Let's Play Every Final Fantasy Game In Order Of Release [Now Finished: Final Fantasy Tactics]
- Thread starter Omicron
- Start date
- Let's Play
Two unrelated thoughts:
1) Gotta say, running an amoral mercenary band would've fixed the FFV plot. Why do crystals keep getting shattered even though you win every battle? Well, the nations involved didn't pay Bartz enough, so he left.
2) On Rinomecia theory, I've seen people getting into hysterics about Omi inventing it from first principles, and I get it when you look at the situation with the weight of fandom on your shoulders, but also, like, it's a pretty reasonable speculation?
Ultimecia doesn't have a backstory or personal connection to the main characters. In retrospect, that's simply a flaw in the game, a consequence of deadlines, changing plans, different priorities, whatever. But in the moment, as you play the game and think about the antagonist, well...
The first thing we learn about Ultimecia is that she's from the future, and then we don't learn much at all. If you assume that there should be more to it, guessing she's going to be revealed as someone you already know just makes sense: that would've immediately grounded her in the established conflicts and relationships, given an instant connection to the main characters and amplified drama. It's an obvious move.
From there, pointing at Rinoa is a no-brainer. Much as I like joking about Sophia, Rinoa is the one with the strongest and most narratively important connection to Squall, and she's with the group but separate from it, not one of the SeeDs, singling her out.
And, hey, her being Ultimecia means love triangle with Seifer is back in force!
1) Gotta say, running an amoral mercenary band would've fixed the FFV plot. Why do crystals keep getting shattered even though you win every battle? Well, the nations involved didn't pay Bartz enough, so he left.
2) On Rinomecia theory, I've seen people getting into hysterics about Omi inventing it from first principles, and I get it when you look at the situation with the weight of fandom on your shoulders, but also, like, it's a pretty reasonable speculation?
Ultimecia doesn't have a backstory or personal connection to the main characters. In retrospect, that's simply a flaw in the game, a consequence of deadlines, changing plans, different priorities, whatever. But in the moment, as you play the game and think about the antagonist, well...
The first thing we learn about Ultimecia is that she's from the future, and then we don't learn much at all. If you assume that there should be more to it, guessing she's going to be revealed as someone you already know just makes sense: that would've immediately grounded her in the established conflicts and relationships, given an instant connection to the main characters and amplified drama. It's an obvious move.
From there, pointing at Rinoa is a no-brainer. Much as I like joking about Sophia, Rinoa is the one with the strongest and most narratively important connection to Squall, and she's with the group but separate from it, not one of the SeeDs, singling her out.
And, hey, her being Ultimecia means love triangle with Seifer is back in force!
Thozmp
Gets my kicks above the waistline, Sunshine.
Something I'm kind of wondering, does Sorceress power degrade/weaken when being passed on? Edea had Ultimecia's power but did she get all of it or because Ultimecia was at death's door she just had less power to transfer?
Also, kind of funny to think that Rinoa was using Ultimecia's own power against her.
Also, kind of funny to think that Rinoa was using Ultimecia's own power against her.
somewhatLazy
Serial Procrastinator
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- lurking
To be fair, "Ellone is a potential sorceress" is a far more reasonable assumption than "Ellone is an entirely new and unexplained breed of female magic user." XD
- Location
- USA
I thought Ellone is a potential Sorceress; why else would Adel kidnap her and cause Laguna to abandon his wife and unborn kid gather up his old trio and head into Esthar?
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
but quistis was the card game king so surely that makes her the final boss, yes?
As the game already demonstrated, what's a head of state to a sorceress?but quistis was the card game king so surely that makes her the final boss, yes?
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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- The Destination of Fate
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- She/Her
The stable time loop thing makes me wonder: Surely Squall realizes what he's setting in motion? It's not just Ultimecia's fate that's being set in motion/finished as he explains this, but also his own.
By telling Edea who he is, what she will set in motion, he is going to make himself and his friends suffer. Ellone will abandon him. In joining Balamb Garden and learning to Junction GFs, his memories will become cloudy. He'll become the edgy loner who presents a stoic front but who is ultimately super vulnerable on the inside and doesn't want to be alone. He and his friends save Rinoa will become child soldiers.
