 doesn't exist. The liberal media made it up to scare people.

If you press them on that, they'll say it exists, but President Trump doesn't agree with it. If you show them a video of Trump at a rally saying he plans to carry out one of the goals, they'll tell you the video was faked or he's just saying that to make liberals upset.

And when he carries out any of these policies they will have always been in favor of them.
 
Kind of lost this into my unread, but I'm finishing the last part off now. Great stuff on vet's part, but I have to say, I finished the Battle of Hope and man does Max Brooks fetishization of light infantry. Like sure, oh, maintaining an armorer unit would be expensive, but you know what any tank is? Fucking immune to zombies! Ye old M113 might as well a giant castle as far as any swarm is concerned. Like about the only thing that would make the moronic 'let the ghouls encircle us' plan work would be access to APCs so any random unit could just pick up and drive away. Like sure, if cannons and artillery don't work because of magic, take out the turret of an M1 and put a goddamn siege tower there!

For a genre built on creative improvised weapons WWZ is sure anal about only the most boring solutions working.
 
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