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Let's Read: Warhammer Fantasy: End Times

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Why would anyone think that allowing Nagash's ressurection would be good idea?

If Teclis thought he could have stopped this he certainly should have done so.
Not just because it is the right thing, but because it is a terrible time for the Order faction to have Nagash against them, while Chaos demands full attention.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Why would anyone think that allowing Nagash's ressurection would be good idea?

If Teclis thought he could have stopped this he certainly should have done so.
Not just because it is the right thing, but because it is a terrible time for the Order faction to have Nagash against them, while Chaos demands full attention.
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He probably bet that Nagash wouldn't want the world to be destroyed and would allie with them. Nagash would definitely oppose Choas, but the allying part was very much up in the air. Giving Shyish to someone else would have been a smarter decision.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Why would anyone think that allowing Nagash's ressurection would be good idea?

If Teclis thought he could have stopped this he certainly should have done so.
Not just because it is the right thing, but because it is a terrible time for the Order faction to have Nagash against them, while Chaos demands full attention.
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If you read between the lines during Teclis and Morathi's conversation you can see why, or at least why Teclis did it.

Well, I think I have an insight into a spoiler for something in the future, so it's obvious to me but not to everyone. Nagash wanted to ascend to godhood so he could face the Chaos Gods. Teclis thinks that there is absolutely no hope unless he has Godlike allies.

Teclis' goal is to create Gods that can face off against Chaos, and Nagash is one of them, but he doesn't want him to get there too fast because the remaining Gods aren't ready yet. So he fed Aliathra to him to keep him occupied.
 
K von Carstein said:
He probably bet that Nagash wouldn't want the world to be destroyed and would allie with them. Nagash would definitely oppose Choas, but the allying part was very much up in the air. Giving Shyish to someone else would have been a smarter decision.
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The idea of allying with Nagash seems quite insane.

The guy is incredibly egomanic, he would not hesitate to betray people and believe in his own brilliance and power to win anyway.
 
Artemis1992 said:
The idea of allying with Nagash seems quite insane.

The guy is incredibly egomanic, he would not hesitate to betray people and believe in his own brilliance and power to win anyway.
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Yep, that's exactly my point. But when you're willing to ally with fricking Malekith (and that's basically the same thing as Israel asking Adolf Eichmann to be their prime minister), I guess that Nagash doesn't look that bad in comparison…
 
Artemis1992 said:
The idea of allying with Nagash seems quite insane.

The guy is incredibly egomanic, he would not hesitate to betray people and believe in his own brilliance and power to win anyway.
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Remember what Teclis said in the beginning?
Codex said:
"'I will weep for your daughter later, brother. For now, it is the fate of our entire race that concerns me, as it should concern you. Unless we can find a way to cheat fate, the Asur will no longer be anything other than a memory. I will see the world itself unmade before I allow that to happen.
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He was being very literal. He will see the world unmade before he allows the Asur to become a memory.
 
FlyingScanian said:
That would have required skill and respect. Does it seem to you like GW or their hired writers has any of that?
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It is not the writer's fault they are barely paid a living wage and at the whim of corporate fiat. Especially the end times. Don't blame the writers, GW deliberately hires for 'enthusiasm' as code to get people they don't have to pay a proper salary.
 
Settra is not much better than Nagash, let's not kid ourselves. He has the same desires as Nagash, but instead of undead slavery he wants living beings to be enslaved under him.

I have my issues with the whole thing, but Teclis wanted power, and there is no Shyish mage in all of the Warhammer World stronger than Nagash. He wanted power, he got power.
 
Settra steps over the low bar of "Better than Nagash" by virtue of spending most of his time hitting branches of his sprawling extended family tree trying to make them stop feuding with each other or taking revenge on Imperials/Bretonnians/Tileans who stole some cool stuff from a Nehekaran tomb, IIRC in his unlife he isn't really out there waging aggressive wars of conquest against everyone who shares a border with Nehekara like he did when he was alive.

Edit:
This is a low, low, LOW bar we're talking about, mind. A "Stormvermin in Under Altdorf are using it to do pull-ups" bar.
 
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Wade Garrett said:
Settra steps over the low bar of "Better than Nagash" by virtue of spending most of his time hitting branches of his sprawling extended family tree trying to make them stop feuding with each other or taking revenge on Imperials/Bretonnians/Tileans who stole some cool stuff from a Nehekaran tomb, IIRC in his unlife he isn't really out there waging aggressive wars of conquest against everyone who shares a border with Nehekara like he did when he was alive.