He must be aware, right, on at least some level?
But regardless, he explains it stoically, and salutes his Matron. The serious and professional soldier, even then. Determined. Even though it caused him so much pain that he was once trying to pretend to himself that everything was fine, now he can process it openly: he'll be alright, because he's not alone anymore.
...Remember this?
Honestly, there's still too much time travel nonsense, but I prefer that as the scene's takeaway. It places more emphasis on the scene's emotional aspect.
By telling Edea who he is, what she will set in motion, he is going to make himself and his friends suffer. Ellone will abandon him. In joining Balamb Garden and learning to Junction GFs, his memories will become cloudy. He'll become the edgy loner who presents a stoic front but who is ultimately super vulnerable on the inside and doesn't want to be alone. He and his friends save Rinoa will become child soldiers.
He must be aware, right, on at least some level?
But regardless, he explains it stoically, and salutes his Matron. The serious and professional soldier, even then. Determined. Even though it caused him so much pain that he was once trying to pretend to himself that everything was fine, now he can process it openly: he'll be alright, because he's not alone anymore.
...Remember this?
Tragedy to others... Edea realized that Squall would effectively be causing his own pain. But she still urged him to fight to the end. Perhaps she saw, in that scene 13 years ago, that he would be alright?
Honestly, there's still too much time travel nonsense, but I prefer that as the scene's takeaway. It places more emphasis on the scene's emotional aspect.
I kinda wanna peek into the alternate universe where this playthrough missed all the optional Rinoa moments and never had her in the party.
It makes this whole romantic resolution very funny.
It makes this whole romantic resolution very funny.
- Location
- SV's Only Complete Persona Quest
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- She/Her
Wrong Channel Awesome reviewer~
Though it tells you how far online reviews have come when this review didn't end with Squall trying to kill Omi
- Location
- USA
I honestly believe this is the reason for Rinoa's entirely ludicrous sub-plot during the Garden vs Garden clash. Why does she want the ring at that specific moment? Why is she left hanging on the edge and must be rescued only by Squall? Why does the rest of the party go from professional, trained mercenaries to onlookers and cheerleaders for a teenage drama?
Because it's entirely possible for the player to have completely screwed over the romance up to now (leaving Rinoa out the party, making wrong music choices for the Garden Festival, etc.), which means the developers now have to force the effing thing through or the third act (i.e., Squall's single-minded obsession over Rinoa) won't work.
- Location
- Texas
SeeD now has probably the best chance to pivot their priorities. The Lunar Cry means they can easily re-focus more on monster hunting than government mercenaries, and instead of hunting down or fighting Sorceresses, finding and training them. Integrate them into a society that's already a little weirder than your average civilian to maximize the chance of finding their Knight that can then keep up with their strength through Junctioning, and wipe away the possibility of Ulimecia altogether.
What I'm saying is, the power of Magic Combat High School RomCom will be the true savior of the world.
What I'm saying is, the power of Magic Combat High School RomCom will be the true savior of the world.
RogueIce
Noctis Æternæ
- Location
- New Lunar Republic, Equestria
I'm pretty sure Omi will be much fairer and open minded regarding FF8's faults and wins than Spoony was.
Another thing that would work 'better' with a parallel timeline scheme and Ultinoa. Just make screwing up the romance lock in the bad timeline ending (sounds of gamer rage in the distance).
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I look forward to final fantasy 9.
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- SV's Only Complete Persona Quest
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- She/Her
I think it's telling how the thread's opinion on FF8 went from largely positive to increasingly mixed as the game went on. Kinda makes it a little sad to reread the earlier part of the review and surrounding comments
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I enjoyed the game when I played it, but I can't say that I understood what was going on. Also I played on a emulator which allowed me to speed up the game at will so grinding was no problem. In fact I refuse to play old games without such an emulator.
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Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
- Location
- AZ
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think Omicron hit the nail on the head when he noted that the GFs are used for the huge reveal about the orphanage and then the plotline is completely discarded afterwards with nary a peep about continuing to use the GFs.
It suddenly occurs to me that maybe this was intended to be a bait and switch: the GFs don't distort memories, time compression does. But since our hero squad all use GFs the cause and effect are mixed up. ...but if so, the game fails the actual bait and switch since the GF memory-loss theory is completely divorced from the events of the story. If it ever was intended, perhaps it was discarded during production.
It's not the only problem with the game (Omicron went off on Seifer), but it is a great avatar of FF8's issues. It wants to be a romance. It wants to be a game about child mercenaries. It wants to be a game about cycles of prejudice. It wants to be a time loop game. It wants to be the junction game. It wants to be the hidden lore game. FF8 gestures at a lot of ideas in mechanics and story alike, but like Zell unleashed upon a tray of hot dogs it bites off so, so, so much more than it can chew. FF games have a tendency to rush their conclusion thanks to the Square Enix Theory of Iterative Game Development (1. iterate far too much 2. PANIK) but FF8 I think is the one that most drops the ball on setting and themes, especially in the last third of the game.
And yet despite all the shit talking I've done, I'd say my opinion of FF8 has actually gone up a little bit over the course of the LP. I still don't like it but for one, I have a better appreciation for Squall's character writing than I did 20 years ago, which I would say is one thing FF8 absolutely knocked out of the park - Squall is a fantastically realized character.
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The weird thing is, we know Square back then could deliver a tightly plotted, logically connected story, even one involving time travel -- they did it with Chrono Trigger!
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Kuja
I'M A SQUIIIID
- Location
- AZ
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's because Chrono Trigger smartly offloaded all of the missteps onto the seq-
[user was shot to death by irate Chrono Cross fans for this post]
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- SV's Only Complete Persona Quest
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- She/Her
Big difference between FF8 and Chrono Trigger was that CT was about time travel from the very beginning, whereas you don't find out about time travel in FF8 till Disc 3, making CT feel far more natural about it
Parabola
Divided Loyalties Librarian
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What it is, is a children's card game game.
I mean... my opinion has always been "lots of good stuff, hidden by a lot of pretty terrible stuff". FF8 has a serviceable first-order optimization of "turn on Enc-Half/Enc-None as soon as you can, bull through fights with your summons, only turn encounters back on if you're specifically seeking to draw some new spells for your stash or need to level up a GF". Without even trying you'll keep your level low, the fights easy, and outpace them in short order thanks to the power of junctioning. Almost none of the missable guide-dang-it stuff matters. (Maybe the drawable GFs, but that's the 'you need to try to steal every fight for the one time it matters' problem Final Fantasy has long had.)
That first-order optimization runs into some problems in the back half of the game, but if you've been keeping your spells well stocked you can probably make it through since everything is still of relatively low levels but your junctions are making you very powerful by comparison.
It's just when you compare FF8 to other games in the series it comes up short, and the plot holes are enormous. (Here I'd contrast with Xenogears - yes, the famous 'storytelling via visual novel delivered by a character telling the story while sitting on a chair in the dark' bit of the last disc still tells a complete, mostly coherent story. They sacrificed making more dungeons instead.)
- Location
- Columbus, OH
So as I understand it in Japanese the word for "bullet" is "juudan" (じゅうだん ) or "dangan" (弾丸), but it's perfectly common to say "barreto" (バレット). Why? I dunno, Japanese plays fast and loose with European vowel sounds, and actually saying "bullet" doesn't work so well for them I guess. Anyway, Barret's name is properly "Barreto", or Bullet. Probably for the best that the translator changed it. Failing to translate "barreto" into "bullet" is something I've seen in other Japanese media, probably for the same reason that "judge" was mistranslated as "jersey" in FF7. Just lack of resources for the translation, again.
If this were a CAPCOM game there'd be an alternate ending where Ultimecia is the Wizard of OZ and NORG is the post-Shumi creature behind the curtain.
...
I want to try to parse through this nested time loop business real quick.
1. Ellone gains the power to create stable time loops, but thinks she can only look into the past, so she changes very little at first (what was the first thing she changed?).