Edit:
This is a low, low, LOW bar we're talking about, mind. A "Stormvermin in Under Altdorf are using it to do pull-ups" bar.
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The reason he isn't waging aggressive wars is because he doesn't have the power to do it. At the end of the Nehekharan Timeline in the 8th Edition Tomb Kings book, it says the Nehekharans are preparing for world conquest again. End Times ignores it of course, but Settra would 100% wage aggressive wars if he could. Give him enough power and he'd do it.

In a sense, the only reason he's any better than Nagash is because he's weaker. If he had Nagash's power he would be just as bad.
 
K von Carstein said:
Are basic undeads actually sentient? Is the soul trapped in the body, or does it go to the Underworld?
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Nehekharan ones have a basic sentience because their process is literally bringing the soul back from the Underworld and binding it either into their own body or into a construct. That's how they animate constructs. Basic Necromancers are nowhere near Nagash's level and they're so far removed from Nehekharan practices that they can barely conjure that level of ability. The skill level and power of the Necromancer and the purpose behind it can alter any number of variables.

For Nagash personally? It's whatever he wants. If he wants an Undead to be more powerful or have a greater intelligence and not require constant management, then he can keep their sentience but have them bound to him. If he so desires he can make them a Liche like Arkhan.
 
MiracleGrow said:
To be quite frank, I really like Settra cause he is extremely funny. I have no idea how to explain it. But the dude just makes me crack the fuck up when I'm thinking about him.

Like always I have to post this.

steamcommunity.com

Steam Workshop::A More Very Loreful Settra

steamcommunity.com steamcommunity.com
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He is very funny, but I also think that people sometimes forget that behind the goofiness he's actually a pretty horrible guy.

You know who was also goofy until the End Times came over?
End Times gave him a new model:
End Times did a lot of bad things. But that model upgrade is at least one good thing.
 
Codex said:
(this was never mentioned in any book that I know of, either End Times original or a Novel thing)
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I've definitely read before that Nagash tried to enforce his will on the Tomb Kings after he resurrected the first time, but they resisted. This presumably was Settra fighting Nagash. (Nagash would then go after his Crown and die to Sigmar)

If you want a specific quote along those lines, I can get it after work.
 
Mopman43 said:
I've definitely read before that Nagash tried to enforce his will on the Tomb Kings after he resurrected the first time, but they resisted. This presumably was Settra fighting Nagash. (Nagash would then go after his Crown and die to Sigmar)

If you want a specific quote along those lines, I can get it after work.
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I mean, I'm pretty sure after he was first resurrected he did try to control Nehekharans. I just don't remember it involving any combat. If you stretch things to allow for it, then I can understand, but it feels like it came out of nowhere because it hasn't really been built up that they fought often.
 
You know what, I stand by what I said. Nagash being resurrected to lead a unified Undead faction that encompasses Slyvania, the Vampire Coast, and the Tomb Kings would have been pretty badass.

I mean shit, Nagash sending a bunch of Vampire Counts to ride into battle against Chaos would have been epic in a "wtf?" way as Order realizes the Undead are on their side against the Everchosen.

I can easily imagine an alternate universe where GW was run competently (and had better writers) where this could have been good.
 
This could have been done right.

Tolkien praised the Norse heroes, who fought knowing that their doom was upon them. "Absolute resistance, perfect because without hope".

A good writer would have made it clear that the world would end. That Chaos was truly unstoppable from the beginning. And then they would have placed all the narrative emphasis on the heroism and folly and last, desperate struggle of the followers of Order, who rage against the dying of the light.

The sandcastle was built upon the beach, and the tide approaches. But telling the story from the perspective of Chaos is inherently uninteresting, because the fated winners of this struggle are not emotionally compelling. Show us Brettonia riding out for one last, grand charge, dying in a glorious battle that no one will live to speak of. Show us Thorgrim striking Grudges from the Book even as hosts of daemons close in all around him. Show us Shallyans, defeated but unbowed, healing even as the city burns around them.

The issue is not that the Bad Guys Win, but that they win in such a profoundly unimpressive and anticlimatic way.
 
Codex said:
I mean, I'm pretty sure after he was first resurrected he did try to control Nehekharans. I just don't remember it involving any combat. If you stretch things to allow for it, then I can understand, but it feels like it came out of nowhere because it hasn't really been built up that they fought often.
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So, what I meant is, for instance, from the timeline in the 8th edition Tomb Kings book:
-40 to 15: Nagash is reborn exactly 1,111 years after he was destroyed. He attempts to force the Tomb Kings to obey his orders, but under Settra's leadership, they force him to retreat back to Nagashizzar.
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So I think it's fair to say there was some sort of fighting there (though, obviously, the End Times is mostly pulling bullshit out of the aether, as is it's wont)
 
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