2. Ellone realizes she can grant her power to others, and experiments with changing other people's feelings by showing them the past (what was changed by accident? It would have to be people close to her, I think. Perhaps there's a story where Ellone is about to be captured by Adel and she gives power to Laguna and that creates... whatever the next timeline is)
3. Ellone wants to find Squall, so she begins sending him visions of Laguna. Laguna attributes his successes to the fairies. Was Adel even defeated prior to this? Did Ultimecia exist at this point?
4. Squall is highly motivated to find Ellone, so in most timelines he probably finds her eventually, and begins working to solve whatever her problems are. I wonder if Ellone could still call Squall for help once junctioned to Adel?
5. At some point, Dr. Odine experiments on Ellone and begins development of his time machine. Now, whoever gets to use the time machine in the future also gets a vote. Maybe only a powerful sorceress can use it at full power before the development of SeeD Junctions?
6. Squall rescues Ellone from whatever, and in basically every post-Adel timeline, sorceresses are persecuted.
7. Artemesia, resentful of her treatment as a sorceress, spends her whole life working to get strong enough to use the time machine well enough to absorb the power of past sorceresses, making herself strong enough to defeat whatever future force normally prevents sorceresses from getting that powerful.
8. Artemsia, going full megalomaniac, loops her own power back into itself via Edea, becoming Ultimecia.
So, did Artemesia understand that she was dooming herself by looping her power back into itself? Maybe she did, but didn't take the threat seriously because by that point she was creating new nested timeloops every morning for breakfast.
Going back to step 3, this assumes the Squall is a SeeD. In the original timeline, he wouldn't be, so any help Squall might give to Laguna would be much more subtle - he couldn't take control and dominate fights. Also, is Squall somehow protected from getting Laguna killed early on and removing himself from the timeline?
Heck, did Squall even exist at first, or did Ellone create him by wishing for a brother-knight to rescue her from Adel?
...I can't really blame Ultimecia for screwing this up, I sure as heck can't follow it. If you rewrote this story from Ellone's perspective I suspect it would be a little too much like Steins;Gate but without the protagonist being able to remember much from one loop to the next.
Also with Rinoa being Squall's dad's crush's daughter, you'd think they were brought together via destiny-by-time-magic, but I don't see it.
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
I was offline for a while so allow me to repeat what I said on Discord; it's amazing how FF8 has an ending that is simultaneously complete ass and amazing.
Ultimecia sucks. Xande-tier letdown, somehow more of a disappointing villain than Adel, the woman with literally three lines of dialogue. The reason people hold a torch for Ultimecia-as-bad-future-Rinoa is that it's the only way with the building blocks the story gives you to make Ultimecia anything instead of nothing.
But man that final FMV. I've seen most of the bits with Squall wandering the wasteland of Time Kompression before and it was pretty good but the stuff wrapping up Laguna's story and then the camcorder segments of the victory party at Balamb during the credits was cute as fuck. I honestly think it's a pretty cool and sweet twist on when Laguna said "yeah just let your heart be your guiding key lmao" that even though Squall did take steps and try to change he couldn't just make the final Will save and find his way to Rinoa - but he tried, he got part of the way there, and he lasted long enough for Rinoa to realise something was wrong and come the rest of the way to him, because everything that came before that moment of weakness had still managed to prove to her how much he loved her. It gives Rinoa the final heroic moment and I really liked it.
Ultimecia sucks. Xande-tier letdown, somehow more of a disappointing villain than Adel, the woman with literally three lines of dialogue. The reason people hold a torch for Ultimecia-as-bad-future-Rinoa is that it's the only way with the building blocks the story gives you to make Ultimecia anything instead of nothing.
But man that final FMV. I've seen most of the bits with Squall wandering the wasteland of Time Kompression before and it was pretty good but the stuff wrapping up Laguna's story and then the camcorder segments of the victory party at Balamb during the credits was cute as fuck. I honestly think it's a pretty cool and sweet twist on when Laguna said "yeah just let your heart be your guiding key lmao" that even though Squall did take steps and try to change he couldn't just make the final Will save and find his way to Rinoa - but he tried, he got part of the way there, and he lasted long enough for Rinoa to realise something was wrong and come the rest of the way to him, because everything that came before that moment of weakness had still managed to prove to her how much he loved her. It gives Rinoa the final heroic moment and I really liked it.